How cute is your house!

Can you post a picture of your pendant light so we can see the size?

I understand your thoughts of centering it to the bump out. However, I think it may be better if you centered it between the end of dw (left side of bump out) and the left side of the window in LR. Actually, if you lined it up with the right corner of bump out and stair railing, that looks pretty close to center.

Try putting the table set up like that, pulled out a little more then the 18" to see how if feels. Post a picture of it like that, so we can see the difference. I may be way off base!

I just am thinking that if you pull the table out from the wall a touch more and then a little more towards the LR, you could keep the two chairs more angled with their backs towards the wall. The one toward the kitchen angled back towards the corner by dw. The LR side chair angled same direction toward window or however you like it, since that side has plenty room. It also allows the front of staircase to remain clear of a chair being pulled it the way while in use.

I just think it might look weird if the pendant is too close to the wall. This way it can still be centered above the table and centered more "dining" room. :) I was thinking about center between where stairs end to the wall. Does that make sense?

Rebunky - Thank you!

Moving the table between the bay window & the DW would make a lot of sense in terms of making it feel less cramped, and more open. The distance between the right side of the bump out & the window is 25.5" (that side of the window frame) or 28" (the inner frame) so not exactly centered, though I could just center it on that LR corner of the bump out.

I've moved the table back outside & put stuff back, etc. since I posted, but I'll bring it back in & test it in that location & post a picture!

OK, here we go!

Carrie B - we are looking at a similar sized space and thinking maybe a 30 in. square table, so it can be flush against the wall with 3 chairs around it. I tried it with a cardboard mock up and it works, but is a bit small for 3 or 4; perfect for 2.

Thanks, oasisowner. I currently have that red & white rectangular table, which I like & works well, but I thought a round table would feel better in my space. If I put a square table up against the wall - if it was up against the bump out, no one could sit on the dishwasher side, and if I move it over closer to the bay window, it will be only partially up against the bump out, which I think will look odd. Also, since the cabinets are basically sharp angles, I though a round table would be a nice contrast & would sort of delineate the "dining area" as it's own space.

I've had this black round table as my patio table for years, and it is small with food, etc. for a bunch of people when I have parties, but, works out quite nicely for coffee (or wine & cheese) for 3 or even four people.

Rebunky - I forgot to address the pendant. I haven't really chosen a pendant light, though I do like this one. It's 13" wide, which I thought might be big for a 30" table (I've seen stuff Online that recommends 1/3 the diameter of a round table) but the woman at the lighting store told me that anything even a couple of inches smaller could look lost in my open space (the entire first floor is essentially one (not so) big room, about 25' x 12' altogether.)

Yes, I like that! How cozy with that fireplace!

So now get that table in the exact position you like. Get a long pokey stick or something that you can make some type of mark on the ceiling at center to the table. That way you know exactly where to wire it.

You could even tack up a balloon hanging from some string to mimic the pendant just to be positive you like where it is. :)

I had my poor husband on a ladder holding my pendant about where my little round table table would be. I'd say, "Out a few more inches from the wall. Now a little more this way. Wait, back more the way you had it." I couldn't decide before he was about to drop the thing! He was slightly perturbed at me to say the least. Haha!

I think it's going to look so cute Carrie. Keep us posted.

Have you thought about doing a tiny banquette there? You could do a small L, with one side's back against the DW cabinet, and then along the wall, stopping at the window. You could put a little filler piece where the wall bumps back in. You could have storage under the seats, and pull up a chair or two when you have guests.

Here's a couple of pics:

MDVN · More Info

Rutt Cabinetry · More Info

Breakfast alcove in kitchen · More Info

Esquire Residence · More Info

Sorry I start writing, got distracted and by the time I returned to finish and submitted I saw your post about the pendant. I like it. I think size at 13" is fine.

I think you have space to pull the table out a little more. Do you? Hard for me to tell. How about pull it out to 18" from the window wall, not bump out. Then measure how much it is to the stairs and let me know what it is. Thanks!

Cute home!

jlc712 beat me to suggesting a small banquette for the space. I drew up an L-shaped banquette for you with dimensions noted.

I made one side longer so that if you want to lounge with your feet up, you can. If you choose a folding chair for the 3rd seat, you can store this in a closet until needed, which will free up floor space. Another plus, no worry about a chair ever getting in the way of the DW.

Here's what I mean by plate display to fill in the 4 1/2" void behind the bench. You can also create a niche for art work.

Heights French Country · More Info

Hopefully the bench will clear your heating grate. Or you could do benches like this

El Dorado · More Info

btw, that banquette looks very close to the size I'm suggesting.

Rebunky - good idea about the balloon! I just pulled the table out 18" from the wall. Distance from edge of table to the bottom wall of the staircase is about 39". Do you think 30" makes sense for me? I think I could get away with 32", but I think 36" would be unnecessarily pushing it. Do you agree?

jlc712 & lisa_a - you know, one or two people suggested a banquet a month or so ago (lavendar_lass? jillius? I don't remember) and then I forgot all about that idea. Lisa - thank you so much for your illustration! There are only 58" between the DW & the window, so we'd have to shorten your long leg a bit. Hmmm. I'm wondering if I can put the idea of a banquette on hold - mostly in order to preserve what's left of my budget - and consider doing it at a later date.

Of course, though, then there's the question of where the pendant should go. I wonder if there are any affordable, pre-made banquettes that could fit. Of to do another search before bed.

Thank you!

PS: a question about banquettes: given the space, I think that an L shape makes the most sense, but it seems like that corner space is inevitably wasted space - it's an awkward area where no one could really sit. It a restaurant, it would be the place that people pile up their coats & purses. Am I right? I have this (quite likely irrational) aversion to wasted space.

Hi again, I followed some of your topics on the old site and I had a different name there, smallhouse.

I do love this rowhouse of yours, I don't recall having seen the beautiful fireplace before.

I too am struggling with seating in a small corner.

I don't know whether this was already hashed out earlier, but is there any chance of tearing out the ledge beneath the bay window? Seems like you could get some seating in there.

I think the clean, uncluttered lines of a banquette will make the space look so much bigger than the clutter of all the chair and table legs. Especially if the banquette seats are floating. Of course, if they are floating you will lose the potential storage underneath but I think for your space, that would be a great look. Of course, if budget is an issue, you could wait a year or so to build the banquette. I think it would be worth the wait.

Various thoughts:

1) It wasn't me. I think a banquette would cramp the hallway too much, and I prefer the flexibility that the table and chairs gives you. (I suspect the table and chairs will get moved around a bit when the kitchen is finally in before finding a permanent home.)

2) I do like the positioning rebunky guided you to -- with the table & chairs closer to the bay window. I wouldn't like sitting so cramped and close to the dishwasher as in the first position posted, and I like that in the second position, the table is more offset from the stairs, so there isn't as much of a pinch point there. It generally looks a lot easier and more comfortable to move around and sit at the table.

3) Did you ever try putting this small round table between the two chairs in your living room? I remember you tried it with the rectangular table and nixed it, but it was a poor approximation of this round table shape.

4) Have you considered a wall lamp or sconce with a swinging arm instead of a pendant? Like this:

http://www.wayfair.com/Norwell-Lighting-Aidan-Swing-Arm-Wall-Sconce-NRW1395.html

That would give you more flexibility. You can swing it where you have the table or shove it against the wall and out of the way if you ever have a party and move the table/chairs entirely.

If you had a pendant, I suppose you could also have a hook on the wall to snag the pendant chain on if you wanted to move it against the wall to get it out of the way.

5) Personally, I would do a can light over this table here and do a pretty, larger pendant over your living room seating area (where you currently have the track light). The living room will definitely always have furniture clustered around the real focal point of this room (the fireplace), so a pendant there seems so natural.

Another pendant hanging in the same space would compete with the living room pendant, and again, a pendant hanging over this little table limits your ability to push this little table and chairs around wherever you want them.

I understand where you're going with this pendant over the little table idea -- trying to ground and define this area -- but I think the table's current transience (in the second position) is what makes it work. Once you put in a permanent pendant, now the fact that the table isn't centered on the bump-out or that the seating area encroaches a bit on the bay window starts to look weird. And, again, it means you can't move the table.

6) You could always have the electrician rough in the wiring to the ceiling area there and leave some extra length.

We had an area in our kitchen ceiling where a new construction junction box (which is an electrical box that is designed to be installed before the drywall is installed -- these boxes are attached with screws to your framing) has nowhere to screw into. The electrician installed all the other boxes in the ceiling before drywall, but for that single weird area, the electrician ran the wiring over there and coiled it up in the bay so it wouldn't interfere with the drywall installation. Then after the drywall was in, we cut a junction box-sized hole in the drywall there, fished out the coiled-up wiring that was waiting there, and installed an old construction junction box (which is designed to be installed after the drywall is up -- the boxes attach in place with these flap things that grip the drywall).

So you could do that. Run your wire to that area of the ceiling, but leave it coiled up in the joist bay. Install the kitchen, and then move the table around till you're happy. Then install an old-construction box and either hang a pendant there if you still want one in that area or something like this (looks like a can light, but can be installed in a normal junction box):

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Unbranded-6-in-Soft-White-LED-Disk-Light-For-Recessed-Can-Lighting-CE-JB6-650L-27K-E26/203886372#specifications

Just be aware that it's a fire hazard to have wire just sitting in your ceiling and not terminated in a junction box. It's fine to have that during the course of construction, but you cannot leave it that way indefinitely. So if you run the wire to that area of the ceiling, you are committed to installing a junction box somewhere in that area of the ceiling.

Oh! Also be aware with #6 that you could never hang a very heavy pendant. I don't think you'd ever want to, but still, you should know. Like everything else, a junction box anchored to drywall cannot hold the same weight as a junction box anchored to solid wood.

Infinitylounge/smallhouse - I remember you. Nice to see you! The fireplace, sadly, is no longer functional - the chimney was knocked down & roofed over long ago. It would cost a lot of money and headache to get it functional again, but I do like the way it looks, and when I have company, I light candles in it. We had discussed the bay for seating before, but given that the bay starts only 40" from the front door, I feel it's too close to the house entry to make sense as a dining area.

Funkycamper - worth thinking about for the future (so, maybe I won't break the bank on table & chairs right now...)

Jillius - So, assuming I don't go with a banquette, at least, not until I've lived with the space & know that's what I want... I agree the rebunky's positioning is way better than I had it! I can't believe that moving it over 12" had never occurred to me.

I just moved that table over to the LR chairs, thanks for the reminder. I don't love it there. I like having my little bit of separation of areas, and it feels a bit out of proportion height-wise in the LR:

I had not thought about the swing arm wall sconce, that's got A LOT of potential! It really would give me lots more flexibility. So, after a quick search of wall sconces, it seems that the maximum extension on most of them is around 20-25". If the table is 30", and 18" from the wall Is need an extension of 33" to center the light over the table. Those lights that do have longer extensions tend to be small & delicate, and to be proportional to the room/table, I think I want a light that's got more substance. I really like this idea, and am wondering if there's a good solution to the extension/proportion thing.

For the living room - the function of the track lighting works really well for me, though I'm not fond of the look so much. I have the five bulbs of the track focused on artwork - so I get good bang for my buck. I think, were I to change LR lighting (on a budget) I'd probably exchange my IKEA track lights for a nice set of tracks. I do think the larger pendant would look nice in the LR, but I'd lose a good deal of function and would have to make up for it with added lighting & expense.

Having the electrician rough in wiring may end up making the most sense, here.

My inlaws have a table that extends to more than double its size when extended, and my MIL wanted the light to be centered even though the table extends more in one direction than the other. Their solution was a swinging arm. The combination of where the pivot is placed on the wall and the length of the arm allows the light to be centered over the table regardless of one, two or three leaves in the table. They had a local blacksmith make the pivot arm for them. Perhaps you can have something similar made. Their light is larger and heavier than anything you would want, so this could work for you.

NHBabs - Great idea! I'm sure it would cost more than I'd want to spend to have one custom made, but maybe in the future...

The table might feel out of proportion height-wise in the living room because the previous side table (stool?) between those chairs was so extremely low, much lower than a standard side table. In terms of function, the bistro table's height certainly looks a lot handier than the stool for setting down tea or a crossword puzzle or whatever the papers on the stool in previous pictures are.

I wonder if you might consider leaving the bistro table there in the living room for, say, a week? It would cost you nothing to perform such an experiment, but if by any chance after a week, you find you have gotten used to that arrangement and it works fine, that would leave the area next to the dishwasher open for either a closet or a pantry.

I know you want the closet very much, or if you went with the pantry, it would mean you could lose some of the pantry on your fridge wall in favor of more counter there. I remember you had a long debate about counter vs. storage on that wall, and this would mean you would get both.

I agree with you that a separate area for the table would be nice (it's nice to have a few options of places to be in your home), but I think if the function of the table were retained, I could deal with lack of separation in favor of a closet or more counter space.

Also, I think a sconce with a long arm with heft is absolutely possible without going custom. This one is expensive, but I found it just now in 30 seconds, so I am sure there are other options out there:

http://www.shadesoflight.com/gentleman-39-s-library-extra-long-swing-arm-wall-sconce.html

I commented on one of your previous threads as well, among other things suggesting using a Ballard banquette. I still think it might be a good option. The chairs look like a bit of a tight squeeze positioned as you have them - will people be able to get up from the table without moving the table itself? (or maybe you don't care since it will be kind of episodic?)

The other point I'd make is that I'd try to stay away from putting a round pendant over a round table -- especially since the round table is going to shift positions on a regular basis. We had our banquette and 42" round table in place before we did our kitchen, and I knew that depending on numbers of people and usage (homework vs. eating dinner) the table does get pushed back and forth quite a bit. I knew if I used a round pendant or chandelier, it would drive me crazy when they were out of center. YMMV but it's something to consider.

Whoa you received a ton of good suggestions!

I love banquettes sooo much. If you consider it, I think funky's suggestion of a more minimalistic simple design with floating bench seat would be better. I'm not sure if it a traditional upholstered banquette could work in that corner without crowding the stairs. Maybe with no chairs on the outside? Hmm...

I feel that bumpout is a real focal point between the rooms. Even though it does seem like the logical spot to center a table and hang a pendant, my gut feeling keeps saying move the table down and away from in front of the stairs. I really like having as much open space as possible when entering a room whether at a doorway or the bottom of a staircase. It's a tough call cuz that banquette sure could be cute!

Here's a new thought... What if you put a small bench (w or w/o storage) that would fit just between the right corner of the bump out and the bay window. Center the round table to the bench. That way the table isn't half across the bump out section. (I was not loving that)

Now the two chairs can go perpendicular on the sides of the table. The 4" would give a little space for some throw pillows. Or you could even make a padded seat back and velco it to the wall. I did a head board once and it was super easy. You could then center the pendant to that section of wall above the table. Could you mock that up for us to see? Im such a visual person that I cannot tell if it something will look stupid or not until I see it. Lol!

Jillius - the bottom line is that I don't like the dining table in the LR. It feels cramped, it obstructs access to the cabinet (which may end up being a place for a closet) and I don't like the idea of eating in the LR. Some things I get used to, some things I come to love. This is an idea I've just never warmed up to, and I know me well enough to know that I never will - even if it is a great idea in some objective way.

Smalloldhouse - yes, I remember you talking about Ballard, and I went to their website & just did again. It's not a look I'm fond of. I think I've got decision exhaustion, and that's making me cranky, but they're just not my style. I actually have no problem at all getting in & out of the chairs without even touching the table, and I can move each of them back another 6" or so if they're not centered on the bump out. The pendant pictured above is square - and I actually don't think I'll move the table very often - maybe if I have a party I'll move it into a corner to create more space for mingling, but, in those cases, I won't care if it's centered.

Rebunky - I do like banquettes in certain situations, I just can't really picture one in my space - and I can just imagine the cat hair - unless I go with a wood bench style. I totally agree with you now about not centering the table on the bump out. I think my second set of photos look so much less cramped than the first sets! I'm mocking up your bench-against-the-wall idea right now.

Rebunky - Photos attached. Distance between bump out edge & window
sill is 25". Bench in the photo is 27" (and obviously too low.) Is the purpose of the bench to provide additional seating for 1?

Thanks for the mock up. I do like that better. Like you said, it looks more deliberate and centered to something at least. Yeah, that bench can totally go. It is not really fitting the way I was picturing in my mind. See...I need visuals!!! :)

Yes, I guess my thinking was for a third seat that would eliminate pulling up a chair that would stick out into the walkway. Since you said that would only be done on occasion, I don't think its a big deal. You have plenty space.

I also thought maybe it would bring the table out just enough so that the pendant wouldn't hang too close to the wall when centered above the table. I think it looks fine about where you have it from that side view photo, so not an issue.

Lastly, I thought by adding a pop of color with the higher pillow back along that wall, it would draw your eye there. Then it would give a logical reason for why the dining room pendant was centered there. It would say, this space is the "dining room". If that makes any sense!

Lol on the cat hair issue. I have two little white terriers that shed like crazy, so I completely understand having less fabric to vacuum!

Rebunky - I think I do like the table over there, centered between bump out & window - it gives more air around the chairs, which I like. It does make a narrower pathway between the table & the one LR chair - but I think that there's some flexibility w/ both - move table toward wall a couple inches, move chair toward fireplace...
I've also been playing around with having the chairs on a slight angle - with backs angled toward the wall so that, from the front door, I'm not looking straight on at the back of a chair. I think I've got something to work with here that I like. Thank you.

Edited to add: This is my favorite set up so far - with the chairs across from each other, but on a diagonal. It gives a clear path from front door/LR to kitchen, view from front door isn't directly to back of chair, it provides a nice spot for scratching post :-), LR chair can be pulled up without needing to shift anything else and I actually visually like the angle.

PS: Now I'm obsessed. I just sat in each seat. Here's the view directly from them - one is to the bay, the other is to the back where the sliding door will be. Outdoor views from both seats!

I agree! This setup feels like the winner. Good job!

Carrie, that's what I was thinking also. The other set-ups did not allow for seeing outdoors. So glad that you arrived at this arrangement.

Oh, outside views! That does trump the banquette idea. Glad you found something you're excited about. Now you get to go shopping for the right table and chairs. I look forward to seeing photos of what you find.

Thanks, funkycamper! As you can imagine, I've been looking at tables - should look at chairs, too. May not buy something until after kitchen is done - try to not fill house up with stuff before I actually need it. Here's a table I like that's not too expensive (there are other ones I like, but they're $$$)

Oh, yeah, wait until the kitchen is done to buy. You'll have a much better idea of what will coordinate well. You might find a great choice at second-hand shops, tag sales, whatever. It might be fun to get something with more personality. But, wait, and it will be easier to tell. Too easy to make a mistake when the space isn't finished yet.

How about a shallow built-in banquette, to fit in between the dishwasher and window frame? That would give you a little extra seating (and if you have kitties, they'll love it! ) but you still get the great view from each chair. Just an idea :)

That's a possibility, Lavendar_lass. How far do you think I'd have to have the table pulled out for the banquette to comfortably fit a seated person?

I'm not sure, but a pedestal table makes it much easier! I know the person on the banquette should be 'under' the table when they're eating...as much as the chairs would be. I think someone (Buehl?) posted the measurements a while back. I'm guessing table should be 18" from the wall?

I think table overhangs 2" though I'm not 100% sure.

Did you see jm_seattle's banquet? At the end of the first post, there's a link to more pictures and one of the pictures show the measurements of the bench. I think it was 21-22 deep in total (seat and back).

Thanks, Sena. Jim_seattle's banquet is lovely. Measurement across the back of his is actually 48", and I'd need something half that size. If anything, I'd want it to fit in between the bump out & the window frame.

Hmm, I'm confused. If you decide to have a bench, wouldn't it be like LL showed a few posts above?

I hope jm_seattle doesn't mind, I was referring to this drawing when I said 21-22 deep bench.

Hope that makes sense.

Oh, I see. You were talking about depth, and I was talking about width.

No, if I were to do something against that wall I would want it to be no more than 24" wide. I guess that's called a "chair." It may make sense, though, to pull the table out from the wall enough to be able to seat another person back there (with a chair) should the occasion arise, and to center the pendant (which I prefer the look of) over the table that way.

I'll have to play around some more to see how far I need to pull it away, or if I'd rather just forgo the possibility of seating someone back there - since I've seated four people at my kitchen table about 4 times in the 15 years I've lived here.

Carrie, have you considered a round drop leaf dining table? For example, on Wayfair, the Liberty Creations II table is 42" round, 34"w with one leaf down, and 26"w with both down. Wayfair also had the East West Dublin Extendable dining table that is rta and less than $200. It has nine 5 star reviews. You're in the Philly area, aren't you? I looked on their craigslist under furniture by owner, drop leaf tables, and many wonderful very inexpensive ones came up.

You know, texasgal, I realized that I can (tightly) fit four chairs at the table without having one of them flat against the wall. If two are angled toward the wall, and two away from it, four can fit, and I very, very rarely have four people. I find the drop leaf tables annoying because, with a leaf down, half the table becomes completely unusable - for seating or for stuff.

I keep thinking about other options - banquet (of some stripe or another,) square table, oval, 36" round. And I keep coming back to 30" round being the most perfect table for me.

Carrie- I think if you put in a (48"?) wide banquette...something that would fit between dishwasher and window frame...it would be a better choice. This way, the table would be centered on the banquette and it would minimize that bump out.

You could have it built so that the back is 'deeper' on the part of the wall that bumps out...making the back even when sit there. That's what I was trying to show in the drawing :)

A 24" wide banquette doesn't make a lot of sense and just emphasized that change in wall depth, rather than minimize its presence in the middle of your dining area. Just my two cents....

Thanks, lavender_lass - I did understand your drawing. For me, I've decided, the chairs will work better. Thanks so much for your generosity with your thoughts and suggestions.