We built 2 years ago in North Texas and installed geothermal. The installer drilled the holes (we don't have a pond to have a plate submerged). Our house is 3200 sq ft but on one floor. The unit has 3 zones and there are 4 thermastats. The total cost was $28,000 whereas a conventional unit was about $24,000. My bills are rarely over $200, the Jan bill was $229. IT heats and cools well, much better than the heat pump unit in our other 2 story house.

Definately go with the geothermal. I just built and we went through the same thing. My house is 2000 sq. ft. Standard Carrier heat pump with duct work was $9000. A top of the line Carrier geothermal system with duct work and 450 ft. of vertical wells was $15000. The difference was $6000 then with the 30% rebate of $4500 it was only $1500 more. How could you pass that up?

I'm not familiar with tax credits for air-source heat pumps (if there are any). We built too early to qualify for the federal tax credits for GSHP, but we *did* get a small rebate from the electric company, and we do not pay real estate taxes on the system. I won't even compare our prices here in CT with yours, but we had our well driller do the wells (two 279-ft deep) when he did the water well, he had a sub who did the piping and penetrations and we had a HVAC company install the ductwork, heat pump, desuperheater (required for tax credit!) and hot water tanks. The well driller and his sub did the work for what the HVAC guy and his driller would have charged (piping probably would have been another sub, or the driller). AND we were able to "save" money by having the well driller use the first well he drilled looking for water as a GT well, since otherwise I just would have paid extra for him to fnd water on the 2nd try, and then had to convince the GT driller to use the first well and only come in for the 3rd (2nd geo well).

All the lines (water and prop. glycol) come into the house in the same trench, well driller did the basement penetrations too. Check with your local regulations, here the wells had to be 25ft from domestic water, but no restrictions on trenching.

We are very happy with our Climatemaster Tranquility 27 4-ton heat pump. Though I learned we should not have had 2 zones since for some reason the "smart" Honeywell t-stat will not allow you to set a lockout temp (above which the electric Aux Heat will not come on) if you have 2 zones.

Again, can't compare bills since CT has such high rates, but we use roughly 36 kWh/day when not heating or cooling, slightly more when cooling (and I do mean *slightly* - the GSHP is very efficient at removing heat from the house, which is why we only went 4 tons for 2700sf), and in the coldest depths of winter when the Aux Heat is running we used 77kwH/day last Feb and 76 this Feb. So for 2-3 months out of the year our bill is double what it is for the spring/summer/fall months of Apr-June and Sept-Nov, but our annual electricity bill (with electric dryer and non-HE washer) is still in line with what DH's coworkers pay for a similar-sized house with standard insulation and windows, and then they have an oil/propane bill on top of that.

Most of my family heats with wood, so their bills are lower - if we could put in a wood-burning stove it would help quite a bit in the winter.

Bob,

I am facing the same decision as you are. We would really like to install a geothermal heat pump. And I don't mind paying a little more for the system. I have received only one quote back so far from a company in Athens, AL and it seemed way to high. It was for $51,000 for the Waterfurnace 5 ton Envisioneer system including horizontal loops. The estimates we have been getting for a heat pump have been around $14,000 and that is for two 4 ton Trane units.

So it is a pretty substantial price difference even after you take the tax rebate into consideration. I figure with that price difference it will take about 10 years before we really see the return on our investment.

I have asked for a quote on the Climatemaster system, but have not yet received the quote back from them yet.

You have to get local quotes - you can't rely on what people in other parts of the country are paying.

Geothermal is best when you are in an extreme temp part of the country. I would gather that No Al is not extreme temp (humidity maybe).

Don't rely on non experts for such a technical decision. I won't bash individuals but there are statements that don't make sense on forums.

Get an energy audit if you want good local info. You will be suprised at the payback rates on certain things and the rather long time for payback on other things.

My bold sweeping statement is that so few people do geothermal in No Al, that your local installer experience won't be good. I'll also guess that you won't really save much with a geo unit as compared to HE air source HPs. I'll give you some NC numbers for 4000 sq ft to chew on (I would guess you actually have less extreme temps because of a warmer winter and only a slightly hotter summer). Geo saved $315 a year while the savings from Seer 13 to 15 HPs was $175 a year. People in the North will be absolutely shocked at these numbers. Solar hot water saves $350 a year (and costs So - do it if you find a reasonable local installer and get the tax credit and the upcharge becomes reasonable (as in Move North of the Mason Dixon line and the math becomes totally different. In the South, it is hard to make it worth it. Now - do some solar hot water as that is easy payback.

I just looked back at the size of your house and you generally living on one floor. I'm going to move my guess back to $150 a year savings from geothermal.

And another thing - you are not likely to have any reasonable payback for brand name windows. Buy them for other reasons but don't think you are going to save money. El cheapo but low E windows are the smartest financial decision. Compare your u values and don't buy the absolute cheapest - but know that any decent window stops air infiltration and a u value is a u value (and an emissivity is an emissivity). And the glass is all made by a few manufacturers and resold to the window makers.

Do yourself a favor and do an energy audit. Look into energy star utility breaks. Do a radiant barrier. Try to keep ducts in conditioned space. Do r-40 in the attic. Even do 2x6 walls. But very few things payback in 5 years (radiant and r-40 in the attic do) since I'm guessing your utility costs are pretty low. I'd be absolutely shocked if geo pays back in 5 years and I'd be even more shocked if Marvin Integrity windows pay back in 5 years (vs MW 200 series for example).

David, I take issue with your comment that doing GSHPs in the South aren't worth it. The big climate issue in the South is the long hot, humid weather. An air source unit is taking 98 degree air and making 78 degree air. A ground source takes 76 degree water and makes 78 degree air.

Even in the winter: 40 degree air to make 70 or 76 degree water to make 70.

Ok srercrcr - I know that my opinion runs counter to the majority here.

I drive a civic hybrid, built an energy star house, have solar hot water and believe that running out of cheap energy is the greatest threat to modern civilization out there.

Our estimated cooling bill (prior to improvments) was $450 a year. Throw extra air sealing, radiant barrier, r-40 in the attic, seer 16 and we are probably at $300. Try to save a lot of money from $300 a year....Even if geo saved 50% - that is a whopping $150 a year.

david_cary, do you mind me asking a few questions about your build? My email is weiyan8 at gmail. Thanks.

Wei Yan Chan

cary: I hear ya. My cooled space is only 1300 sf, in hot Texas, have a great house envelope incl in shade trees and "attic" only gets to 90 degrees (the independent second story serves as the attic to the cooled first story.....my annual cooling only costs are something like $750 with SEER 13 (bought in 1996). If I had SEER 16 I's probably be at $600 a year. So yes if one has a smaller home or is doing all the latest building techniques, geo wouldn't pay. The avg US home costs around $2200/yr to heat and cool though. Thats the AVG. Where is above avg? How high is the sky? I guess its fair to say if ones home is avg or larger size geo probably would be cost-effective.

Here's my past year's usage history (entire electric bill)

2/17/2010: 2164 kWH 29 days 74.62kWh/day $363.81 28.7F avg temp
1/19/2010: 2599 kWh 34 days 76.44kWh/day $430.08 27.1F
12/16/2009: 1441 kWh 29 days 49.69kWh/day $243.01 40.4F
11/17/2009: 1470 kWh 32 days 45.94 kWh/day $247.59 49F
10/16/2009: 1063 kWh 29 days 36.66 kWh/day $205.92 55.4F
9/17/2009: 895 kWh 28 days 31.96 kWh/day $175.91 66.8F
8/20/2009: 1291 kWh 31 days 41.65 kWh/day $246.66 74.1F
7/20/2009: 1199 kWh 33 days 36.33 kWh/day $230.60 69.1F
6/17/2009: 1048 kWh 30 days 34.93 kWh/day $204.07 63.2F
5/18/2009: 965 kWh 28 days 34.46 kWh/day $189.17 58.2F
4/20/2009: 1576 kWh 32 days 49.25 kWh/day $298.83 45.2F
3/19/2009: 1893 kwh 29 days 65.28 kWh/day $355.72 34.9F
2/18/2009: 2299 kWh 30 days 76.63 kWh/day $428.59 27.8F

david_cary and srecrcr can I ask what you pay per kWh? We just switched suppliers, so are saving 2 cents/kWh on generation but it's still over 16 cents total. That's about 2x what we were paying over the border in RI. Just wondering if your rates are even lower than that since your annual heating/cooling bills are about what we pay for (total usage) electricity in a MONTH (averaged out over the year)! But as I said, lots of people with fairly new houses of similar size here are paying $250/mo not including heating fuel. You can add another $3000-$4000/yr for that depending on how they heat their hot water, and also their electricity bill can run up near $400/mo in the summer with A/C. So our total electricity bill for the past 12 months was $3191, other people are paying that or more for electricity and then at least that for oil, propane, or gas. We're pretty happy (relatively speaking - DH still grumbles about the high rates).

To the OP - obviously, the higher your electricity or fuel rates, the more you can save by using geo or solar. Sorry I really don't know differences in efficiencies (prob. cooling is your biggest expense) b/t air source and ground source heat pumps, nor as I said do I know what (if) tax credits for air source pumps are. You'll have to do your homework.

We pay 9.6 in the winter and 10.4 in the summer.

So that obviously changes the equation - in the South, we generally pay much less for electricity so that makes Geo less favorable. Why - well there is the TVA but I am not in the Tenn Valley. We have a large nuclear plant about 15 miles away.

I've never had an electric bill over $200 (this house or others). We typically have 3 months of heavy a/c usage at about $100 a month (on top of the $60 baseline) with the new house. It is probably more like $80 and then there is $20 here and there.

Now with this winter, the combined gas and electric was $250 1 month (not all HVAC). I don't expect that is going to be the usual since this winter has been brutal. Our average temp has been close to Philadelphia's usual average temp.

The most surprising thing about HVAC costs around here (NC) is that heat costs 3x what a/c costs. The survey that we had done before we built (based on plans) had heat at about $1400 and cooling at $450. I suspect we have that down to $700 and $300. The heat maybe even less as this month was a bit less than $200 and it was brutally cold. December was probably $100 and that was way colder than usual. So worst cast is Dec at $100, Jan-Mar at $200, and April at $50. If Mar is $200, I'm moving further south....

Thanks david - I thought you were NC but couldn't remember. Makes a big difference when utility rates are double. DH said rates are double what they were in RI, I don't remember now (2.5 yrs later) but just checked current rates, Narragansett Electric (National Grid) basic residential rate is 5.461 cents per kWh plus a $2.75/mo charge. That would make our highest electric bill in the past year (last month) $144.68 instead of $363.81, and the total annual bill $994.35 for a total savings over the past year of $2247, assuming roughly the same weather. Gotta love deregulation!

Maybe we should move south (or back to RI?)...

Oops - I was wondering why they didn't list a generation rate in their tariffs - the "supply charge" in RI was 9.2 cents/kWh the first half of 2008 and 12.4 the last half of 2008 (couldn't find 2009 but in 2010 it went back to 9.2 cents. So not as great a difference from RI to CT as I thought. We would have only saved (assuming average rate of 16 cents/kWh for 2009 for supply and transmission?) $341.

I'll have to tell DH - that will make him feel better.

Do the rates you quoted me include transmission and other charges?

There is a little bit of tax added on.

Our utility in Texas just changed how they bill it out, but if I divide the billed $$ by the kwh I get 13.1 cents. My estimate of cooling costs was based on when we had 11 cents per kwh, (and it was really electricity costs)so I will show my study...remember 1300 sf, SEER 13, excellent envelope....ANNUAL COSTS.

Electricity:
Appliances incl cookg 400
Lighting 150
A/C 350
Total electric $900

Propane:
Dryer and furnace 400
Water heater 50
Total propane $450

Total energy/year $1350

This was a study I did. The actual electric billed the last 12 months was around 950, so it's pretty valid.

The home square footage is the biggest factor that drives cost IMO. I purposely built my home to keep the sf modest...just two people. The Climate Master website tool claims I can save 45% with Geo, but theyre way off cause they say my propane water heater should be costing me 10 times what it does.

Wow, you only used about 42 kWh/ year (!) for cooking and lighting? Of course I have electric hot water (prewarmed by desuperheater), but we use that in almost a month! What kind of appliances do you have? We have EnergyStar fridge, but it's a big one, Bosch DW (maybe you don't have one) and I don't think I use the range (certainly not the oven much) during the non-heating season, we try to grill out. Lighting we have CFL bulbs in the kitchen where we usually have 5 lights on but again once the spring gets here they're not on but maybe a couple hours a day. The vanity lights (6 40-W incandescents) get turned on a lot, kids tend not to use the single ceiling light in the fan even though it's got a separate switch, but I yell at them to turn off lights when they leave the room.

I think all the laundry I do is a major contributor to our electric bill. Gotta get some fill in (DH is afraid it will cause backyard to need regrading though to keep water away from the foundation) so I can get rid of the swampy low spot out the back door, then I can put up a clothesline.

srercrcr - that is unbelieveable low on the hot water. The national average is about $300 and propane is not the cheapest.

Then your appliances and cooking are pretty high. We have a gas cooktop and spend between $2 and $3 a month. I did some math and figured the dishwasher is about 5 cents a run so max of $2 a month. The fridge is maybe $10 a month. Washer machine - I'd be shocked if it was over $3 a month so what is that - $200 a year.

Overall it is pretty good. I'm closer to $1800/yr but with 4000 sq feet...

My old keyboard didn't hit the last digit I typed there - but 423 kWh/yr is still low to me - you can see our total usage was double that n the lowest month last year. Of course our house is double your sf but since we're talking appliances and lights, not HVAC, I can't believe the difference. Of course, we've got 2x the number of people too, so probably do 2x (or more) the laundry/dishes, but not
the cooking.

We really have to get an energy audit done - I'm stll trying to foam around the windows and doors as I finished the trim (replacing the fberglas the builder stuffed in), when I finish that we'll pay $75 for the energy audit incl. a blower door test.

ajsmama: You're still slipping a digit, it's 4230 kwh. Electric hot water is expensive. I know my propane water heat is real because in the summer that's the only propane use and I watch the gauge, so I can annualize that, lets not split hairs on that.
Cary: First, gas and propane beat the socks off electric hot water. No comparison. The natl avg probably incl electric. Appliances and cooking would tend to be high because we live in the country and don't go out to eat alot. The computers always on too. You're paying 33% higher bill for a house 3 times the size....thats super. My last house was 1650 sf and ironically I paid $1650 a year (at 13 cents). You have A/C? in hot climate?
All: My water heater and furnace is centrally located so I have very little wasted money due to waiting on the hot water. Yes, more people and more sf costs more, but cary is counterbalancing that with efficiency measures. Enjoyed!

Sorry- that missing 0 was all me - can't blame the keyboard. I'm tempted to try shutting off the breaker to the 2nd tank this summer and see what the desuperheater does by itself. I want to look into solar hot water this year but DH says he wants to fnish the house 1st. think we use a lot of hot water and payback would be fast - esp. if this is the last year for tax credits - who knows what Congress will do next year?

David Cary where in NC did you go to have your survey done before you built? We'd be interested in doing that in inner banks area once we have plans drawn.

Southern Energy

upfront cost of geothermal is high.
heat pump is more affordable...but it depends on
your $ to spend.
if you choose heat pump...15 seer is your
best bet, above that the performance is not
cost effective. ( have run the #'s many times!)
in the end it is up to you.
best of luck.

I put in a geothermal system this winter and have saved $4000 over my last year's heating bill, which was oil. The house is warmer and cozier too due to the longer run times of the blower. As we tighten the house up I expect we will save even more.

I have read posts in www.geoexchange.org written by people in Texas and Florida who love their geothermal systems, so they do work well down south. There's is a guy posting from Florida who has a large, new, energy efficient house that costs him so little to heat, a/c and run that it's amazing.

Last bill was $232, 1347 kWh for 33 days. A little warmer than last year, but over the past year we've averaged $255/mo (and that would drop another $10 since we changed suppliers a few months ago). The highest usage in winter has been 77 kWh/day, but my DH reminds me that we still spend about the same on electricity per year as many people with oil heat do, and then they have the oil on top of it (or vice versa - they spend $3000+ on oil and then have electricity on top of it). His informal survey of coworkers also found that people here in CT who have central air spend as much or more during the summer months as we do during the winter. He remarked that with global warming we should come out ahead since the GSHP is more efficient at cooling.

Ah CT - here we spent $90 last month for 4000 sq feet - with just ASHP.... but that was mostly A/C (and lights etc). Are you still heating in CT?

To respond to the previous poster. Geothermal works great in the South (just like the North) - its just that it is overkill most of the time. My audit suggested I'd save $300 a year with geothermal but that was based on a reference house - it was down to about $100 compared to HE ASHP. Try to get $100 a year to ever payback - sure it saves money but you could save more clipping a coupon a week without the $20k upfront cost.

How is this thread still alive? The savings of geothermal compared to oil in the North is amazing. Compared to ASHP in the South - it is pennies. There is an ad line that says installing geo is like taking 2 cars off the road. They must be some pretty efficient cars.... Unless you are comparing to oil in the North.

The average car driving 12,000 miles a year costs about $2000 in energy (20 mpg at $3 a gallon). The average house uses less than that for HVAC. Cost is not the only concern but there is nothing clean about gas in a car - at least electricity can be clean....

CONC: Insulate and use geothermal if you can do horizontal loop or live in the North and your alternative is not NG. And drive a hybrid and/or right sized car. And don't use incandescent bulbs for lights on frequently.

When you get a 30 percent tax credit for the whole system, geothermal also makes a lot of sense in the South. The 30 percent credit paid for most of the difference in extra cost for my geothermal system. I also love the fact that there are no noisy and unsightly compressors outside my house.

david - still heating - we've had frost warnings at night, though we've had some days in the 80's too! We turned off the breakers for the resistive heat more than a month ago, so any heat has been pure geo. But we still have 80 gallon electric H2O tank at 120 F, even though most of the lights are CFL, the plasma TV is on a lot after school, the kids take hot showers 2-3x/week (x2 kids), DH and I take lukewarm showers daily, I run the Bosch Energystar DW daily and average 7 loads of laundry dried in electric dryer each week. Our lowest bill in the summer was about 965 kWh so about 33kWh/day.

Even though we built too early for the tax credit, we still think geo is the way to go for new construction. I'm even trying to talk my parents into retrofitting (bottom floor only, there's only 1 BR upstairs) but my dad doesn't think it's worth it since they'll be lucky to be in the house another 15 yrs.

I'd be interested to hear how much the cost of geo investment is recovered in a sale of the property.