No takers, really? No one in this forum uses grit?

did you mean grit or gritty mix? (if I understood correctly, you were asking about DE in original post, not grit).

Napa or Kitty litter have been recommended as substitute for those not being able to find Turface IIRC - so I would say one uses what is easier to obtain.

Thanks for responding, Rina.

The grit I'm asking about is diatomaceous earth. Most people are probably familiar with DE in powdered form, but the oil and spill absorbing product is composed of granules that are the same size as Turface. Napa Floor-Dry #8822 is diatomaceous earth, and I'm pretty sure it's the most recommended Turface substitute. Turface is calcined clay though (couldn't find a product called IIRC on their site, but MVP, Quick Dry, and Pro League are all clay). Napa (or Moltan) also makes oil spill products from the same material that Turface is made, so what I'm asking is, why is a DE product recommended as a Turface substitute instead of the seemingly more similar clay products made by Napa (or Moltan), and has anyone been successful using the DE substitutes?

I ask because I'm using such a substitute in my grit, and my grit isn't living up to expectations. In fact, it's pretty sorry stuff. So before I pitch it and declare the whole experiment a failure before it's even run for a year, I'd like to investigate the possible causes, and see what experience others are having with DE Turface substitutes in their grit.

Post a pic of the mix, and maybe we can figure out why it's not performing as well as you'd like.

Josh

Thanks Josh. I don't think a picture will help. It's just two parts Grani-grit to one part equally sized DE (looks just like Turface). I left out the bark fines because I have no practical way to sift the material in my apartment, but I discussed that with Al first, and he didn't think the bark was an important constituent. The water retention of bark, he said, was about halfway between the two other constituents. I was going to make the mix 1:1, but changed to 2:1 on his recommendation. It might be better as 1:1, but before I uproot more plants and subject them to another re-pot, I want more info.

My hypothesis is that DE doesn't readily release stored water to roots. I suspect that because it appears my plants all dry out too quickly, and an experimental pothos planted in straight DE, which should've held more water than the 2:1 mix, grew only one leaf in 5 months compared to others that tripled in size in the same period.

What I really want to know is if others have successfully (or unsuccessfully) used DE in their grit. Surely some people have made Al's mix with the Napa substitute. I know of at least one member, in Australia, if I recall, who pitched his gritty mix because it didn't hold enough water, and Ive read of others complaining of poor water retention or failure to thrive. I wonder if DE might be the culprit.

I'm of the opinion that a pic always helps, especially if asking advice from others :-)

I haven't ever used DE. Auto stores, for some reason, don't carry the good DE in my area, so I've stayed with Turface which is readily available (and at a better price).

However, I know many gardeners who use DE for germinating seeds of all kinds. They even do things like put their containers of DE in a tray of water. DE gives up water no problem...just as Turface gives up water. DE, if I recall, actually holds slightly more moisture.

How often are you fertilizing?

Josh

Calcined DE in a size for size comparison holds a little more water than calcined clays, and readily gives up its water - just as Turface MVP does. How/why did you decide the soil doesn't hold enough water? What are the "problems" you're having? How long since you potted the plants? Did you bare root? What are you fertilizing with?

Perhaps the batch you made doesn't hold enough water, but since the soil allows for a considerable amount of latitude in how much water retention you can build into the soil, it's an easy fix - more Turface MVP or calcined DE and less grit - or water more often. From the plants perspective, a soil that needs more frequent watering is a GOOD thing.

If the guy in Aust understood the concept behind the soil, he would have realized how easy it is to adjust water retention. It doesn't bother me if someone just decides to give up and chuck the experiment, but if the decision is based on how much water the soil can hold, it's a misguided decision. If all someone does is follow a recipe, they missed out on the whole concept, which is what's important. ..... like that whole give a man a fish and he eats for a day - TEACH a man to fish, and he eats for a lifetime thing. The gritty mix can be made to hold so much water that the only way you can get more water retention is by altering the soil so it holds perched water, which we know to be limiting because of its affect on root vitality/health and function. Not holding a volume of water sufficient to meet a grower's expectations isn't a limiting factor, but a PWT is.

Al

OK, questions in order, then I'll post photos in separate posts so they remain with the explanations.

•Fertilizer is Foliage Pro 9-3-6, 1-2 tsp/gallon almost every watering (least for succulents, most for Aroids).

•Al, I haven't decided that it doesn't hold enough water. I've just hypothesized that plants aren't able to pull enough water from the DE. I suspect it because:

1) a Draceana that never wilted in hours of full sun when planted in a tiny container of soil, now wilts after an hour or two of full sun even through the container is easily 4 times the size of the previous. (Plants don't recover overnight unless I water them, which you said would be a sign they were over-watered).

2) A pothos I experimentally planted in straight DE, and water on the same schedule as plants in the 2:1 mix, or in a 2:1:1 mix that includes pumice, has grown only one leaf in about 5 months, whereas another pothos has tripled in size.

3) When I dig out grit from the pots that aren't doing well, it isn't shiny and wet. It feels dry but cool, and the color of the DE is tan rather than white, indicating that water is still stored inside the DE particles (which turn white when completely dry). That is why I suspect the plants aren't able to get enough water out of the DE.

•most plants were transfered to grit in October or earlier. None were in it before July.

•I bare-rooted all plants before re-potting, and I washed the soil from the roots. I also spread the roots out in the grit.

Additional info:

I know my Singoniums' roots are growing because they're growing out of the bottoms of their pots into the reservoir underneath (they're in a type of pot that's supposed to be self-watering, but I don't use them that way). Those pots might be one reason the Singoniums are doing better than plants in pots that do not have a reservoir.

I have tried watering more frequently, but haven't been successful. I tried watering less frequently and almost killed a Singonium. Normally, I water my Tropical plants in grit twice a week. Because the Draceana was wilting every time the sun came out for a few hours, I switched from twice weekly to every two days. It still wilted, but not as badly. It does best if I water it right before it goes into the sun, but after a couple of hours, there is still a droop in the leaves. Al, you might remember telling me that it shouldn't need water even every 5 days, and that if I water it every 2 days, water will probably come out the bottom if I give it a good downward, then upward jerk. It doesn't (if it has been in full sun, I haven't tried watering it every two days on overcast days).

A bamboo skewer left in the grit all the time always comes out visibly darker and feeling cool up to the soil line, indicating it has absorbed water and is still holding it, even when the Draceana wilts, whereas a fresh, dry skewer stuck into the soil for as much as a minute comes out feeling slightly cool, but not visibly damp or holding water.

My Aeonium arboretum that I planted in grit in an enormous pot was growing pretty well all winter. A week or more ago, the lower 50% of the leaves on each rosette wilted badly in midday sun. I watered it immediately. It recovered. A few days later it wilted again, which I found confusing. Since I can't easily tell with grit whether a plant is under- or over-watered, I tried the downward, the. upward motion with the pot to see if water came out the bottom. I never did find out because the rim of the pot broke and the plants and all the grit spilled out everywhere. Once spilled, I was able to examine the grit and roots though. The grit all looked and felt damp and cool, but my hands didn't get wet putting all back into the pot. I don't know how to interpret that. The roots are small, but seem healthy. I have read that Aeoniums have small root masses for their size. The little Crassula 'Blue Waves,' C. marginalis, and Echeveria pulvinata or E. harmsii in with the much larger Aeonium also have very small but seemingly healthy roots. Of course, some roots were almost certainly broken off and lost when the whole pot spilled violently. I've potted them all back up into a smaller pot in the same grit. It's been just a few days, and the Aeonium has partially recovered, but it lost quite a few leaves, and lower ones are still shriveling.

I'll add photos to additional posts.

My grit is 2 parts granite to one part diatomaceous earth (Moltan brand). This is my grit when bone dry. I don't let it get this dry in planters. Note how white the DE is.

This is freshly wetted grit. I just took the handful of grit above and ran it under water. Note how the DE darkens, and how the granite is shiny and visibly wet.

This is grit out of the crashed Aeonium pot. It's indoors now. I watered it 2 days ago. The roots aren't established, so probably just gravity and evaporation have removed any water from it.

A person known for posting outlandish claims that couldn't be supported other than by extracting small snippets of text and using them out of context, mentioned that the pores in Turface are so small that plants can't extract water from the product. That claim is off the mark in the extreme. By extension, if you're having a water retention issue (as in not enough), it's NOT because the plants cant easily extract water from either Turface or calcined DE, they can/do.

When did you repot these plants? How deep are the pots they are in? Are the roots located primarily in the upper 1/3 of the soil mass?

Al

Thank you Al. I don't know the person you speak of, and I haven't read those posts. As I said, I was only hypothesizing. I haven't determined what's going on with my grit. That's what I'm trying to find out. Maybe it isn't that they're drying too fast, but that is how it appears to me. If you say you've determined that DE releases water easily to plants, I believe you. Why not just plant in straight DE?

Your questions:

1) the most recent, the Deaceana mentioned here and in previous posts was transfered to grit in October. The pothos mentioned above was planted in straight DE around August, then moved to 2:1 granite:DE in January. All other plants were moved to grit between July and October, most in September.

2) Plants are all in pots of different sizes, depths, shapes, and types. I'll post pictures in additional posts to make it clear. The Draceana is in a very large pot, and the Aeonium's pot was even larger until it broke from the weight last weekend. I've just moved it to a smaller pot like the Draceana's.

3) I don't know how to check the roots withiut seriously disturbing them. It's not like regular soil that one can dig straight down into. It's loose, so as I dig, grit falls into the hole. I'd have to pour the grit out, essentially de-potting the plants, so I'd rather wait if possible. I can tell you that the 3 of 4 plants in pots with reservoirs under them all have roots growing through the bottoms of the pots and into the water below. That includes 2 Singoniums and a pothos. A spider plant in such a pot doesn't. I also know from the crash of the Aeonium's pot that it and the other plants with it all have very small roots. Those plants are Aeonium arboretum, Echeveria pulvinata or E. harmsii, Crassula 'Blue Waves' (a C. argentia hybrid, I think), and C. marginalis. I know the Aeonium had a tiny root ball when I got it. I think it is slightly larger now. I didn't document the roots of the other litte plants in with it, but I think I'd have remembered if they were as small as they are now, so I think the shallow/small plants' roots have shrunk in that pot while the Aeonium's roots have expanded a bit in the same pot. The Aeonium is big and it was/is planted much deeper than the other small plants that are only a couple of inches deep. Since that pot is already upset, I'll de-pot it all and photograph it for you if you think it'll help. I'm kind-of thinking its recent problem is that the Aeonium got over-watered when I was trying to keep the smaller plants watered enough because they were so shallow while the Aeonium was so much deeper.

Photos in next posts

Draceana moved to grit in October. Problem with it is that it wilts whenever it's in full sun for an hour or more. Too much water or too little?

Sorry I can't get that to load vertically (site glitch).

Aeonium, Echeveria and Crassula in smaller pot inside the pot they were in before it crashed last weekend. The old pot was very big. The new pot is identical to that of the Draceana.

The problems with this pot only became evident last week or so. The Aeonium had been growing well, but the smaller plants weren't really growing at all. I dug an inch or so down and it looked dry, so watered just the surface of the grit a few times. Around that time (don't recall if before or after) the Aeonium wilted badly. It recovered when watered, but later wilted again even worse. The rim of the pot then broke under the weight as I tried doing the jerking trick to check for perched water.

Finally, Singoniums and pothos. The Singoniums seemed to be growing fine until one suddenly almost wilted to death. You can see the leaf damage on some. It just dried out. Roots are growing through the bottom of the pot into the reservoir.

The little marble queen pothos just isn't growing worth beans. It was in straight DE from August to January, then moved to 2:1 granite to DE, but it still isn't growing new leaves despite the roots growing through the bottom into the reservoir it usually sits in.

Oh, a Marble Queen pothos in the same grit, was only about 8 leaves when I bought it in July. It's 4 times that size now. It's smaller cousin, the golden pothos was 4 leaves at that time. Now it's 5. Same growing conditions except the golden was in straight DE, the Marble was in 2:1. that, not someone else's post, lead me to hypothesize about the water retention of DE. Neither pothos has ever wilted, but I can't explain why one has grown well, and the other just sits there. That seems to indicate that straight DE does t work as well as the 2:1 mix.

Last pic is just showing a reservoir with roots growing into it. (I do not know why this site can't orient photos...grrrr).

I decided to weigh the Draceana to see how much water is in the grit at, and between, waterings. My scale is accurate to at least 1/2 gram (digital postal scale). I watered it thoroughly all over the surface until there was about 1/4" in the drain pan just as I usually do. I gave it just about 2 minutes to drain, then I set it on the scale. After weighing it, I gave it a couple downward/upward jerks to remove the majority of perched water - presumably the water that would cause a problem if I were over-watering it, and to my surprise, only 10 grams/milliliters of water came out. Ten milliliters (2 teaspoons) of extra water in a pot of that volume doesn't seem like enough to cause a problem. What do you think? I'll weight it again before I water it next time. I might even weigh it daily.

I'm not sure that too little water is the problem with the Aeonium potted with the little succulents though. My impression was that the smaller plants with shallow roots weren't getting enough water because the top inch dried out too fast, but the Aeonium, planted much deeper, was doing fine UNTIL I tried watering the surface shallowly a few times for the other plants. I suspect that water made its way down and might've wet the Aeonium too much. I don't know that though. It is just a hypothesis. They could all be suffering from too much water, too little, or some from one and some from the other. The most frustrating issue I have found with grit is that I just can't tell.

Sounds like your venting a little bit ..Airing things out still ?

I'd love some help, Nomen. I'm trying to figure out what's going on with this grit. I can't tell if the plants are getting too much or not enough water, and it seems there is no one to help once problems arise with this stuff. The only advice I got was to add more DE if it isn't holding enough water, but I don't know if it's not holding enough. Maybe it's too much. Maybe it's something else.

I also have a post in the cacti and succulents forum asking people to look at the roots of about 10 plants to help me figure out what's going on with them. Please, if you have any insight, share it. I've been battling problems with grit since shortly after I started using it last summer/fall. I don't understand the problem, and I cant seem to get any real help.

If people are afraid of making their opinions public, please email me directly. My email is my GW user name at AOL. If I can't figure out the problem, I'll have no choice but to pitch the stuff and go back to a medium I know before I lose (more) plants.

Sometimes people have things going on in their lives that can make it difficult to get to the people they'd like to help and had no intention of abandoning. I haven't been very mobile for well over a week, and I get a LOT of emails with questions about plant stuff - it bugs me when they build up to the point I can't keep up and have to start deleting some of them, so I try to answer as many as I can. Obviously, every thread I've participated in over the last month or so can't be a priority.

You're the one in the best position to determine whether you're over-watering or under-watering - or if the soil holds too little water or too much to suit you. I can't tell anything from here. Repotting in October is usually not a good idea, unless you're tending plants that are active during increasing periods of dark, and especially if the root balls are small. Those plants are likely going to be vulnerable until they are stimulated to some serious growth by the decreasing dark period and roots can colonize the bottom of the pot. The top of the soil dries out quickly, so you need to water often enough to ENSURE the roots don't dry out. If you have questions about the level of moisture in the pot - use a wood dowel as a tell. It works great and should point you in the right direction.

Even though I'd hate to see you toss your hands in the air and just give up, your choosing that route doesn't really say anything about the soil, other than at this point you haven't quite figured out what correction(s) need to be made. The issues you're facing might very well be completely unrelated to the soil, but you do need, somehow, to figure out the watering/ water retention thing or go back to what you were used to (or a variation thereof).

Al

Thanks, Al. I'm sorry to seem pushy. I appreciate your help and all you do. I'm just frustrated and confused.

I don't find the dowel/skewer to be helpful with grit. It never comes up wet or discolored, but it's usually cool. Is that enough water? It's winter, but my tropicals are being watered twice a week, and my succulents once a week.

I have a post in the cacti forum showing the roots of about ten plants that aren't doing well in grit. Maybe you can tell from those photos whether they're being under- or over-watered, or what change I need to make to the mix. The Aeonium arboreum 'Zwartkopf' you've seen before is one of them. Here is that post:

http://forums.gardenweb.com/discussions/2904231/how-do-these-roots-and-plants-look-to-you

Opinion(s) ? Mine ?

For starters I don't see anything all that wrong with your plants on the C&S thread.

I do think they should be in a pot, aside from the grits you have in the C&S pics I wouldn't worry to much about the mix as it is seen Minor nic pic if me I'd add a pinch or two of organic matter to help keep things softer but isn't really a must.

Are you over watering ? As Al said ONLY you can tell... but (out of context & by fact) the plant can "tell" you too . I say "send that dowel in the trash direction your roots don't need it."

Why should you keep some of your plants in grits ? It's harder to over water in a pot thats to big and it's even more difficult to under water a pot that might be a size to small for the plant.

Review ?

Sorting them out : It's a one plant per one pot cultivating here. I don't have time to deal with how much more of a nightmare it would be if I had a bunch of multiple plants in a smaller number of pots.

Fact is the modge podge plant cultivating in a single pot then callling it collecting is not the better practice. <I> Why I dont express my opinions every chance I get</I> It's like talking to a wall I'd rather save the time and not even mention plant growing discipline to them.

What do I think ? I think you need to give them slow growing succulents of yours a chance, please don't compare your ( new to you) slow growing sucs to anyone elses who already has an older plant.

You have a summer grower ? You have a winter grower ? Before you answer it helps to understand that you MAY also have an opertunistic grower(s).

A bit complex to sort out ? if a plant has the oppurtunity to grow and is in the right conditions it will. Mentioning because they are a few of them in both of the succulent world(s) most people accedently or for reason teach them to grow at certain times of the year for eaiser managing.

I have all sorts of plants in gritty mix. Orchids, cactus, begonia, citrus, amaryllis, and some carnivorous plants. As you can see a hodge podge of plants and have never had problems like your having. I used napa 8822 instead of turface but i also used pumice in equal amounts. I water on a schedule (once a week during winter more in summer) and I soak them for an hour at a time. I hope you find your way with the gritty mix, it makes watering harder in summer but keeping plants indoors for winter a breeze. Jack

Thanks, Jack! Good to here from someone in the same climate! May I ask what the ratios are in your grit, exactly? Maybe I need to adjust my mix to be more like yours. My DE is identical to your Napa 8822, and I have pumice, but it's not in this particular mix.

My plants all get direct sun (when we have it) from either a southern window, or on a south-facing balcony, and I don't soak them. I used to dunk, but dropped or spilled a couple pots from constantly messing with them. Now I'm watering from the top, which is REALLY difficult with pots of dense rosette succulents, so I squirt between leaves. I had an aloe drop a center leaf just from being slightly wet from watering.

Are your plants indoors or out? Direct sun? Keep your home warm (mine is very cool). Thanks so much for adding to the conversation.

Modge podge: Does this sound like the right thing to do? Somebody grow a cactus and a citrus in the same pot because each plant in the same pot has and uses the exact same watering regement in close to the very same (inside or outside) climatic conditions provided ?

Aloe is one plant of my few species I don't pot them in the same pot that has a different aloe in it

Reasoning why not. Well each of them need room to grow and Yet ( as of latley) I also keep em seperate helps cause not all my aloes require watering on the same day Though that day will come for me it's just not today.

Three weeks ago they all got a short drink that took less than three minutes with open misting spray, today by chance ONLY one of these aloes could use anouther low volume watering.

inside at the window of any Aloe plant would have it's brightness dreams come true wwere it's been sence November last watering three weeks ago and very happy waiting for the next. Waiting for the next ? By a hour long soaking suggestion They'd be near life ending dried out while waiting for that drenching hour long drenching drink as well.

Look at the bright side your plants dont know what zone there in it gets as warm & even hotter here than in the homelands of mine as well, Of the several species of plants I have I have yet to soak any of them that long

I'm not presenting this as anything more than a single anecdote, but I did grow Jade cuttings in my Moro blood orange container. I watered and fertilized that container heavily, the way the citrus wanted, and those Jade cuttings were the happiest, most robust cuttings I've ever grown.

Josh

On that same note, I have an Aeonium cutting that I stuck in with a little Western Sword Fern, and it's growing every bit as well as the cuttings in grit. Incidently, of my 4 jades, the two that have grown are in soil, or soil and pumice. The two in grit are just sitting there. (Edit: I actually have 6 jades. I forgot 2. All the soil jades are doing better than the grit jades, and small pots are doing better than large pots. I believe it's all explained by how fast the grit dries. Once weekly watering isn't enough for shallowly rooted succulents in deep pots of grit).

People do grow mixed containers all the time, so if the plants have the same requirements, I think it's okay to grow them together. Issues might arise from it, like one crowding or shading the other, or as I'm experiencing, differences in root depth causing moisture issues. Everything has pros and cons.

Anyway, Nomen, I'm not comparing my succulents to anyone else's. I'm seeing roots and foliage decline or disappear completely in my grit pots. I started a thread in the cacti forum with photos of the roots titled "how do these roots and plants look to you?"

[https://www.houzz.com/discussions/how-do-these-roots-and-plants-look-to-you-dsvw-vd~2904231[(https://www.houzz.com/discussions/how-do-these-roots-and-plants-look-to-you-dsvw-vd~2904231)

In the same way that 'proper' pot size becomes less of a consideration as the amount of perched water a soil holds decreases, until it becomes virtually a nonfactor when growing in media soil that don't hold perched water, the variety of species you can you can combine and grow in good health in mixed containers increases as the PWT disappears, leaving light as the delineating factor.

In a well made gritty mix, you can grow a jade plant + the sun tolerant varieties of coleus or impatiens (or all 3) in the same pot. It's unlikely you'd be able to manage that successfully in water retentive soils that are based on large fractions of fine ingredients.

Al

I stumbled onto sort of the opposite problem with grit. In a large community pot, the surface dries so fast that shallow plants don't get enough water, while deep plants get too much. My Aeonium was drowning while my Exheveria and wavy jade were dying of thirst. I guess the moral of the story is: know your media. Every medium has its drawbacks.

Where is "here" for you, Nomen? You aren't also in the Pacific NW US, are you? Where is your homeland?

There is someone on here who grows succulents in Nova Scotia, and I read posts by another who grows lithops in Sweden or Norway. Yep, plants only know what you "tell" them.

There is no such thing as deep-rooted and shallow rooted plants in containers. A plant with a shallow root system just hasn't had time to colonize the entire soil mass, or conditions are so poor deep in the pot that roots CAN'T grow there - or they are in a cycle of death followed by regeneration, then death again ..... As long as the medium is well-aerated and doesn't hold perched water, even plants with reputations for being shallow-rooted will happily colonize the entire soil mass with roots - even if the pot was 10 ft deep. If you want to place 2 plants side by side in the same pot, one with roots at the bottom of a long stem and the other being a shorter plant with roots just below the lowest foliage, you simply remove a good fraction of the roots from the longer plant and prune some of the foliage off the shorter plant so you can plant it deeper. Presto - the roots are now on the same horizontal plane and getting the same amount of water.

Al

By deep and shallow plants, I mean plants that currently have deep roots vs. plants that currently have shallower roots, like the little tuft of roots on a rooted Echeveria rosette vs. the roots on a 2' Aeonium.

I'm sure the technique you describe works for most plants, but it can't always be done. I refer you to my "how do these roots look to you" post in the cacti forum showing the Aeonium and smaller succulents that were in with it. There is no practical way to put the roots of the Aeonium and those of the other plant at the same depth, and the shallower plants' roots died away. When I tried to surface water to feed just those shallower roots, the water ran down and wet the Aeonium too much. In that case, it's just a drawback of grit because the water runs through so fast, and the top dries out. It's an issue I haven't encountered in other media.

I'm not trying to discredit you, the media, or the science behind it, but grit isn't fool-proof. There are advantages and disadvantages with everything, and I think it's better to acknowledge them so people know limitations, requirements, possible pitfalls, and what to expect beforehand getting into anything.

I'm one of the first to acknowledge or point out any limitations inherent in either the 5:1:1 mix or the gritty mix. In this case, you're using a soil 'sort of' like the gritty mix, but not the gritty mix. You have plants that were repotted in the fall and then lifted from the soil so you could inspect the roots - and were subjected to either over or under-watering - we don't know which. So there were a good number of practices the plants were subject to that I would have advised against. There is no way I would have suggested that you start repotting plants in the middle of winter. Additionally, you have no experience growing in a medium like the gritty mix, so to assume the shortcomings associated with your efforts are the soil's fault isn't logical. If many are able to grow plants that exhibit excellent vitality in the gritty mix or by just efficiently implementing the concept behind the soils, how can any one grower blame the soil or the concept? The soil is pretty much an inert mass of materials that CAN make your life easier, but the grower's obligation doesn't stop at providing a good medium.

There is no practical way to put the roots of the Aeonium and those of the other plant at the same depth. I refer you to my "how do these roots look to you" post in the cacti forum ....

It was those plants I was thinking about when I offered that suggestion.If you really believe what you said, we can be sure you shouldn't have tried it; but there IS a way to do it, it just requires a little patience. If you really wanted to pot the shortest AND tallest plants together, you might have planned ahead, instead of just doing it; and, it would be no problem to do it in the summer, I've done exactly what you attempted many times. If you really were intent on doing it, all you would need to do is lop off the bottom of the tall plants and start the tops as cuttings; or, lop off the top of the tall plants and discard them - then plant the roots at the same depth as the shorter roots. The formerly tall plants would have back-budded and you wouldn't be plagued with the issues you're dealing with now. Blaming the soil is like blaming a bicycle you don't know how to ride or a math problem you don't know how to solve.

Al

Holy cow, Al! It seems you very quickly become defensive of grit, even when it isn't under fire. You aren't being fair, or helpful, and you've accused me of making statements I never made. I said, "the moral of the story is: know your medium." I don't know how you interpreted that, or anything else I said, as blaming the medium, but now I see how grit has become a point of contention on the forum.

"I'm one of the first to acknowledge or point out any limitations inherent in either the 5:1:1 mix or the gritty mix."

I don't recall these discussions. In your opinion/experience, what are those limitations?

"In this case, you're using a soil 'sort of' like the gritty mix, but not the gritty mix."

I thought I was using a medium almost exactly like your 1:1:1. If I thought it was significantly different, I wouldn't have used it. I have depended on your advice throughout this process. Perhaps you don't remember me consulting you before I mixed it. You told me the bark wasn't important, and was really just there for those who weren't comfortable without an organic fraction. You also said DE was a perfectly acceptable substitute for Turface, and it was on your advice that I made my mix 2 parts granite to 1 part DE instead of the 1:1 ratio I'd have thought. You didn't warn me that it wouldn't perform the same (and I don't think we know that, still). I'm not blaming you, but I also don't think it's fair of you to blame me. This was a joint effort - done with your advice, knowledge, and blessing.

"You have plants that were repotted in the fall and then lifted from the soil so you could inspect the roots - and were subjected to either over or under-watering - we don't know which."

You can't blame pulling the plants since that wasn't done until just a few days ago, when it was obvious that something was very wrong. and we'd been unable to figure it out. My only recourse was to pull the plants and check the roots because they were ALREADY dying. Not being able to readily tell whether a plant is over- or under-watered is a frustrating drawback of grit.

I also followed your advice on how and when to water. I took every piece of advice you gave me. One of the purported advantages of grit is that it's almost impossible to over-water, so do you really think that watering succulents in grit once a week was too much, especially since some of the affected plants are winter-growers, and they were in direct sunlight and reasonably warm? We don't know that they weren't overwatered, but it seems unlikely.

"There is no way I would have suggested that you start repotting plants in the middle of winter."

C'mon, Al. October 15 is mid-autumn, not the middle of winter, and for a summer-dormant species like the Aeonium and jades, hardly an inappropriate time to pot, especially since I bought the Aeonium already uprooted. Please don't exaggerate to make me look foolish.

"Additionally, you have no experience growing in a medium like the gritty mix, so to assume the shortcomings associated with your efforts are the soil's fault isn't logical. If many are able to grow plants that exhibit excellent vitality in the gritty mix or by just efficiently implementing the concept behind the soils, how can any one grower blame the soil or the concept? ...the grower's obligation doesn't stop at providing a good medium.

Who blamed the soil or the concept? I didn't. Whose post are you reading? And I haven't ASSUMED anything. I base all my hypotheses on evidence. My approach is ANYTHING BUT illogical. Go back and read all my posts on the subject of grit, and find me a single example in which I'm illogical. I resent that remark. It's entirely off-base.

I simply pointed out a difference between grit and other media I've used: the top of grit dries very fast. Do you deny that? You can't easily tell if the plants are getting too much or not enough water. Do you deny that?

"There is no practical way to put the roots of the Aeonium and those of the other plant at the same depth. I refer you to my "how do these roots look to you" post in the cacti forum ....

It was those plants I was thinking about when I offered that suggestion."

What suggestion? I'm not sure what you're referring to here.

"...there IS a way to do it, it just requires a little patience. If you really wanted to pot the shortest AND tallest plants together...you might've planned ahead instead of just doing it...and it would've been no problem to do it in the summer...all you would need to do is lop off the bottom of the tall plants and start the tops as cuttings; or, lop off the top of the tall plants and discard them - then plant the roots at the same depth as the shorter plants."

I said practical way to do it. I don't consider chopping a lovely plant in half to be very practical. I like my Aeonium at its current height. I don't want to cut it in half, at least not now or then, especially since when I potted it, I had just rescued it from poor conditions at the nursery. It was on its side, uprooted, and had to be potted - which is why it was put in grit in October (actually more likely August or early September) - it couldn't wait. You, yourself told me that I'd made the right choice in not cutting it back until it had recovered.

Furthermore, since Aeonium's are summer-dormant, fall would seem a fine time to transplant them. In fact, the Aeonium was growing VERY WELL this winter after I planted it, so the re-potting isn't to blame. The problem didn't arise until I discovered the smaller plants were apparently water-stressed, and I tried to surface water just for them. That IS something one can do in most soils. It doesn't work well in grit. Get as defensive as you please; accuse me of "blaming" the medium if you like, but the truth remains the same: water doesn't stay on the surface of grit like it does in more absorbent media. That isn't criticism or blame. It's an observable difference between two types of media.

"Blaming the soil is like blaming a bicycle you don't know how to ride or a math problem you don't know how to solve."

Again, I didn't blame anything. I simply sought help and advice for a problem I had with my plants growing in grit because grit is different from what I'm used to. I didn't expect to be hauled over the coals for seeking help.

I'm not particularly defensive of the soils I use or suggest because I know w/o doubt that the concept they embody is absolutely solid. There is little I can do at this point to help you because I'm chasing my tail and you have your own obstacles to overcome. I always feel obligated to help other growers who need guidance, but unfortunately, I've lost that sense of obligation as it relates to your problems. It's not that I don't have the capacity to help, it's because our ability to communicate has suffered blows that sort of took the fun out of helping. I hope you fare well & find a speedy resolution to each and every growing issue you struggle with. Best luck to you.

Al

This is why I'm taking some time away from this site. I hate this constant back and forth nonsense. This isn't a site for people that love gardening, it's for people that love arguing.

Enjoy your break, Elizabeth :-)

Josh