Rose Petals Nursery lists 'Bloomfield Abundance' in their inventory, and it's currently in stock. And among the pics of 'Spray Cecile Brunner' you'll find some pics of what Fred Boutin thinks is the real thing on the HelpMeFind page for 'Bloomfield Abundance'.

:-)

~Christopher

Yay! So glad it is in commerce. And, of course I had not noticed that Jeri and Kim Rupert had posted pictures of the true rose on the BA page on HMF. It's funny - now all of the pics on the first page of photos of BA are the newly discovered one, and all of the pics on all of the prior pages (except for a few pics of illustrations or old photos of the true one) are of Cecile Brunner! It is actually good, because you can see how the rose Fred Boutin re-discovered does NOT look like Cecile Brunner, but DOES look like the pictures and illustrations of the original 'Bloomfield Abundance' from the 1920s.

Jackie

Yes, and also note how the foliage has the Wichurana-look one would expect of the real 'Bloomfield Abundance', considering its ancestry.

:-)

~Christopher

I just uploaded 4 new pics from the FSC garden of Fred's find, to the 'Bloomfield Abundance' entry in helpmefind.com. Sorry I don't have full-size bush photos yet, since our plants are still rather small.

Here you go . . .

This is not a truly mature plant, but it is a good 3 years old. Maybe 4.

Best I can do for you at the moment. :-)

While I was looking at the BA page on HMF, I noticed that someone has posted a picture from the book: "Roses at the Cape of Good Hope". A PHOTOGRAPH, presumably taken near the publishing date of 1988! If you look, you will see that it resembles some of the pics Jeri has posted on HMF of the presumably true BA, especially the buds and the fully open flowers, and the sometimes darker color. It occurred to me that I own that book. I found it, and sure enough, the photo looks like Fred Boutin's find. My point is that that BA rose had grown in South Africa for generations (accd to the book) under that name. Perhaps it still exists somewhere there? Anyone know any rosarians in SA? Could not DNA be done between that rose with historic provenance, and Fred's rose? Just a thought, since this picture is almost 70 years more modern than the other photo which exists of this rose.

The text talking about BA in the book is muddled, unfortunately. It reports the correct date, hybridizer, and parents, for BA, but then in a different place says it is a type of Cecile Brunner. No doubt the Cecile Brunner fake BAs in commerce and literature caused the confusion.

Any thoughts?

Jackie

No. I think you've got it right. The confusion between Spray Cecile Brunner and Bloomfield Abundance is, sadly, of long-standing.

Myself, I have no contacts in South Africa ... though, Jackie, I have that book myself, and did not think to look there. I will, though.

When I photographed B.A. this spring in the Sacramento Cemetery, the blooms were all fading. The photo of a bloom is one I had taken last October -- but the plant is really making strides.

I have a vigorous Spray Cecile Brunner my relatives had had for 60+ years. Their plant came as a cutting from a lady from Louisiana whose family had grown it forever.

I didn't know what it was, but Kim identified it for me. The most striking thing about it, besides its vigor & blooming on huge candelabras are the bracts on the long bloom canes. I referred to them as "fused leaves" & that's what they often look like--palmate leaves. Every plant I've seen from this clone has them & all cuttings do, too.

Someone ought to send a plant to U Penn's Morris Arboretum to test it for hardiness. Turns out that Bloomfield Farm, where 'Bloomfield Abundance' was bred, is now part of Morris Arboretum. And, yes, they have a rose garden, though I dare not hope they already have 'Bloomfield Abundance' or any other historic roses. They do have a 'what's blooming?' section on their web site, so I do know they have Knockout roses... Sigh.

I don't suppose anyone reading this thread lives in- or plans to visit- Philadelphia?

Virginia

Yes, I agree with Kim - your rose is a Cecile Brunner. What we are talking about is a rose called Bloomfield Abundance which was somehow confused with what is probably Spray Cecile Brunner almost 100 years ago. For decades nurseries have been selling Spray Cecile Brunner under the name Bloomfield Abundance, and loudly denying (at least in the UK) that it was a Cecile Brunner at all - insisted it was a completely different rose. (What I find funny is that it was so obviously a Cecile Brunner - the situation reminded me of when scientists were insisting that Panda Bears were not bears at all, but were some sort of raccoon. Only when the DNA research came back that they were bears did the scientists admit it.) Well, DNA research was done, and it, of course, turned out to be a Cecile Brunner.

Meanwhile, the real 'Bloomfield Abundance' was lost as far as anyone knew (perhaps it has survived in South Africa, however - see above re the 1988 picture in a book). Fred Boutin has found what may be the original, true Bloomfield Abundance, which is so exciting. Jeri is growing it, and has kindly put pictures of it here and on HMF.

Jackie

Oops - multiple simultaneous posts! My comments above were directed at bluegirl.

Kim, those pictures are astounding! I may need to get BA. Blooms are huge and gorgeous! What do you think of the picture of BA in 1988 in the book "Roses at the Cape of Good Hope"? If you don't have the book, the pic is posted on HMF on the BA pages.

Jackie

Well, the confusion went both ways... I was just reading something from the 1965 'Royal New Zealand Institute of Horticulture Journal' wherein someone noted that 'Bloomfield Abundance' was being sold as 'Cecile Brunner' in at least one part of NZ...

Virginia

The same thing happened here in Australia. I ended up with numerous spray C.Bs until I finally got CB herself. Even now I see the wrong plant being sold.

It is my understanding that the DNA tests resulted in the determination that there are 3 types of Cecile Brunner, all of which are sports of each other. One is the bush, one is the Spray version (which is what the UK Bloomfield Abundance turned out to be), and one is the huge climber. Evidently the spray version of CB was mixed up with the real 'Bloomfield Abundance' a LONG time ago (from the tales of one British nurseryman, who insisted that his father grew the BA they have in the UK (the one that is really spray CB), I wonder if the original plant of BA which was shipped from the US to England around 1920 was a mislabeled and was really spray Cecile Brunner instead of BA - they do seem to have been growing the wrong BA over there from the very beginning.

In 1965 the "Bloomfield Abundance" which "was being sold as 'Cecile Brunner' was not the original BA at all, it was spray CB, so I can see why it was being sold as CB - it walked like a duck, it quacked like a duck, so someone decided it was a duck! (and they were correct, or almost).

Jackie

Hi Jackie, did you notice how similar the Bloomfield Abundance rose in the photo uploaded by Linda Maclean to HMF in Nov. 2009 from the American Rose Annual (1926) is to the recent photos uploaded by Kim Rupert and M Manners? I'm amazed that the ARS had such high quality colour photos available in 1926 ... That rose is so clearly not a version of Cecile Brunner ...

Tricia

Ah, so you think the NZ writer meant that 'Spray CB' was being sold as 'Mlle Cecile Brunner', rather than that 'Bloomfield Abundance' was being sold as ''Mlle CB'?

'Bloomfield Abundance' and 'Spray CB' are (or were) different roses, but perhaps he also had them muddled... here's the quote:

Concerning Rosa 'Cecile Brunner' some nurseries still list this rose though it is more difficult to obtain through the trade than a few years ago. However there is one point to watch. Some nurseries are supplying Rosa 'Bloomfield Abundance' in error. In the Waikato area I noted plants of R. 'Bloomfield Abundance' with nursery labels 'Cecile Brunner'. A few authorities say R. 'Bloomfield Abundance' is a sport of R. 'Cecile Brunner' but ' Modern Roses 6' and the Royal National Rose Society's latest edition of 'Roses — a Selected List of Varieties' consider it to be a separate cultivar in its own right.

I did rather blithely assume he knew the difference between 'BA' and 'Spray CB', but why should he if they were already confused in commerce?

I'm confused too, now...

Virginia

Tricia, I'd be surprised if that photo wasn't tinted (colorized). You can see that the same photo was uploaded to HMF in (what I assume is) the original monochrome from Capt Thomas' 1920 book. 'The Practical Book of Outdoor Rose Growing':

http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=21.45620

For comparison, here's the color version from the 1926 American Rose Annual with credit to the 1920 book:

http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=21.132884

Virginia

The photo was colorized. The original was black and white. I'm not sure what to think of the Cape of Good Hope photo on HMF. It doesn't look like the bud, bloom nor "cluster" form of what I see in my back yard, from Fred, through Jeri.

Jackie, I'd say there are at least 4 types of 'Cecile Brunner' and possible some that are in-between types. If I'm not mistaken, there's a once-blooming climber, and a climber that repeats, the spray shape, and a shrub form. Within those categories there are probably clones of varying degrees of vigor, and with differences in mature sizes.

I'm particularly intrigued by bluegirl's observation about the characteristic fused-leaf appearance to the foliage of the spray form. She's quite right... I noticed it (once she alerted me to look for it) in several photos of "Not Bloomfield Abundance". I wonder if those leaf malformations occur in any of the other Cecile Brunner sports? I have the non-repeating climber, and the leaves don't look like her plant's...

At this distance, I would not feel comfortable saying who did- or did not- sell the original 'Bloomfield Abundance'. Certainly, its earliest press stressed the similarity to 'Cecile Brunner'; from here that looks like a mistake that quickly caused the two roses to become confused in commerce, but it may have been a savvy marketing decision back in 1920.

Virginia

No. I am not growing B.A. I collected budwood for Kim Rupert, but I do not myself have it. My photos were taken in the Sacramento Historic City Cemetery in Oct. 2014 and April 2015.

Many thanks Virginia ... I should have realised that a 1926 photo wouldn't have been a colour photo ... AND I should have looked more closely to read the credit under the photo! So, really, we have no idea what colour pink the original BA was - and here I was thinking it was absolutely gorgeous.

Tricia

That's what struck me, Virginia .

I'm not at all familiar with BA & only know Cecile from the plants I have--one modest shrub form from ARE & the Spray Cecile my relatives have grown. The bracts on the Spray form, now that I know what it is, are so obvious. If they're characteristic of other Spray Cecile clones it seems like they would help as a diagnostic for it.

Or does the real BA have them too? Lovely bloom.

Bluegirl -- You might want to look at THIS image (photographed in the Sacramento City Cemetery):

http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=21.257092

Tricia, the photo tinting was done under the supervision of the breeder (and at his expense), so it probably was a reasonably close match. Probably closer than actual color photos would be for quite some time. Early references describe 'Bloomfield Abundance' as salmon-pink. The descriptions say the flowers are similar to 'Mlle Cecile Brunner', but larger and more richly colored.

The flowers that Kim posted photos of are certainly good matches for the early descriptions; maybe a bit smaller and paler than those in the 1920 photo, but I'd expect some such variations from an immature plant in a different climate with intense UV radiation...

I'd be interested in hearing how a plant from the cemetery rose in Sacramento fares if grown closer to its home turf. Is it indeed mildew-proof and hardier than 'Cecile' in a Northeastern garden?

Virginia

Oh, I see the bracts there on that BA photo. At least the simple ones that look like single leaflets. Understanding now how SCB & BA might be confused. Thanks Jeri.

There is a bush shot of it in my Roses of the World in Color '47. I don't know if it was included in the '36 Edition.

I have seen that photo -- both tinted and in BW. The FIRST bush photo I took of the plant in the Sacramento City Cemetery bore a close resemblance to it. (October, 2014)

We have many very old cemeteries here and it's a shame that EVERY plant has been dug out. I often wonder what uses to grow there. Now the only plants there are Hostas.

As for the 4th type of CB -- the everblooming climber -- it's my understanding that that was just regular 'Spray Cecile Brunner' relabeled? I never bought one to be sure of that, but that was the tale. I've visited many of the gardens Gwen Fagen designed and planted (with Gwen as tour leader), and don't recall ever seeing anything labeled BA there. Interesting. if/when I get back to Cape Town, I'll have to look for it. Finally, it has always rather surprised me that so many in the UK claimed that SCB was BA, since Jack Harkness, in his book "Roses" (1978), observed that the sport repeated numerous times in their growing fields, from regular CB, and it was obvious to him that it was, indeed a sport! That observation seems to have been ignored elsewhere.

Altorama -- Some of the roses (and other plants) in the Sacramento Historic Cemetery survived the intervening century and a half -- but as families moved away (or died out) no one was left to tend the plots in the Garden Cemetery. By the beginning of the 90's, the place was a disaster.

Dedicated plant people re-planted this cemetery, with roses collected across California -- Thank Fred Boutin, for one . . . So, today, there is a Historic Rose Garden, but there are other gardens there, as well. Native Plants, Perennials . . . And a few roses DID survive from the 1860's -- they call them "Legacy Plants."

I am particularly fond of "Elisabeth's China." (Elisabeth Stober, born in Germany, died in Sacramento in the 1880's. Her rose has been cut to the ground multiple times, but it yet survives:

Any city could do this -- with enough dedication and work.

Malcolm, there was a very old Cl. Cecile Brunner in the "woods" at The Huntington no one knew about for years. Clair Martin led us back to it where it formed a room, having grown into the trees and back to the soil, where it rooted, then took off into the trees again. You literally walked in to the plant. We propagated it and sold it at many plant sales. It received only rain and any ground water available as it wasn't in a developed area, there were no sprinklers there. That plant wasn't Spray Cecile. It was a huge climber and it flowered almost any time I was out there.

Kim -- The Cl. Cecile Brunner we had was a generous repeat-bloomer. Heaviest in the spring, lightest in mid-summer, but it repeated so faithfully, I was surprised to learn that most did not.

For anyone who hasn't had an opportunity to see it, here is the (tinted) photo of 'Bloomfield Abundance' from "Roses Of The World In Color" (McFarland, 1936) -- a great, very useful book, btw.

Re South African rosarians. Did a bit of Googling and the best lead I could come up with was

Kim van Niekerk

kim at bedfordproperties dot com dot za

She or he is listed on the South African Tourism page as the contact person for enquiries about the Bedford Rosarium, Eastern Cape, South Africa, which specialises in old roses. They were supposed to be getting around 2000 varieties; it was only started in 2011, and I haven't found much info about how it's going. Anyway, perhaps this person might be knowledgeable, or have contacts with others who might be familiar with (their/real?) Bloomfield Abundance..

I see there's also a Facebook page: 'SA Rosarium', which has what may be more up to date contact details. The website seems to be very new with very little information on it as yet.

It's official name is the South African Rosarium. It sounds like a great project, and they're doing it all organically. They were originally inspired by the book by Gwen Fagan that Jackie and Jeri mention, to form the Heritage Rose Society there, and it seems either she (Gwen - who would be around 90 now) and/or a family member designed the garden. Wendy Kroon and Barbara Long are past and present Chairpersons respectively of the Society, I think.

(Edit: heritageroses dot sa at gmail dot com also Facebook page: 'Heritage Rose Society of South Africa')

Oh, Kim is a lady, by the way - I've seen photos..

:¬)

As it turns out, I have a cousin who regularly travels to SA, has written a couple of novels that include rose and gardening references. Maybe if we know exactly what we want photos of and where to find it, I could ask and see if he was interested in taking the photos for us?