The higher ceiling will look better when you paint those walls! :)

I kept the small island with prep sink under the low ceiling, but the other side of the counter (stool side...I like those better too in the space) would be under the higher ceiling.

This is probably not your style....but years back, my friend would have painted 'faux' windows with shutters on those high walls, after painting them warm white. Of course, she's a great painter....so her whole restaurant had faux stone walls, crumbling plaster and ivy. But unlike so many 'tuscan' kitchens....it actually looked good! LOL

I'll be coming back to this thread soon with more drawings for feedback.

myfoursons & jlc712 - thank you for the compliments on the cedar plank ceiling! :)

lavender_lass - thank you for explaining the layout for the sink. I'm still working on some drawings to scale and some measurements.
I agree that the "wall of doom" will look much better when painted. But I hear you about the mural! I envisioned some kind of beautiful, hand painted Chinoiserie wallpaper up there, but couldn't quite work out how that would go with the cedar planks. Also, need to win the lottery first. :)

Don't we all! LOL

I agree with the others that when it's painted that wall will be much better. It also looks like the perfect place for some wonderful metal wall art. A while back when I was looking for some smaller metal wall art to put on the wall behind our wood stove, I saw some beautiful pieces that I wish I'd had a place for. Look at that wall as an opportunity!

Anne

Deleted duplicate post.

This post was edited by jimandanne_mi on Mon, Dec 22, 14 at 15:53

I'd like that wall a lot better with an octagonal window up there. You should ask your contractor to poke around and see if you can figure out if the roof is framed with a truss or not.

marcolo - I will definitely be getting someone to poke around up there, because my dream of a skylight will depend on the roof truss issue / expense. I totally ♥ the idea of a window in that wall.

PS. I'm still trying to figure out what outed me as a Canadian. I managed to get through my posts without saying "sorry" even once, so it can't be that. It must have been my overarching politeness that gave me away.

jimanddanne_mi
I really like your spin - I will look at that space as an opportunity from now on :)

I have Canadian in-laws. I have to make a friggin tourtière tonight.

None of you hosers can sneak one past me.

Well, DH and I spent a lot of time over the holidays arguing about discussing the layout options.
He really wants an island. Based on that, (and only IF we can come up with a great layout), we are willing to give up the kitchen table and eat dinner in the dining room every day, and have counter seating facing each other for lunches / quick meals. I don't know if I'm 100% on board, but I need to make compromises.

I have drawn out the modifications to the initial plan that you guys recommended. It's now called Plan 1 :) I think this plan is quite workable. However, I don't think DH can be sold on this as there is no island. He doesn't like the idea of spending all this money to reno and then end up with less storage and a smaller feeling kitchen than what we have. And I understand where he's coming from.
I thought Scrappy25's idea of a cabinet run coming out of the existing pantry area was the perfect solution! I was giddy for about a day until I determined that it doesn't seem workable :( The way the stairs enter this room means I just can't block anything off there without it looking like an afterthought in the room design.
{{gwi:2140721}}

The cardboard represents the back of what would be the new cabinet section. (I actually think it really works visually the way it frames the kitchen, if it weren't for the stairs issue)
{{gwi:2140722}}

So, I tried to come up with some other options. Lavendar_lass had given me the idea of doing an "L" shape with an island, so I played around with that for a long time and came up with Plan 2.

And based on the comments and ideas that Jillius made, I drew up another option called Plan 3. I couldn't bare to close off the area by the kitchen window as we have so little light as it is, so I tried to work the idea from Jillius, but with changes.

So, here they are:
PLAN 1: No island. Where to put speed oven? No landing spot by pantry. Still can't see what I can put by support beam that won't be weird. DH wants a small island with the speed oven below the counter. Any way to make it not weird?
{{gwi:2140723}}

PLAN 2: No landing spot by pantry. No new charming and delightful window seat *buries head in hands and sobs* Do I have enough drawer space? How are these clearances?
{{gwi:2140724}}

PLAN 3: Let me just say that I like quirky. I like unusual. But of course I don't want to cross the line from quirky to dysfunctional. Where does this plan land on that spectrum?
Drawing shows two chairs and a sofa, but that's realistically not going to fit. Only a chair either side of the fire, which I think I'm okay with. We have a living room with seating for 5-6. Also, I think the plan seems disjointed. But, I guess that's what happens when you try to put a galley kitchen in a U shape.
{{gwi:2140725}}

Which plan do you like the best?

Where do I go from here? (Besides to the liquor cabinet)

You've gotten so much feedback from folks more clever than I, so I just feel a need to mention that in all your plans, your DW placement would make me crazy. It is never near any kind of storage area. It is so much quicker and easier to unload and put away when you can stand at the DW and reach most of the storage without walking all over the kitchen. Sure you may need to do that for a few things but, in your plans, it looks like you'll have to do that for everything.

Sorry I'm better at spotting potential problems than I am with finding solutions.

In looking at your plans for the entire home, I gasped when I saw that the main bath is bigger than your kitchen. What the heck?

funkycamper - thank you for your observation!

In my current kitchen, my DW is right next to my dishes/ cutlery and I love that! But then I get confused because I read that I'm not supposed to put the DW in the prime prep area. In plan 1, I thought I could put a hutch style cabinet to the left of the fridge and keep all the everyday dishes/glasses/cutlery there. It would be about 3.5' from the DW when it's open. Not ideal, but workable?

Or I can do what I was going to do originally and put the DW between sink and range even though that's not advised due to it being my prime prep space.

Oh, I also meant to say your comment about the gigantic main bath made me laugh out loud. I've got the biggest (and pinkest) corner jacuzzi soaker tub this side of the Rockies, with wall mirrors on three sides.

I'm assuming the original owners were swingers.

Before you spend too much time vetting these and more plans, I would get a contractor out and see what is possible with raising the ceiling, with skylights, with adding a window to the wall of doom, and with re configuring your dining room doorway at all. Possibly also what would be involved with removing the post. The actual structural and architectural realities of your space are going to decide this for you.

If you do not intend to have a table between the chairs in front of your fireplace and instead will eat in the dining room more regularly, you may want the to widen the doorway to the dining room so the rooms feel a bit more connected. It will no longer be a solely formal eating room, and with informal dining tends to come a desire for people to easily see and speak to each other between the kitchen and table and for the walk between the two to seem short and direct. You may not want to make eating in the dining room more regularly your final plan if a better connection between the rooms isn't possible.

Widening the dining room doorway, adding skylights, or adding the wall of doom window, and/or raising the ceiling will all make your space feel lighter and be brighter, so if any or all of those are possible, you may not feel the same way about keeping that one window out in the open vs. having
its light filter through a glass pantry door. You may feel then that you have plenty of light and would prefer to have a big pantry and a more typically rectangular kitchen.

(Also, remember that your kitchen would be moved closer to all the light coming in through the garden door and window wall. Does the room feel dark now when you are sitting at the kitchen table? I suspect it feels nice and bright there and that it's more the current kitchen area that feels dark. Which is not to say that more light wouldn't be a great addition. No one has ever complained about a kitchen because it has too much natural light.)

Go get the facts about what you can and can't do before you spend more time going down the rabbit hole of speculation. It is good to have some strong ideas about how the space might work before you speak to a contractor (so that the talk is productive), but I think you have that now.

In conclusion, I feel you about husband and islands. Mine doesn't cook at all, hates cooking with the fire of a thousand suns, etc., and still when we remodeled our entire condo, he only cared about two things, design-wise: 1) having the hardwood floor be red, and 2) having an island.

It was SO odd. The island really didn't make sense in our space. It made our front entry and living have awkward dead space, the view you'd have while working at the island was the least attractive part of our entire condo - down a narrow, low-ceilinged hallway with no windows - and we'd have to knock out the pantry to have the island. And more importantly, he was never ever ever going to use it, so why on earth did he care? I had been surprised in the first place that he even knew what an island was.

This is a man who learned how to turn the oven on at age 23 and is still scared of it, whom I have had to teach how to use a peeler TWICE, and whose current ability to independently make box mac 'n cheese with ground meat and frozen peas required several years of work on my part. Years! I showed him how to brown meat for the first time over five years ago!

(He makes up for this by having an accent and frequently sending me cute pictures of our cat asleep on him.)

I finally got it out of him that his entire reasoning behind wanting the island is he thought they "looked cool". Even as he said it, he knew he'd lost that argument. But we had already been around and around about the island for MONTHS at that point.

Instead, we installed a wide arched doorway and pantry where the island would have gone. What we did provides nice architectural interest and helps define the kitchen while still keeping the space open, and what we did seamlessly encases a structural beam that was just going to be hanging out there randomly on the end of the island, and what we did gives me a place and space in the living room to put an 8' x 3' table behind the couch, which fixes the awkward longness of the living room and large, awkward emptiness of the foyer, and it means I went from being able to sit only four for dinner in the existing small dining room area to being able to sit 8-12 between the living room and foyer without moving any living room furniture. So now we get to use the former dining area as a flex space that I'm using for yoga. And I love having a big table for projects (I like crafts and making Halloween costumes and stuff). And that big table is handier to the kitchen work spaces than the dining room was, so I can use the big table as eight feet of overflow counter space if I need to set out big cooling racks or similar. (The island, at most, would have been just under five feet long.)

There were just SO many benefits to not forcing an island in our case.

You stick to your guns about what work best in your space. The amenities of an island (counter space, storage space, and a workspace with no cabinets in your face) can all be had in other ways. Not that I don't think the big island I suggested would work well, but it came from a desire to find a way for you to have more counter space and generally a larger kitchen that better suits the size of your home and the investment you will be making and because the big island kept the space in front of your garden door wide open.

Islands should be installed for their benefits to the space you have, not for themselves.

This post was edited by Jillius on Sun, Dec 28, 14 at 19:21

"Oh, I also meant to say your comment about the gigantic main bath made me laugh out loud. I've got the biggest (and pinkest) corner jacuzzi soaker tub this side of the Rockies, with wall mirrors on three sides.
I'm assuming the original owners were swingers."

I would love to see that bathroom! I was actually going to say that it looks like the original owner had a bathroom fetish of some kind, lol. Swingers? Yeah, that, too. Too funny.

----------------

I do think that your original DW placement would work best in that particular plan if, and only if, you have a separate prep sink.

To be honest, I know how much you love that big Kohler sink but I'm beginning to think it's hampering your ability to plan your kitchen well for function. Unless you're willing to give up that much counter real estate for having both the Kohler and a prep sink. Personally, I think that would be sink over-kill but if you love it that much, it might work for you.

Jillius, love your last post. Applause!! I think you've nailed it.

How would it affect your traffic and dining room furniture if you moved the DR entry to the drop ceiling part of the kitchen/keeping room?

{{gwi:2140726}}

You can then have a landing spot for the pantry over the speed oven, and shelves there and a cab next to the DW for some of your dishes/glasses. Sorry no island.

{{gwi:2140727}}

{{gwi:2140728}}

For some reason, your kitchen situation has been haunting me for a couple of days ;o), so I spent a little time drawing it in my old 3D Home Architect program, which unfortunately I can't pass along to you in any form. I printed off several of your plans & those suggested by others, looked back & forth between them & your pictures, and looked at your original list on your first post, and tried to reread most of your posts, although not most other peoples.

Based on all of this, in the FWIW department, here are some thoughts.

Plan 2 had too much empty wall/window space, so it would be my last choice of the 3. On Plan 3, I don't think it would matter too much if the counter overhang edged past the line of the low ceiling a foot, although if you could see this from the living or dining rooms, it might not look right. I would put the fridge where the oven stack is but a little to the right so there is space for a dish cabinet to its left. Put the oven stack to the right of the cooktop in the far right corner by the door and move the cooktop further to the left. Then maybe put the 3 bar chairs on the right end of the island. Very nice kitchen now, but it dominates the area, and personally I'd hate to give up the table eating area.

So, I'd go with Plan 1, put the speed oven to the right of the fridge, not have any seating at the peninsula, and put 12"-15" deep base cabinets along the back side of the peninsula. Then, for the pantry & post, I think I'd divorce them visually from the kitchen (depending on what color you end up having the kitchen cabinets) and make them look like part of the hearth room--different cabinets, different colors, different countertop--but this might depend on what you choose for the kitchen.

At the very least, paint the pantry doors the color of the trim or wall if you don't make any other changes. If you do choose new cabinets, drywall to fill in the wall above & below the pantry so that the top of the new pantry cabinet would be in line with the dreaded ceiling over the kitchen (or maybe the top of the new kitchen cabinets, or maybe the top of the double doors in the hall--see what looks best), and the bottom of the new pantry cabinet would line up with the floor above the steps--or whatever looks good--I can't see it all from your pictures. Right now, that cabinet as is adds to the visual dissonance of the room IMO.

Have you discussed with your husband why he wants an island? When we have guests, the men seem to lean against island & peninsula counters and doorways near countertops, and the women are more likely to sit down. With 6 people being your usual maximum number, it doesn't seem like the huge dominating kitchen with the large island would be necessary for entertaining, but you may decide differently.

I tried several things with the post in my 3DHA program to integrate it and make it look better and to get your DH an island, albeit a small one. The best choice seems to be to have a 3' x 3' sort of island, or pub table as Marcolo suggested, which has its left side parallel to and matching up with the end of the right pantry wall--about 3'(?) with the post in the lower left corner of the square island. The island would be 36" high with, I think, a short wall ~36" high going out from each side of the post, forming a 90 degree angle and 2 of the sides of the island. Although it would be difficult to do this with the cooktop island there now, try to mock this up in different sizes & configurations.

The short wall on 2 sides seemed to ground the post, whereas keeping the sides open like a table didn't look all that good to me. These 2 sides would be painted wall or trim color, or something that would blend in with the floor, or could be made of paneling matching the new pantry cabinets. Putting the post in the middle of the pub table might make the post & table look better, but talking to someone across the table with a post in your face probably wouldn't work too well. I didn't look at that version in my 3DHA. Maybe someone with more decorating knowledge than I have could some up with something more definitive here. The other 2 sides would be open underneath with a table leg on the corner and a stool/chair on each of these 2 open sides. The back sides of the 2 short walls would be painted to blend with the color of the stools/chairs. I'm thinking that you wouldn't want to draw attention to this area from any side, since no matter how you deal with it, that post should be minimized.

So you'd have a place to set your groceries by the pantry on a weekly basis, your husband would have an island that could be used from all sides when entertaining (there are doorways, counters, & the peninsula near it to lean against and it's visually open to all sides, not an obstruction, & traffic flows around it naturally as you enter the room) or to sit at briefly for a quick snack, you'd still have both a nice seating area around the fireplace and the table by the French doors--with a window seat if you so decide.

Ideally, you'd be able to remove the post and put in a beam, but that's an expensive fix and may create other issues. And you'd still need an island there, or somewhere. ;o)

Anne

I've been distracted by New Year's stuff, so I apologize for the delay in replying.

Jillius - I totally hear you about not trying to cram an island into a layout where it doesn't work. I think it's the constant messaging from TV, magazines and kitchen showroom that you HAVE to have an island. There aren't many "U" shape kitchens being paraded around.

It's also just appealing to have this big work surface to spread out on. But, I totally hear what you're saying. Since we have an island now (however ugly people might think it is) it's a very hard sell for DH to lose that.
I am definitely going to explore the skylight / drop ceiling issue. I am guessing that's it's going to be out of range budget-wise, but I will certainly explore it. Thank you very much for your insights.

sena01 - Thank you so much for the drawing. Moving the dining room doorway would solve some issues for sure. However, I don't think the flow from the front of the house would work very well. And we'd have to walk around the dining room furniture (it's not a big room) to get into the kitchen. Unfortunately that won't work for this house.

This room has a lot of quirks and challenges. I'm finding this whole process very frustrating and not at all the "fun" that people say designing a new kitchen is supposed to be. I'm thinking that I just need to embrace the "u" shape and accept that it can't be a whole lot more than what it already is.

jimandanne_mi

You are so kind to put thought into my floorplan issues! I can't thank you enough for your very helpful post.
I have gone over your points multiple times and have drawn out the island that you have described. I really see where you are coming from about making two sides of it "short walls" instead of cabinet doors etc. I can totally see how this would ground it and relate it to the post and make it look a little less like something lost at sea.

To answer your question about why DH wants an island - it's basically because we have one now, so his rationale is that if we're still going to have basically the same "U" shape kitchen, why would we lose the island? Why be worse off than before? He likes the extra surface area for setting up appies and drinks and he also likes the extra storage it provides. He just can't wrap his head around why we would get rid of it. He is sooooooo far to the "function" end of the form vs function spectrum. He doesn't care that it looks weird right now!

I'm so grateful for you giving me some ideas to work within this odd and restricting shaped room. I'm also really grateful to hear your opinion of the other 2 plans that I posted. I REALLY like how you modified Plan 3. I think that's a way better layout. Thank you . I'm going to discuss with DH.

Even though I'm frustrated and kinda bummed that I can't figure out a better plan for the kitchen, I do hope you guys won't give up on me! I need to figure this out.

Thank you so much.

How wide is that post, actually? It looks like it's 8-10", or is that because of the camera's closeness? Do you know what's inside of it? In my previous place I had an iron support pole about 4" in diameter and about 4' from the entrance to the lower level from the stairs, sort of in your face much as this one is for you. I took 3/4" rough sawn cedar (matched a section of paneling) and managed to construct a square enclosure that I'm sure was not larger than 6" when I got done, and lasted through 2 kids and almost 30 years without ever having to repair it in any way. I made sure to bring the curved raised floor for that end of the LL out far enough to include the post so it was integrated and not standing like the Lone Ranger. Then I positioned a love seat next to it so that it looked like the post was sort of defining the space.

I had drawn, and forgot to mention that you could have, a cabinet ~18" deep and opening toward the pantry, with the post centered on one end, and possibly a second post centered on the other end, possibly with glass shelves up higher. Then you could put one or two chairs on the back side of it and still have your nice sitting area. However, if the post is as big as it looks, this may not be a good solution.

Or you could take my earlier suggest for a 3' x 3' 2 short walls with table, and just make it a 3 x 3' island with cabinets--a 24" deep one opposite and parallel to the pantry and a 12" deep one facing the sitting area, or vice versa, or two of 18" each, still with the one post in the corner. The cabinets would obviously have to fit between the posts. But it depends on how big the post is, and what the measurement is from each side of the post to an end that would line up with the end of the pantry wall. A good finish carpenter might be able to give you some ideas on how to incorporate that pole with cabinets and make it reasonably attractive. I think what you do with it does need to be paired with the way the pantry looks, so they look like they belong together in some way. (If you still want a couple of chairs, put them back at the end of the peninsula.)

It seems to me that the important thing is to get rid of that jarring existing island corner as you enter from the stairs, and to rid yourself of the blocked path/view as you come in from the dining room. I think a different island in roughly the same place would work, but it needs to be parallel to the other vertical surfaces, not the stairs. And since I can't look at my 3D views from your stairs, or see your wall that is so bothersome, it's hard to know if it's better to match whatever you put here with the kitchen or the sitting area.

I can really relate to your husband wanting function and useful space. Each time I tell my husband that we've done our last project in our 7 year old house that we built, I find another way to use some "empty" space--I just found another place where it would make sense to build two 4' closets in the Bonus Room--he's not happy with me ;o).

If you do some form of plan 3, I'd keep all of the cabinets on the left wall 30" deep, make the pantry 30" deep, and line up the left end of the island with the edge of the pantry wall. Also, I'd nix the cabinets facing each other in the doorway to the DR.

Since some of things in your drawings need to be accurate to the inch (opening an oven near the door--can this be done without hitting someone coming through that door, for example, or how close to the door or window trim something will be), it would probably help if you could find an online program that lets you accurately put in the sizes of everything, including your furniture, and also lets you look at it in 3D.

Anne

Anne,
Thank you again for such great feedback. I hear what you are saying about the ways to make the island less jarring. I appreciate that input.

The support post is 9.25" square. It's made from a solid piece of cedar, and then drywalled. I had the idea to remove the drywall and get a kind of rustic/funky look from it, but DH said the post would be in very rough shape as it wouldn't be nicely finished and would have screw holes all over it from the drywall.

I agree with you about the 3D software. It's something I've been trying to figure out for ages. I've been learning SketchUp, but it's so time consuming. I'm going to keep trying though.

I've currently got an island mocked up based on what we've discussed. I'll try to post some drawings later, but this idea is never going to look good in 2D drawings! It's just making the most of a bad situation and I know it's hard for people to get on board with a plan like that and give advice.

I will also post the Plan 3 based on the changes you suggested. I would at least love to narrow down if I should go with Plan 3 or Plan 1 with an odd island!

Thank you again.

IKEA and Lowe's have very basic software on their websites that work pretty well for amateur experimentation - and the 3D visualization is pretty cool. I've been playing around with it for years, now. You might want to check it out as a free and easy option. They use the same program but with their different cabinet lines, etc.

That may be good news that the post is solid cedar, because getting rid of the drywall around it lets you really integrate the wood post with an island of some sort! Screw holes can be filled and stained. Rough areas can be sanded, maybe roughed up again (not sure about this--depends on what can be done with the right tools, and what requires a machine), or covered with 1/4" wood laminate that matches whatever cabinets you get. A good finish carpenter . . . should be able to integrate and finish the post to seem more a part of an island.

But first, walk around the post and look at it from every conceivable viewing place, as well as at what is BEHIND the post from each position--other rooms, halls, chairs, probable kitchen counter work places from both plans, doors, windows, etc., and ask yourself if you think it would look better as a drywall post, or better stained the cabinet color. You and your husband are the only ones who are able to see how the post goes into the ceiling and floor, how it looks with the offending wall, and how it relates to everything around it. If it's not a clear cut decision, keep looking at it over several days (weeks?), and hopefully after thought and discussion, you'll both arrive at the same conclusion.

BTW, I was looking for something else, and thought of you when I scrolled past these:

http://www.grandinroad.com/italian-courtyard-outdoor-canvas-art/wall-art/shop-all-wall-art/505386

http://www.grandinroad.com/poppy-flower-metal-art/wall-art/shop-all-wall-art/490334?isRecentlyViewed=true

The 3 dimensionality of something like them for your obtrusive wall is something you might consider. They have several other "outdoor canvas art" photos, all of which may be too small, and they may not fit your style. But the tromp l'oeil nature of them to draw your view INTO your in-your-face wall seems like it might be more appealing than just a flat-looking surface. Don't know if maybe 3 similar to this (they have several different ones) would work on that wall or not. In the past, I've seen some really neat trompe l'oeil wall murals for large walls, but a quick search didn't turn up any good enough to link. Too bad so many of them have arches & pillars.

Three of the metal wall art poppies might be large enough, or something similar that gives a little depth to that wall.

Just some more ideas to throw into the pot :o).

Anne

Steph2000 -
Thanks for mentioning the IKEA software. I did try it out last year but I couldn't figure out if it's possible to make an island? It seemed you had to use some premade island which would be the wrong size. Did I miss something? I'd love to be able to see the plans in 3D! Do you know if I make a custom size island in there?

jimandanne_mi - Thanks again Anne for your thoughtful suggestions! I totally see where you're going with the poppy idea for the huge wall of doom. Those are actually pretty cool and I could see something like that working.

I drew out the new small island. As discussed, it would be 3x3 and have the support post in the lower left. The top line lines up with the top line of the pantry:
{{gwi:2140729}}

When I was looking at this, I thought maybe it would look more connected to the kitchen if I line up the right side of the island with the right side of the peninsula:
{{gwi:2140730}}
I thought if I made the back of the island be 9" deep bookshelves, it would tie in with the bookshelf built-ins on either side of the fireplace. (That's what the little lines represent). But with this plan, I couldn't encase the post in the island AND keep the chair.

One final thought that stemmed from this was to changed the seating and make the island bigger yet. It doesn't line up with anything on the right side anymore, but it would make room for an overhang for stools. The right side of the fireplace would be the built-in bar area.
{{gwi:2140731}}

I know none of these look like "normal" kitchens and in 2D look odd. I don't see any other way to keep a U shape and not make the kitchen smaller than what we already have.

If skylights turn out to be too expensive or not possible with your ceiling structure, look into sun tunnels.

If the sole objection to the layout I suggested earlier (the one with the big pantry that squared off the room and the big island) was blocking some of the natural light from the current kitchen window, perhaps sun tunnels dotted among can lights in the ceiling would be the answer.

Then you could use that layout. Your kitchen would no longer be a weird shape, it would be bigger than it currently is, and your husband would get his island.

If the main reason your H wants an island is for the landing space, not prep space or seating, have you consider buying, or building something that looks more like furniture?

The placement of the island seems to be closer to the sitting area than the kitchen, so I think something that didn't look so kitchen-y might be less visually jarring. You may be on the right track with the island with built-in bookshelves. Try looking for ideas where furniture pieces are used to define spaces. An appropriately sized chest of drawers, or buffet abutted up to the post may serve the purpose.

Since your H likes the current island for serving appetizers and drinks, have you considered buying/building an actual bar next to the post? You could have one with storage underneath and the proximity to the pantry could make it convenient to unload groceries that go there. You could choose something that coordinated with sitting room, so it wouldn't look like a leftover that didn't fit in the kitchen.

Your current island reminds me of pic's I've seen of outdoor kitchens. Do you have outdoor entertaining space? If so, maybe you could use it there and your H would feel less 'deprived'. :)

This is a fascinating thread and I've been following it to see what you come up with. One thing about putting a small island by the post is that it really blocks traffic flow into the sitting area. My guess would be everyone will end up walking around the left side of the island thru the kitchen. You said you liked Scrappy25's layout with a peninsula between the pantry and the post. I thought it was a good solution, too. It better defines the kitchen area, blocks traffic into the kitchen, and doesn't make the walkway into the sitting area much smaller than it is right now.

The problem is the steps. So how about moving them? There are only a couple of them, so this would seem to be a relatively minor construction project. I've sketched in a couple of possible configurations below. In the first (black lines) the steps face directly toward the fireplace. In the second (red lines) you would have a couple of winder stairs that start facing the fireplace but end angling into the sitting area. I think winders are allowed by code as long as you have less than 3 (which you do) and make the treads wide enough. I like the winders better because you won't feel blocked by the fireplace when entering the room. You'd probably need to make the alcove beside the fireplace a little shallower to open up the stairs a bit and you couldn't have a chair on that side, but otherwise it seems like it could work. Good luck!

One more quick thing: since the hallway level is higher than the kitchen, making the passthru counter height in the kitchen would make it oddly short on the hallway side. But you could make it two levels with the display cabinet on the hallway side being taller than the cabinets on the kitchen side. From the kitchen side, the back of the display cabinet would just look like a backsplash for the cabinets.

Compromise is good! :)

I like the island plan, with a few variations....and have you considered two dish drawers, rather than a dishwasher?

Also...what about glass uppers above the dishwasher/dish drawers? That would bounce the light around and look good with the 'keeping room' space. {{gwi:2140732}}From Kitchen plans

This post was edited by lavender_lass on Tue, Jan 6, 15 at 14:05

I like the island plan by Lavender. With the post behind the two chairs, the post seems more anchored. I also like the idea of a piece of furniture near the post. A bar height table like Lucy suggested near the post might work too.
I've also wondered about changing your entrance to the room with bookshelf cab described earlier. Perhaps you could still do a cabinet (bar height like Atmoscat suggested and add a bar attached to the post). (As shown on the small inset)
Or you could enclose that area with a wall and use it as a large walk in pantry. Anchor a bar height table to the post and wall.

duplicate

This post was edited by AineLane on Tue, Jan 6, 15 at 16:00

I'm so grateful for all your continued help!

First, let me say that I may not have been clear as to why DH wants an island. It's not because he has some weird obsession about islands. It's because we already have an island. Losing it therefore makes us worse off functionally. I know our current space is viewed as being dysfunctional and ugly, but it's actually really great for us. It's the biggest / nicest kitchen we've ever had, including any kitchen either of us grew up in. I'm starting from a place of actually liking what I have. I would even say that I LOVED what I have before I started reading GW!
If I can't find a plan that works, DH is perfectly happy to just leave the footprint as is and get new cabs, counters and appliances. So, I need to either have the new kitchen be equal to what we have or bigger since I want to address some of the issues I have learned about from GW.

Jillius - Thank you for following up with me, I appreciate it. To answer your question: the objection to the layout suggestion you made is yes, in big part due to losing the garden window. It's also because we would be losing the window and getting a massive pantry, which we totally don't need. So, it doesn't feel like a good trade. I sketched out your idea on graph paper to see the measurements and it would be a 10.5' x 4' pantry. I can't imagine what I would do with that! We have a 33" wide pantry that is perfectly fine for us now. I've just included the rough sketch:
{{gwi:2140733}}
What on earth would I do with this 42sq ft pantry? I've racked my brain for a use, but I'm open to ideas.

llucy - I agree with you that something that looks more like furniture would be a better choice. I try to picture how I could fit in an actual piece of furniture, but I can't come up with where to face the back of the piece. Wouldn't it look odd to have a back of a buffet, for example, showing?

atmoscat - Thanks for your drawing! I hadn't considered moving the stairs. But I see where you're coming from with that. I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be open to closing off the upper part of the new cabinet section, because I like the openness to the bedroom hallway. Here are pics to show what I mean:
{{gwi:2140734}}
{{gwi:2140735}}
I feel that I would be losing something nice to have that section blocked off. Even with glass shelves, I think I'd still prefer it open.
(I also may not entirely understand what the display cabinets means). But, I could keep the upper part open. I guess I have two hesitations with that. One is that since I couldn't have a chair on either side of the fireplace, I'm not sure how much I'm gaining? And two: this would require patching in new hardwood up in the hall level, which means then we have to get that whole level of hardwood refinished, which I was hoping to avoid having to do for another 5 years. But, I'm going to think on this and try to mock something up. Thank you so much for contributing to help me with this dilemma!

Lavender_lass - Thank you! I'm really happy to hear that you liked Plan 2! I would love to hear your reasoning for making the appliance rearrangements. Can you explain it to me?
And, I don't know anything about dishwasher drawers. What is the advantage of that over a regular DW?

Karenseb, Thank you for the drawings and ideas! I would be pretty reluctant to close off a wall there as I mentioned above. But, I like the 2nd idea of modifying the stairs and having a bookcase running to the post. I wouldn't want a 2nd table there, if I'm keeping the kitchen table. I couldn't tell if your idea was to have that "post table" be the main eating area?

Thank you everyone for not giving up on me! I wish this room was more normal and easier to plan, but I'm so lucky to have the help you guys are offering. Thank you.

I was thinking of the post table as a bar height island. Maybe I should have drawn it smaller. I was trying to incorporate an island of sorts. I can see why you would rather leave that space open as it seems to open up the space more.
That is a nice view ino the kitchen from the hall. If you decided to do a cabinet there, maybe counter height would be better, same for an island. just my persona preference.

This post was edited by Karenseb on Tue, Jan 6, 15 at 23:33

Okay...since you asked :)

In your original plan, there is a walkway between the range and sink. This is never a good idea and not necessary in your space. And having the dishwasher and sink in the island is crowding your eating space. Finally, the speed oven has no prep/landing space...unless it's under counter. {{gwi:2140736}}From Kitchen plans

Dish drawers have mixed reviews, but they can be handy, especially if you don't do a lot of dishes at any one time. Then the top one is used most often, with the bottom one available when needed. This might be easier to use with the placement of the dishwasher.

You could also get rid of that little return and just put the dishwasher next to the sink (as I had posted earlier) but you lose those upper cabinets. Do you want upper cabinets in that space? They're handy for dish storage.

This is why I moved the sink to under the window and added a prep sink on the island...giving you a range that is not under window (did you check code in your area?) And the prep sink gives you more prep space and eating area on the island. {{gwi:2140732}}From Kitchen plans

Wouldn't it make more sense to have the counter where dishwasher is not turn the corner? You don't gain anything by having it turn the corner except then the dishwasher opens into the person standing at the sink, which is not desirable.

Instead, having that counter go straight into the wall without turning means the dishwasher would face the keeping room and open next to the person at the sink, rather than into them.

Jill- I just addressed that above...second paragraph from the bottom :)

"You could also get rid of that little return and just put the dishwasher next to the sink (as I had posted earlier) but you lose those upper cabinets. Do you want upper cabinets in that space? They're handy for dish storage."

Lavender_lass - Thank you very much for the detailed explanation of why you moved things around as you did.

Yes, I do want upper cabinets there because with this plan, I'm actually going to be quite short on storage space compared to what I have now. So, I wouldn't want to lose the return and therefore the uppers. I love your idea of the glass-sided uppers for that spot, I think that's perfect!

Since this plan (Plan 2) makes for a smaller kitchen, I feel that I couldn't possibly lose that return. Which makes me want to put the sink & DW back on the island. I guess I don't view the back side of the island as much of a walkway, but maybe I'm misunderstanding what that really means. And I'm getting hung up on wanting the DW right next to the sink, because I have visions of being stressed about water dripping on to the hardwood floors. I'm not the kind of person who can NOT stress about these things :)

There is no code issue with a range in front of the garden window - I checked.

Anyone have any ideas as to where the speed oven can go? (I'm getting a speed oven instead of plain micro as I feel it's more versatile)

I'm going to spend some time thinking over this plan and figuring out where I would put everything. In a 2D drawing, it sure looks pretty and neat with everything fitting under the drop ceiling and the furniture fitting nicely around the fire! Now it's time to see if I can make this work in real life and if it will pass DH's "Is it the same size or larger than what we have" test.

AineLane, I completely agree with what you said about keeping the sight lines open from the kitchen into the hallway. To clarify, I wasn't suggesting blocking that off with a wall or display cabinet. My thought was basically the same as what scrappy25 suggested and you mocked up in your post on 12/28 at 0:30 - a counter-height section of cabinets that would be open above into the hallway. Functionally, it would replace the island you have now (to make your husband happy ;).

My second comment was just about how this would look from the hallway side. Because the floor in the hallway is higher than in the kitchen and would run right up to the cabinets, even though they're normal cabinet height in the kitchen they would be really low - more like bench height - on the hallway side. So, my suggestion was to build a display shelf (or just a half wall) that would be cabinet height on the hallway side (hence not blocking the view from the hall into the kitchen). It would be taller than cabinet height on the kitchen side, so it would act like a backsplash behind the cabinets, but you'd still be able to see over it into the hall. Does that make sense?

Yes, you'd need to patch in to the existing floor. People often say matching is not that hard, but I don't know if it would require refinishing the whole floor or just the new section. Maybe other people can advise on that? As far as losing the chair, maybe you could fit a small sofa or loveseat in the window and also have a chair facing the fireplace.

I just thought you should explore scrappy25's idea a little more because I think it could work. But the island plan is good, too (I like the little bookcase next to the post). It's nice to have alternatives!

Hello atmoscat -
Thanks for explaining that. I can see what you mean now. I can totally see how this "cleans up" the island situation by attaching it to the pantry wall. It's basically giving me a much needed 3rd wall in my kitchen, without blocking any feeling of openness. I agree that this is worth exploring.

I have a GC coming next week and I will talk to him about how involved it might be to rework the stairs. As for the hardwood, yes, it would require re-finishing the whole level. I already spoke to a hardwood specialist about that for the kitchen level where I want to keep the existing floors. So, that's not insignificant. But, once I know all the options, I can start to make sacrifices in the right places.

Thank you again - you are so kind to keep at it with me on this difficult layout!

AineLane,

When I saw the photo of your current kitchen, I thought: "Sumbody really wanted an island. And since it didn't fit inside the kitchen, they put it outside the kitchen." It looked weird to me, but maybe it doesn't look weird at all actually inside the house?

The plans you drew a few days ago were keeping the same U shaped kit/ dining nook footprint and adding another island outside the kitchen attached to the post. Which is why I thought a storage bar/ buffet type arrangement might give the same function without the "kitchen island stuck outside the kitchen" affect.

I like Lavender's plans for a more open kitchen that includes an island with seating. The island is part of that kind of kitchen, not separate from it.

I also like your current dining nook between windows and french doors. That's a sweet spot - to me - and I would be reluctant to give it up for open island seating in the middle of the room that may not be as comfortable.

Tough choice I imagine.

Hi llucy -
Well, you've explained exactly what the problem is with this room! I currently have a U kitchen with an island that seems oddly placed. But, I will say that in real life, it looks less odd. Honestly. No one has ever said anything about it and our friends and family love our kitchen and I NEVER thought it looked weird until I came to GW. (I never liked the irregular shape and two levels, but the placement never bothered me).
I know it's soooo different than what the norm is these days. But, I'm trying to balance making the new kitchen look nice and normal, but not lose the space or functionality that we currently have. I go back and forth as to which is more important. I don't know how to make that decision. I'm honestly stuck.

As for the breakfast nook - you are right again! It's a very tough call. It's a nice spot where I can see the forest and wildlife and in the summer hear my little fountain outside and at the holidays or when we have house guests I expand the table and we all eat breakfast together with the lovely view. I think with a window seat there it would be even more charming! But, do I keep that if it means having a U kitchen with an odd island? Or do I go "updated" and sit at an island? Oh, how I wish I knew what to do....

Your idea of a buffet / bar type set up sounds so much like the answer. I could still have storage / surface there, without it looking like a lost island. But, I can't seem to visualize how to make it look like furniture, or how an actual piece of furniture could be made to work.

So, I have to decide between:
-Weird and greatly despised on GW, but lots of storage and surface space
OR
-Normal, modern but no kitchen table and much less storage space.

(I'm still investigating the 3rd option of moving the stairs)

Writing that out helped me to see why I'm stuck :)

Aine,

On your first post to this thread under renovation goals you wrote:
"- Eating area for 2 people. 4 would be better.
- Eating area must be at a table or at table height and where we face each other, not shoulder to shoulder
-A place for a few bars stools for perching while the other person is cooking. Also for casual hanging out with cocktails. No one will eat meals at a counter."

Your plan #1 achieves these goals. And perhaps not so coincidentally, follows the footprint you have now. :)

I live in a home with a smallish open concept main floor. It's not uncomfortable, but I find myself drawn to layouts like yours that are open, but have clearly defined spaces for cooking, eating, and relaxing. The U shaped kitchen with adjacent dining nook may not be "in" at the moment, but I think it may function better than the wide open kitchen look that is currently popular. The non-U shaped plans that you and others have come up with, may give a bit more storage and counter space, but at the sacrifice of comfortable and charming dining space (love the window seat idea!). Is it really worth it?

Are you planning on keeping or changing the doors to the pantry? The idea in my head is to have something in that space that coordinates with those doors and the bookcases in the sitting area. It would have a top different from the kitchen countertops - that's what would make it look more like a piece of furniture built for the sitting area, rather than a piece that "didn't fit" in the kitchen. A bridge of sorts for the two spaces.

I don't know how to post pictures or make alterations on GW plans to show you what I mean about using a bar/buffet as a storage room divider. I'll look today on the internet, maybe I can post links.

Some renderings.

1) Something like 3rd island (42" high) in yours of Jan 5, 15 at 0:37.

{{gwi:2140737}}

{{gwi:2140738}}

{{gwi:2140739}}

2) Bar table next to beam.

{{gwi:2140740}}

{{gwi:2140741}}

3) Tried to add something looking like a furniture next to beam.

{{gwi:2140742}}

{{gwi:2140743}}

{{gwi:2140744}}

4) This is a costly one, windows change places + a built in fridge or counter depth one would be good. I think you can fit 2x 21" wide cabs+crange and fridge in the present nook. Island doesn't line up with anything in the kitchen, probably lines up with beam, but I didn't really check. Undercounter oven next to a tall cab for glass+plate storage at DR wall.

{{gwi:2140745}}

{{gwi:2140746}}

{{gwi:2140747}}

{{gwi:2140748}}

I collected some photos on Houzz and created an idea book you can take a look at.

http://www.houzz.com/ideabooks/39483770/thumbs/post-room-divider

I've scrolled through the thread and have not seen anything like this suggested. It is very rough, but maybe it will give you some ideas. I have only addressed the kitchen in this plan - so I haven't drawn it, but you would keep the table by the french doors. Basically, this puts your fridge, range, cleanup sink and DW in the upper left in an L shape, then adds the island your husband wants in a way that still gives you workable aisles 42" on the left, 48" at the top.

Option 1A:
{{gwi:2140749}}

Option 1B:
{{gwi:2140750}}

llucy - Thank you for your kind support!! I felt so much better after reading your post.
You are right, having to sacrifice the nook and eat at an island is never something I wanted to do. It would feel like a sacrifice, but if I was getting something otherwise fabulous in return, I would at least consider it. If I could snap my fingers and have the perfect solution, it would be to still have a kitchen table and any island seating would just be 1 or 2 spots for perching, not for dining.
So, the U shape really does start to make sense.

Thank you for the link to the Houzz ideabook! That really helped me and actually got a few new ideas flowing in my mind. The pantry doors will be changed, so that section can be made to look very different.

sena01 - Thank you again for more options! It is so helpful to see things in 3d. The one with the bar table actually looked good - I just can't see needing the duplication of another table. But, it visually made the most sense probably. I'm going to play around with your idea of moving the dining nook! It's something else that I never considered and at first the new kitchen looked quite small, but then I saw the section against the dining room wall, so that might give me enough storage.
Thank you again!

tracie.erin - Thank you for drawing out this layout idea. It's actually fairly close to an idea proposed by a KD I met with. At the time, DH was not open to losing the U shape, so he kinda nixed it, but I'm going to explore this idea further. I like that I can still keep the kitchen table as the more I think about it, the more that seems important to me.

Thanks everyone for your continuing advice and ideas! I can't even tell you how much this is helping me. DH is very busy and doesn't want to be too heavily involved in the details, so it's so valuable to me to get to talk things out with all of you!
I'm having a GC over on Monday to discuss. I will report back once I have a better sense of my construction limitations.

I'm a little surprised your H nixed the idea of an L shaped kitchen with island. Really it IS a U shape, the trade-off being losing some counter and under counter storage to a walk way.

I live in a house my parent's built in 1991. It has this kitchen configuration. Because the 'Great Room' isn't that big, (oxymoron) an island makes the space look/feel a bit bigger than it would with a closed U.

In your space would you really miss the storage given over to a walk way? This layout seems like it could be a good compromise. Your H gets an island, you get to keep the dining area, you both get a kitchen that looks a bit different than what you had, but functions better.

Popping in to say that I like the design Option 1B that tracie.erin drew for you. It looks super functional, the island is "normal" and logical. The rest of the space looks very workable for furniture arrangements, too, leaving you room for a great conversational sitting area by the FP, and a table. Nice! : )

I like 1B also. The Dishwasher is next to the sink. You have an island that looks nice. You have your dining area.
Furniture placement may have more options. Perhaps the easy chair could be moved near the post with a walkway between the chair and the island.