I remember reading that Striped Roman likes a little shade, so I'll consider those.

Better question for the container forum, I guess. **SIGH

I would be worried about stacking tires very high in Oklahoma. That would amount to a pretty high raised bed, so it could dry out very quickly. I suppose you could make a hugel base to them though.

Did you ever see the pepper garden done in water bottles? I will post it to your FB page. Again, it will dry out quickly, but it might be a fun experiment.

Keep an eye out for 5 gallon buckets. If you put drainage holes in them, you should be able to use them as planters.

Does anyone know anything about planting in bales of hay? I don't, but there's a lady down the road west of me that has bales stacked 2 high, 2 rows. In each bale is a tomatoe plant. Bon, maybe it could be the base for the hugel bed next year?

Sorry ya gotta move, but that house has been a test of your patience for a few years back now with the wasp etc. Good luck, GF!

A quick google search turned up several "how-to's"!!!! And it's straw - not hay, although hay can be used. It's also supposed to be a thrifty way to garden AND you get compost for next years garden! Bonnie plants was at the top of options on "how to". There's also strawbalegardens.com by Joel Karsten. I also found a blog:

http://modernfarmer.com/2013/07/straw-bale-gardening/

The more shade the tomato plants get, the less well they will grow, the fewer fruit they will produce and, if grown in mostly shade, the more the flavor will suffer.

I've never attempted to grow tomato plants in less than 4-6 hours of direct sunlight (and 6 hours gives much better results than 4) and even before and after those hours of direct sun, most of the plants also had dappled shade so were getting more than the 4-6 hours minimum. Tomato plants need a certain amount of sunlight in order to perform well, but more importantly, in order to produce full-flavored fruit. There is little point to spending a lot of time and money raising tomatoes in shade if they are not going to have enough flavor to make them worth eating. So, my suggestion is that you plant as many tomato plants in as much sunlight as possible and not waste too much time, money or effort trying to grow the rest of the plants in a low light situation.

I wouldn't put more than one plant per tire, and it goes without saying that I'd never eat anything raised in a tire, and I feel really strongly about that. Lisa is being so much more diplomatic about that issue than I am going to be. I believe I'd skip having a garden altogether before I'd feed my family food raised in tires. You don't want to go there, but I mentioned that anyway so that brand new gardeners who might read this won't think that growing food in tires is a good idea, although some people do it.

There are a million better options than old tires, and I'm simply talking about practical matters and not even going to go into possible toxicity issues since you don't want to go there. Because the tires are black, they are going to heat up like mad in our hot climate and roast the roots of your plants. It probably is one thing to grow anything in tires in a climate where a very hot day is one in which the temperature hits 85 or 90 degrees. It is an entirely different thing to do it in our climate where temperatures in the 90s are just the beginning, and some years we see far too many daytime highs well over 100 or 105 or even 110. That heating of the soil also can lead to diseases that develop in warm to hot conditions and if the tires radiate enough heat off themselves and upward into the air above them (the same way that the air above concrete pavement feels hotter than air above grass), the tire-heated air even could impede fruit production. You might be able to mitigate that somewhat by painting the outsides of the tires white. You'd get better results from just mounding up the purchased soil and amendments on top of the ground. You can grow in cardboard boxes, paper bags, even plastic bags.....and none of them would have the same issues as growing in tires stacked upon one another. Understand that growing in tires is more like growing in containers than growing in raised beds, especially if you are stacking them atop one another, so you shouldn't use any native soil in the tires, only purchased soil-less mix. Native soil in tires will not drain well enough, which is why we go to all the trouble to buy a purchased soil-less mix or to make Al's 5-1-1 mix to fill up containers. If I was going to buy enough soil-less mix (save money by buying it in bulk, not in bags) to fill up enough tires to raise 50 tomato plants, I'd spend the extra money to buy 5, 7 or 10-gallon SunLeaves bags (black inside to prevent sunlight penetration to the root zone, and white outside to deflect sunlight/heat) and would use them. They might seem like an extravagance, but they aren't----they will be so much better for the plants in our summer heat.

In our early years, when our clay was so horrid and I feared there would be poor production in anything but the raised beds, I still planted in grade level soil that only had moderate amending and the plants did well enough there. It is just that they did even better in each succeeding year than they had the year before as the soil continued to improve. Even in Year 1 and Year 2 I had great tomato yields from tomato plants in barely-amended grade-level soil, so you might consider skipping the tires and working with what you've got at the new place. Even in totally unamended red clay that broke shovels, I sowed turnip seed and got huge turnips. Plants can grow adequately in clay in most years so the use of tires, or anything else, might not even be necessary.

Keep in mind that when growing in containers or in something like raised tires, you may have to water your plants up to 3 to 4 times per day in the hottest wetter. A drip irrigation line set up on a timer makes it easier to keep the plants alive, but plants in containers or in tires never will produce as well, and will have tons more problems, than plants grown in the ground. In our climate, it is hard to keep containerized plants happy in June, July and August and I feel qualified in saying that because there's been years I have had 50 to 70 containers in various sizes, and I still grow in a dozen or two very large containers, and they require constant attention to their water and nutrition needs. Trying to keep them happy in hot weather can be exhausting. Finally, keep in mind that when growing in containers or in tires that function similar to containers, it is very difficult to grow organically. In order for organic fertilizers and soil supplements to work, there needs to be an EXISTING community of various bacteria and other biota functioning as a part of the soil food web in order for the organic fertilizers and amendments to break down and be taken up by the plants. I always got around that by adding tons of tons of compost from my own pile as well as half-rotted logs from the woods, placed at the bottom of each container, to give my soil-less mix the active soil food web it needed, and I used lots of biostimulants like molasses, kelp and liquid fish. I usually had one-third of the large containers (molasses feed tubs and galvanized stock tanks with drainage holes drilled in the bottom) filled with half-rotted logs and leaf mold from the woods, one-third compost from my pile, and the rest was basically Al's 5-1-1 container mix.

With tomatoes grown in containers, it is much more difficult to keep the soil evenly moist---hence the need for a dripline on a timer. The soil-less mix in containers can dry out in a matter of a few hours in hot weather, and fluctuating from dry to wet soil in a few hours and then back again when you water will give you plants full of tomatoes with blossom end rot. I learned that from experience and had to work 3 to 4 times as hard to prevent BER in container-grown tomatoes than those grown in the ground. BER is not caused by a calcium deficiency---it is caused by the way water and calcium move within the plant. When the plant gets dry, it pulls back the water and calcium from the fruit because it is more important for the mother plant to stay alive than for her babies (the fruit) to live. Growing tomato plants in tires in our climate is just begging for BER. Just some food for thought.....because planting is only the beginning. The important stuff is what happens after you plant, and that is where I think you'll run into trouble with tires. I beg you to reconsider growing in tires because I think it will bring you nothing but grief in our hot climate.

You know that I am your friend and I'm always on your side, but the tires are a bad idea, and even though you said that is not negotiable, I hope I've given you food for thought.

Dawn

I've grown in hay bales and it can get weedy. I like aged bales that are a couple of years old rather than new ones because the aged ones often have already sprouted a lot of their seeds as they sat and aged. Still, despite the weeds that can sprout underneath, on top of, and even within the bales, you just pull them out or cut them back if they are unpullable, and plants will grow in them despite the weeds. It won't be beautiful with weeds sprouting in the hay itself, but you'll still get production from your plants. I mostly grow squash and pumpkins in my hay bale beds behind the garage because the large leaves shade the bales, particularly as the season goes on, and less direct sunlight hitting the bales means less weeds will sprout as the season goes on.

On the blog link I posted above the author mentioned the sprouting weeds and grass. She referred to it as the "chia effect" and said if it bothered the grower, they could just trim it! I giggled at the thought of Bonnie outside with scissors, dancing around the bales singing "ch-ch-chc-chia!"!!! =)

In my hay bale garden I mostly call it the Johnson Grass effect and it really isn't a laughing matter because it can get head-high in no time. Of course, we had existing Johnson grass back there that we kept mowed down before we put the hay bales there. It is still there, sprouting from beneath the bales, along with the bermuda grass. A string trimmer, used carefully (especially earlier in the season before the winter squash and pumpkin vines start running too much) and regularly can kept most of that type of growth down. I don't worry much about whatever sprouts in the actual bales as those plants get shaded out by the large squash and pumpkin leaves. Apparently bermuda grass and Johnson grass refuse to be shaded out in this particular situation. If someone put down hay bales where no Johnson grass or bermuda grass already existed, I bet they wouldn't become a problem unless they sprouted within the bales and were allowed to stay.

I remember chia pets, but I doubt Bon is going to want to entertain her neighbors doing the ch-ch-chia dance. A gardener who does that gets a reputation for being, um.....eccentric, at best, and crazy at worst. I grew up in a neighborhood with a couple of eccentric gardeners and I adored them because they shunned the then-conventional wisdom and did things in their own way---using many techniques, like deep mulching and replacing lawn with wildflowers that are more common now but which were rare and sort of considered odd back then.

hahaha I needed that laugh. Thank you, Paula. I hope you're on the mend and that you're not uncomfortable in any way. Bill was just diagnosed with the same. Further testing is needed.

I forgot about the heat. Thanks Dawn. I'm determined to get at least one or two tomato plants. I thought about foregoing any plantings at all because I can only do a
few plants, maybe 3 and I'm physically exhausted from the move. it's not just any move. The house is a health hazard. We're working quickly on the best part - the 2nd floor - and will continue after we move in. The work is massive. I can pull up the onions and the garlic on the old property, but there is more than a hundred potato plants out there. The rest of the seedlings will be toast or trash. The garden provides hope and eases the depression, so I should really try to persist. Over time we'll take out some trees and I can get rolling with a biointense garden. Nearly every 2nd story window can have green boxes. I like this. In addition, I'll be able to put plants indoors which i could never do in the cottage.

Lisa has suggested raised garden ideas. Lisa, I can put the butterfly plot right out front by the mailbox along the sidewalk. It'll take time to get the soil worked up. I should be able to get it ready for wintersowing. The smaller size is more manageable and we can play with the particulars of the design. Little miss is creative.

In the front yard the pine trees or whatever they are have never been tended. These reach to the 2nd story. Sis and I discovered a nice little clearing under them where the original sidewalk exists. There are small trees gently shading the reverse of this secret area. Periwinkle gently surrounds a nice spot while kissing the edges making a circle around that is perfect for table and chairs to hold a nice pot of tea.

We became involved with this property when a younger of this family tried to sell us the house which did not belong to them. Unbeknownst to us those two had been imprisoned for fraud on a white collar healthcare level. When they got out of prison, the family let them living in this house. Superficially, they looked great, responsible and everyone liked them when we met. We discovered this only after we were in this house and when these two were on the run with six counts of credit card fraud (from their illegitimate business) leaving us in the middle of family battle including the title of the house where we were living when one of the owners (who favored us) passed away. We were willed the house, but the owner's sister had it changed. i knew this at the time. Of course, they think we're stupid because we're poor. There was a verbal agreement between us and the then owner. They never responded to my inquiries, my letters. Never inquired of the property. Never involved themselves. Nothing. Nada. Eight years. Too good for us, you know. meanwhile, I knew what to expect, but not when. They were sure happy to take our money, though. Your basic middle class trash. We had options to retain the house and property, but that would require us dealing with frauds and paying for property that will decrease into half its current value over the next 10 to 15 years. Superficially, they're outstanding citizens. She's a retired banker.

I've cried over the loss of the beginnings of my permaculture stand. Sometimes ya gotta stop the current agenda and take out the trash. We're done. Zero connections. Owe very little. We can leave when the time comes!

Are you buying the new house? Same area? You've already moved? How much yard? Cherry tomatoes will grow in 5 gal buckets, not great, but they'll do better with some afternoon shade. I am doing some tomatoes in straw bales (not hay) this year but aside from the potatoes that are currently growing, I don't know how they will work. Blue reusable Walmart bags hold 7 gal of soil. Google raingutter grow system and look at the blue bags in kiddie pools. It makes watering easier. That guy has a you tube channel with a video for making grow bags from landscape fabric. Another thing I am looking at for tomatoes this year is called Japanese ring. Is there a community garden somewhere? Don't trash your seedlings, Maybe a neighbor has a sunny garden. Gosh, you need a hug! {Hug}

Bon, I understand that gardening feeds your soul just as much as it feeds your body. I am the same way. Be kind to yourself and plant a few tomato plants to feed your soul (and body) and just let the others go. Letting go is hard, but you're super-stressed with the move and the need to fix up the new place, so be sure to be kind to Bon. I do hate it that you're having to leave a place where you've made such progress on the soil, but life is a series of new beginnings and I hope you can look at the old place as a form of preparation for the new beginning in the new place. Did I hate leaving my old gardens behind in Fort Worth? Of course I did, but I was all fired up about the challenge of starting over in a new place as well.

Remember that you can plant new tomato plants (perhaps a couple of varieties chosen expressly because they were bred to grow in containers) in late June or early July for a fall harvest if you want to. That might make it easier to let go of your bountiful selection of spring seedlings that may not be able to go into the ground now due to the move.

I am sorry y'all got involved with those fraudulent people. That is a terrible, terrible shame and it certainly happened through no fault of your own. Con artists are clever and can fool anyone. You're doing a good job of dusting yourself off and moving on. I applaud you for that.

The new place sounds like it has wonderful potential and y'all will have fun making it your own. I do lament the loss of your potatoes----all those potato plants! That's a shame. I also hate you've lost the progress on the permaculture areas you've been building, but any improvement you've done to Mother Earth remains, even if you are not there to benefit from it. It seems to me like that achievement should earn you some good karma. On the bright side, neither your or Bill will have to spend a significant part of June and/or July digging potatoes in the heat. (Always gotta look for the bright side!)

Remember with the new garden to start small and make it bigger each year so you don't exhaust yourself trying to do too much breaking of the ground and improving of the soil all at once. My original garden here was just two small raised beds built in what I roughly imagined as our back yard, and I planted it a year before the builder started building the house. I tended it on weekends when we came up here to work on clearing the forest enough to be able to put up a barbed wire fence to keep the neighbors' cattle off our land. It was an adventure---the only time I ever had to have a barbed wire fence to keep the cows out of my garden! For a few months, we had cow surprises every weekend since it took us a long time to clear enough old, dense, overgrown woodland to put up the fence to keep the cows out---we'd stumble upon cows in the oddest places, and just laugh and shake our heads. We didn't mind the cows being there, but we didn't want to have permanent grazing cattle that weren't ours, so once the fence went up, they had to stay on their place, not ours. Once the cows were gone, the house was built and we were moving here, we put time into building our first "real" garden, but even that was tiny compared to what we have now. After I would get one section fairly well improved and workable, we'd add a new section. We added something new almost every year, except in the worst of drought years, which are not a time to be trying to break up hard, clay ground. (See, I've learned something from living here.)

My tiny little garden was jam-packed with flowers, herbs and veggies, and I used it for two or three years before we got the big garden built and ready to use. I learned a lot from those small beds even if they didn't produce gigantic yields. They did produce adequate ones considering how small they were. I learned about our soil, our rainfall, pests, etc., just on a smaller scale with a smaller garden. It was just important to me to have something---even just a couple of small raised beds. I hope you find a way to have something for yourself this year---whether it is a small raised bed, containers, or whatever. If all you have is one big container with 2 tomato plants and a marigold or something in it for color, so be it. At least you'll have that, and you'll know that next year you can grow more.

Sending you hugs and best wishes on the new adventure upon which your family is embarking!

Dawn

Great words of advice from your friends, Bon. Be good to yourself, both mentally and physically. (Sending you and Bill positive thoughts and prayers and hoping your back is ok after the move.)

I love you guys. I started a hugel bed in that spot after opening my mind. It'll be about 4' x 6' x whatever height up against the corrugated metal fence. It gets 6-7 hours of direct sun. I plan to gradually move all my planter soil, my existing hugel soil and my best ground soil to it as well as any yard clippings from all the luscious clover and wild vetch growing. In just 15 minutes a day I can have a rich hugel bed, I came to
realize after reading this forum. We talked about clearing trees in the
future. There are zero flies over there because it is so naturally overgrown.
I need to be careful and not change too much. It's tight, but we might
be able to get branches down safely to have access to sun in some
spots. I started laying organic materials on the patch in front of the
old sidewalk for the butterfly garden and winter sowing. It really
doesn't take much to throw material and mulch around, does it? With
such a drastic reduction in garden space, there's plenty organic
material to go around on these small areas. Now that's unheard of.
LOL My new row covers will be used for extending the season and we will
find a way to get my cold frame in, too. We're only moving across the alley, so it's pretty snappy, even for me.

Built in the 30s, it was an old flop house for the railway workers.
Bill bought it twenty years ago and neglected a lot, but it's paid. It's creepy.
It's big. Its ten foot ceilings have been stripped of the original lathe and plaster waiting for loving replacements. But it's
really cool, a cool Steven King would love LOL. Its foundation has withstood the quakes. We are, once again, comforted by its
strength more than disgusted by its seemingly inhabitable nature. The original construction of these monster houses are ... overkill, but I won't be volunteering to host any garden parties unless we all opt for a dual garden party with a halloween theme. haha

I have about 4' x 5' where container plantings can happen with afternoon
sun. This is the sunniest with exception to the garage roof. Since Bill hordes materials I found a huge pile of untreated construction board that will build planters and plant boxes to my heart's content. The
roof! Gained access to 2nd floor windows through the kids room. It's perfect. It's sunny and warm inside and with foot level access to garage roof and where it's sunny all day but cool from the tree
tops. Here, the branches are accessible for control. Every window in that house has the potential for green boxes inside or out.

Lisa, Little miss can have her potted zinnias, bachelor buttons and perennial flowers right in her room at that window inside and outside. It's nice to have window light even though the dilapidated wooden frames are creepy-looking. The
glass is in tact. The load bearing struts are secure. We can rebuild,
solidify, seal and customize. I'm spotting locations for all the perennials I brought home. The comfrey, blackberry and others will have a chance to spawn new roots in the dappled shade of good soil before being potted up or moved. I plan on taking some iris and naked ladies before we leave. I can have my hanging gardens outside multiple windows. i can have the whole monsterous house crawling with light weight green growies on the outside, if I choose.

Amy, I am incredibly sore. Miraculously, my back is holding up well. The stairs have been good for me, but we're deliberately avoiding the 2nd floor today. Too much to do on the first floor, you know... *wink.

Thank you, Sandplum! I'm worried about Bill who takes on the bulk of the work. Poor guy. I'm committed right along with him. We will make right what he should have been done on that house. We are both confident our freedom is around the corner.

But gardening is a soul thing like you suggest, Dawn. It kinda surprises me how it makes everything beddah. <3 I should be able to do a seriously biointense gardening for the next couple of years with all my cover crop seeds and existing organic material.

I've got lots of info on container gardening. How bout potatoes in bags?

That's right, Kim! Woot! Btw, she's still wearing that necklace. It was the first to move to her new upright jewelry box. hehe

Amy, You're spot on, girl. I turned the compost and choked up the worms with food today and yelled at them to get busy making goody soil for containers and grow bags. ha

Oh good I know it made my day to see her face light up.