Never use lime without a soil test specifically stating you need it, need exactly the type of lime you purchased, and know exactly how much to use when. This is yet another case where I'm going to recommend a Logan Labs soil test--for $25, they (and I) will nail down everything about your soil chemistry and fix it.

Sand actually isn't a barrier to a gorgeous lawn--in some ways, it's a great soil with lots of penetrating air for root systems, which makes the roots grow deep and long and wide. It does have special watering needs, but even those aren't extreme.

The April feeding (and weeding) was actually a huge mistake. It's tapping the root systems (which from the limited tufts in the above probably aren't any great shakes at the moment) to support excess growth. We can get around that, but, again, soil test. I have a suspicion about phosphorus levels from what I can see above, and that changes the feeding type.

Tilling is never, never recommended. You'll end up with a bumpy, disturbed soil that has poor water channeling (not usually much of a problem on sand, however). The soil can take years to correct itself, and quite often the bumps are permanent.

You can always top dress with about 1/4" of compost and let it sit. Natural processes, including the worms that will enjoy the compost, will move it in for you. More can be added as soon as you see mostly soil at the surface again.

Thanks for jumping in so fast. I will get the soil test done pronto. Should I take samples just of the sandy spots or should I take 4 or 5 different samples from sections. my yard is really a tale of many stories, based on visuals at least. Moss here, Sand there, etc. But maybe an inch down its all really the same.

I am sure this question has been asked but why does Scotts tell you to put the Weed and Feed Crabgrass preventer on so early. ("Scotts Turf Builder Halts Crabgrass Preventer with Lawn Food") is exactly what I used. It sounds like that's never a good idea. Just marketing tactics? I will spot treat the new weeds with a herbicide type sprayer unless you have a different suggestion

I will look into how many yards I need to top dress this much area at 1/4"

I really need to continue to get the ant control population under control which also exists in my front yard tho not nearly as bad. Any issues with the bug b gone to the soil and future growth? Like killing good insects to, those worms you mentioned.

Again thanks for your time.

Wrong thread.

If the soil profile is identical down below an inch, you can combine all the samples and just get one test. That top inch isn't all that significant in terms of the soil profile.

If there are areas that act very differently from other areas, a separate test might be appropriate there. We sometimes see soils with split personalities depending on your location on the property, reflecting places where topsoil was removed or added. Usually, post-balancing, all the soils can then be combined into one test in the future again.

>>Just marketing tactics? I will spot treat the new weeds with a herbicide type sprayer unless you have a different suggestion

Yep. If they did things the way the lawn actually wanted them (northern lawns, anyway, as southern lawns differ considerably), they'd have no income during winter or summer, minor income in spring, and the lion's share in fall. Early spring is completely the wrong time to seed, feed, Weed N Feed, and just about do anything other than sit and wait for things to come back. Appropriately feeding your lawn the fall before means spring is a season to enjoy it, mow it, water if absolutely necessary, and otherwise ignore it.

First feeding of the lawn should be around Memorial Day (with synthetics) or sometime in early to middling-late May (with organics). I still haven't gotten my lawn feeding down yet, but that's not an issue. I'm using soybean meal, have a wide window, and currently busy assembling the gardens.

I'll be much more prompt with the fall feedings, targeting pretty close to August 1, September 1, and October 1. Then winterize when top growth stops with a synthetic, probably around Thanksgiving, give or take. A lot.

An herbicide sprayer for your application is perfect!

With the Bug B Gon, I'd try to target the anthills specifically as the stuff does, indeed, have an impact on your insect population (99% of which, even the ants, is on the list of helpful insects). I try to ignore ants in the lawn and gardens as much as possible--but they certainly aren't allowed anywhere where they could come in the house. I use alternate methods of control that aren't realistic for the middle of the yard (Terro, mostly).

Re: YardTractor1. >> I didn't see a thread for "complete disaster lawn" so, I went with this one. Feel free to direct me to the correct thread. Based on the other posts in this section, it seemed appropriate.

Anywho. Will collect samples. Read up on the Logans Lab site in regards to samples and will post back once I get results. Thanks!

I think yardtractor was saying that he made a comment in the wrong thread and then had to erase it.

Many of us here and around the other lawn forums have switched to organics for most (or all) of our feeding. The reasons are that organics work to make the lawn green and dense, it's hard to make a mistake in applying, and the cost is comparable if you know not to rely on compost. One of the benefits of organics is the microbes, insects, and predatory birds, toads, and lizards will come into a natural balance. What this means to you is the ants will seemingly go away "by themselves" as Nature takes care of business. Many ants are actually farmers. They bring back sweet objects or meaty objects to the ant hill and then tend to them as different bacteria and fungi grow on the stuff they brought in. The ants eat the resulting bacteria and fungi. If you modify the biology of the environment by applying organics and deep watering, the ants farms will collapse and they die from lack of food.

Why would Scott's tell you you need fertilizer? Why would a shoe sales man tell you you need new shoes? The 4-step program is a ploy so they can make their yacht payments all year long. Besides when you apply fertilizer too early, the lawn ends up turning really bad in late May which usually results in buying a lot more Scott's products. They have a vested interest in getting you to do it incorrectly.

Using an insecticide is a bad idea because one of the larger classes of microbes you want in the soil is microarthropods. Those little guys are microscopic insects. Killing them off would be like killing off all the fish in the world. Rebalancing the food web gets harder when an entire class disappears from the middle. It is better if you can let Nature do it. I would simply begin by deep watering.

Deep watering means 1 full inch all at one time. Place some cat food or tuna cans out in the yard and time how long it takes your sprinklers to fill all the cans. Remember that time because that's your new watering time. Mine takes 8 hours while my neighbor's takes 20 minutes. You need to time this for yourself. Then let the soil dry out completely for about 2 weeks. This dry/wet cycling can drive some insects crazy enough to move out. Grass, on the other hand, thrives best with this dry/wet cycling. So remember your watering time. If, after 3 applications of deep water, your ants seem to be loving it, then we can pull out some other organic solutions that drive ants crazy. One is to trick them to bring yeast to the farm. Another is to apply sugar directly to protein ants. As morph indicated, ants will soon be the least of your worries.

Morph mentioned using soybean meal as a fertilizer. You mentioned using compost. I like to compare the cost of the two and let you decide. In my neighborhood it costs $75 per cubic yard to get compost delivered. The application rate for compost is 1 cubic yard per 1,000 square feet. So my cost for compost is $75 per 1,000 square feet. Soybean meal might cost you $15 per bag. The application rate is 15 pounds per 1,000 square feet. That amounts to $4.50 per 1,000 square feet. Applying several yards of compost will ruin a weekend and most of Monday with aches. Applying a bag of soybean meal will take an hour pushing a fertilizer spreader. Compost is a poor source of nitrogen which explains why it takes 700 pounds per 1,000 square feet. Soybean meal is an excellent source which explains why it takes 15 pounds. You can smother your grass with compost if you do it wrong, and doing it right takes extra hours. You can't do any harm with soybean meal although if you apply too much, you'll get an aroma of sour milk for a couple days. So for an application of organics, I would suggest that compost is the worst possible thing in the organic arsenal. I realize that 100,000,000 Rodailans can't be wrong, but I think they are. Rodale wrote the book on compost in the 1930s and it wasn't rewritten until the 1990s. We've learned a lot since then.

So to summarize an answer to your simple question: start deep and infrequent watering now. Apply some organic fertilizer on a monthly schedule. Leave the mass herbicides and insecticides off the area for the time being. If you need to spot spray some weeds, use a liquid like Weed-b-Gone (another Scott's product). The liquid minimizes the amount of chemicals on the yard.

Here are two motivational pictures. The first is a test plot where alfalfa pellets were used as an organic fertilizer. The picture was taken in June a full month after the fertilizer was applied.

This next one is morph's lawn. He's organic, deep and infrequent, almost never uses herbicide or insecticide, and he mows at almost the highest notch on his mower. The picture was taken in July a couple years ago.

Morph's neighbors are more likely to water every day. They both use the same amount of water, but his grass has deeper roots to get the deep water. His soil is likely cooler, too, with the deeper watering. There are a couple other differences between his lawn and theirs, but I would be confusing you with too much information.

Hi dchall, I didnt see a new response in my email until just now. First, Thanks for taking the time to write all that up. I am trying to learn as much as I can. So much info. I use to live out West in the high desert. I had .10 acre, installed sprinklers and dropped sod and it was a piece of cake. Now, upstate NY, 2 acres. no grass or not much and this house is 20 years old. Id love to ask the previous owners if they tried to make it this bad.

Anyhow, I am 100% in on organics. But until about a week ago, I literally never even knew about them. If I can save tons of money and not have to buy compost, 100% in. I just figured the Sand was garbage for grass growing and I would need topsoil/Compost but quickly learning, That might be all wrong.

Logan Labs called me today for a quick question and have my samples. I sent them 5 samples as areas of my yard seem quite different. So in a few days hopefully I will have more information

One thing I have been worried about is watering. I have what is called a drop pipe well and this house was a foreclosure. I basically have no idea how much available water is out there and if its into some underground spring or what. supposedly there is plenty (Gallon per minute type tests at inspection) and I have yet had any issue with 5 loads of laundry in a weekend day but I am a little concerned about trying to water 2 acres and my water supply. I definitely will not install a sprinkler system, at least anytime soon, but I am willing to move my hose around and what not. How many gallons of water would it take to do an entire lawn? seems like Hundreds per week. I don't know. Course one load of laundry is probably 40.

I have very bad crabgrass right now. I spent about an hour today and 2 gallons spot spraying. This is probably from the stupid Scott product I was conned on. Nearly my entire front yard is crabgrass. So much for crabgrass preventer products.

Do you recommend I wait for the Lab test to start with soybean meal or go for it now?

As for the Ants, I did already do one round of insecticide as my dog was getting hammer with teas and ticks from my pictured area. I don't want to do it again except for my monthly barrier treatments, so hopefully as things correct, I wont need to. More have already come back but I am leaving them be. It was unbelievably bad at first. Poeple didnt even want to walk on certain sections.

By the way, Id be more then happy if my lawn even looked like either of those 3 pictures!

Thanks again!

Jeff

Watering is, technically, optional. It means I wouldn't expect a great looking lawn in July and August, but it doesn't absolutely have to be done.

My general rule is to say that lawns have to be maintained and irrigated (if necessary, which it often isn't) through July 4th. Post that, dealer's choice...the remaining summer is short enough that northern lawns will survive it even if they see not one drop of rain until September. They won't be happy, they'll go dormant, but they'll survive.

Which doesn't mean you have to bother with the entire two acres. Just the areas around the house that see use would be entirely sufficient, and you might even keep those up during July and August.

Each thousand square feet, if you got no rain and applied the recommended 1 inch of water, would require about 650 gallons. Two full acres is close to 57,000 gallons. Weekly.

The soybean meal (or any other organic) can go now. It won't change anything on your soil test except a slight uptick in your organic matter, and from the photos? We'll take any uptick we can get any time we can get it. If the soil's deeper profile is anything like the images above, there's not much organic material in there.

Crabgrass...well, crabgrass just happens. This year, post ten days of July-like weather here, I have massive outbreaks through the winter-weakened lawn and gardens. I used Tenacity to take those down, but Weed B Gon with Crabgrass Control is also a good product for that.

For fleas and ticks, definitely treat. My mother's dog just had two removed by the groomer, so we're going to treat my mom's place for them. As well as treating the dog with an OTC flea and tick protection that the groomer recommended. I'm probably also going to whip up some pH balanced peppermint soap appropriate for dog skin as fleas absolutely detest peppermint (human soaps should not be used on dogs, they're too alkaline, just FYI).

Five samples? I guess I have my work cut out for me when those come back! Fortunately, it's likely that several will all be in the same ballpark. I'll fold things together as I can, and separate recommendations for each area as required.

And lastly, sand is not garbage for grass, but does present its own unique challenges. Of course, so do silt and clay. And you may not have pure sand, your EC will give me a guide to your soil profile.

You can also do the (free, at home) jar test to get a handle on your soil makeup. That can be useful to know as it's a guide on how to water, and what root depths to expect. Sand holds the smallest amount of water, clay the most, but silt (in the middle) has the largest amount of water available to plants. Clay very tightly binds some of the water and the plant can't free it. With extremely sandy soil, 1" a week may be a mistake.

Another thought. Soybean meal is great in May, August, September, and October.

For the rest of the summer, you still want organic matter flowing in (for now), but don't need or need to pay for the nitrogen/protein in soybean (to us organic folks, protein is the nitrogen source).

Cracked corn, oat hulls, rice hulls, or whatever else is incredibly cheap but low protein is great to add OM, maintain a weak flow of nitrogen, feed the soil organisms with fresh material, and slightly mulch your soil.

Again, with two acres, that's a bit much. However, just the area around the house that you use (that 21,000 square feet from the original) wouldn't be too much of a stretch.

Ill have to think more about the watering. The two original pictures calculate to be about 4500 sq feet. Thats about 2900 gallons of water per week just for those two areas. If I don't have lush green lawns in July and Aug or just lush green lawn in two areas for those months, it will be fine. Both my neighbors water heavily and often (which is probably bad). Twice a day and short on sprinkler systems. Similar acres tho i don't think they water out back. Probably. They have artisan wells but maybe there is way more water here then I think. I also don't need to fix all 21000 at one time. the less traveled areas can take a back seat, and take less stuff while I learn and see what works,etc. One part is all moss and I probably need to get over grown tree limbs down first to get sun there. The pictured areas are priority one I guess.

I've already began searching for Soybean Meal Locally. This might be harder to find then I thought. Any suggestions on where to go. Type of places that would carry this or the other few things you mentioned above? What does OM mean? Once monthly?

As for 5 samples, Sorry. I have a feeling 4 are the same and 1 is different based on visuals.

Looks like Local Tractor Supply at least has cracked corn. 50ibs, 8 bucks. Looks like its for farm type animals but same thing or no?

Oh, well, 4,500 square feet is much more workable. And again, you can pick and choose, or simply not water in July and August and let nature take its course. The other months, far less water will be needed due to the lower temperatures and higher rainfall.

Watering targets 1" of water, all at once, once a week maximum. However, for very sandy soils, that can move down as low as 0.5" at once, twice a week.

You can get soybean meal at animal feed stores, grain mills, and farmer's co-ops. However, if you can't find it, all is not lost. Milorganite is available at most big box stores and is a comparable replacement--use it at 20 pounds per thousand square feet as opposed to soybean meal's 15 pounds per thousand square feet.

Don't worry about the samples, I like a challenge. :-)

And yep, feed grade cracked corn is perfect. It's cheaper than human food-grade corn meal by miles, it's the same stuff, the quality just isn't quite as high. For tossing it on the lawn, that doesn't matter as the chemistry is the same.

Corn is not a good feeding, it's just there for improving organic material in the soil. Plus it gives some control of fungal diseases, although that's rather gentle.

Ok. I have seen Milorganite at the big boxes. I will continue to search for SBM. There are many large farms around so it has to be somewhere bagged. Although I am sure most farms by it by the semi truck.

So this weekend I am going to do 20ibs per 1000 feet of Milorganite. I am going to drop that in my main front lawn (8000sqfeet) and the side/back (4500sqfeet). Approx 260 pounds total if my math is right. I will be getting some exercise!

I do want to get going on improving the Organic matter for a fall seeding (unless you tell me this fall seeding will be wasted) so I assume I can drop the Corn right after this? Same day or wait a week? What is the drop rate for that or should we wait for the tests back?

I have a 50ib yellow bag of scotts weed and feed. I think I am going to return it to recover some of the costs of the Milorganite. There is no reason to hold it right? Sounds like the only synthetic anyone uses here is in the final fall feeding and that's probably not this product.

There's no reason to use the Weed and Feed, the Milo will do the feeding part all by itself--and you can spot spray to weed, which is a better idea anyway.

You can drop corn at the same time if you want, or wait until later if it's a stress for you. It only takes about three weeks to start working and corn is very mild and won't add a great deal of nitrogen anyway. Normal rates for corn are 10-20 pounds per thousand square feet, although you can go right up to sixty pounds per thousand if you want to.

A fall seeding sounds realistic offhand, although your soil tests may come back and tell us to wait until next year. That's highly improbable.

OK thanks. Cracked corn and Refined sewage this weekend it is! Will post back once I receive the soil workups. I will prob go on the low end for the corn right now just due to budget.

Don't forget the extremely cheap to free organics! If you have a local brewery, call them and see if they'll give you their spent brewer's grains. To them, it's a useless waste product they pay to have hauled off. To you, it's an organic source that will be extremely inexpensive to completely free (just bring your own buckets).

Starbucks coffee stores, and many local ones, will give you their spent coffee grounds at no cost. Starbucks even presses excess water out of them and puts them in bags marked "Grounds for Compost." Just toss 'em down at whatever rate and let them work.

Garden waste can be mowed up and bagged, then scattered back over the lawn as long as it doesn't have a lot of viable seed in it. Even if it does, most of that can still go back on the lawn as most annuals/perennials won't tolerate being mowed.

Your local community may have a composting facility where you can get compost cheap or free. But evaluate the compost; the stuff my township produces is terrible, underdone, and damages plants. Even in that case, a quarter inch across the property isn't going to harm anything, it simply shouldn't be dug into the soil under any circumstances or applied at much greater than a quarter inch at a time.

Normally, I'd say mulch mowing your lawn, but in your case you don't have a lot of lawn to mulch mow. Still, I'll take it.

However...do your neighbors mow, bag, and put it out on the curb? Steal it and spread it on your lawn, as long as you can see that the lawn you're taking it from is weed and disease free.

Leafy greens that go bad can be torn apart by hand and scattered on the lawn. Yes, you may attract rabbits. That's good, they may come to eat, but they'll stay to poo. Again, it's not a large amount, but I'm not inclined to be particular in this case.

You wouldn't believe the amount of time i spent raking leaves and pulling them into the woods just before winter. I am talking 25-30 full size heavy tarp loads. Sigh! Not far back from the swing in the first picture is where it all is.

I didnt and still dont have a working mower at this time but plan to get one in the next month to cut what little grass is growing. I will have to make sure I find one that is good at mulching because I will have an insane amount of leaves in the fall again. I should pull the leaves back in to my sandy areas since its not far and mulch them when I get that mower?

I did forget to mention that I have a near unlimited supply of horse manure. Tho it is two hours from home. My in laws have two horses. I need to get them to start trucking it over each visit. Prob smell terrible and make the neighbors mad but I bet they will equally happy to see someone finally taking care of the grass like they do. If you think that could make an incredible difference, I will have to bug them some more. It might be a bit of hassle but again if worth it, I will do it.

I'm going to start throwing my own spent coffee grounds into a bucket and then onto the lawn. Every little bit helps right. We drink a lot coffee

It's theoretically possible...if you're motivated...to bring the leaves back from the Great Woodland Pile and drop them on your lawn. Once you get a mower that can mulch them, of course.

Horse manure? Hum, if composted fully, it can be a very useful addition. Raw, however, it's asking for trouble--it's "hot," which means it contains a lot of available nitrogen and decay organisms are extremely active. That tends to damage plants it's applied around, something like overapplying blood meal.

So if you can establish a good compost bin or pile for it, great. If not, skip it.

Edited to Add: In this case, I'd spread the leaves reasonably evenly across the lawn (a blower works well for that). I have no reason to think that the soil profile differs anywhere else, so it can all benefit. Not that I'd object if you pile up a bit more on the sandy areas, mind you. Not at all!

Going back in history on this...OM = organic matter.

Here's how you collect and use horse manure for compost. You need one 5-gallon bucket, a shovel, and lots of 9-gallon plastic garbage bags. Double line the inside of the bucket with plastic bags and put about 2 gallons of dung into the bags. Tie that off, remove, and repeat. If you get the bags too full it will be hard to carry. And you can pile these things up and up and up to carry them in a trunk (for example). When you get them, dump them next to your leaf pile and cover the dung with the leaves. The leaves will absorb the aroma of the horse manure. It works. The temp inside that pile will get upwards of 150 degrees F. When it cools off the smell should be mostly gone. Then you can mix the manure and the leaves together. Keep the pile moist, but not soggy. When the smell is completely gone and it begins to smell very fresh, the compost is considered finished.

If you use sawdust be absolutely sure it is from untreated wood. The reason you cannot use wood dust from Lowe's or HD is that they cut treated wood and untreated. The treated wood will sterilize your soil for at least 10 years. Ask me how I know that!!!

Refined sewage? Milorganite is made by taking class 2 sewage (the really nasty stuff that has been processed anerobically) and drying it in ovens to reach 180 degrees F. That kills all the pathogens, but it's not much of a refinement.

Hey guys, I received the soil samples back. Upon my review, I have absolutely no idea what any of it means! For reference, "BackYard" and "WestSide" are the two pictures above.

I also put down "Milwaukee Poop" as discussed above this weekend just in case that impacts any recommendations. As always, Thank you! - Jay

-Edit. These photos came out to small. Working to Improve

Iiiiiinteresting. Everything except Front Yard Bare is close enough to fold together (I'm going to target high-midrange on the average for the other four). Front Yard Bare presents some challenges. Below, in the discussion, FYB (Front Yard Bare) is the second number, and the second set of recommendations below.

EC 2.5/2.6: Sand. Pour on the organics from any source to retain a little more water, raise the EC a touch, and increase soil life. Test yearly.

OM 1.5-ish/3.0: Poor in most locations, Fair on FYB. As noted, pour the stuff on. I'd like to see Excellent to Extraordinary to just "Wow!" on this number, but that will take years. Not one single fall leaf should leave your property, and importing would be a good idea.

Sulfur 15-ish everywhere: Great, with lots of margin to play with.

Phosphorus 250+ in all locations: Fine! None required, and you have the margin for leaching for a while.

Calcium 55-60%/37%: A tad low in most areas, and extremely low in the bare area. In the bare area, this is what's limiting lawn growth along with magnesium and potassium (K is discussed below). Purchase Mag-I-Cal or Encap calcitic lime--cheaper limes require more material, aren't as effective, work more slowly, and contain elements I don't want to add, or am adding in different ways.

Magnesium 20+%/12%: While a tad low in the four other areas, it's not a concern at the moment. The high percentages are being generated by a slight calcium deficiency and moderate potassium deficiency. These should settle down by next year.

Potassium 5-ish%/3.3%: While OK by the numbers, the soil is short and there's no great soil storage for potassium. Adding calcium will lower these percentages and they really need to be held where they are (or boosted in FYB). Most landscape or garden stores will order potassium sulfate (sulfate of potash) for you, or you can get it online.

Sodium 4-5%: Technically fatal by the percentages, the actual numbers are low and the percent is being boosted by your EC. Still, I really want to abolish this, but it's optional. Most landscape stores or garden shops (a common theme) can order or have gypsum in stock, I've even seen it at my local Home Depot on occasion. Actual application levels are given at 10 pounds per thousand, but a bit more wouldn't go amiss in this soil. Just sayin'.

Minor Elements: I'd love to ignore boron but I can't. Copper is also very low and zinc is no great shakes. Iron's actually OK, but I mention it below as well.

Boron, Copper, Zinc: We use 20 Mule Team Borax as the boron source, copper sulfate as the copper source, and zinc sulfate as the zinc source. This prescription is very specific, so be careful on application! We'll use Milorganite (or you can use Ocean Gro if you can get that cheaper) as the carrier.

In a wheelbarrow or the like, dump the Milo. Spraying very, very lightly with water (I use a spray bottle like the kind people use to damp their clothes when they iron) will help the boron stick. Add the recommended amount of chemicals and stir, spraying occasionally to get the stuff to stick to the Milo. Then apply over the recommended area. So if going for bag rate Milorganite (1 bag per 2,500 square feet), you'd add 10 tablespoons of 20 Mule Team Borax, 7.5 tablespoons of copper sulfate, and 7.5 tablespoons of zinc sulfate.

You can purchase 20 Mules at your local grocery store in the laundry section.

Copper sulfate is available at most pool stores, or online at: http://www.ebay.com/itm/2LBS-Copper-Sulfate-99-Pure-Powder-FAST-FREE-SHIPPING-INCLUDED-IN-PRICE-/271862689893?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0amp;hash=item3f4c477065

Zinc sulfate is available online at: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Zinc-Sulfate-Monohydrate-Powder-35-5-Zn-2-Pounds-/370418311221?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0amp;hash=item563ea6e035

I expect to be working with copper and zinc again next year (boron as well, but 20 Mules is easily available), so I'd get enough for 2 years at minimum.

Iron 110-130 or so: Entirely sufficient, but not high enough to generate great color on the lawn you don't really have yet... To add both iron and some organic material, you can apply Ocean Gro or Milorganite any time you like (for you, Ocean Gro is probably cheaper and essentially the same stuff).

Recommendations, Four Areas:

June 1: Apply 2 pounds per thousand square feet of Encap or Mag-I-Cal calcitic lime. Apply 10 pounds per thousand gypsum.

June 15: Apply 4 tablespoons 20 Mule Team Borax, 3 tablespoons of copper sulfate, and 3 tablespoons of zinc sulfate per thousand square feet.

July 1: Apply 2 pounds per thousand square feet of potassium sulfate (you might want to go to 3 pounds on the east side).

August 1: Apply 2 pounds per thousand square feet of potassium sulfate (you might want to go to 3 pounds on the east side).

September 1: Apply 2 pounds per thousand square feet of Encap or Mag-I-Cal calcitic lime.

September 15: Apply 2 pounds per thousand square feet of potassium sulfate (you might want to go to 3 pounds on the east side).

Recommendations, Front Yard Bare:

June 1: Apply 5 pounds per thousand square feet of Encap or Mag-I-Cal calcitic lime. Apply 10 pounds per thousand gypsum.

June 15: Apply 4 tablespoons 20 Mule Team Borax, 3 tablespoons of copper sulfate, and 3 tablespoons of zinc sulfate per thousand square feet.

July 1: Apply 3 pounds per thousand square feet of potassium sulfate.

August 1: Apply 3 pounds per thousand square feet of potassium sulfate.

September 1: Apply 4 pounds per thousand square feet of Encap or Mag-I-Cal calcitic lime.

September 15: Apply 3 pounds per thousand square feet of potassium sulfate.

Oh, I didn't mention the pH and why I'm applying calcitic lime to a high pH soil.

A lot of your pH is being generated by the sodium ions at high percentage in your soil. Sodium is intensely alkaline (sodium hydroxide is actually the alkaline material against which others are measured, and very dangerous in pure form).

The gypsum will chemically combine with some of that sodium, throwing it away as sodium sulfate (a salt). The calcium, a lower-alkaline ion, will displace some as well, overall lowering your pH.

With normal sodium levels, your soil should be balancing more than half a point lower on the pH scale. We'll probably be abolishing more sodium next year as I don't want to kick this soil too hard all at once.

OK. wow that's a lot of information thank you. So right now I am targeting the June 1st work. Approx 41 pounds of the Lime and 160 pounds of gypsum to buy. I will start searching for gypsum this weekend. The Limes you mentioned look to be carried at Ace Hardware. I have seen the Borax before at the grocery store. Almost used that to kill Ants in a home made bait trap.

Also the FYB hasnt had sun in probably 15 years. I spent my entire weekend with a pole saw cutting back the over grown limbs and trees. Pine and Oak. I took out 8 backhoe buckets worth. (My neighbor happen to have one that day and helped me out.) Getting much more sun now tho still some Shade. Will likely need shade type grass. Hopefully it will all help tho. Looks better at least.

Speaking of grass. Will I be dropping seed in the fall? And what would kind of mixes or type be recommended. Thanks!

You can seed in mid-August if you want, or whenever temperatures just start to drop off their summer highs. If you do decide to do that, the September first application of lime should drop back to August 1 at the same time as the potassium sulfate. It's not optimal, but it'll work--the soil's likely to bind a bit less potassium than it otherwise would have in August.

The September 15th potassium application can stay where it is. That stuff is very gentle and won't cause a problem with chlorosis on the new lawn.

I think I'd choose a fescue/KBG blend for this lawn. The fescue has deeper roots, but as the soil improves the KBG will help fill in the holes, which will also keep the lawn from having to be reseeded in the future. At first, I wouldn't expect fantastic performance from the KBG due to the sandy profile and low EC.

Hi guys. All is well. Today went down the gypsum and Magical. The gypsum wasn't peletalized (is that a word) and man that was a pain in the spreader. Eventually got it all down fairly even. Also, its finally rained up here and a lot, Wow the Milo smells fairly bad. I can live with it tho.

So two questions I have today. The ant hills are still an incredible problem. I don't want to sound nuts but I am talking thousands upon thousands of hills. Every 5 inches or less on the entire 20ksqft or so. Slight exaggeration only. Dchall had mentioned potentially organic solution that might drive them away. What might that be? If not, the insecticides might have to go back down in some areas like where the kid and dog plays a lot.

Second question. I have either voles or moles doing quite a bit of damage in certain areas. These are active tunnels. Its not really causing me a particular problem other then it looks bad and makes the ground uneven. Should I deal with this right now or leave them alone to deal with them during lawn perfection time (like years from now probably)? Id guess id probably poison them. Other solutions sounded unrealistic. Be nice if they would eat all those ants

Thx

The Milo scent will go away very quickly. Did you think it was that bad? I suppose I'm just used to it (I actually find it kind of pleasant).

Ant hills: Do you know what kind of ant? I'd probably make a separate post on this just to make sure people see it as well. I tend to ignore ants as mine are little ones (they bite, but only if you annoy them) and only half a dozen nests through the property.

Moles and Voles: You can use poison, but be careful that young children and dogs cannot get to the poison bait! Killing traps are also available.

I blanket-sprayed my vole areas with 1 oz castor oil (your drug store, check the laxative aisle) per thousand square feet, mixed with 1/4 oz dish soap. The voles can't stand the smell of the castor, nor do they like that it soaks their fur and makes it wet and sticky. They decamp.

Adding a bit of Neem oil to the mix if you can get it helps as it smells unbelievably pungent even to a human nose. But that's optional--it's something I have around for soap making, but most others commonly don't and it's not so easy to get.

I didnt think the Milo was that bad but someone who hasn't been here for a while did ask me what smelled so bad. It does have that slight sewage smell to it.

Not sure on the Ants. I can tell a carpenter ant from anything since I have been fighting them in my house and wall voids but the yard ones are all extremely tiny. I will take some HD pics and post in another thread for suggestions.

I like the oil/soap suggestions. I will see if I can drive them out before I poison them because yes, Toddler and two dogs that will eat anything they find. I'm sure they can smell that a mile away.

Those wee ants that make little holes and bite like the dickens if you disturb their nests? I have those all over the place.

I tend to ignore them unless they get too close to the house (because then they start coming in the house). Any garden/lawn ant killer on the market will take them out, usually in one shot. But I don't recommend allowing children back into the area until it's either been well-irrigated or rained.

A heavy sprinkling of sugar will force the ants to move their home, but they generally don't go very far. I sometimes do that if I have an ant hill in an inconvenient location in the garden where moving a few feet is more than enough.

For the voles, reapply every 2 weeks until they're definitely gone (usually only once or twice), then apply monthly for the rest of the season to keep them gone. Castor is harmless to humans and animals if ingested in small amounts and completely harmless when skin applied, as is Neem if you can find it and want to use it (it's sold at Home Depot as plain "Neem Oil" and usually located with the other leaf shining or natural insect killer products). Castor, if drunk, is a pretty effective and rather fast laxative due to the ricinoleic fatty acid, so keep children away from the container.

For large properties where very large amounts of castor are required, I can give you a source where you can get seven pounds very cheaply. It's the same supplier soap makers use. Ounce by ounce at the drugstore, the stuff can be rather pricey.

for the ants drop some sugar near one of the holes and check to see if they are attracted or repelled by the sugar. Then report back.

it has been raining quite a bit lately and so the ants have really been reduced. May was the driest month almost ever for NY so I think that allowed them to get out of control. So I am just going to leave them alone for now.

I do have a question on the overall process Morph had outlined. I ran out of money this past month so the Borax/Copper/Zinc didn't go down. How does this adjust my plan going forward? What is the impact to missing that. Right now I am eyeballing the Pot Sulfate for July 1st and Aug 1st. That looks like its going to be pretty expensive if I do my entire property. Still looking around for a better deal. Online is about a buck a pound including shipping

My lawn seems to be the worse near pine trees. Do pine needles ruin the soil? Make it super acidic? I took down 2 already, hit it hard with the Mag and Gypsum and grass is already starting to find a way. I have 4-5 more to take down if my suspicions are right

I still don't quite understand how I will go from mass weeds to grass once the soil has been improved but we can save that conversation for another day. Perhaps another year lol

thx

I hear you on the budgetary problems. Everything but feeding's currently on hold around here at the moment!

You can skip the boron, copper, and zinc for the year if you need to. While the boron is impacting lawn quality, the copper and zinc were more rebalancing. Still, you can work without the boron for a bit.

If you have to do just one application of the potassium sulfate, cut the others and do whatever one is convenient and affordable for you. If it's zero instead, it'll survive.

Prioritizing the above, the calcium lime is the most important. Potassium is number two. Boron number three. Copper and zinc a very distant fourth and fifth.

Delaying will slow down soil improvement, but that's not a problem--it just means the grass improves more slowly as well. There's nothing wrong with doing that.

Pine trees: The needles actually end up near neutral, although high masses of them can smother grass. The problem with pine trees is two-fold. One, they suck up massive amounts of water and dry out the soil profile. Two, they secrete chemicals that depress out or kill other plants to eliminate competition (literal chemical warfare).

Grasses rarely grow well underneath or very near pine trees when you combine the above with the increased shade from the tree itself. But with proper care, you can get the grass to flourish pretty close to the tree, just not under the canopy.

Improving the soil means the grass does much better, outccompeting the weeds. It takes time, and some work, but eventually the number of invading weeds drops amazingly. They simply don't have the space to grow and can't compete with the established grasses.

Got it Thanks. I already do have the borax. Can I use the Potassium or Magical as the carrier since I do still plan to do that? It was buying the carrier that was the problem for me at that moment. I do think the Pine trees are doing just what you say. Those will have to go.

If you can get the stuff to stick to the potassium, have at. The two won't interact.

It would make the Mag-I-Cal cakey, so I wouldn't do that.

If you can't get it to stick to the potassium, report back. There's a hose end method, but it requires very careful measurement and very, very careful application. It's not something I generally recommend--although I do it myself--because you absolutely have to pay attention to everything all at once.

And yes, if you want grass very close to the pine trees, the trees have to Go Away. :-) Many other evergreens don't fight chemical wars with surrounding plants, or do so only in very minor ways, so only the canopy would be a problem. My Thuja Green Giants have living, perfect grass right up to the canopy edge--and since the canopy goes to the ground, you don't see the bare ground underneath. They're hardly unique.