Avalon, I just came to that conclusion myself - that RPN's Cracker Pink is very much like Caldwell Pink/Pink Pet. I hadn't grown that rose so didn't know to check it, but it hit me this morning to question what else it could be. Hopefully, it doesn't get any bigger than White Pet because I have it in a pot. It's been putting on growth that doesn't look like it wants to be a mini which is what I was expecting. Tammy, haven't seen Pam's website so can't compare. My LP is very pinkish in the middle. Others say white in the middle which may be semantics. The mix of white and red looks pink to me. Florida's LP looks nothing like FL's CS to me which is very globular and dark with an occasional red streak - I believe. For some reason I was not successful in growing it - climber or bush. They both balled really badly throughout the year. Very disappointing. Sherry Here is a link that might be useful: If only sweat were irrigation...

Thanks Sherrycola. Seminole Springs is a wonderful place to get roses. In fact, that is where I got this one. I was just curipous because there seems to be some different versions of Louis out there. What nursery is the one only carrying Knockouts? Is it Taylor Gardens? That is where I got my three Double Knockouts. She had told me the old garden roses didn't sell well, which really surprised me. Carol, they sure can look alike! It sounds like some of the differences may show up at maturity, but my Cramoisi looks a lot like my Louis also. What tea roses do you think would look nice next to him? Any suggestions? Sandy

Thanks Alana! We are North Alabama and rain has now passed. Still have horrible wind today, though, and more storms expected later in the week. Hopefully, the storms are falling apart some before reaching you. Carol, I’ve never had any luck trying to root rose cuttings, but I have buried low lying hydrangea branches to root new bushes successfully. That’s definitely something to consider for Louis. Around here, rounding up rogue livestock is common…but it usually isn’t ours…my brother-in-laws keep a very keen eye on the pasture fencing. Our yard is often filled with escapees from neighboring farms at what are always the most inopportune times. We have a section of the pasture fenced off separately that we herd stray livestock into until we can find their owners. Years later, my boss still kids me about my “driveway full of donkeys” excuse for being late to a meeting…cows, horses and even goats& pigs are much easier to coax into an enclosure than stubborn mules & donkeys! Buford, I’m embarrassed to say as a born & bred Southerner that duct tape hadn’t crossed my mind. As diehard Alabama Crimson Tide fans, we even have Roll Tide duct tape…wonder if the crimson color would clash with Louis :) I won't be home before dark tonight, and with the strong wind, probably wouldn't be able to do anything with Louis yet, anyway. I should get home a bit earlier tomorrow night, so will check then to see if today's winds have broken the cane more or if wilting has occurred and go from there.

Well, that's the thing -- the matter is still open to debate. I read a paper that examined a bunch of roses genetically -- it's referenced in the HelpMeFind comments for 'Cramoisi Superieur', both forms, as well as many other roses. They found that the bush form which they tested was 87% identical to the climbing form, suggesting that the climbing form arose as a self-seedling, rather than sport, of the bush form. But, here's the rub -- are they sure that the bush form which they tested was the original, and not also a self-seedling of it? Since they didn't compare different samples of bush forms of 'Cramoisi Superieur', they didn't negate the possibility that the sample they tested was identical to other bush forms of 'Cramoisi Superieur'. It's likely that, rather than cuttings, seeds were often sown as a means of propagation. So long as the seedlings were close enough to the original, they may have been considered the original. To eliminate the possibility of a "strain" of bush-form CS self-seedlings going around under that name, they should have obtained multiple samples of bush-form CS. As an example, Vintage Gardens carried both forms, before this study was published. They assumed, as others before them had, that the climbing-form was a sport of the bush-form. The bush-form CS they sold was propagated as a "reversion from the climbing-form", and was described as being somewhat larger than some other bush-forms. So, let's say the climbing-form really was a seedling of the original bush-form, rather than a sport. Here we now have a new bush-form of CS going around -- a reversion of the self-seedling climbing-form, which thus would also be 87% genetically identical to the original bush form, but still technically not the same. If the study used the bush-form sold by Vintage Gardens, their results would be different. They'd find that they were identical, thus sports. So, in my opinion, CS and LP in commerce represent not two cultivars, but two strains. This could account for differences in growth habit and fragrance-strength, besides that the two are often confused for each other. If you remember the found-rose "Elisabeth's China", you'll know that it was deemed very similar, but not identical, to LP. In my opinion, it is one particular individual within the "strain" of LP out there. If one were to examine it genetically with all the forms of CS and LP in commerce, I'd guess that it matches 100% to some (suggesting an identical relationship), at least 75% but less than 100% with others (suggesting a self-seedling relationship), and that there's confusion about what's actually CS and LP. If one were to go back and check the blooms, I'd guess that the ones with the "bleached petal tips" in the center would cluster together as either identical or self-seedlings, and the ones with the solid-colored petals with slightly paler reverses would cluster together similarly -- regardless of under what name they're being sold. I'd call the first cluster LP-strain, and the second cluster CS-strain. Sorry if this post amounts to a headache, but that's my opinion. :-) ~Christopher