Christopher, when you have time, do you think you could post a close-up of an open bloom? And of the calyx?

The first bloom from last year looks pretty small, but this year's blooms look larger- is that actually the case, or just a trick of perspective with the photo?

Also, since you seem to be thinking along the lines of Hybrid China, would it be possible to take a photo of a "NM" leaf next to a leaf from a known HC? Comparing and contrasting sometimes can be helpful.

I do not have the good fortune to be familiar with 'Felicite Parmentier', but will ask if her scent is considered typical for an Alba, or maybe a bit unusual for her class?

I'm certainly no rose expert, but I occasionally manage to blunder in the right direction, so I'll give it a try.

Virginia

Virginia, I'll be able to do that on Monday. This year's blooms are a bit larger -- and darker -- than last year's. That could be due to maturity and/or the "good stuff" I've been tossing in the beds.

The thing about Hybrid Chinas is that the term doesn't imply specifically what the other type of rose in the ancestry was -- only that they are the first-generation offspring of reblooming Chinas or Teas with once-blooming old Europeans. That they're like "stretched out" versions of the old Europeans is likely due to the China/Tea growth not being inhibited by reblooming -- wild once-blooming R. chinensis and R. gigantea are climbers. That's probably why they're usually larger than either parent.

I mentioned 'Felicite Parmentier' as a scent comparison because I remember it being like sweet baby powder. Another with a similar scent is my 'Duchesse d'Angouleme' (aka 'Wax Rose').

It looks like just another few days before 'Nouveau Monde' really gets going. Judging by the number of buds, I expect quite a show. Too bad it isn't known better.

:-)

~Christopher

Christopher, I'm glad she's such a great rose for you, whoever she really is. If someone here can ID her, or steer you in the right direction for your own ID, I know it will make it easier for you to extoll her virtues to others..

Looking forward to seing more pix.

Virginia

It does seem that the original 'NM' is extinct, or has drifted into obscurity. The rose grown in France as 'NM' is beautiful, though, and I suspect that yours will look like that with maturity.

http://historicroses.org/index.php?id=42

http://www.simolanrosario.com/a-uudet-sivut/uudet-gallikat/GALLICA-KUVAT-L-N/nouveaumonde.html

I'll see if I can find if anyone besides you has speculated about its true ID, and also look over some gallica/ hybrid gallica images to see if I see anyone who looks similar.

Virginia

Christopher your best best would be a trip in early June to François Joyaux's garden in France. He has one of the most complete gallica collections....

A cheaper version would be his book....

Maybe it is listed there....

Bob, this is what M. Joyaux had to say about 'Nouveau Monde' in the article above:

On the evidence some are attributable to Descemet, but the current specimens in the various public collections we have examined do not correspond to the contemporary descriptions. Also it is not at all certain that these varieties are still in cultivation. It is the case with ‘Cynthie’ at Sangerhausen and ‘d’Euphrosine’ (I’Elegante), ‘Nouveau monde’, ‘Passe-velours’ and ‘Roi des pourpres’ at L’Haÿ-les-Roses.

Unfortunately, none of his books are what I'd call affordable, though certainly a trip to France would cost more... Do you have any of his books? I was wondering if there might be any nice tidbits of info about the roses we've been researching in 'La Rose, une passion française'.

Virginia

Thanks Virginia for putting the excerpt here. I think with the FD translations, I've become too tired to focus otherwise.

No, unfortunately I don't have any of his books and they are pricey. I thought maybe Christopher might find a photo corresponding to his Nouveau Monde.

I know that Joyaux has done/ is doing a complete DNA analysis of his collection.
However, I don't know where this information will be stored, who will have access to it....

Thank you both!

I know that what now grows under the name 'Nouveau Monde' isn't the original. That's fine with me. I'm just wondering what this imposter is. The only image of it I've seen other than my own was the bloom pic at Vintage Gardens' website. I think I remember Mendocino_Rose mentioning she grows it, but never saw pics of her plant. I'm hoping she sees this thread.

I'd love to see how this rose does as a climber in a colder zone. Mine was green-to-the-tips after both Winters, so I'm thinking it'd be fine at least in zone 6. And it remains healthy for me without spraying. Sure, it's not as flashy as some other climbers, and it doesn't repeat, but it seems a shame that it's not more commonly grown. I'll try rooting some cuttings of it after the bloom finishes. If anyone wants to try it, respond in this thread.

:-)

~Christopher

That looks to be it, down to the canes and foliage. I'm thinking mine is a bit darker this year due to the dappled shade from the tree as it recovers from its scalping two years ago. Thanks for sharing!

:-)

~Christopher

I'm glad there are gardeners like you who are growing these rare old roses and preserving them for us all. Keep up the good work!

Christopher, I'm sorry i don't think I've gotten a photo of it and now the bloom is done. Mine is from Vintage. I thought it was a Hybrid China. It is light pink. I would say that even if it isn't the correct rose it is fabulous. Mine is mature now, a huge wonderful thing. It blooms better if you don't prune much.

Thanks so much! I barely pruned it at all -- just tucked last year's post-bloom growth back into the deck railing, and here and there removed a few pieces that simply wouldn't "do" what I wanted. And I see about why it blooms better with little pruning -- it seemed to mostly just leaf out last year's growth and bloom on that. Then, after bloom, starts actually "growing" again.

I'd love to hear from anyone in a colder zone than mine who may have tried this rose. Mine was green-to-the-tips after two unusually severe Winters. It may make for an easy-care cold-hardy climber.

:-)

~Christopher

Methinks you misunderstand the word 'cold'. Any climber worthy of being termed 'cold-hardy' has to be tip hardy to at least -15F. Since Bonica and many Austins wimp out around -13F, that's where you lose a lot of the 'hardy', as opposed to 'tender' climbers. -20F is a better test.

Given that my first thought on looking at photos of this thing is that is has a certain resemblance to Gem of the Prairies, it being a truly hardy climber isn't out of the question. However, I seriously doubt that you have seen temperatures that even come close to a true test of anything.

Well, that's why I said "I'd love to hear from anyone in a colder zone than mine who may have tried this rose." I was thinking that no Winter damage here would translate to (likely) some in zone 6a, but possibly leave enough height to still work as a climber. After bloom-time finishes here, I'm going to try rooting some cuttings of it. Would you want to try it in zone 5?

:-)

~Christopher

I'll try to get out tomorrow to take a photo. There actually is one bloom left.

I couldn't get a decent photo. I would say though that the photo Virginia posted looks like what I am growing.

I'd be very interested in torture testing Nouveau Monde so long as it is reasonable shade tolerant. I have a fair number of shade trees, so nowhere gets all day sun, and the best spots are for things that need it more than roses.

I would've loved one too, to give it a Canuck style testing, similar to that of MG's, if it weren't for the border crossing complication, eh?!

I was going to purchase Nouveau Monde from Vintage in a final purchase a few years back but was not sure how it would do in my zone. MidEastern Pa Zone 6. We had a few temps of -19 F last winter ( my area seems to see lower temperatures, then some surrounding areas, more like a cold pocket, due to mountain formation etc ) and I lost a few over it. But If you wanted it tested I would take a cutting. I've had the worst of luck with roses in general lately, and if I can grow it, then it must be very hard to kill :)

OK! I started a round of cuttings from just three roses, which I can easily tell apart without labeling. I ordered simple stick-labels, which should be coming in the next few days, so then I'll be able to take cuttings of others -- including 'Nouveau Monde'. As soon as I know how many I have that have rooted, I'll post the count in this thread. But it might not be for a month or two. I'll pass them on to anyone willing to pay for shipping.

Mine still has buds that haven't opened yet, but I wonder how many will survive all the heavy rain we've gotten and will continue to get for the next few days.

:-)

~Christopher