Current Layout:

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Plan:
Kitchen Layout
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The entire floor:
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Thoughts on this layout??

Do you have a fully measured layout of the Kitchen space? Not just the couple that you have in the one you posted above - we need the widths of each wall/window/door/doorway as well as the distances between each wall/window/door/doorway (see the Layout Help FAQ linked below).

I strongly recommend you read several of the Kitchen FAQs - I've linked some below.

Meanwhile, I'll look at it and give suggestions - while you check out the FAQs!

Does it have a basement or crawl space? Or, is it on a slab?

FAQ: New To Kitchens? Read Me First! - Take the "Sweeby Test" that's linked in this FAQ!
FAQ: How do I ask for Layout Help and what information should I include?
FAQ: Kitchen work zones, what are they?
FAQ: Aisle widths, walkways, seating overhangs, work and landing space, and others
FAQ: How do I plan for storage? Types of Storage? What to Store Where?

Full set of Kitchens FAQs

"...Now for the fun part... remodeling EVERYTHING so my two show cats, my SO, and I can move in before my SO's lease is up in April!"

One thing - It's February - I doubt you will be able to design, order cabinets, and install the Kitchen and remodel the entire house by April - unless you are diehard DIYers and have a lot of help (like WeedyAcres - for those who remember her Thanksgiving remodel - and even she did not finish it completely until later.)

You may be able to make it livable so you can at least get an occupancy permit - I assume you're getting the required permits for any changes that require them (I hope you are!)

This post was edited by buehl on Tue, Feb 3, 15 at 16:59

If there was a "hall of shame" for kitchen layout, your current kitchen would be on it! There doesn't appear to be one thing about that kitchen that does work.

A few thoughts on your proposed layout (while we wait for dimensions): First, I'll tell you that I have a U-shaped kitchen with a vaulted ceiling, though mine has walls on all 3 sides (no peninsula).

Are you getting rid of the soffit? I would run the cabinets to the ceiling height on the window wall. You don't have a ton of room, and gain a lot that way. It also allows you to use the space above the fridge. Lots of people use that for vertical storage (cookie sheets, cake pans); I used pullouts, so I can easily access the whole space.

Lots of people will tell you its a huge no-no to have the DW adjacent to the sink, instead of next to it. But with only 5', you don't have much choice. Mine is adjacent, and it's fine. I recommend a 30" sink base, to maximize the space around the sink.

Are you thinking Lazy Susan in the corner between sink and range? I had that configuration, and I can tell you, it's not a lot of space. Most prep takes place between sink and stove. In our remodel, I increased that by a foot, and what a difference! I also closed off the corner, so I could have drawers on both sides.

If you could scootch the peninsula further into the dining room, you'd make your sink wall a lot more functional. You show seating at the peninsula, but do you really need it, when you have a table right there? It doesn't look like your countertop overhangs on the dining room side (though hard to tell for sure without dimensions). Be sure to put a cabinet facing the dining room in the corner between sink and DW, so you don't lose that space.

You show an angled upper corner cabinet. I had two of these in my old kitchen, and hated them with a passion. Now I have easy-reach corner uppers, which are much, much better. Some people put lazy susans in the corner, which helps; for what I wanted to keep there, the easy-reach made more sense.

Speaking of which - a really good exercise to do while you're in the planning stages is to inventory everything you want to put in the kitchen, and figure out where it goes. Point of use is important - potholders, cooking utensils, spices near the stove; pots and pans near the stove; dishes near the DW. Figure out where you'll keep small appliances - you don't have a lot of counter space (you probably don't want to keep a coffee maker or toaster on the peninsula). Don't let less-used items take up valuable real estate.

Speaking of dishes - with minimal upper cabinets near the DW, will you keep dishes in drawers? This is a good use of space - but make SURE your drawers can support the weight of heavy plates and bowls (and remember that the weight limit includes the weight of the drawer itself).

Good luck!

The first thing that jumps out at me is that nobody can be cooking while someone else is working at the sink. There's just not enough room for two bodies to safely maneuver there. And forget about the person at the sink using the DW while someone is cooking.

I have read here at GW, that studies show people are usually only at their sink about 15-20% of the time they spend in the kitchen. I don't recall the exact number. But that seems about right to me. With a DW, less time needs to be at sink. So the old sink in front of window really doesn't make sense anymore. So lose that idea.

Move your sink to the peninsula to the left of the DW. If you do have 5' between peninsula and range counters, you have plenty of room for two to work in the kitchen with this arrangement. Sink user can access DW without crowding cook. Just make the peninsula at least 30" deep to control for water splatter behind sink.

I'm sure talented folks like Buehl will come up with something better but that should get your started.

Answers to all of the questions….
1. Fully measured? Sure. But really since I’m gutting the whole thing the only measurements that really matter at the walls. Unfortunately the width of the window is one measurement I don’t actually have. Give me a few moments and I’ll post that and the info from the links you sent over.
2. Below the kitchen (and the entire room it is in) is the basement. This means that all plumbing and electrical, etc can be [more] easily moved around.
3. I took the Sweeby test. Do you need me to share my answers on here?
4. Oh I know I can’t remodel EVERYTHING by April. By April 1st my goal is the kitchen, one bedroom, and one bathroom in working order.
5. I’m not quite sure what all permits I would need or not need. No one has told me I can’t occupy the property so I don’t know why I need to apply for a permit to occupy the space.

1. Oh I know! It’s so bad! My dad wanted me to keep the current layout and just update each piece. No way.
2. I am fully planning on removing the soffet. The window wall has a ceiling height of 8’ and it reaches 10’ right about the peak. I definitely want the “above the cabinet” storage space mostly for décor. I have a kitchenette elsewhere in the house where I plan to store lesser-used items (Crock Pots, large mixers, etc.) so storage space for THAT kind of stuff isn’t a huge priority.
3. Thanks for the tip on the 30” sink base.
4. I was thinking Lazy Susan but my cabinet maker has assured me that almost everyone breaks them within a few years and thus they become a waste of space. Drawers on both sides sounds lovely, but then you lose that entire 2’x2’ corner of storage space. I was thinking drawers on the sink side and a cabinet on the stove side that is open to that corner (with lesser-used pots and pans in the deep corner).
5. I can’t really scotch the peninsula much further because I only have 11’ right now on the other side of it. I need space for a full table and chairs there.
6. Seating is not necessary there, but I have always had seating at my kitchen and I like it for quick, informal meals. Right now I have the cabinet facing the same way as the rest of the cabinets. Is that a big no-no? Yeah, I’ll have to reach over the counter to access it but I was thinking there I could store my “guest dishes” aka all those extra plates I only whip out when I have a lot of people over.
7. The angled corner cabinet is really just in the model because that’s all the program I was using has as an upper cabinet option for modeling. I agree with you here.
8. I don’t plan on keeping any dishes in drawers. I’ve always had to store my dishes in cabinets not really near the dishwasher so it doesn’t really bother me.

1. I’m fine with not putting the sink under the window, but I can’t put a cabinet overhead there so I don’t see any reason not to keep the sink there other than what you said ��" the stove is close. I don’t forsee that being a huge issue for me and my SO personally. His current kitchen is 5’ by 8’ total and we manage fine there now. When would you need to use the dishwasher at the same time as having the oven open?
2. Moving the sink to the peninsula (or adding a utility sink there) was a thought, however, the decision to nix that came down to simple usage plans ��" I plan on using the peninsula as a place to put food items to serve when entertaining like a buffet. A sink there would take up much of that valuable real estate.

That poor kitchen! :)

Do you think the fridge once was in the washer/dryer hole? Not that it matters...I just want to understand!

Where are you moving laundry?

As long as the place was occupant-ready when you bought it, you should be fine. I wasn't sure b/c, in your My Page blurb, you said it was a foreclosure and in a horrendous state of disrepair. Some of those houses are so bad that they have to have work done on them b/f they can be occupied. Of course, everything depends on your locale and its Codes.

Are you and your SO planning to have children? If so, will you be in this house and do you plan for them to grow up in the house? I'm asking b/c it's part of the information we need to know - is it a one-person kitchen - now and in the future? One person means only one person working in the kitchen 95% of the time or more - and that includes all kitchen work - prepping a meal, cooking, baking, cleaning up, etc.

Lazy Susan - I don't know what hardware your cabinetmaker uses, but any decent hardware will last many, many years. When we demolished our 13-year old kitchen, the only thing that worked as well the day it was new as the day it was demo'd was the lazy susan! We had absolutely no problems with it - and it was one of the lowest lines of cabinets you can get (Aristrokraft)! I had planned for another one (probably a Super Susan to gain a bit of shelf space) but we ended up with a Pet Cabinet (turned 90-degrees to face the area that we feed our pets). I really wanted that corner susan for small appliances!

Probably the best uses of a corner (super or lazy) susan is pot and pan storage or small appliance storage. In our old kitchen, we stored all our pots & pans, colanders, and miscellaneous large serving pieces in a lazy susan (the pole down the middle). It's actually very functional storage for both b/c by rotating the shelves, everything is right in front of you - no crawling around or moving things around to find/get to something. Honestly, I don't understand why people void/deaden out a corner when they don't have acres of cabinet space - a corner susan is so useful! (I think they get hung up on losing a few cubic inches of space and don't realize that the susan's high functionality outweighs the loss of a few inches and definitely outweighs the functionality of a blind corner cabinet. Oh well, to each his own.)

Permits: Most major work (electrical, structural, etc.) needs a permit in most towns/villages/cities - even in most rural areas. Maybe you don't in your area. They want to be sure all work is done to Code, so you may also need inspections along the way.

Some questions:

1. How long is the wall with the refrigerator?

How far is it b/w the window and the wall on the "bottom"?
How long is that right wall altogether - including the table space/DR?
How far off the floor is the window in the table space/DR?
Do you need two doors to the patio? Could you close up the one in the DR?
Would you be willing to consider banquette seating?
What are the dimensions of the Powder Room?

1. Goals - Ability to entertain out of my kitchen. Having the peninsula act as a buffet when I have large amounts of people over is important. It’s also important to be able to arrange furniture in the rest of the room (something that is not possible with the current layout). I want to be able to interact with people in the other areas of the room while I am in the kitchen.
2. Family composition ��" Me and my boyfriend Scott. We’re both in our 20s. That’s about it. In the next couple years we’ll probably get married and then sometime after that may start our family together.
3. When I cook it’s usually very simple meals (although I’m hoping to change that when I have a nice kitchen!)
4. I see it as a functional entertainment space for informal entertainment (think holiday parties with friends and family, etc).
5. Our dining room and living room and entryway are all this same room. Right now (because it’s just the two of us and we rarely cook) we will occasionally go over to his dining table to eat but oft than not we end up eating at the couch so we can hang out near the radio and open the patio doors to let in the fresh air.
6. The doorway I plan to eliminate. The window can move if needed but that seems like a bigger pain than is needed. The walls on either side of the washer/dryer WILL come down. The soffet too.
7. The sink can move but with the window there, I don’t see why we would.
8. Regular range/oven combo deal, decorative hood (microwave on counter or installed into base cabinet)
9. I’ll be buying all new appliances.

Fori, that’s my assumption but I have no idea! There are washer and dryer hookups half a floor down from this off the rec. room and again in the basement (three hookup options in one house!). I’ll probably be moving it to the room off the rec. room.

Buehl, I’ll have to look into that. It’s a mess. There are plumbing leaks, gas leaks, termites, carpenter ants, squirrels in the walls, a ruined boiler and water heater, no headers on exterior basement doors, and so many other issues I can’t even count.
I want to live in this house for minimum 7 years (I read somewhere when I was a teenager that that was the amount of time you should stay in a house before selling it) so I can expect to have kids under the age of 5 living in this house.
He’s more worried about the shape of the cabinet door since it would have to go into a corner and not be an angled opening. The cabinet doors with hinges always get closed wrong and end up broken or out of alignment.
More question answers:
1. The wall with the fridge is 11’ from corner to end of the current wall but I can make it up to 4’ shorter or 4’ longer as needed as I’m ripping out most of that to begin anyway.
2. I don’t have that measurement, unfortunately (and I don’t have the keys to go over there until next week!)
3. All together the wall with the window is 22’ long.
4. See answer to #2
5. I want to keep both doors, especially that one. That wall is very symmetrical and I want to keep it as such, plus, it brings in great light and allows access to the huge patio. Plus, the door on the left is probably not going to be the best accessible because it will be between furniture. If I want to carry food from my kitchen to outdoors, the dining room door would be best.
6. Powder room is 4’x8’. Not much space there.

Just wanted to answer the question of having DW and oven door open at the same time. Well, that's not really what I was referring to in my post but, yes, that is an issue, too.

We all do things differently but with your proposed sink/DW placement, there is no room for someone to be cleaning up at the sink and putting things in the DW while someone else is cooking. There's barely enough room for someone to be at sink and range at the same time even if the DW isn't being opened. I'm a clean-as-I-go cook so I like to be able to access DW and sink from my prep area so things can go right into either while prepping. So 1-cook or 2-cook, that placement just doesn't work, imho. Even if you're not opening up the oven door.

I just know that, for me, I would come to hate how the DW/sink/range are so close together and conflict with each other with such a passion I'd probably redo it in a year or two. Or stick a fork in my eye because of the frustration..

When you have kids, you will probably find yourself cooking more and you really should plan for that eventuality. And I can see where there might be two of you in the kitchen more often with kids. Example: You're stirring something on the stove. Baby needs feeding. DH needs to get things from the fridge and use the sink to prepare Baby's food. Baby is crying so he has Baby in one arm while doing this. While squeezing past you at the stove, Baby gets splattered with hot spaghetti sauce and gets burned. Or while DH is trying to use sink, because it's so close to stove, Baby gets splattered and burned.

You may think you are going to be able to avoid such scenarios and I hope you do but a crying baby can make us do things that aren't the best decisions.

If your sink was on the peninsula and you have enough clearance, like 54" or so, DH can get stuff from fridge, use sink, and you at the stove are away from him and Baby and the only person who might get splattered with something hot is you.

Not trying to scare you of potentials and we can't protect against every conceivable accident but if something is obviously a bad choice due to traffic clutter, it's best to be aware of it and change it now rather than later when it will be more expensive.

It seems to me that the peninsula with a sink in it would still be big enough for a buffet. You could have a cutting board the size of half the sink to regain that space for additional dishes, if needed. I also think a sink there would make it more handy for drink service. You could even have the sink filled with ice. Or a bin of ice laying in half the sink. Just something to consider.

I knew there had to be a good part of it--the living room is pretty fabulous.

I'd try to size things so as to keep the floor in there. It doesn't look too bad and might refinish really well.

Fori, we wanted to keep the floor in there and just refinish it, but with ripping out the island that will leave a weird-shaped hole and the floor there isn't one we can match. We've just decided to replace the whole room with that tile from my first post.

Funkycamper, thank you for that insight. It's definitely something I will keep in mind. When I meet with my cabinet desiner this weekend I'll ask what his thoughts there are too. Because we're also ordering the slab for the counters from him custom he might also be able to just make an insert for the sink out of the same material as the counter-top too.

Here's what I believe funkycamper is suggesting:

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This gives you a lovely stretch of counter for prep between sink and range, plus it puts the sink next to the DW and eliminates some of the conflicts mentioned above.

I added a 15" counter overhang (assuming you'll have one even though it's not shown). I posted NKBA's recommended minimum aisle of 44" between peninsula and table. You could go with a narrower aisle but I wouldn't go narrower than 40" so that people can easily move about behind anyone seated at the counter.

Here's an easy reach corner

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[Beach Style Kitchen[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/beach-style-kitchen-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_709~s_2110) by Ridgeland Kitchen & Bath Designers Center Point Cabinets

People who have them say that they are much more usable than angled corner uppers (things don't get lost behind other things and you have a much wider opening to access items in the cab).

In an earlier post, you said: "7. The sink can move but with the window there, I don’t see why we would. "

We are accustomed to seeing sinks under a window (or a window over a sink). I think this is a holdover from a time before DW existed, and Mom spent a lot of time washing dishes by hand, watching the kids in the back yard. Now, we spend a lot less time hand-washing dishes.

I've seen it reported here that we spend the majority of our time prepping food, much less with cleanup and cooking. So having a big prep area in front of the window would be wonderful! Besides, if you move the sink to the peninsula, you would be looking out over your living room, and out those big windows into the beautiful yard beyond.

Thanks for posting the picture of the easy-reach cabinet. Those types of doors (with a hinge) are the ones my cabinet maker is hesitant to make. He says they often don't get closed properly (especially with kids) and thus often break after a few years.... but I'll talk to him about it.

Lisa, yes, I did plan on a 15" overhang... the design program I was using isn't accomstomed to such things so there was no way to really put it on there. I need to just hand-sketch it up.

Thanks for drawing that up for me with the moved sink. I'm still very hesitant to put the sink there as I think it limits the use of the peninsula. For example, now pulling seats up there would be silly because there'd be a faucet in your face.

I can't go for a smaller sink either because with just the two of us eating I more often than not end up hand-washing all of my dishes instead of using the dishwasher.

Hmmm...

I have two easy-reach cabinets (though my kids are 20 years old). In the year and a half that we've had them, once in a while my DH doesn't close them properly, but the vast majority of the time they are, well, easy!

I guess if I had kids that couldn't or wouldn't close them properly, I wouldn't put stuff in there that kids would be going after regularly.

As for the sink - get a single bowl, and offset the faucet to the right.

You do need to educate everyone on how to close the easy reach door but they will learn fast. As said don't put every day stuff in there. I have mixing bowls the rice maker, etc Stuff that usually gets used by me.

Even if its just two of you why not use the dw for everything? You don't have to run it everyday. Love my single basin sink.

Would this be too tight on the LR side?

Well, I admit my scenarios were overly dramatic, lol. But I really wanted to make it clear to you just how bad that range/sink/DW placement is, imho.

Lisa, yes, that's it.

Why not use your DW? There are only two of us. While I tend to hand wash bigger pots and pans and a few prep gadgets that I use frequently, all dishes/glasses/cutlery go in the DW. When it's almost full, I might put a few of those bigger items to fill it. In a busy week, it might take 3 days to fill the DW. Things come out just fine.

Your peninsula would be deeper for seating. Probably a 15" overhang. People would not be pulled up to the sink. I've been in many homes with peninsulas or islands in the sink with seating around it and it's never been an issue.

I like Sena's suggestion. I think the only thing I'd change would be to move the sink farther "north" to gain clearance between sink and stove so people could work at each without bumping into each other.

Your spacious living area would allow you to make a wider peninsula, resolving much/all the "faucet in your face" issue. You could make the seating elevated (which my family actually loves . . . seeming to choose the elevated seating over the counter level island), and/or just make it nice and wide. Make it 42-48" inch wide island, and it's not going to be an issue, no matter if it's all the same level or elevated bar seating, IMHO.

Sena,

That wouldn't be too tight and indeed we did consider that layout. However, we ruled it out previously because we want a smooth flow of traffic from the entryway of the house into the kitchen. Having the peninsula there would mean you'd have to walk up and around. I don't see that as a horrible thing, but my SO and my dad (who is paying for the renovations) both dislike that option.

Funkycamper,

It's not that we don't like using it, it's just after a meal where the only dishes are two plates and some utensils we usually end up washing them right away. That being said, all my plates and such are in boxes in my storage unit so currently we're working off of my SO's stash in his small apartment kitchen so we only HAVE like 4 plates, thus, we just wash them immediately. Once we unpack all of my stuff (ohhh I can't wait! I miss my kitchen stuff so much!!!) we might be using the dishwasher more often.

lol, that does explain the frequent sink washing. I'm sure in the future, especially once you do start a family, that DW will see heavy use.

What about this?

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It's not a big adjustment, but:

1) The dining table is centered on the window, which will look better and make more sense, and there's a bit more room between the table and the fireplace (the two seemed uncomfortably close before).

2) The island provides a strong, dividing line between between the kitchen and the living area. The straight, wide walkway dividing the room also provides more definition for the various areas.

3) You have a defined foyer now with two big closets that could either both face the foyer or have one facing the foyer and one facing the living room. This will help the different foyer flooring to seem less random/abrupt and be less of a feature.

4) I also added a door directly from the garage into the foyer for ease of bringing in groceries.

i like jillus's ideas! Nice! The new closets will be very handy, too, and that added divider between foyer and living space is awesome.

I think using her plan as a starting point, you could tweak a few things. Maybe extend the refrigerator wall another 20-24 inches towards that window by adding a pull out pantry there next to the fridge or a short 24" counter run. I have just 24" counter/cabinet run adjacent to my fridge, and it's very handy as a landing spot as well as a drink station. Mine happens to be 30" deep (easy to do next to the deep fridge, which really maximizes storage and counter space.

Alternately, and maybe better, just push that fridge down 18-24" towards that window, which would lengthen your sink run a good bit, allowing you to nudge the sink down further away from your range, too.

Bravo, Jillius!

Thank you both! I agree it would be nice for the kitchen if the fridge wall could be longer, but I worry that will excessively cramp the dining area. I personally would choose a fine kitchen and a good dining over a better kitchen and an awkward dining area.

I ran into this with my own condo, which also has a fairly open layout. The best possible kitchen plan made the other areas really awkward. I ended up picking the kitchen shape that made all the spaces work, on average, the best. It is still a functional kitchen, but not nearly as good as it could be if I'd only had the kitchen to consider. But instead of a good kitchen, small dining, and awkward living room, I now have a fine kitchen, big dining table, good living room, and a bonus area I am leaving empty and using for yoga (but it could have been an office or something).

This post was edited by Jillius on Fri, Feb 6, 15 at 13:10