Well, I just squish together fairly lean minced beef with salt and pepper, garlic granules, paprika and a splash of red wine. No pressing or fussing on the griddle pan. We like them so they're fine by me.

Not knowing what mix of cuts you use, my guess would be fat. I don' t grind my own burgers, but every recommendation I've seen and every good restaurant burger I've had does not skimp on the fat.

What Gooster said. Think of a well marbled cut for roastbeef. The patty should be "marbled". If there's not enough fat in the cut you buy, add some fat when you're grinding it. Or get some very fatty cut from the butcher to add to the leaner cuts.

Yes, restaurants do get better beef. They buy more and they can demand better beef.

Don't be surprised, theirs taste better ------ lots of fat + MSG!

If you are the owner of a restaurant, wouldn't you add MSG + fat? It is not against the law.

MSG + fat = more business.

Next time, get better beef, and add MSG + fat, and you will not want to buy restaurant hamburgers anymore.

dcarch

Have you ever watched America's Test Kitchen or Cook's Country when they've done their numerous takes on different types of burgers? I've tried a few of the ideas and have improved the humble burger, including adding a pinch of baking soda, lose-packed meat for the patties, and using your knuckle to place a dimple in the middle of the burger before cooking them. If you are trying to find the right "science" you might take a look at their findings for ideas. Check out a copy of "The Complete America's Test Kitchen TV Show Cookbook" from the library for most of the recipes and information.

I personally liked the "Pub-Style Burger" (http://www.recipething.com/recipes/show/36093-juicy-pub-style-burgers) more than the "Well-Done Hamburgers on a Charcoal Grill" recipe (http://www.jasminenjason.com/recipes/Main%20Courses/Beef/Well-Done%20Hamburgers%20on%20a%20C...pdf). They also have the "Best Old-Fashioned Burger" (video: http://news.yahoo.com/video/americas-test-kitchen-best-burgers-172100193.html). I don't like adding bread (we're gluten-free and gluten-free bread works differently) and milk to ground beef, but that's what's in the "Well-Done Hamburgers on a Charcoal Grill" recipe, and it's a favorite of many people.

I purchase sirloin steak tips and grind it in a food processor (according to their recipe) for the "Pub-Style Beef Burger" recipe.

If you ever want to try making grilled turkey burgers, I recommend the recipe from America's Test Kitchen. http://www.food.com/recipe/juicy-grilled-turkey-burger-americas-test-kitchen-509752

-Grainlady

Not that the Whopper is my ideal (I'm an In-N-Out person), but here's Kenji's tips. Maybe something in there for you.

I don’t grind my own, but do buy from a good meat market. 80/20 makes the juiciest burgers, because of all the fat ... almost too much. I add Spicy Montreal Steak Seasoning. That’s it. Hand form and very lightly press with my mom’s old wooden hamburger press. Cooked on a charcoal grill ... perfectly delicious every time!

Hamburgers need more salt than you'd think. I don't do the MSG, but I do salt. I like a better done burger (med-well, on the well side) and refuse all hockey pucks, so they have to be right. Those who want less done burgers here have to grill their own, but they like the burgers I've prepared. :) I've ground my own but it's no better than my butcher's grind. Since it's done in the store, and bought only if it looks good in the case, I don't have the same concerns about quality and pervasive bacteria. I do prefer bison, however, for the flavor. It's pretty lean, too.

There is a significant texture difference between a pressed patty and a gently hand formed one, and the latter definitely makes the meat easier to savor, but I don't find an actual flavor difference between a preformed patty from Trader Joe's (which have occasionally crossed my threshhold) and hand formed from similar beef (which ditto). The difference is in texture, and, to a certain extent, moisture (less room between bits of meat forces steam out, maybe? While loosely gathered allows it to stay inside?). I think our shapes are similar--mine are more flying saucer than puck--I just lightly press a scoopful between my (gloved) hands, kind of like making uncompacted mudpies, and I do press my thumb in the top, though the flying saucer shape doesn't really result in cupping without it.

Dcarch is right about the restaurants. Fat carries flavor, and MSG is called "flavor enhancer" for a reason. The biggest flavor difference you'll find, however is in the cut(s) you're using. Just as there was the fillet thread that talked about lack of flavor in the tenderloin (or what you might call "delicate flavor"), which is too tender for burgers, skirt steak has a ton of flavor and is too tough for burgers. Whenever I see chefs on TV talking about their burger mix, they're usually grinding together several different parts (or even different meats, but that's more into meatball as a burger territory). One is usually for flavor, one for texture and one for fat content, or something like that. If you're going to do a single cut, sirloin is a good choice.

Cool tips. I'm going to try making burgers again tonight.

Instead of MSG, I add just a wee bit of tamari and lemon pepper. I do not grind my own, but for burgers, definitely prefer beef that is 80/20 fat. Actually, when I am feeling a bit flush with cash or just want to splurge, I really, really bison for burgers. It works for us.

Ground short ribs. I add a touch of onion powder, mustard powder, garlic powder and mushroom powder for extra umami. I add salt and crusty fresh ground black pepper to the outside. Toss it on the charcoal grill for about 15minutes at around 350F. Slide into a home made potato roll with tomatoes, onions and lettuce! A touch of ketchup and happy times ensue.

Agree with the others on the 80/20 fat, chuck works great.

As a So Cal native, burgers were always grilled, (or barbecued, as we called it) but since I got my Bluestar with griddle, I've found "flat top" burgers can rival the best BBQd!

I like to use just salt and pepper and maybe a dash of soy sauce, and a bit of oregano. (My Mom was Greek). I form loosely shaped balls, 1/4 to 1/3 lb. ea. and place on a lightly oiled, (peanut oil is my go to) hot griddle, or cast iron skillet. Smash and flatten the ball with your spatula once, and leave alone for a couple minutes. Turn once, finding a new hot spot and in a couple minutes more you are done, pull it off and place on lightly buttered toasted bun with lettuce, tomato, red onion, dill pickle slices, and my "secret sauce" a variation of 1000 island, (which I may share someday ;)

While grilled have that great smokey charcoal taste, lots of the fat, (flavor) drips through the grates, which can leave them sometimes dry. On the other hand, griddled burgers stay moist, but still have a crusty outside and retain that short order '50s diner taste :)

We live in a relatively small town and have limited resources so what I've settled on is using only 80/20 ground chuck loosely formed into 1/3 pound patties and cooked medium rare on the Weber (gas).

Outside of having quality beef, the biggest improvement you can easily make is The Bun. I'm surprised that no one has mentioned buns. But maybe most of you have access to independent bakeries that have great products. I don't--only grocery store bakeries with so-so buns which I refuse to eat. (If I'm going to indulge in carbs, I want great-tasting carbs!) So I always make my own. After searching for and testing quite a few recipes over 2-3 years the King Arthur Beautiful Buns recipe was the hands down winner. (I reduce the am't of sugar called for in the recipe because the buns seemed a little too sweet if you use the full 1/4 cup of sugar called for.) It's a fast, easy recipe. Some day I intend to make the dough a day or two ahead of time and refrigerate to test if that improves the flavor significantly. But, as is, the recipe makes for a really good bun that goes a long ways in improving burgers and sloppy joes.

Beautiful Burger Buns

Just found a nice tip about substituting salt with Chinese oyster sauce for better texture. The recommended ratio is 40% fat in the meat.

John Torode's beef burgers
'For a great burger, try to use mince with 40 per cent fat, which keeps the meat moist while cooking, and use Chinese oyster sauce instead of salt, which makes the mixture dry and crumbly. At my London restaurant, Smiths of Smithfield, we toast the buns and spread them with mayonnaise, not butter.'

Serves 8

Mix together 1.5kg fatty minced beef, 2 sliced red onions and a handful of chopped flat-leaf parsley. Add 2tbsp oyster sauce, 2tbsp of tomato ketchup and an egg yolk. Knead into large balls and chill for a good hour.

Before grilling, top with a piece of grilled bacon and a slice of good Cheddar. Grill over a hot barbecue or on a griddle - a good 15 minutes if you want them well done.

It's from an article: Seven Top Chefs Reveal Their Secret Hamburger Recipe:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/food/article-1197009/The-perfect-burger-experts-Seven-chefs-reveal-secret-hamburger-recipes.html

ci_lantro-

I happen to be a member at King Arthur's "Baking Circle" when Moomie (Ellen - [http://www.dillsalittlegoatfarm.com/recipes.htm) posted her recipe for the Beautiful Burger Buns recipe November 10, 2001 (originally they were just entitled Hamburger Buns, but quickly became Moomie's Big Beautiful [Burger] Buns) and how they caught on like a Kansas prairie fire (or Okalahoma prairie fire, because that's where Ellen is from) and how quickly the recipe was shared and found everywhere on the Internet.

There were any number of adaptations and add-in ingredients, herb blends (Fox Point from Penzy's is a favorite - especially when using this recipe for small sandwich or tea buns, wholegrain flour, etc. (Ellen has a number of ideas at the link above). You can also shape the dough into a loaf, let rise, and bake at 350°F for 35-minutes.

The reason for a lot of sugar in burger buns is to aid in browning. Commercial buns that are that rich dark brown have any number of sweeteners in the dough to achieve the dark color. I'd suggest you use a light honey as a sweetener, instead of sugar, in order to reduce the sweetness and still get the browning. Back when I made this recipe I used 3 T. of agave nectar, which also helped keep them moist longer, as well as aid in the color of the crust.

-Grainlady

When I make Moomie's buns I reduce the sugar to 1 tablespoon and the yeast to 2 1/2 teaspoons. I'd rather lighter color buns than so much sugar.

While I have not tried at home, DH rides the bus with one of the health inspectors. The health inspector passed on word that one restaurant that supposedly has great burgers puts them on the griddle and then covers with a can (say a 28 oz tomato can), thus keeping more of the juice in the burger.

Grainlady--Thank you for the tips & the background on the Beautiful Bun recipe.

>>...supposedly has great burgers puts them on the griddle and then covers with a can (say a 28 oz tomato can), thus keeping more of the juice in the burger.>>

Please DON'T do this. A can heated up too high will explode! Better to be safe than sorry.

Good beef needs two things: salt and fat. No MSG necessary. WHEN you salt is important, however.

Always pre-salt your beef at least 45 min in advance. An hour is better. The thicker the cut or mix, the longer it should sit in the frig. I usually mix mine 24 hrs in advance.

20% fat is good, 25% is used by several very famed burger chefs around here. I've had a 35% fat burger and felt that was overdoing it. I like fat, if I see crispy pork fat or crisp edges of beef fat I'm all over it, but a burger over 30% is too greasy even for me.

I've never had much interest in grass-fed beef, but that's my personal taste. I do buy organic beef, and for homemade burgers, mix it 50-50 with ground bison. There is a brand of ground bison that is very soft in texture and tangy in flavor, sold at our local market. We tried it by itself and didn't care for it. But mixing it with the regular ground organic beef made great burgers.

The best restaurant burgers we've had were a mix of 50% chuck, 30% short rib, and 20% either tongue, skirt, or flank. Great flavor and texture.

One chef says for every pound of beef he adds 25% fat - but not beef fat. He grinds in pork fat. That's quite clever, pork fat has a much lower melting point so you can have a rare/medium-rare burger where the fat is soft and melting, not still hard.

That's one of the reasons I don't approve of the current craze for Wagyu burgers around the SF Bay Area. Medium is the only way I'll accept it. Rare is impossible with Wagyu in a grind, the fat doesn't melt and it's unpleasant. Also, Wagyu is very bland in my opinion - beef for people that don't eat a lot of it.

I use oyster sauce but no ketchup or egg. Just lots of cracked black pepper and minced garlic. Dark soy (not black or double dark, those contain molasses) also works quite nicely.

Okay, John, with all these suggestions from everyone you've now got a lot of experimenting to do! Let us know what works best for you.

I like fat, but I don't have a habit of cooking or eating fat. I believe you can make an extraordinary hamburger using 100% lean beef.

I don't get the idea of making huge burgers that you can't eat with your mouth, that you have to use your fork and knife.

When you bite into a burger, the first thing that touches your palate is the bun, then the pickles, then the tomato, lettuce, cheese, if you add cheese, and finally the meat.

The burger is not perfect unless everything goes into it is perfect.

dcarch

Ditto. I think they were talking about using it instead of a dome/"hamburger cover"/basting cover. Yes, they actually sell them labelled "hamburger cover"! I was thinking that a can was clever because it probably takes up less space.

The perfect hamburger...?

Is still walking around on 4 legs. Lol... Sorry, couldn't resist!

Yeh, I assumed the hamburger cover was an empty can to use as a loose cover to retain the steam. A restaurant wouldn't use a filled can because, for one reason, they prolly already have much easier to manage cast iron steak weights next to their grill/ griddle.

Wrong, rgreen, no legs. Ground beef. Unless you're like dcarch who prefers it with two legs... Lean beef.

foodonastump... Fish? Snake? Lol... just playing. Since 'perfect' (especially as it relates to food) is so subjective, I thought it proper to provide the vegetarian perspective. ...and now, back to your regularly scheduled forum...

I could have written john liu's original post. We've been through all the trial and errors since grinding our own. Years ago our country road-side butcher semi-retired and his son took over. That summer we no longer could get it ground fresh at the counter. Or NY strip cut just the thickness we wanted. The perfect sausage suddenly had so much salt it was not edible.

We grind our own now. Make our own sausage.

One memorable failure, with the grill the perfect temp, the burgers went on. Off to get the buns to toast, came back and the burgers were gone. They had melted into the coals through the grill grates. Too lean and too much added fat. (duck fat)

I ground last night for tonights 'great American burger'. Just beef chuck ribs. Only half the mix put through twice. And only pepper. A decent grill burger. For a flat griddle mix we add duck fat or butter, not much. I prefer a hot well seasoned griddle. Both methods get cooked to med-rare on the rare side before flipping, then just a minute on the second side. Only then do i add a bit of salt, a splash of worcestershire and cover for that last minute. A stainless bowl that i drilled a hole and added a wooden knob. Piece of foil for the grill method.

Still trying to make that perfect burger i had in Memphis years ago. : )

Getting close. Much better than any burger we have had out recently.

Had a bison burger at Bareburger near NYU last week. Good but not on the list of top ten.

Don't care much for rare anymore. Med-rare on the rare side, pink. Raw ground beef does not have much flavor.

"-----Had a bison burger at Bareburger near NYU last week. Good but not on the list of top ten.----"

Ted Turner has over 50,000 bisons. I went to his midtown restaurant and had a bison burger. It's OK.

dcarch

His Montana Grill? Not had that. I've been endlessly disappointed all over town...except for the basic always good ShakeShack.

My burgers last night were a total fail. I did have some distractions tending the yard. Weather perfect. Used gathered twigs and had a good wood fire going...maybe the fire was too hot? Anywho, i must have been too confident. Rare when i flipped but they fell apart immediately. As if headed for a chili or pasta sauce. Strange. But still tasty. Not at all the best. I have much more control on the stove inside on a flat griddle.

I had a Bison Burger (just to say I did) at the Montana Grill in Boulder, CO a few weeks ago. I was pretty good.

I bought some pre-formed thick beef patties with blue cheese. It must have been the way I cooked them, it was so dry I couldn't swallow easily.

I think this is another time when taste is subjective, not objective. I like my grass fed beef, I add some salt, pepper and olive oil to the ground beef because it really is too lean to make a burger with the texture that most people like. I like the patties more thin, because I don't want my burger an inch thick, the outside is too done before the middle is warm. I really like the condiments as well as I like the meat. Homemade buns are required, and I like mine grilled or toasted on the hot cast iron. No cheese on mine, but everyone else seems to require it. The perfect burger for me would be rare, about 1/2 inch thick, not too crunchy on the exterior, on a toasted homemade bun with mayo, a slice of homegrown tomato, some of Grandma's sweet relish, a couple leaves of lettuce from the garden and a thin slice of sweet onion. Others would differ and that's fine too.

We had a local dentist that raised buffalo and every year he would host a "Buffalo BBQ", with buffalo burgers and sloppy joes, which back then were called BBQ sandwiches. It was OK. As a result Dad decided to try to raise buffalo. We found them near-sighted and bad tempered and hard to keep fenced. We tried "beefalo" which was a cross of beef and buffalo. Still bad tempered and hard to keep contained, just smaller. We went back to Herefords, LOL. Back then you could not just buy bison/buffalo meat, it was a specialty and hard to find. Now I can buy it at the local Meijer. Those farmers must have better fences than I do! So, be sure to appreciate that bison burger...

Here you go, rgreen, next year's burger:

Annie

Lol... Annie... you have a definite mean streak! :-P I bet if I name him you'd still eat him! :-(( ;-) Buford. Buford the Hereford.

I've been trying the "squash into patty" technique. I like the pleasingly random shapes, sort of like improvisational art. I think it makes the meat a little more compressed than I am aiming for, but my hand may be too heavy.

Which exactly is "squash"? If you put your measure of meat on the palm of one hand, and cover it with your other hand at 90° to the first, then just kind of bring them together, lightly, until the meat is a disc rather than a lump, it should be just compacted enough to stay together, without being completely compressed.

Annie, cute burger!

Loved Annie's photo, but my first thought was "VEAL!" My motto is, "I brake for veal chops", LOL. They are incredibly rare in Northern CA, it's so discouraging. And the beef sucks, at least to this former Midwesterner.

>>Yeh, I assumed the hamburger cover was an empty can to use as a loose cover to retain the steam. A restaurant wouldn't use a filled can>>

I learned never to make assumptions about what people think when they read something. I once worked with a friend who loved to cook but said her sister had never had any interest in learning. When the sister got married she finally thought she should start cooking, so she began with something easy - pancakes.

Yes, her sister actually did read the recipe that said "add two eggs" and threw in the eggs, without breaking them first!

plllog, yeah, he's cute but already a pain, I chased him about 5 miles through a swamp when he was about 2 days old and escaped. I was not able to find him and was sure he was coyote food and then he just came back home to his Mama, who'd been crying for two days for him. Little stinker.

jakkom, when I found that the little devil had returned of his own volition, my first reaction was a happy dance. My second reaction was that if he kept this up, he'd be dinner pretty darned soon, LOL. I did have to smile about the eggs, shell and all. I guess it's one way to get your calcium!

rgreen, we've long had "name the beef" contests on the Cooking Forum each year. I've had "Chuck" and "Stew", I've had "Tom Shanks" and "Flank Sinatra", and last year we went the musical direction and had "Fuzzy Osbourne". I've named them after my grandkids, "Mookayla" and "David Cowser". I try to always remind them that these creatures are dinner, not pets, and that our job is to give them the very best life we can give them, care for them diligently so they are never hungry or thirsty or without shelter. And I'm not all that mean, because when "Flash" there was missing, I spent two sleepless nights sitting on the couch, waiting for the sun to rise so I could go back out and look for him, the prodigal calf.

John, I must use the same technique, because my burgers are never round, they are oddly shaped, like the continent of Africa or an artichoke, or something.

Annie

I meant the technique where you place a plop of loose meat on the hot pan and "squash" it into a freeform patty with your spatula. I've seen it recommended here and in such august pages as the NYT Food section. My results are good but not perfect.

Basically I'm after a hamburger that is dark and crusty on the outside, pink-red on the inside, with a loose, chunky consistency. I don't want to have to tug at my burger like a hyena, or gnaw a burger that is dense like particle board, or face down a gray puck.

I'm also looking for an easy technique, no blowtorch or nuclear-powered flat top needed.

The desired flavor is beef, fat, crust, and salt. I'm done with putting overt "other" tastes in my burgers.

The idea of eating less meat is nice, and I do find the trend toward half pound burgers kind of gross, but thick burgers may be the only way to get the crusty exterior / reddish interior, without the megaton flat top.

Oh! Well, every short order cook I know personally or have seen on TV says to never squash the meat on the heat because you're just pressing out the juiciness and making it dry and hard. If your results with that technique are good I dare guess that it's in spite of the technique, rather than because of it. Perhaps the trick is to squash really really fast before any of the liquids are released.

Give my patticake method a try for the loose chunky consistency. It works for me. :) The trick is the "gently" because you're really just shaping, not squeezing or compressing. That's the real secret. Don't press, no matter what method you're using.

For the dark crusty outside, you shouldn't need to nuke them! Are you using black cast iron? The dark will help a lot with the crusty. You don't need (and should try!) nuclear with the cast iron because overheating it will make it brittle or something (Dcarch will know exactly, I'm sure). OTOH, if you want a shortcut to getting it good and hot, preheat it in the oven. Caramelization happens above 350°, so if you get that pan up to 375° then transfer it to a heated burner (make tea or something to bring up the temp), it'll take less time and be evenly heated. It should never be gray. If it is, your pan isn't hot enough and/or your meat is too wet and steaming in the juices rather than caramelizing. You can rest your shaped burgers on paper towels while the pan is heating if wet is an issue.

You should be able to get your char without the megaton flattop and without resorting to extra thick burgers. Like with frying, however, you don't want to put so much cool in your pan that it cools down below the magic 350°. You can also use a second pan to flip into so that it'll be good and hot to receive the new side. Make sure the chill is off your meat, and maybe even prewarm it next to the burner while you're heating the pan (and tea water)--not enough to start cooking, but to raise it in temperature. This is the ultimate "danger zone" however, so watch your time. Since you're not cooking to a high inner temperature, I'm assuming your beef is small batch ground away from the slaughterhouse (where a lot of contamination happens). If not, it should be at least medium well, anyway.

Good luck. Whatever you do, you'll get there. It's just hamburgers. :) You might have to make a hundred first, but inevitably, you'll figure out how to get them where you want them.

many years ago, somewhere, I read about this method. I see now someone new (Graham Elliot) is claiming it as his own, but it might be worth trying....

Ice cubes in hamburger patties

Adding water to the meat seems a bit strange but then I add wine......

I believe the "squish" is for a ball of raw meat, so that it gets pressed into the griddle for the greatest surface contact. As opposed to squishing the patty as it's cooking, which yes will drive out juices.

Annie... I was once a great eater of animals. Yes, yes... perhaps one of the most accomplished eaters of animals. I chanted in the streets... "Death to the animals!" Why? Because I wanted to eat the animals. I loved to eat the animals! I ate animals with abandon. I ate animals with gusto! I ate animals with... well, mostly ketchup. Sometimes mayo or A1. Even a bit of au jus when the mood struck.

But no more my dear Annie... no more! Really... no more, I'm full. Couldn't eat another bite. Lol.

The best burger? Chick peas and various veggies mushed into a patty. Perhaps with a little the remnants of homemade soy milk (also good mixed into homemade bagel dough.) Meh, skip the whole patty thing. Serve the beans mixed in with roasted eggplant, zucchini, tomato and well, any veggie in season. Drizzle with a good olive oil, garlic powder, and salt... YUMMMM! Lol.

Buford could even have some... sans the olive oil and garlic of course.

There once was a man up for a promotion at a big firm in the city. He had the job sown up. All he had to do was make his presentation before the board on Monday. But that morning disaster struck! He found out his mother got hit by a car and might die. Does he make the meeting or see his mama, perhaps for the last time?

He reasoned to himself... The job will set me and my family up for life... and isn't that what his mother wanted for him? He was well-liked, and all his co-workers felt sympathy for the man and all the worry he had to carry. Poor guy... :-P

Cute calf, hard to visualize him on the grill. I better not show Lily, she is an animal lover and advocate; but she's smart and I'll bet she knows the reality of her burgers.

I think one can love animals and eat them too. Everyone and everything has its role.

Jakkom, About your friend's sister...sounds like my DH also known as the HG (house guest). I was out of town so he called his sister and asked "do you put water in the pan to boil eggs?".

Another time I was at a CF Get-together, when I called home he said he was going to starve because he didn't know how to use the "can opener". There are folks here who can verify that call!! My BIL went over to rescue him.

With that said...it's hard to beat his coaching skills and he is a really nice guy.

FOAS, that makes sense. Thanks.

JL, agreed!

Annie, I love his colourings!!!! He's light gray, gorgeous.

Yes, he's a cute little guy, and an absolute terror in the pasture, LOL. He's also fuzzy and makes you just want to grab him. Fortunately, they're a lot less cute when they become 1000 pounds of bull, and start pushing everything and everyone around!

I love my animals, my cows are treated just like my horses, I love 'em all. I pet them and play with them and feed them treats and they follow me around. Even when it's time for them to become beef they don't go into a trailer and spend time in a stock yard, away from their herd in a strange place. I have Dallas come to the farm to slaughter and so they are born here, spend their lives here and only leave here after their death, which is as quick and painless as I can arrange.

If I had to eat commercial beef, I'd give it up too. They way they are raised and fed and treated offends me, it's a cruel industry and not a good life for those animals. So, I raise my own. It seems contra-indicative, but I raise my own beef because I DO love my animals, and I believe that everyone should remember where that meat comes from and the animals that produced it, and make their lives safe, happy and contented and their final demise as quick and painless as possible.

rgreen, I like a good veggie burger too. I actually eat meat about 3 or 4 times a week, not even every day. I've even kind of lost my taste for bacon and ham, although I know that's heresy, LOL. And yes, I raise my own pigs and chickens too.

Now, back to those burgers. olychick, Grandma used to tell me to mix ice chips into the meat and that they would produce steam as the ice melted and keep the meat moister, so it's not a new concept at all.

As for size, a quarter pounder is a bit more even than I want, maybe 5 burgers per pound or even 6, although mine don't shrink appreciably and some fattier meat might. I don't want it really crunchy on the outside, but I do want a bit of browned "crust", and warm in the middle, not cold.

Annie

Flank Sinatra - too funny!

Annie, I'm sure you love your animals. You're a REAL farmer. That's one of the biggest compliments in my book.

Oh, and John Liu - re burgers. Meet MUST be room temp and the patties MUST go into sizzling hot pan for a quick fry. This way it's crispy on the outsidwe and soft on the inside.