So far here's what I have for estimates, there are just 2: 1) Rheem 13 SEER 2 ton heatpump model RHSL indoors and 13PJL24A01 outdoors. 10kw back up heater on the indoor unit, Honeywell Digital pro 5000 thermostat. 5 year parts warranty, 1 year labor. $3962 This would NOT qualify for a federal tax credit. I asked about the tax credit, he'd never heard of it, but gave me a price for an RHSL 15 SEER of $5200, and according the Rheem website that one doesn't qualify for the tax credit either. His lack of knowledge of the tax credit makes me nervous (nice guy though). 2) Trane 4TWXS024 2 ton 15 SEER heat pump (XL15i) and 4TEE3F31 2.5 ton variable speed air handler. BACHTR1410 10kw heater, Trane 7 day touch screen programmable thermostat. 10 year parts and labor warranty. $100 rebate from Trane. Total cost with the rebate $5625. #2 offers 6 months financing at 0%, but I'm don't think I'd use that. He was familiar with the tax credit and said he provides all the certification and ARI number that I need for it. I'm tempted to just go with #2. Do you think that sounds good, or should I get another estimate?

Well let's look at the dollars. Many systems don't last for more than 12 years. That would calculate to about $1500 per year for 12 years, to pay for the cost of a new TRANE, whereas, you pay $1000 this year and maybe another 1000 a year or so later. If you have a leak, then you may need a new coil (Because no one will spend the 3 hours to fix it) they will sell you a new coil, then spend 3 hours to install it. Questionable logic, but most common of all repairs. Peace of mind is worth something. I had a customer that claimed peace of mind was more important than money, but he always wanted a super low cost on all repairs. The TRANE 'new bid' will probably cost you $1500 per year for the next 12 years. It will need to be replaced before that time, or sloppy techs will force you to replace it sooner. The old junk is paid for. Replace the motor, contactor, caps every year, and you will never cost more than $1000. Even if the tech really hoses you. TRANE sells piece of mind, and claims to be the best. Why don't they sell more equipment than the lower quality systems? Because most people realize that TRANE is just a name put on the same components as sold by everyone. I have a very expensive touch screen thermostat that did not last 6 months, with a TRANE logo on it. To get warrantee, I need to show a sales receipt for the stat. I was the repair guy, not the installer. The stat was made by Honeywell and labeled by TRANE. If the stat did not have the logo on it, Home Depot would sell me a new one for 1/3 of the list price TRANE uses. I could return it without any problems. Instead, it sits on my desk as a reminder of what a company can do to its customers. You wonder why I don't like some manufacturers. This is the reason. I have an account with TRANE that I can use. It is inactive this year so far. The same as I have an account with Goodman. It was inactive until a couple of weeks ago. The Carrier account is the one we use this year. But not to confuse the issue, all manufacturers are hardnosed on their branded product. Many warrantees never happen, because of crappy return policies. Today I am looking at a $360 stat labeled by TRANE. Now for the good news; I can return the stat maybe, if I cheat and lie to TRANE. I try to never lie or cheat, so I guess the stat will be a constant reminder why I don't care for TRANE.

The independent HVAC company that deals mainly with American Standard equipment is telling me this (will send quote via e-mail later this week): 1. Need 3.5 ton unit because new refrigerant 410A is not as cold as R-22. Also, insulation in older homes in Southern California is not good, so need stronger ac unit. 2. He says that he doesn't need to do a Manual J. His 25 years of experience says to stay with 3.5 ton unit. Also, recommends replacing evap coils and furnace. 3. Noticed that existing furnace is upright/standing rather than laying flat. He's the 2nd guy to shake his head at the way it's installed. He says it's not efficient to put a furnace upright and the evap coils on the side of the upgright furnace. 4. He doesn't work with rebates, so he doesn't want to bring outside company to test energy efficiency prior and after install. He says the extra money you spend on trying to qualify for a rebate is a waste and not worth in the long run. I told him that the Costco affiliated company will do rebates and will test. He says California is going broke and probably no money for rebates. He also said that I need a 90% efficient furnace to qualify for rebates. 5. Asked if I wanted to get the permits myself. Kept saying that city is likely to ask me to move outside condenser due to its closeness to new pool. I told him I got permits 4 years ago for pool and pool equipment and city approved the location of pool and pool equipment and a/c unit was there already. 6. Says to use existing ducts and vents/registers. Will probably use same lineset since it will outlast my lifetime. 7. This guy is the actual installer. Company is so busy, they couldn't send me the salesperson. He came from finishing an install at another house. ----------------------------------------- Costco affiliated HVAC company (www.airtro.com) will also send me quote via e-mail tonight or tomorrow. Sent the salesman who says he'll be the supervisor for the job at the start. 1. Says that I can go with 3 ton a/c unit with new evap coils. Keep lineset. Says that double-pane windows help. Says Fraser-Johnson was low end unit. Says Lennox is much better. 2. Says furnace should not be upright in attic and says it's a bad installation. Recommends new furnace. 3. Permits will cost about $200 to pull. 4. Will bring a company to test ducts/energy efficiency to qualify for best possible rebate amount(probably $1500). Can't promise, but says that's his company has not been denied a rebate yet. They will do all the paperwork. 5. Recommends new ducts and a new vent/register in kitchen. Recommends dampers in ducts to evenly distribute air. Says some existing ducts are the rigid ones and might have moved/shifted over time, so he's certain that I'm losing 30% of air. $2000 to do all new ducts. 6. Problem is he only offers Lennox Merit equipment for $7000, $2000 for ducts, $200 for permits. I'm expecting a detailed quote. He says equipment is the best in the industry. 1-year labor warranty and the standard 5-year equipment warranty on the a/c unit from Lennox. I can upgrade to Lennox Elite for $2000 more, but it's a 2-stage system that I don't want. Did not recommend anything outside of the Costco price list. 7. Showed me awards from Angie's list and local newspaper, BBB certificate, insurance coverage, etc. True salesperson. My overall impression is that the American Standard independent installer seemed to say that he's been doing this for xx years and he knows what's best for me. Don't need rebates and don't need permits. That's what it felt like, but I told him I want permits. I told him I want all American Standard equipment like the Gold SI compressor, matching coils to maximize SEER, and a compatible AS furnace at 80% efficiency. The Costco affiliated company wants to charge me for a full-system (cut-in) which includes new ducts, new registers, new equipment, etc. I think that he wants to put a new register in the kitchen to justify the $2000 duct charge on the price list. I felt that this salesperson was recommending the package rather than my needs. He did have a checklist of items to go over, so it felt like we had a more complete conversation minus a technical discussion on how to ensure that all the Lennox components fit my needs and achieve the best possible SEER. I think that after reading so many posts here and getting so much advice, I was expecting more. I suppose that I'll find out more when I get the quotes via e-mail and see how detailed they are. Also, I'll see how they respond once i start making changes to the equipment based on opinions from this board.

JZ What size and efficiency furnace are you replacing? BTUs please. Let's break down the quote. I have to admit I don't follow your dealer's logic. The smaller furnace quoted is a two stg var spd 80% eff furnace. The larger furnace is a two stg var speed 95% eff furnace. Both will require a two stg thermostat for best operation. I am not familiar with Emerson thermostats. On the coil, dealer has quoted a third party ADP evap coil. That's not what I would recommend. I would want the best matching Rheem coil for your application. Certainly a point to raise with dealer. How do you filter your return air? I would also ask dealer to verify mdl number of AC condenser. Not certain but I believe he is quoting a discontinued mdl. Post back. IMO