Not really enough info to make a good decision

http://www.electrical-online.com/wiring-a-switched-outlet-diagram/

yeah i did not take a good picture as i swore i was going to just
wire them up separately. I do not care to have the outlet switched so i
capped the red on both.

so to be clear

a plastic box
2 sets of wires -red, black white and bare copper ground.
only one black is hot in the box
looking to add 2 receptacles.
one receptical is an insteon with wires (b,w, and ground) vs 4 traditional screw terminals for the other. researching,
seems need to pigtail the recepticles, add line to the GFI and possibly
twist some of the wires together but not sure the configuration

You need to put the white and black from the hot wire on the line side of the gfi and the others out of the load side and put the Reds together and cap them if you don't do the reds together anything else down the line that is switched won't work

You should disconnect the red at the switch, I would remove the switch and put a box cover there. at the switch box connect black to black, white to white, and ground to ground, cap off the red. At the outlets wire the the GFCI Line first then wire the second outlet to the load side of the GFCI. Ground both outlets as you said. Remember black wire goes on the hot side (smaller plug in hole), white on the bigger side.

I agree with vith, but if you disconnect the switch just make sure you splice the two wires together at the switch so the outlets that are switched other then the one you are working on will work. Also just make sure the Reds are spliced together at the outlet to continue the circuit.

That won't work.

" At the outlets wire the the GFCI Line first then wire the second outlet to the load side of the GFCI. "

"I agree with vith, but if you disconnect the switch just make sure you splice the two wires together at the switch so the outlets that are switched other then the one you are working on will work. Also just make sure the Reds are spliced together at the outlet to continue the circuit."

You can't put a GFCI in the middle of a circuit with split wired receptacles unless you connect the red and black wires back together on the load side of the GFCI, effectively making the receptacles no longer split. Otherwise, it will trip the GFCI every time you try to use the receptacle supplied by the red wire.

If you are considering "disconnect the red at the switch, I would remove the switch and put a box cover there. at the switch box connect black to black, white to white, and ground to ground, cap off the red." Then, you had better have another switch there controlling another light, in order to conform with the NEC.

210.70 Lighting Outlets Required.

Lighting outlets shall be installed where specified in 210.70(A), (B), and (C).

(A) Dwelling Units. In dwelling units, lighting outlets shall be installed in accordance with 210.70(A)(1), (A)(2), and (A)(3).

(1) Habitable Rooms. At least one wall switch–controlled lighting outlet shall be installed in every habitable room and bathroom.

Exception No. 1: In other than kitchens and bathrooms, one or more receptacles controlled by a wall switch shall be permitted in lieu of lighting outlets.

Exception No. 2: Lighting outlets shall be permitted to be controlled by occupancy sensors that are (1) in addition to wall switches or (2) located at a customary wall switch location and equipped with a manual override that will allow the sensor to switch location and equipped with a manual override that will allow the sensor to function as a wall switch.

What are you trying to accomplish by using a GFCI receptacle? Unless you are trying to make this room into a wet area, a GFCI won't really make things any safer.

Yeah what he said

My original thought was that the room had a normal overhead light switch, and the outlet used to be for a floor lamp. BUT, I am thinking you are right and he wont have another light switch since the switch we are dealing with is a 3 way and the other switch also controls that outlet. Thanks for catching that. If your room does not have a dedicated light then you should get an electrician to run a wire and install a proper overhead light. If your room does have a separate light switch for an overhead light then there shouldn't be anything wrong with removing both switches going to the outlet and not using the traveler (red). The GFCI is a bit overkill I agree, wont really help much. I wonder if the OP thinks it will help protect his electronics, it wont. You need a good surge protector bar. Even better would be a whole house SPD at the panel plus the quality surge protector bar.

I don't see the need for the gfi this room doesn't sound like a location that would require one

I'm not sure where it is assumed that the switch is a 3way? I don't see that reference. All I see is a box with switched receptacles where the 3-wire cable with ground presumably continues around the room to other receptacles that are also controlled by the switch.

Still waiting for a better explanation of what EVERYTHING does on that circuit AND what the changes are attempting to accomplish and/ or not interrupt.

Thanks all.

This is a living Room with the following setup. Forgive my lack of technical circuitry/electrical terms. Note this is an open space dining/living kitchen with many recessed lights and multiple 3 way switches

2 gang switch in Living room on left wall
- left rocker switch switches 2 sep. dual electrical outlets against the back wall. it is not 3 way (there is no other switch that turns off the outlets) i am working on the right box of dual receptacles. The other left outlet has the entertainment system plugged in (via surge protector). this rocker switch is taped over as i never have a need to turn off the outlets.
- right rocker switch is a 3 way that controls recessed lights in the living room. other switch for these lights is on the other side of the room and is a dimmer.

As you move toward dining and kitchen area there are 3 way dimmers on ea side of room to more recessed lights, a fan switch for ceiling fan etc.

The box I'm working on has 2, 3 wire cables (r,b,w) and bare copper ground. All wires are loose and capped right now. Only one black is hot in the box. the prior receptacle setup seemed to have some traditional pigtail- line and load setup.

I am currently installing an Insteon outlet to automate a floor light. The other existing outlet in this box was old mismatched [ivory] and i just thought I needed GFCI. New GFCI is Leviton smartlockpro 15a-125v.

i figure i could and should rewire the wall switch and cover it as i really don;t see any need to switch these outlets off. For right now i just want to get the outlets back in play.

Thanks again.

"All wires are loose and capped right now. Only one black is hot in the box. "

Do all 4 receptacles in the other (left) two gang still have power?

Does the right switch in the two gang the switch for the receptacles still turn the recessed lights on, or are the lights dead at the moment?

Can you take the cover off the two gang switch box and unscrew the switches like your first picture, and post a picture here?

"the prior receptacle setup seemed to have some traditional pigtail- line and load setup."

I have a vague idea of what you mean by this, but there is no "LOAD" with a normal receptacle. The power is all run in parallel. I assume you mean that each duplex receptacle had 2 white, 2 red, and 2 black wires connected in a daisy chain fashion?

You can use a GFCI if you want, but I don't think I would hook the Insteon to the LOAD side of the GFCI unless there was a really good reason, otherwise you are just asking for one more complication that could go wrong with such a sophisticated piece of equipment. I am guessing that you want the Insteon so that you can control the light via your phone?

It doesn't sound like a GFCI receptacle can be used in this location to feed through and protect any other receptacles on this wall. It would just be for that specific GFCI duplex receptacle device in this case. If you wanted everything to be GFCI protected on that wall, (and I don't think you need it at all), then the GFCI receptacle would need to go in the left side of the left two gang receptacle box (presumably).

I will try to draw a diagram of what I think you have going on right now, shortly, but a picture of the switch box first might help me from having to draw it twice.

Then, depending on what you want it to do, and how easy you want it to be for someone to figure it out again later, I can tell you what to wire together.

Unless you plan on showering in the living room then you don't need a gfi, most likely there are 2 blacks, 2 reds and 2 whites because one feeds into the box and one feeds out, so if that's the case, which it probably is, then there is another outlet down the line that isn't working right now. So if the are 2 blacks and 2 reds then that probably means there are other outlets on that switch, so if you don't want the switch you will still need to splice the reds together to continue the circuit, and go to the switch and take the 2 wire off and splice them together, if you don't tie the reds together in the outlet the next set probably won't work, they look like they are have switched so half will work and half won't if you don't splice the reds

This is what I think you have going on right now. I didn't draw in the bare ground wires because you just wire nut them all together and pigtail out a lead for each device. I think you have two more receptacles that are also controlled by the switch in the other (left) box that need to be dealt with. I am not sure why you need so many receptacles if you are (and should be) using a surge protector power strip anyway. Therefore, you may as well leave at least one receptacle operated by the switch even if it is only for some decorative accent lighting.

Without the GFCI, the wiring is easy. Just wirenut the reds together, since it doesn't sound like you are a fan of the switched outlet anyway. Since the Insteon device appears to have pigtail leads on it already, I would add leads for the other receptacle, and then wirenut all the white wires together. Do the same with all the black wires. If you use the GFCI receptacle, make sure to only connect the leads to the terminals marked "LINE".

This is all assuming that the wiring is as illustrated. The switch leg dead ends at the switch box and the neutral is capped off. And, the 3way switch is also a dead end using the white wire as a traveler. If the power comes from the other direction, other wiring methods may be possible with a GFCI. Also, if there are more outlets in between the receptacle box in question and the switch, it would change possible circumstances with a GFCI. By NOT using a GFCI, or only connecting to the "line" side, you should be avoiding any unusual circumstances and the wiring SHOULD be straight forward.

If the GFCI doesn't feed and protect all the other receptacles, it is fairly useless. Then it is like playing Russian Roulette if it is assumed to protect all the receptacles, but doesn't. The only practical application I can come up with for just having GFCI protection on one of several receptacles would be for equipment involving a fish tank. Even then, a power strip with GFCI protection would most likely be better if there were more than 2 pieces of equipment to plug in. If you want to protect the whole circuit, the GFCI has to be installed in the beginning of the circuit, before the switch splits the power.

Hi,

In testing, the other outlets downline are not working which is expected, recall the box I'm working on has nothing in it. Power seems to be from left to right and affects 6 receptacles ( 5 downline are out including the box being worked on )

I'll forgo the GFCI, [i thought it was required] and get a simple matching white outlet then. For right now i found a simple levitron receptacle to test the wiring.

The doubt the dimmers are in play here as they control lights above are are not affected.

Figure the wiring is simple here with the regular receptacle as the lead. The prior setup did not have white or black or grounds spliced together. For now can I pair the reds together in this box and deal with the switch later (splice together reds , remove switch and cover?)

Receptacles again are levitron (b,w,ground wires) and test levitron - 2 brass line, 2 silver load screw terminals and a screw for ground.

thanks again for all the help here, really appreciate it~

Your starting to scare me now. There is no line and load on the regular outlet if you hook it up like you just said it will blow up. The silver is the neutral side (white) the brass is the hot side (black). If you remove the switch and don't splice the wires together from the switch half of the outlets prob won't work. You need to splice the red at the outlet and the wires on the back of the switch. The switch should have a red and black and ground bare, splice the red and black

"The prior setup did not have white or black or grounds spliced together."

Hopefully, you meant white or black or red (not grounds)

The reason to splice all the whites together with a wire nut , and do the same for the black wires, is because the newer standard receptacles that you get from the hardware store do not have the capability to terminate more than 2 white and 2 black wires, especially if the wire is 12 gauge and not 14 gauge. Also, the stranded wires from the Insteon device don't hook up real nice with a standard receptacle screw (although it can be done). It is much better in the end to use wire nut connections.

Here is what you had.

Here is what you want. (of course, you would substitute one of the regular receptacles for the Insteon)

Good work Fred a picture makes explaining it so much easier

I think I have it, its late but i'll review the 2nd pic (thx!) and recap my understanding tomorrow.

So i follow the concept of completing the circuit. The red pairing makes sense but for the black for example- is this 4 wires? the two from the 2 cables in the box and 2 more individual short length wires so they can go to the receptacle (hot and neutral pigtails)?

as in this pic below

All you need to know is to put all the blacks together and under a brass screw and all the whites together under a silver screw. Wether it's pigtailed or jumped across from switch to switch with a wire it doesn't matter it will do the same thing. Brass is always the hot screw and silver is always the neutral screw. Honestly though if you still don't understand after that picture which shows it as clear as day, you probably should not do it yourself, maybe call someone before you start a fire. This is about as basic as it gets for electrical.

Yes. Like your last picture. The only difference is that you will have two receptacle devices and four of each color wire connected by the wire nut....and the wire nut will probably not be yellow, as it needs to be listed to hold the proper number and gauge of wires.

Don't put all the wires under one screw ;)

Only one wire per screw allowed !!

That is what wire nuts are for.

I'm sure that is not what niick meant, but that is what it read like to me, so just making sure :D

thanks. I do follow the basic concepts re line brass/ load silver and my prior work has only been one receptacle, thus my questions.

i know the pic i attached is a guide and not specific to the scheme we have here.

Also correct me if I'm wrong but seems there are 4 black wires under the wire nut there no? Conceptually the joining of for example the neutrals from the cables is to complete the circuit and adding 2 more wires to this twist gives 2 neutrals to the 2 receptacles [since not they are not piggybacking off ea. other in this case].

It is NOT called "line" and "load" in this case. The conductors are connected in "parallel", which is why you can connect all the black wires together. "Line and load" is reserved for something connected in series. A circuit breaker, switch, and a GFCI have "line and load". A standard receptacle does not. A standard receptacle only has a "hot", "neutral", and "ground".

Yes, MY second picture of what you will need to do has 4 wires under the red wire nuts.

Hey,

Wanted to thank everyone for their time here. i completed the box yesterday and everything seems fine.

Learned some valuable lessons along the way from here and reading some articles,. most importantly about good secure connections and following code.

many thanks again!

In this picture, the left example is series, and the right example is parallel.

I hate to get into the whole semantics argument that I've been in before, but both of those are actually parallel. Series wiring is not used in household wiring.
If you want to distinguish between the two methods of wiring, it's better to use "pigtailed" and "inline", not parallel/series.

Some people mistakenly call the wiring on the left as 'series' because they think that if you remove the outlet, it breaks the circuit. Which is true, but that's not what series means.
The outlet is not actually a 'load'. It's a branching point for the circuit. It's where a load can be added to the circuit in parallel. Plugging in a lamp adds the wiring and the light bulb to the circuit in parallel with whatever else is plugged into the circuit.
Using the screws on the side of the outlet just connects two wires together. Another method of connecting two wires together is using a wirenut. You'd never say that a wirenut is 'in series' with something else, so why would you say that an outlet is? It's essentially just a fancy wirenut.

If two LOADS are in series, then removing one load will disable the other. A typical example is the type of christmas string lights where you remove one bulb (ie. load) and all the other ones go out.

Wow! You have been told you are wrong before, and you still don't get it?

I'm not going to get into this argument again. Here's the thread where it got discussed to death before. It's a little hard to read because it lost some of the formatting on the switch over to Houzz and the text that is actually quotes from other posts isn't italicized anymore, but I'm sure you can get the general idea.

Parallel/Series discussion

If you read through that and still disagree, that's fine. I don't really care anymore and my argument is spelled out there, so there's nothing else to really add.

Or even just read the site that you posted. It isn't agreeing with you. The description of the series circuit is the christmas light example that I gave. It doesn't say anything about outlets in series (because that doesn't happen). Or it's saying that a switch is in series with a light.

There are only two ways to connect wires and devices in a circuit, parallel and series. When you connect any circuit wires in parallel to a fuse, switch, circuit breaker, or GFCI , that device will not have any effect on those circuits.

Perhaps you can use some lern'in? TEXTBOOK

"A fuse, (circuit breaker, switch, or GFCI) is connected in series with the power source so that the entire current passes through it."

"If two LOADS are in series, then removing one load will disable the other."

A circuit doesn't have to have two LOADS to have things connected in series. Two wires can be connected in series. You would need at least 3 wires to even connect them in parallel.

"A typical example is the type of christmas string lights where you remove one bulb (ie. load) and all the other ones go out."

A typical example is a switch that controls a string of lights. When you turn the switch off, all the bulbs go out.

Another example is a GFCI. When the GFCI trips, all the bulbs go out.

"Or it's saying that a switch is in series with a light."

A GFCI is just a sophisticated switch !

You clearly don't understand what a GFCI does, or how it works. It MUST be wired in series for it to work. Or maybe you just don't fully understand what wiring in series means?

"It doesn't say anything about outlets in series (because that doesn't happen)."

The things you plug power cords into are called receptacles. Neither the receptacles nor the outlets are wired in series with each other. It is the GFCI that is wired in series with the receptacles. GFCI does not stand for "outlet" or "receptacle", it is a Ground Fault Circuit Interrupter. "Interrupter" is a fancy name for a switch or disconnect.

You are not even talking about GFCI receptacles in the other article! SERIOUSLY?

When you have had your electrical licence for 30 years, taken continuing education classes for all those years, and learn how to read a discussion from the top, or at least how to read that one ENTIRE comment correctly, then you will be able to have a conversation on the subject.

I am quite familiar how normal duplex receptacle works. We even had that conversation a few posts up.

Oops! I'll admit that I made a mistake. I skimmed, saw a bunch of pictures of regular receptacles, saw the parallel/series comment and jumped to conclusions. When talking about GFCIs they are in series when using the line/load. I assumed it was the other argument all over again.

You know what they say when you assume something. :)

I don't need to have had my license for 30 years to join the conversation, but I should have read more carefully.

Oops?? When YOU skim you end up wasting MY time. If you treated electrical work like this, you would be putting someone's life in danger. Other electricians will NOT even work with someone like you, in fear of getting electrocuted by your foolishness. If you were working for me, you would have been sent home yesterday for having your head so far up your....assumption.

Simmer down. I admitted I was wrong. What do you want, my first born?
Must be nice to live a life where you've never made a mistake.

On that note - lets wrap this up folks. We've reached the hijack hostility limit for my thread.

Thanks again all who contributed~

Enjoy the spring!