have you tried air-layering? You bend the cane down so it touches the soil or bury it just a little. Put a brick or something on it to hold it down. Then it will send out roots where it is touching the soil and after it is rooted well, you can cut it lose from the main stem. You can do it in a pot, then you don't have to dig it up. I think you may need to scrape the cane a little and may need rooting hormone. but not sure about this. I've even seen people scrape the cane, wrap a piece of plastic below the scrape and tie it up with string. Leave room above the scrape to add soil, dampen it, then tie string around top of plastic. It will root where it was scraped and you will be able to see the roots through the plastic. look up air-layering here on the propagation forum.

A sport is a different kettle of fish. Yes, you can propagate it, name it (it's a new cultivar, remember) and even register it.

You can find patent dates on Help Me Find (HMF). If you haven't explored HMF yet, it contains a trove of useful information and photos.

To respond to your first question, if you really have no idea what the rose is and have done a best "in faith" effort to find out what it is, you don't know if it's patented or not. I tend to assume that most unknown hybrid teas or floribundas in my yard are patented unless they're a really old cultivar - it's the old garden roses like teas, hybrid perpetuals and gallicas that are much less likely as a rule to be patented (although we have some great breeders that are producing new varieties of these types of roses now too). We have quite a few rose breeders that chime in here and talk about the hidden cost to them when someone "rustles" one of their patented roses, so I try to err on the cautious side when anything looks remotely modern, even if I'm not sure exactly what it is. There's little enough profit in rose breeding as it is, and we'd like to support the stalwart souls who do so (and the companies that invest in selling those roses) as much as possible.

I think of it like CD recordings that I buy. I feel OK about uploading that CD to my own computer to play it in another format, but I would be liable if I tried to share it with someone else. In the same way, the air-layering that country girl talks about is a way of providing a personal "back up" of a rose already in your yard that someone paid for at some time at least. Just don't share or sell something if you don't know if it's patented or not.

Cynthia

Patents are good for 20 years from the date of the patent, not the date of introduction. Those can often vary a lot. HMF is a good place to check for dates.

If you have some idea of when your house was built and when the roses may have been planted by the previous owner than you can usually have a pretty good idea of how old they may be and work from there.

Lee Valley Tools has a rooting kit that works like air layering without having to bend the branch down to the soil. Check it out!

Lee Valley Tools

so a sport is considered a different kind of rose? Then I still have a question on that as well. For instance doesn't mrs. Benjamin R Cant have a white sport.? This rose is really old and is probably not still have a patent. However, on more modern roses, when a rose that has a tendency to sport, does it usually put out the same kind of sport, no matter where it is located? Or does it tend to have a new variety each and every time?What keeps a person from finding a sport and getting a patent - unbeknown by another person in another garden that gets a sport? These are theory questions. I am hoping to learn.

I have gone to helpmefind and love looking at the pictures of the roses, but inorder to learn the parentage of the roses, don't you have to have a subscription. I figured the subscription is more for those who want to breed roses or that has a hobby of "growing new roses" not someone like me who normally goes to the store and purchases a rose.

Also, when people get ready to "shovel prune" their rose, can a person take it and try it in their garden? I assume shovel prune means to dig it up. Since someone is digging it up can someone take it and plant it? I would not do this to a diseased rose.... nor have I done it at all, but I notice some people on the board tend to get newer roses and for one reason or another get rid of a rose.

Just asking. Thanks again.

When I had more time I'd dig up roses I no longer needed, put them in pots, and give them away when they had nice blooms on them. Good way to encourage people to come to rose club meetings.

Most sports are not stable - they revert back to the appearance of the mother plant. Also, most sports are not desirable. The sports that I've had in my garden were ...uh...ugly. So to introduce a sport as a new rose it must be stable for several generations and have desirable characteristics.

I was curious so I looked up that air layering tool. It does look quite nifty. I've never airlayered.

http://www.leevalley.com/US/Garden/page.aspx?cat=2,47236&p=46938

Some roses do put out the same sport from time to time. And many roses that are sports will revert back to the original rose. Abracadabra, a striped floribunda sport of Hocus Pocus is notorious for reverting. I think either way your OK to root cuttings. It's also perfectly fine to take shovel prunes. Since I have this thing about not killing any thing that survives my crappy winters I always try to find good homes for my shovel prunes.

You do have to be a member to see the parentage page but you can see the first page with out a membership at HMF. The first page has a ton of info on it and that's where you will find the patent and intro dates and the basic parentage of a rose. If it's a sport it will have that as the parentage.

Sporting is variable. Some have always sported to the same rose and others have had several different sports. Since sports are a genetic mutation during the growth of the plant many things can affect a slight genetic mutation and produce a sport. Most all climbing HTs are sports of their shorter bush sisters, like Peace and Cl. Peace. It's a genetic mutation that causes the plant to want to grow those tall, climbing canes. Other mutations could be a color change in the bloom. Like Rosie O'Donnell, a red HT with a yellow reverse and its sport Trump Card, an orange HT with a yellow reverse. Mutations probably happen all the time but unless someone notices it they're never registered. And as said early a lot of sports are not stable. They happen once and never happen again. For it to be stable it must continue to express the new mutation trait after it's been cut and rooted. Some do, some don't.

thank you all this has been very informative. I really enjoy learning about roses. You are much appreciated/

Sharon - just to encourage you to consider a membership in helpmefind, I have found it immensely helpful even when I stop into a store to see what I can buy. Being able to look up a rose I'm unfamiliar with helps me decide if it's going to be a good rose to try or more trouble than it's worth. It's a great resource for all of us however much we may be casual or serious grower of roses.

Seil - thanks for the reminder of the air-layering tool. I've meant to order one for a while and your reminder is good enough to do so this year.

Cynthia

BTW, in case anyone else is tempted, Lee Valley has free shipping over $40 through June 8. That would cover a set of 5 layering pots plus something else tempting from their catalog... Just sayin'!
Cynthia