Okay, so you got the "grape growing bug" huh? Many people live in their homes for over 20 years and from day one often thought about growing some sort of fruit tree or another yet put it off for some reason. Many of their neighbours could be known to have such trees and could have planted them 10, 20 or even 30 years ago and its odd that most people don't pickup on that and get going themselves. Now for the real speech when it comes to growing grapes. Your best bet is to hit the garden centers in the spring and you'll probably pay about 10 bucks or so for a gallon pail with a vine in it. Buy at least 3 so they have company :) That's the easiest way and most newbies can do it this way. Once your vine(s) starts producing fruit, no matter what you initially paid to get it all going, the amount your vines yield will far exceed the low startup costs. Those thinking ahead to next spring should be doing many many other things right now-during the fall and yep, sometimes some of it can be done during the winter too. There's a fair amount of prep to get ready for your vines that will be available at the garden centers or nurseries next spring. First of all you should check with some of them and find out exactly when they get them each year and they'll give you a close enough date. Before that though, you have to worry about where you'll position these ever-advancing vines, you can't really change them to another location later on unless you are pretty lucky or you get advice from someone with more experience. Soil bed preperation is very very important and you'll need to prepare some kind of trellis-these things get realllll heavy too so be prepared to build strong supports. Choices for supports are the older cast iron plumbing pipes that are often ripped out of renovated homes and you use angle joiners etc. to make an overhead trellis. You can also use thick posts such as 4X4's-the kind used for fence building and build something that resembles a child's jungle gym. If you plan on placing the vines near your home, you can use thick wire or thick nylon mesh, or wooden lattice affixed to the home's walls to support the vines but remember this, the vines and fruit can weigh well into the hundreds of pounds during the years they produce decent amounts. Trust me on this too, you need to read read and then read about proper yearly maintenance-fertilizer, soil testing, cutting/pruning back once in awhile. Yeah I know, its sad to cut back something you desire to keep growing really fast but it IS important to do this, the pruning part is important to get rid of slow or poorly growing shoots and once pruned, the vines seem to take off once again. The dead stuff you ignore, stresses the vine s even more so get rid of the ugly stuff and treat the vines with the respect they deserve. Yep, some people I know have grown pretty good Concords and work at it alot all summer long and then again, some I know just abuse the heck out of them-the usual "I inherited these with the home I bought and I hate the things so I hope they die thing." The latter seem to grow more aggressively and maybe just maybe they're telling the guy something ya think (spite?)? To summarize the yearly yield thing here in as short an answer as possible, they do NOT always grow ALOT each year and some years they seem to just need a break as do crabapple trees and plum trees too. I live in the western part of Canada, we get pretty nice weather starting in May and it usually goes right until Halloween and almost always the grapes have been picked by then. I still have some Concords ripening right now, has alot to do with the fact we haven't had any frost this time of year but its coming. For making wine from these grapes, the first frost seems to help and they've always ripened at that point but frost seems to increase their sugar content without rotting them by then. Lastly, "if" you can find a friend or neighbour or someone in your city who's willing to provide you with some cuttings, try them too, you might be surprised in how well they grow. For this thread, too much to explain at why you could get some right now and keep them in the refrigerator (in peat moss) and they'd be okay to start next spring if so desired. Google it or search around and you'll find out how easy that really is. Yes I know, some things seem quite bizarre but strange things can and do work and I use this example: Where I live almost all seeds for the garden advise against planting anything until after the last frost. Well, on a package of dill seeds it also advises this. This year's dill will drop alot of stray seeds in my garden and come next spring when the garden is near frozen, I've got seedlings going-everywhere! Also, root crops can be planted late in the fall and by next spring they do start growing on their own. Carrots are easy and carrot seeds started now will lay dormant during the 6 months I'll see snow on the ground and then they'll grow with a vengeance next spring. Beets, turnips, some onions etc.-same thing, plant now. I've used these examples because for the grapes, they're even hardier than the dill and carrots so if they can grow here under many different conditions, harsh winters and serious owner neglect, if you are more serious and dedicated to growing your own for jelly, juice and wine etc., then you shouldn't have much to worry about. Personally, I'm quite serious about it and I protect my vines very well each winter-going on 12 years now-they need to be placed where there's little traffic around them and do NOT trample on their beds when the earth is rock-solid frozen if you can help it. Same goes for the spring when they put alot of energy into pushing away their former "winter blues." And for heaven's sakes, put aside the budget-starter-from-seed-thing and pay the nurseries or garden centers for the things they import each year and you'll be glad you did. When you need a helping hand, I'm sure they'll help as much as they possibly can. Grape vines can also teach you alot about patience to be sure. Good luck and I hope this addition reaches those who've asked before me....

Enjoyed the links posted here. Here's my own 2 cents on this. I do all the seeding for a CSA (about 70 boxes per week), sow about 300 lettuce seeds a week for 7 months straight. The first and second year made many mistakes and got poor germination. Putting lettuce trays on heat mats did reduce greatly the germination rate. Putting the trays in a unheated hoop house also didn't work, it got too hot during the day. Now we just leave them outside. In spring gets down to 45F at night, maybe 55F during day. We use automatic overhead sprinklers, so the trays get over watered every day. Our seedling table must provide water for all the seedlings so must water enough for the largest plants. To prevent damping off, use a 1:1 perlite:peat mix (Black Gold seedling mix) with some sifted compost included 4:1 mix:compost. The overall mix is light and airy. A coir based mix didn't work, stayed too wet. Use only solid fertilizers, liquid ones get washed away with the overwatering. For the mix, I add in crabshell meal (Eliot Coleman recommendation), greensand, and soft phosphate. When I added in bloodmeal or fish meal to the mix I got damping off. To much available nitrogen. When the seedlings are about an inch tall, I sprinkle a mixture of bloodmeal and sifted compost over them. This gives them the needed nitrogen and once an inch high, I've never had any damping off. To save time I never tap the seeds into the mix. After filling the tray with mix, just drop/bang the tray against the table 4 times to get the mix to settle to a good firmness. Put the seeds on top and add a layer of fine vermiculite and overhead water. The fine vermiculite layer noticeably increased our germination rate on all seeds. Keeps the top moist and more importantly protects an emerged seedling from fungus. The vermiculite is sterile.

Justin, Try it. You might just get a great new apple. I have planted apple, pear, and peach seeds. Peach seeds or pits, I did plant years ago and got real nice peaches from the trees. Pears and apples I planted them 2 yrs ago, and the trees are still too young to bear fruit--I hope someday they will bear some. Of course, I planted the seeds the lazy--or easy--way. Sometime in the winter (I live in zone 5. Used seeds from fruit I had just bought from a supermarket.) I planted the seeds in the ground, covered them with dirt--the small seeds not too deep, the peach pits deeper. In the spring they sprouted. Just make sure you mark the spot where you plant your seeds; this way, you wont pull them out as weeds--something I often do. I'm sure you are doing this for fun, so enjoy and learn. Hey, After 5 summers, I just got my first flowers from oriental lilies that I started from seed...Most of them look just like their parents...2 look different, but I have seen the same type of flowers in catalogs. Good luck, but most important: Happy Gardening!!!

If you look at the thread below with newbie in the title two of us have been discussing aids to germination with variious hormones/chemicals. But that's for seeds that are very very old. Are your muscadine seeds old or you just haven't discovered how folks do germinate them? In which case per haps a visit to the Forum here where grapes are discussed if the info isn't on the web? Knitrate is also known by the old term of saltpeter and can usually be found in a drug store since it's also used in food preservation and some other uses as well. If not, you'll have to go to a local high school and speak to the chemistry teacher to get some b/c at least here in the US it can't be shipped to individuals. And that's b/c it's used in the manufacture of TNT. LOL Carolyn, who has to answer MM in the thread I just refer red to but will get to that later. But to answer one question, it's the nitrate ion that's known to be involved in germination of seeds, thus the use of dilute granular fertilizers or Knitrate. Again, primarily for old seeds. But as I said below, comparing this and that I still feel hydration is the primary issue.