Ah CT - here we spent $90 last month for 4000 sq feet - with just ASHP.... but that was mostly A/C (and lights etc). Are you still heating in CT? To respond to the previous poster. Geothermal works great in the South (just like the North) - its just that it is overkill most of the time. My audit suggested I'd save $300 a year with geothermal but that was based on a reference house - it was down to about $100 compared to HE ASHP. Try to get $100 a year to ever payback - sure it saves money but you could save more clipping a coupon a week without the $20k upfront cost. How is this thread still alive? The savings of geothermal compared to oil in the North is amazing. Compared to ASHP in the South - it is pennies. There is an ad line that says installing geo is like taking 2 cars off the road. They must be some pretty efficient cars.... Unless you are comparing to oil in the North. The average car driving 12,000 miles a year costs about $2000 in energy (20 mpg at $3 a gallon). The average house uses less than that for HVAC. Cost is not the only concern but there is nothing clean about gas in a car - at least electricity can be clean.... CONC: Insulate and use geothermal if you can do horizontal loop or live in the North and your alternative is not NG. And drive a hybrid and/or right sized car. And don't use incandescent bulbs for lights on frequently.

I know it is unpopular to those with low income to be hit with a flat 10% income tax but consider this. I have seen that people are more invested in something and the outcome when they have a personal investment. If you are paying 10% of your hard earned income as Federal income tax, you will be more concerned about how those dollars are spent. You will tend to vote more, take the time to research where the money is going, etc. . . because of the impact it has on your income. It truly is your government and your country when you own part of it. I say this from a perspective of helping those in need and seeing the difference between those who have no problem getting a hand out and those who prefer a hand up. Economically I think a flat 10% income tax across the board would surprise people with how much more revenue would come in to pay a balanced budget required to be passed and approved October 1 each year instead of pushed back until January and then again depending on the politics at the time. The tax should perform its function of supporting the government and not be used for something it is not intended to accomplish which is social reform or social adjustments. The budget should be finalized by October 1 period, end of story. No budget no government until one is approved.

chisue, it depends on a lot of different factors. In Chicago it might take you forever. In a sunny CA city you could reach breakeven in less than 10 yrs. We don't have air conditioning and use gas for heat, so our 14-panel rooftop system eliminates just about all electricity costs as long as it's not raining or heavy overcast. In the SF Bay Area/NorCA, figure April thru end of October. Minimum charge from PG&E (one of the highest cost utilties in the country, we're so [NOT] grateful) is $5, but will be going to $10/mo under new rate structure just approved by our gutless wonder, the state PUC. Electricity is very expensive in CA. There is currently a 4-tier price system; recently challenged in court it was dumped and will now be a 2-tier system. Those who used or wasted the most electricity will see a drop in their bills; most including those who tried to conserve, will see a rise in rates. We never made extreme efforts to conserve electricity but we are retirees and the TV/broadband/computers are running most of the 24-hr day, 7 days a week (unless we're traveling). We were on the lower end of the 4th highest-priced tier even w/o air conditioning or an electric car. Once you put in solar all of the 3 CA utilities only bill once a year for electricity. They keep a running tab so you know how it changes month-to-month. You are billed and pay for gas usage monthly, as before. We have no regrets buying the system. We are getting the 20-yr warranty (the standard install comes with a 10-yr) and it will be transferable to a new homeowner. There is huge interest in solar in our area, but few homeowners have put it in. RE agents have told us it's definitely a plus for resale. >>>The spiel they spin is that rates will be going up, and by installing solar, your rates will be locked in. Who knows?>> Okay, here's WHAT EVERY CALIFORNIA SOLAR SYSTEM OWNER SHOULD KNOW: There is no question about "Who knows?" Although most of the media flubbed the 2015 coverage badly, the big issue before the PUC, which took over a year to settle, was NOT just the rates the utilities are charging customers. It was also the fact that solar customers have a special rate to begin with, under the program called "Net Energy Metering" or NEM. This program is also known by its old name, "Net Zero Monitoring". This is how residential & commercial private solar installs are allowed to use their solar generation production for credit on their bills. NEM was the states' part in the push by the federal government to encourage solar system installations. CA was one of those states; as was Hawaii and a few others. The NEM credit given to solar customers was deliberately generous. In wiping out most of a user's bill for a good part of the year, it also means that customer isn't paying to help maintain the power stations and grid, without which there is no power delivery to anyone. It's the same problem that has arisen with electric cars: by bypassing the gas stations and the gas taxes, they are using and wearing out streets and highways, but not paying to maintain the infrastructure they use alongside non-hybrids/non-electrics. Sooooo......the California PUC's decision was: - NEM is being phased out. There was always a numeric cap to the # of installs. At last count - you can check your own utility's cap on-line, it shows up in a Google search - PG&E will probably reach its max NEM cap sometime in mid-2016 or earlier, depending on # of solar installs. - The other two CA utilities are not quite as close to their cap #s as PG&E, but they are seeing a steady stream of installations. Figure 2017 or 2018 at the very latest. - After the NEM cap is reached, each utility will no longer offer the generous NEM credit to a user's electricity bill. Usage will be assessed and charged, or debited, at current approved rates. Now for the critical part for those who already have solar systems installed: NEM users will have a 20-yr maximum transition period. After that, the NEM rate ends for that user and you go to market rates. I wrote a post in the Renewable Energy forum about this, so you may want to go read that: http://ths.gardenweb.com/discussions/3133178/solar-investment-tax-credit-remember-expiry-date-is-12-31-2016?n=1

I thought you should have a homeowner’s opinion. I would prefer natural gas heat. It’s a warmer heat. The cost of natural gas has gone down tremendously! We used to pay $125/month for year-round service: furnace, water heater, dryer. It went down to $95, then $75, and now $54. We don’t even have insulation in the majority of our walls! And natural gas IS clean. Heating oil is the dirty one. At the end of the winter, walls need to be washed down. Of course it’s not as dirty as my Grandma’s old house; it burned pure coal. Propane is clean, but it is tied into the price per barrel of crude oil; that is highly volatile. (The price, not the oil…well yes it is; it’s burned for heat. But you know what I mean…) Electric heat pump is only efficient down to 30 – 40 degrees. Lower than that requires supplemental heating…maybe even a boost from extra electric resistors. So your cost effectiveness depends on how many days lower than 30 degrees your location receives. With the push for solar and wind energy, they will be making more efficient heat pumps for the colder climates. Where we are building, there is not natural gas. A heat pump may be more efficient now, but we are going with geothermal (this is a heat pump, but Delta values will make it run more efficiently) for the long term. We bought the acre next door so we can run the piping horizontally. My brother-in-law has an HVAC company; he became certified in geothermal when some ICF builders wanted the highest efficiency houses. Once the houses were built, (Mid south), the efficiency study determined that a heat pump would be far more efficient than adding geothermal with its associated costs. They have tiny electric bills for their large houses. Our former builder had geothermal in a totally cement house. Geothermal lends itself easily to in-floor radiant heat. I don’t remember if he had AC; he kept his house pretty warm. But if you want AC also, you’ll need to run ductwork also. We don’t know what our energy costs will be in the future. It is the one cost we won’t have much control over. The Supreme Court has already determined that the cost of cleaning up existing power plants was not taken into consideration by the EPA. Going totally electric and relying mostly on solar or wind power lays too much of a financial burden on the utility companies…who will only transfer its cost to its customers. Dependence on oil puts the power in the Middle East. I think the key is getting an energy efficient envelope of a house; that’s why the heat pumps are more effective with the ICF: higher R value. Spend more money on your windows, doors, insulation and walls. THAT’s where your biggest savings will come from.