RdV cane hardiness & shade tolerance?

9 years ago

I was wondering if anyone grows Reine des Violettes in zone 4. Is it cane hardy in zone 4 or will it form a small shrub?

Also, I remember reading that some HPs preferred afternoon shade. Could RdV been grown in part shade like many hybrid musks or the whole idea is a mixture of wishful thinking and cabin fever?!

- Bob

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AquaEyes 7a NJ

9 years ago

last modified: 9 years ago

I don't remember scent from the leaves/stems, but the flower itself was very fragrant. As far as color of the flowers, these pics captured it well. Keep in mind this is still a baby.

:-)

~Christopher

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Comments (53)

true_blue
Original Author
9 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
Thanks a lot seil. That's very helpful :-)
nippstress - zone 5 Nebraska
9 years ago
My experience exactly mirrors Sharon's with my RdV, and I'm in zone 5. I think this is a good rose for zone 4, and it can handle part sun OK, but if you wanted rebloom it's unlikely in part sun.

I've also learned that some roses sold as RdV by good vendors don't seem to be the same thing. Supposedly RdV is thornless and a rebloomer, but mine is thorny and mostly a once-bloomer. Still well worth it and a stunner when she blooms. I'll post a picture of her in the "good little girl" phase of bloom, then another with her disguised with clematis once she's given up on blooming.

Tired mode (by mid-June, last year)

Cynthia
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true_blue
Original Author
9 years ago
Thanks Cynthia, makes sense. I like it both good & bad girl :-) Are the clematis jackmani and duchesses of Edinburgh?
mariannese
9 years ago
I'm in zone 5 in Sweden which means a short and cool summer. My RdV gets full sun and reblooms well but is not as tall as it would be in a better climate.
true_blue thanked mariannese
nippstress - zone 5 Nebraska
9 years ago
True-blue - the white clematis is indeed Duchess of Edinburgh, but I'm pretty sure the purple isn't Jackmanii since I only have one of those and it's on the back fence. My best guess at present would be Hagley Hybrid, since I have several of those, but I think of it as a less blue-purple than this. Sometimes I don't know, as I tend to plant clematis willy-nilly (as I'd mentioned in a recent clem thread of mine).

Mariannese - it's good to know RdV can rebloom under good conditions. Still, she's a nice rose for this spot all things considered.

Cynthia
true_blue
Original Author
9 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
Cynthia do you remember if the stems and buds were odorous, I believe they are pepper scented. If not then maybe you've got a wrong ID rose.

Thanks for the clematis info. Apparently the original Duchess was a scented clematis.

Mariannnes, when you say "is not as tall as it would be in a better climate" do you mean the canes get "pruned" by the cold or that the plant is not vigorous?
true_blue
Original Author
9 years ago
Cynthia, I came upon this thread. It seems that there are two versions of RdV. The thorny one comes from Heirloom. If you scroll down to trospero's post, you can see the side by side photo of both roses.
AquaEyes 7a NJ
9 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
I never went back to that thread after getting "the real thing", so I'll continue it here.

I ended up getting another 'Reine des Violettes' from Vintage Gardens, and this was the one I planted in the garden. I still have the one from Heirloom Roses in a pot. They are definitely two different roses. The one from Vintage Gardens had more of a bluish-gray bloom to its canes, had only four or five small thorns at the base of one stout cane, and had much more noticeable blue notes in its bloom. The one from Heirloom Roses was more of a lilac-pink bloom, has red bases to its stipules, and had more narrow leaves. If you search 'Reine des Violettes' on HelpMeFind, you'll see a "Reine des Violettes -- Helle Variante" entry. Pictures there more closely resemble what Heirloom Roses sells.

These two pics illustrate the most apparent differences (to me) between what I got from Vintage Gardens (here) and what I got from Heirloom Roses (here). Note that in the first pic, the leaves are more rounded and the stipules are green, while in the second pic, the leaves are more narrow and the stipules are red.

:-)

~Christopher
true_blue
Original Author
9 years ago
Christopher, thanks for the update. Did you notice any pepper scent on the leaves/stems of the Vintage one?

Also, is the color close to Sweet Chariot's?
true_blue
Original Author
9 years ago
Thanks for the links. It reminds me of the color of Sweet Chariot.

Many mention the peppery scent of the leaves, stems and buds.

As for the variations, the 3rd discussion on HMF mentions imposters in Germanic countries, including Helle. Probably Heirloom imported it from there.
AquaEyes 7a NJ
9 years ago
Sorry, this was my first time trying to put pics in the new Houzz format. The whole reason I opened a PhotoBucket account was for sharing pics on here -- and now that doesn't seem to work. So I had to download the album (which completely mixed up the order I had on the Photobucket Album -- have to tend to that later) and upload the pics here.

:-/

~Christopher
true_blue
Original Author
9 years ago
I know Christopher. Some people have managed to find a way to post from photo bucket if you're on windows.

I'll post the link tomorrow:-)
KnoxRose z7
9 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
I just want to chime in and say that I bought RDV from the Antique Rose Emporium last summer and it is definitely the real deal, it only has like 2 thorns on the whole plant (granted it is still small) but except for those the canes are very smooth to the touch, and the couple of "thorns" that are there are very fat & blunt, almost like they are "lumps" & not necessarily sharp thorns, as pictured in the photos of the fake RDV on the other thread mentioned above. Since I bought it in summer of last year I have never seen it bloom, but just from the photos of the canes and leaves alone, I can tell it is the right kind, it does have a very bluish undertone as Christopher describes & the leaves are very round and close together, with a slight puckering in the center as in the comparison photos on this and the other thread.

So just in case someone was searching for another source for the real RDV, go to Antique Rose Emporium, I was VERY satisfied with my orders from them last year.

**********I do have a question for anyone who owns or has seen a MATURE REAL RDV, what would you say the average size for the plant is? What about in a zone 6/7? I fear that all the estimates on size I have heard for this rose are for the fake variety. I plan on planting my RDV in the ground this spring, and I am trying to figure out where it will go, and the finished size will heavily impact this! Any input would be greatly appreciated!

Jessica.
true_blue thanked KnoxRose z7
true_blue
Original Author
9 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
Christopher as promised here is the link to the thread where the discuss how to post directly into Houzz. Check Paul's thread post and there is a screen capture. It works only on PC as far I know.

Basically:

1) Click on photo.

2) Paste the direct link URL into file name space

3) Click open

and voilà....
AquaEyes 7a NJ
9 years ago
Thanks so much! I'll edit my previous post as a test.

:-)

~Christopher
AquaEyes 7a NJ
9 years ago
OK, that didn't work. When I click "Photo", it opens a window for a file search. I'll have to play with it a bit more.

:-/

~Christopher
seil zone 6b MI
9 years ago
Mine is virtually thornless all the time. It's my favorite rose to prune for just that reason. Unfortunately, because it's so hardy, I rarely have to prune it, lol! I've never smelled the canes or leaves so I couldn't say if it smells peppery. The blooms are the MOST fragrant ones in my yard and if there is any breeze you can smell them all the way across the yard. If you spray or if you can live with some black spot It's a wonderful rose!
true_blue thanked seil zone 6b MI
Meganemelia Zone 5 ny state
9 years ago
Hi I bought a Reine de violette last year from Pickering. I did get one teeny bloom last spring that looks similar to the ones above. Looking forward to this year. Last spring when I would brush up against the foliage , I would smell a delicious rosy spicy smell. Sometimes I would pick a few leaves just to smell the fragrance of them. Oh, the stem would also leave a scent on your fingers too.
true_blue thanked Meganemelia Zone 5 ny state
Meganemelia Zone 5 ny state
9 years ago
I meant to add ... Your clematis are so beautiful nipstress!! I will have to order one of those white ones. At first I thought it was a peony!!
fduk_gw UK zone 3 (US zone 8)
9 years ago
The RdV threads have been a fascinating education, thank you all. I have two, acquired late last year, one of which is thornless and didn't bloom, and one which is thorny and bloomed pinker than I was expecting last year. That didn't worry me too much because I'd heard that early blooms can be atypical, but even before it bloomed, I'd been dubious about it, because I was sure I'd read RdV was thornless. Although a newbie, I knew 'thornless', and completely thornless are different things, but I really didn't think this particular plant could reasonably be described as smooth.

I shall go out and look at them both tomorrow and see if there's any identifiably useful foliage yet.
true_blue
Original Author
9 years ago
Try rubbing the stems and leaves and see if you can detect the peppery fragrance....
nippstress - zone 5 Nebraska
9 years ago
Thanks for posting that thread True-Blue, and Christopher and Sharon for the additional pictures. Mine definitely has the peppery smell to the foliage, another reason I love to have it on the swing to rub as I go by. Still, mine definitely has more of the lilac-pink coloring (haven't noticed the stipules), and it's notably thorny, so I think it's probably one of the "imposters". However, I got mine from High Country Gardens, so I'd have to check with them to see what they think. My plant never seems to get that lovely greyish tinge Paul showed in that attached thread, but it's also a once bloomer. Even the Helle Variation RdV is listed as reblooming throughout the season, so I don't really know what to call mine. I'll keep her labeled in my books as RdV or maybe put it in quotes, but know that I don't have the definitive version. Maybe I'll order it one of these days from ARE.

Thanks for the compliments, Meganemelia! You'll love having clematis around, and NY state should be good for clems to grow. Just make sure to give them something to climb on. As I'd mentioned in another thread, the roses can't possibly keep up with the clematis even in a good year, so don't necessarily rely on the rose to hold up the clematis. Altogether a recommended plant for the garden, and easy care to boot.

Cynthia
true_blue
Original Author
9 years ago
You're most welcome Cynthia.

The only way to know for sure is to get another plant and check them side by side :-)

However, if yours is thorny and a once bloomer, it couldn't be the original plant could it?

On the other hand RdV is a heavy feeder. Maybe if you give your "RdV" seconds, she might oblige?

I found that growing non-clinging clematis, like Arabela at the feet of roses could be quite rewarding.
User
9 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
..my plant arrived today from Beales... I've just planted it... not a prickle to be seen, but it does say on the label ''almost thornless'' so I have to expect one or two I suppose.... as it's from Beales, with their reputation, one would expect this to be the true variety and I hope the colour is more purple than pink... my soil is neutral....

..I should add this is a bare root grafted plant of course....
Meganemelia Zone 5 ny state
9 years ago
Hi looks like a very healthy bare root. I would love to see a photo when it blooms! Here in upstate ny we still have two and a half feet of snow. I envy your mild British climate!
true_blue
Original Author
9 years ago
Congrats Marlorena. Lucky you, Still a couple of month till spring here :-)
User
9 years ago
..thank you both....I'm sorry to hear you're both snowed in where you are...but I expect you catch up as soon as the weather changes... you'll get a better summer than we get most like...

...I'd been meaning to get this rose for some time as it was the favourite of someone I knew who passed away a couple of years ago... he loved old roses and grew many... so I've given this a most favourable spot... this thread sort of reminded me to do just that...
true_blue
Original Author
9 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
I love In memoriam stories. It is the best way to cherish the souvenir d'un(e) ami(e)....
sultry_jasmine_nights (Florida-9a-ish)
9 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
Marolorena, looks like you got a nice plant. I hope it does well for you. I also have a grafted one on order. We will see how it likes my hot humid weather lol. The lavenders and purples are my favorite for roses. I should probably give it some afternoon shade here. We do have several huge oaks that give dappled shade/sun, I wonder if that would be okay? That is were I plant my hydrangeas that need a bit of shade.
User
9 years ago
...I wouldn't know about that in your climate...maybe for the best in some shade.... mine will get the full blast of the sun... full blast is more wishin' and hopin' than expecting...

...I do hope we can all compare our new plants later this year and see how we've all got on... that would be brilliant...
sultry_jasmine_nights (Florida-9a-ish)
9 years ago
I think it would be fun to compare notes as ours grow. I will post a pic of mine when it gets here too. I will probably put it in a pot so I can move it around the yard and see where it's "happy place" is lol.
Meganemelia Zone 5 ny state
9 years ago
Great ideas, will be fun to see how we all get on with Reine dv. Mine is located in semi shade I guess. Shade thru the morning and then some sun in afternoon. I don't know how that will affect the flower colors. I'm hoping it is in its happy place!,, it was listed as tolerating shade at the Pickering roses website.
sultry_jasmine_nights (Florida-9a-ish)
9 years ago
I got mine in the mail from DA a few days ago. It is grafted. Does anyone know if the RDV from DA is the true/correct RDV?
AquaEyes 7a NJ
9 years ago
One thing I've noticed is that the "real" RdV (mine from Vintage Gardens) seems to have green and white at the bases of the stipules, while the "imposter" (mine from Heirloom Roses) seems to have red at the bases of the stipules. Another more subtle difference is that the "real" one has a bit of a bluish-gray "bloom" to the mostly smooth canes (I noticed three small prickles at the base of one of the stouter canes on mine), while the other has more numerous, short, thin, "Gallica-like" prickles over most of the canes. Of course, if there are other "imposters" out there, you may notice other differences. But looking through pics on HelpMeFind for both 'Reine des Violettes' and "Reine des Violettes -- Helle Variante", I notice that the more purplish flowers tend to follow with the traits I mentioned for the "real" one, while many of the pinker flowers tend to follow with the traits I mentioned for the imposter. Of course, soil conditions will affect the degree to which this rose "purples", so some of the pinker flowers look like they're growing on the "real" RdV. But I didn't find the more purple blooms on plants with red bases to the stipules. Again, this is just my scanning of pics on HelpMeFind and comparing my own two plants -- I'm not an expert.

:-)

~Christopher
sultry_jasmine_nights (Florida-9a-ish)
9 years ago
Here is mine. It does seem to have some tiny thorns on it. Hmmm. Does this meant it isn't the real deal? I just have it in a 7.5 gallon pot for now. I will pot on as I need to. I take off the DA tags and put on my own metal ones that you write on.
gnabonnand
9 years ago
Got mine from the Antique Rose Emporium in Texas many years ago. It's fully mature now. Easy to keep pruned to about 5 ft tall. If left on its own, would grow much taller, then gracefully arch over. It's the real deal, almost completely thornless, but the rare occasional thorn will appear every now and then. Perfection in old rose fragrance ... very consistently fragrant. Reblooms fairly well considering it's a Hybrid Perpetual (once fully established). Can't imagine being without it in my garden.
AquaEyes 7a NJ
9 years ago
Though it's hard to tell with your rose, those pics make me lean toward the "real" RdV. I see the "blue-gray bloom" on yours that I see on my "real" RdV but which is absent from my "imposter" RdV. My "imposter" RdV has more numerous thorns than yours, while my "real" RdV has only a few, they're widely-spaced, they look like yours, and they're only on the bottom of the stoutest cane (like yours). My "imposter" RdV has thorns continuing up the new wood, while my "real" RdV does not. When yours leafs out, you'll be able to check the stipules, as well as looking for thorns on new growth.

:-)

~Christopher
sultry_jasmine_nights (Florida-9a-ish)
9 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
I will just have to wait until it gets some foilage then lol. Does your impostor have the peppery scent to the leaves? I wonder if mine will.

Looking at my bare root and then at Marlorena's (in the above pic), hers seems to be completely thornless.
AquaEyes 7a NJ
9 years ago
I think that's simply because the pic doesn't show the bottoms of the canes, which is the only area my "real" RdV has those same few prickles.

:-)

~Christopher
User
9 years ago
..just to say that mine doesn't have any prickles/thorns at all, even at the base...so far... although I agree that I also think SJN's rose is likely to be the real one....as gnabonnand says, we have to expect a few here and there...
..I've even got a couple on my Zephirine Drouhin....
sultry_jasmine_nights (Florida-9a-ish)
9 years ago
Mine has finally leaved out and I rubbed the leaves this morning and got a very peppery scent! Does this mean that it IS the real RdV? Does the fake one also have this scent?
AquaEyes 7a NJ
9 years ago
Look at the stipules, and read back on my comments about differences I see between the one from Vintage Gardens and the one from Heirloom.

:-)

~Christopher
mad_gallica (z5 Eastern NY)
9 years ago
I have an imposter that has the most amazingly fragrant leaves. It almost rivals eglanteria.
sultry_jasmine_nights (Florida-9a-ish)
9 years ago
Here is a pic of mine. It finally bloomed. I only let it have one flower bud and pinched off the rest for the health of the plant since its a baby. It is a little more lilac than in the photo. My phone camera didn't pick it up very well. Our weather has been in the mid 80's and rainy and muggy.
seil zone 6b MI
9 years ago
She's beautiful! Don't worry about her being tiny. It may take a year or so but when she decides to take off there's no stopping her!
sultry_jasmine_nights (Florida-9a-ish)
8 years ago
Update on my RdV it grew about 3 ft and now just sent out a 5 1/2 ft cane that is flopping over lol. Do you guys espalier your RdV roses or just let them flop. I am afraid it might get broken off.
seil zone 6b MI
8 years ago
If you have the room just let it fountain. It will be spectacular. I don't have a lot of space so I tie mine up to a trellis but I try and curve the canes around in circles so I get more laterals and bloom. I wouldn't worry about them breaking. They're incredibly supple and tough. She's taken down three different trellises for me already!
sultry_jasmine_nights (Florida-9a-ish)
8 years ago
Seil, Your RdV is soooo Gorgeous! Thanks for the info on the tough canes. I won't worry about her then and will just let her do her thing lol.
Meganemelia Zone 5 ny state
8 years ago
Wow, that is one amazing rose! How old is it?