Vee, upthread you wrote about a planetarium presentation you saw about the Crab Nebula. Do you recall back in the sixties all the fuss about scientists listening to radio signals emanating from 'outer space' that have since been identified as quasars and pulsars? Lots of people, though, were hoping (or dreading) that they were signals from extraterrestrials. I remember the lyrics of a song, psychedelic type, that went /We're over here receiving you.../We can hear you loud and clear.

The sixties was a nutty time with a lot of anxiety about UFOs and much pseudoscience was spawned. Decades later I read a book about people's susceptibility to pseudoscience and the author apparently thought the sixties' madness was a perfect illustration, saying that it was so pervasive that even governments (those of the U.S. and U.S.S.R. being two) took it seriously. I don't doubt that; it's much the same today with other science-gone-mad obsessions. I suspect it has always been so. Did it seem so in the UK in the sixties? What bizarre things were all the buzz? Were crop circles and 'Ley lines' that early?

Frieda, I well-remember a very popular radio 'soap' of the 1950's called Journey into Space and the similar boys' comics with a 'Space/ Little Green Men' theme.
Sometime as a child in the mid-ish 'fifties, I was glancing out of the kitchen window at nothing as it was quite dark, when suddenly a bright light swept across the low sky from L to R. I ran to my parents and told them what I had seen. They both with 'one voice' replied "No you didn't. It's time you went to bed." Protest was impossible. The next day when I returned from school I was told. "You did see something last night. It was a comet, here's a report in the newspaper." By this time I really didn't care, because I hadn't been believed, which is a pity, because it could have led to an interest in the subject, rather than me thinking I couldn't be trusted to tell the truth. ;-(
On a less neurotic note sometime in the early 70's, while visiting the cathedral city of Hereford, I bought a 'remaindered' copy of Alfred Watkins' book about ley lines. He had lived in the area and come up with the idea, I think, in the early 1920's and although his theories don't hold water with today's increased archaeological knowledge it is possible to see why they 'held sway' among many folk.
You may have read or seen via TV the many new facts that are coming to light about Stonehenge and the surrounding area and another 'henge' on the coast of Norfolk where very low tides revealed a palisade/circle with a huge upturned tree-trunk in the centre. Because of the fear of erosion it was decided to remove this 'feature', but various hippy groups (for want of a better name) turned up and caused a great stink. It was only after much ritual chanting etc that they were persuaded it was for the best.

Here is a link that might be useful: Ley Lines

Below is an article detailing the finding of a second henge on the Norfolk coast. I hadn't heard about this one; it makes interesting reading.

Here is a link that might be useful: Sea Henge

Vee, I sort of understand the attraction of Watkins' "ley lines" as an explanation of ancient people's seeming preoccupation with building their monuments in an interconnected fashion. I wrote in a separate thread about the Chaco Canyon/Mesa Verde people (familiarly known incorrectly as the Anasazi) of the American Southwest where a 'line' phenomenon has been noted there, as well, among their structures. Lines (perhaps pathways or roads) radiate from them -- some leading to other edifices, but others peter out, seemingly to lead nowhere. And, of course, there are the famous Nazca lines of Peru, fancifully shaped geoglyphs that some researchers/writers claim have some special significance beyond being giant artworks. The Australian aboriginals had/have their 'line' traditions, too.

Perhaps the line phenomena are rivaled only by the circle-building. I wasn't aware of the second sea henge, either. I can't keep up with all these discoveries, much less their interpretations. I did read recently about the stone circle found submerged in the Sea of Galilee, estimated to be more than 4,000 years old. It quite possibly was built underwater rather than later flooded, or so says the reportage.

I was going to ask you about the ancient archer whose remains were found at Amesbury, but my Internet connection has been lousy this morning so I can't look him up. I think he belongs to the burials of the Bell Beaker folk. I recall that his teeth and bones were subjected to 'isotope tests' that indicate he was born and spent his formative years north of the Alps (referring back to your mention of teeth). There was testing on other individuals in the burials and they were found to have originated locally to the site of their grave/s.

Here is a link that might be useful: Sea of Galilee Circle

Not like the discussion you all are having, but our guide in Greece told us that the Acropolis in Athens, the Temple of Poseidon on Cape Sounion, and the Temple of Aphaia at Aegina form a perfect triangle worked out by those ancient Greek mathematicians. Aside from the math, which has always been an enigma to me, the Temple of Aphaia was the most evocative of a past "gone with the wind" of anything I've ever seen, including Stonehenge and Mesa Verde.

I can't contribute anything to your learned discussion, but I am enjoying reading it.

Carolyn, of course you can contribute. You just did!

Ah yes, the good old Greeks had a way with geometry. Viewing their monuments today requires a good dose of imagination or some sort of blinkers to avoid the contrast of their splendor and the sprawling slums around them. Slums have always existed, though; and ancient slums can be just as interesting archaeologically as the most visually impressive ancient monuments. And often they can tell us a lot more of the reality of people's lives. Depends on what you want: history of elites or history of hoi polloi. Personally I like the archaeology of ancient rubbish. The smell has dissipated after all.

Carolyn, you like history and science, don't you? Of course you do; you love to travel.

Those sea henges are fascinating! I knew Stonehenge was being completely reexamined and had new features, but I was unaware of the others. Thanks for the links.

Another history/science discovery that has always fascinated me are bog bodies. Finding remains thousands of years old and fairly intact is, to me at least, stunningly amazing. Otzi the iceman would fall into this category, too (geez, no wonder I liked Mary Roach's Stiff!). To be able to see and touch and learn from another human separated from us by so much time -- It's a sort of immortality.

One book I enjoyed on the subject was The Life and Death of a Druid Prince by Ann Ross and Don Robins. They propose that Lindow Man (cut from a bog in 1984) might have been a Druid offering to the gods in the hopes of repelling the Romans. The premise might be fiction, but they covered a lot of interesting information about the ritual triple death, how the bog preserved the body, and what the scientists who examined him learned. Gruesome, but so interesting!

I've been meaning to find a good book on Otzi, too, if anyone has a recommendation.

I, too am reading with interest but without having anything really sensible to contribute.
Science wise: My closest brushes with astronomy were going to the London Planetarium soon after it opened; having a phone conversation with someone at the Perth WA Observatory when the Southern Cross disappeared (this was seasonal it turned out and he kindly sent me a star map) and giving popular astronomer Sir Patrick Moore a kiss at his birthday bash.
As to astrology, I once had a temporary job at a newspaper and the editor tossed me a book of predictions and told me to write the "Your Stars for the Week Ahead" column!
I gave everyone a good future. Some people ( like my superstitious mother) swear by them!

This post was edited by annpan on Fri, Feb 6, 15 at 8:50

Sheri, gruesome for sure, but the bog bodies are right up there with the Tarim mummies in my opinion. I've read about Lindow Man, probably in the book you mention, The Life and Death of a Druid Prince, and one bit of info that stuck with me is: the bodies are boneless! They are actually sacks, hides tanned by the tannic acid and other chemicals present in the bog water, the bones and most of the innards having dissolved. Unfortunately this prevents any extraction of material for DNA analysis (at least so far it does). Mummies, including Otzi -- naturally preserved ones that is -- are excellent candidates for DNA analysis. I read somewhere about Otzi's DNA but I can't recall the conclusions.

Sheri, I've read The Man in the Ice by Konrad Spindler but it was published in 1996 and sure to be out of date now. I also read Iceman: Uncovering the Life and Times of a Prehistoric Man... by Brenda Fowler but that was published in 2001. Like you, I need a good, more up-to-date recommendation.

Oh oh, I just remembered where I read about Oetzi's (alternate spelling) DNA analysis. It's in Svante Paabo's Neandertal Man. Paabo is a paleogeneticist, in fact one of the founders of paleogenetics, and was approached with the proposal of analyzing Oetzi's DNA. He and his team did after a maddening time of trying to separate out the modern DNA of Oetzi's handlers who unwittingly contaminated his remains. Paabo could tell the difference because the modern DNA was not as degraded.

Anyway, the mtDNA analysis results indicate that Oetzi's DNA is very similar to modern DNA in the region where he was found. The reason: he's only 5,300 years old!

Paabo is Swedish by way of Estonia, Sheri. Perhaps you and he are related. :-)

Frieda, I hadn't heard of that particular Amesbury burial, although the area is littered with bits of our ancient past. The only thing I remember about the Beaker Folk is that nobody really knew/knows anything about them!
As Sheri mentions lots more work has been carried out in the area of Stonehenge and many mini-henges, processional-ways, huge pits of animal bones . . . left over from feeding the many hundreds of people who would have been needed for such a long-term 'project' . . . have been unearthed. It is also claimed that all the 'roadways' would have been marked by white pebbles/stones so they would have stood out for miles.
I wonder if there were dedicated groups/families that carried out these tasks. Surely if everyone from miles around did it, who would be left behind to 'mind the shop'?
When you consider that these 'people' world-wide, over many hundreds/thousands of years and with no writing systems were able to map the stars and accurately build these enormous complicated structures to fit in with their stored information (presumably just in their 'heads') it is quite mind boggling.

Here is a link that might be useful: Recent Finds Near Stonehenge

Annpan, I want my threads to be as inclusive as possible. Digression doesn't bother me a bit. So anything that occurs to anyone, history- and science-wise, is legit as far as I'm concerned. Besides everything is related in some way -- don't you think so?

Every time I am in the southern hemisphere, I'm on the lookout for the Southern Cross. Unfortunately, I remain ignorant of most of the austral constellations.

Frieda, thanks for the titles on Otzi, I will check them out, but I'm definitely looking for something more recent. If I'm recalling this correctly, scientists didn't manage to figure out he had an arrow stuck in him until ten years after the body was first examined.

I have a book on the Tarim mummies somewhere ... they were the ones with the red hair and plaid cloth in Asia, correct?

Vee, thanks for the link. I wish I'd seen the program, but perhaps BBC America will have it on again or I can find it on Netflix. I've been to England twice and my greatest regret is not getting out to Stonehenge. Next time!

This post was edited by sheriz6 on Fri, Feb 6, 15 at 11:18

Sheri, if you run across more recent Otzi books, please let me know. Yes, I think it was a number of years before the arrow was found. I did read an article about the scientists finding more of Oetzi's tattoos (link below).

Vee, archaeologists have tons of evidence of the Bell Beaker folk, mostly their distinctive pottery, and in recent years they've begun to understand more and more about them. I'll see if I can find the Amesbury archer information I read, because he seems to have been a prominent individual in spite of being a foreigner in the Amesbury region.

Oddly, perhaps, I've never been physically impressed with Stonehenge, although I've visited the site several times. I think I must have built it up too much in my mind before actually seeing it for the first time. Part of my disappointment is having to stay on the path so far from the stones. I never had the clout to be allowed any nearer. Perhaps I should claim to be a New Age Druid to get dispensation. ;-)

Sheri, yes, the Tarim mummies are the Caucasians with the tartan fabrics that are buried in what is now northwest China and the Altai region of central Asia.

Here is a link that might be useful: Oetzi's Tattoos

I'm woefully behind with my NF & popular science TBR. I usually pick up the Best American Science and Nature Writing anthology every year and haven't done that for two or three years now.

Relative to discussion above, has anyone read "Before the Dawn" by Nicholas Wade? My memory for specifics is terrible, but I remember being fascinated by one section where they were able to guesstimate how long ago man started wearing clothing by tracing the evolutionary changes in lice. The book was full of fascinating tidbits like that.

The usage of ground-penetrating radar to "X ray" ruins in recent times has been a fascinating development. This has been mentioned in my course on the American West, in that whereabouts of Native American settlements have been updated and traced, e.g. the Mandans and Hidatza's of the Dakotas.

Sheri, those bog bodies are fascinating. I recall reading "The Red-Haired Girl in the Bog" about a find in Ireland that intrigued me.

Georgia, it's good to see you posting! We've missed you.

I did read Before the Dawn: Recovering the Lost History of Our Ancestors, but like you I don't recall many specifics about it, not even the bit about the evolutionary changes in lice. But now that you've mentioned it, Georgia, I am likely to remember it much better. I want to reread to find what else I missed.

I found several articles about the Amesbury archer and his supposed connection to Stonehenge, Vee. You may find the one I linked to below interesting.

Here is a link that might be useful: Amesbury Archer burial

Frieda, I understand that there are after hours tours of Stonehenge now that allow the visitors to walk among the stones. You might like to do that on another trip. I was underwhelmed there, too, and thought I probably had read too much about it beforehand. Have you read Bernard Cornwall's fictional Stonehenge?

I like history, yes; science, not so much!

The Cosmic Perspective by Bennett, Donahue, Schneider & Voit for physic 101 though I have yet to take the class. I just started reading the text on my own.

Ladyrose, another 'read-aheader'! I never could resist doing that for my classes.

I see that The Cosmic Perspective is now in its 7th edition. That must mean it is very effective. I'll take a stab at it, since I certainly need a refresher in astronomy. Thanks for the mention.

Carolyn, thanks for the tip about the after hours tours of Stonehenge. I will do that next time, since there's not much point in repeating my previously unsatisfying experiences. But shucks! I was looking forward to turning into a New Age Druid.

I did read Cornwell's Stonehenge; must have been a decade ago now. But my romanticized notions go back to Anya Seton's The Mistletoe and Sword, her novel that I first read when I was about thirteen. It's set in Roman Britain, and the protagonist is a young standard bearer of the Ninth Legion, the one that was essentially wiped out by Boadicea (Boudicca). His name is Quintus Tullius Pertinax and he fell in love with Boadicea's foster daughter, Regan, whose grandfather was a Druid, after he rescues her from suffering the same fate of being raped as her foster mother and foster sisters. Stonehenge figures prominently although it's a long way from the land of the Iceni, Boadicea's tribe.

It's not the opera it sounds like, though. I don't know how much Seton or anyone knew about Stonehenge when she wrote her book, since she chose the Roman period instead of a couple of thousand years earlier. Of course it's imaginative in a 1950s sort of way, but I've loved several copies of the book to pieces. I knew I wanted to see Stonehenge because of it. I did, but somehow Stonehenge had shrunk!

As some of you have said, when I first visited Stonehenge I was quite underwhelmed.
I think I have probably mentioned this before but, way back in the mid '60's and at College and friend got in touch to say that a couple of lads, one the proud owner of a van were planning an over-night trip to Stonehenge at about the time of the Summer Equinox . . . the 24th June I think. With some trepidation I joined in (not worried about my virtue but the fact that being out of College overnight could get me into Big Trouble). We drove down and arrived in the early hours. When dawn broke, which we couldn't see as it was very cloudy, we simply climbed over the wire fence and wandered among the stones.
The only other person there was, to me, an ancient 'Professor' type, wearing a wide-brimmed hat and a long cloak and the boys helped drag him over the wire. After about twenty minutes we climbed out, leaving the ancient one behind. We saw no other people, no security signs, no traffic, just grey morning light.
By now we were more interested in finding somewhere open at dawn that served breakfast!
Looking back I realise this amazingly quiet experience should have meant more to me, but I found the stones so small and stone-like I was not able to appreciate that, to a distant peoples used to nothing bigger than a simple 'round house' construction, this circle would have appeared awe inspiring, especially when its religious significance had been part of their whole belief system. Rather as with us visiting St Peter's in Rome or Westminster Abbey or the Blue Mosque.

I was able to visit Stonehenge before it got closed off. I must also have been underwhelmed because I can't remember much about it. It could have been a stop off on the way to visiting Woburn Abbey on a coach trip I took in the mid 1950s.
It was like a broken clock and had no vibes for me at all.

Australia does have vibes in some places, as mentioned. Possibly magnetic forces getting through the thinner crust of an ancient land?

Thanks to all who admitted that Stonehenge didn't exactly thrill you once you actually saw it. It makes me feel better that I'm not the only one!

But I'm not really picking on Stonehenge; it's happened to me at other world-famous sites that should have impressed me more but didn't. I'm not a good tourist. However, I've found the less I expect, the more pleased I usually am. My daddy had a wonderful attitude about traveling and sightseeing: Don't over plan; let it go; let it flow; whatever happens, happens.

Annpan, I don't usually receive 'vibes', maybe I'm just not open to them. But occasionally I have experienced something that could be vibes for lack of a precise cause. One of them happened at Enchanted Rock in central Texas. I see why it was given its name. Is there such a thing in Australia as a map of 'vibration' sites?

Friedag, Sorry but I don't know of any map or book that has vibration sites in Australia listed. I don't even know if that would be a general term, I used it to describe the feeling I get from a place I am sensitive to. The best way I can describe getting vibes is like being a radio receiver and getting a signal. It seems to run in families, I find. Some of my family get stronger signals than I do but some don't understand it at all or are uncomfortable about it.

Frieda, I should have thanked you 'up thread' for your information on the Amesbury Archer but we had to dash off to a get-together for a family friend who was celebrating her 100th birthday. It was really uplifting after reading/hearing about all the dementia, Alzheimer's and other diseases of old-age, to meet someone with their braincells firing on all cylinders, still interested in everything going on in the world, busy knitting the animals for a 'Noah's Ark' and insisting on carrying out the dishes!
We all admired the card from Buckingham Palace. HM Queen sends a hand-written card to everyone on and over one hundred . .. one old lady of 105 complained that all four cards had the same picture so for the 5th a new photo was taken!
Sorry to be slightly off-topic but I think meeting someone with that amount of knowledge of 'recent' history meets some of the criteria of the subject. ;-)

Annpan, have you noted what sort of places you are sensitive to? Or does it vary quite a bit? I have used the term 'vibes' for the feelings I get about something, such as walking into a room and getting the signal that I might not be entirely welcome. But I was wondering whether there is possibly a more tangible manifestation, such as with those 'Ley lines' discussed above. I'm aware that the indigenous Australians think so, and Uluru is surely one of the sites -- but I don't know about others. Maybe Hanging Rock in Victoria is one that could be 'put on a map'. They most often seem to be geologic features but manmade sites, particularly ancient ones, may also signify.

Vee, my mother is 93 and much sharper than I am. She's less attuned to current events, but she quite acidly claims that is her prerogative!

So, do you have any thoughts about the Amesbury Archer that you care to relay?

Something else: Since you are so near Wales, how much of the Welsh language is incorporated into English in your vicinity? In the southwest of the U.S. many Spanish words are fully incorporated in English as many French words are in Louisiana and up the Mississippi (as well as in the U.S. states that border Quebec but of which I am less familiar). I'd love to know some Welsh/English examples and if you have any suggestions for my reading, I want those too.

I am one who has always gotten "vibrations" when I have been traveling in certain places. During the year that I traveled in Europe, in 14 countries, I often felt overwhelmed by feelings sweeping over me: "I have known this place before", for example, when I had not. The strongest occurred in rural Greece, on a mountain top. It was eerie and unforgettable.

Others occurred near Amesbury England, as I was walking to Stonehenge, in the "old town" of Edinburgh, Scotland, and in Santa Maria Maggiore cathedral in Italy.

So, years ago, when I read about Ley Lines, it all made sense to me: certain linkages of spiritual places of great and ancient power.

Frieda, you ask about any incorporation of the Welsh language into the 'English' spoken locally.
Just discussed it with John and we agree (!) that the 'Welsh' folk over the border in Monmouthshire are not very Welsh at all. I might be sticking my neck out but I would say that virtually no-one 'raised' there speaks Welsh as a first language, although it is now compulsory in all Welsh schools in the same way you and I might learn French or Spanish. I understand there is a school, probably near Newport, where lessons are taught 'through the medium of Welsh'.
The further West you go the more the language is spoken, especially in rural areas and, of course, in North Wales the people claim that their 'Welsh' in the pure form and is somewhat different to that spoken in the South.
I might also suggest that while everyone in Wales speaks English, Welsh is used in front of non-Welsh speakers just to remind the incomer, especially in shops/pubs/public places, that it is their language and you can't join in with the conversation.
A 'local' friend had to make a phone call to her daughter working away in Devonshire. The message was given to her daughter that a Welsh woman had tried to get in touch. Mother and Daughter were most put-out/insulted. "Welsh, me?". . . but the message taker had heard the slight speech inflections and the higher pitch of the female voice. ;-)

Mary, are the 'vibes' you experienced stronger than those of deja vu? Sounds like they are because you said you felt overwhelmed. I have had the feelings of "I have known this place before...when I had not", but mine have been vague and I usually could trace the deja vu back to reading about a place but subsequently having forgotten about it until I was actually physically there.

Vee, I've been reading The Origins of the British by Stephen Oppenheimer. He relates how linguists have tried to figure out what language (and its dialects) was spoken in what is now the south of England at the time of the Romans . A pretty good case can be made that it was Brythonic which included Welsh and Cornish. However, not all linguistics agree and some think there were dialects spoken in the south, southeast and east that already had more in common with continental languages. These dialects give hints from their tribal names for one thing, such as the Belgae and the Parisii, the latter being in East Yorkshire.

Anyway, Oppenheimer describes how 'borrowed' words and phrases from English to Welsh and vice versa had been a rather lopsided exchange. Yet there are quite a number of Welsh words and expressions and even the counting system based on four, with five groups of four becoming a score because when twenty was reached a mark was made on a rock, a piece of bark, or whatever and the counter continued vocally until he counted off another twenty (sheep probably). This system was carried to the U.S. but seems to survive only in spots of the country, and of course we Americans should recognize Abraham Lincoln's words: "Four score and seven years ago our forefathers brought forth on this continent..."

Some say that the children's counting rhyme eeny, meeny, miney, moe is a slurring of Brythonic yan, tan, tether, mether, pimp (5) which in some dialects changed to een, teen, tother, feather, fib.

Anyway, I'm looking for these borrowed Welsh words and expressions. There are probably more than are offered as examples in Oppenheimer's and other books.

Friedag, no, I haven't any set pattern to getting vibes. They just occur and sometimes come as premonitions, sensing an unearthly presence or on one occasion, hearing a voice in my head in a place where unknown to me, there had been a sudden death. I have read that this is called "trauma telepathy".
Although I can talk about it with my family, I rarely mention this "gift" as people could think it strange or want to discuss it too much!
I don't read books written about this kind of psychic ability but occasionally there are references in fiction to such recognisable things I also have such as the tingling in the upper arms that I can experience when "someone" is in the room.
Does this answer your question?

Here you are Frieda, "Sheep Counting from Cumbria"

See below

What are some of the Welsh words that we use in 'English' please?

Here is a link that might be useful: Counting Sheep in the Lake District

Annpan, yes, you've answered my question. Only I was thinking of something else on the order of 'vibes' that doesn't really have anything to do with what you're talking about. I was out in the deep weeds and mud somewhere!

Vee, are you asking me about Welsh words in English? I'm asking you! Oppenheimer makes the categorical statement: "there are many Welsh words and expressions used in English" and then he gives only the two examples I stated above. I did a search for 'Welsh words used in English' and found a few very short lists. It doesn't look to me like Welsh has worked its way into English very much at all. That's why I asked you, living as you do practically next door. :-)

This new format is enough to drive a saint berserk.

Frieda, if your 'expert' cannot suggest many words and I can't think of any it is probably that, as you suggest, there is almost no Welsh to English certainly 'conversationally'. I understand that the names of geographical locations such as valleys and hills become 'cym', 'pen' and so on and rivers such as the Usk, Wye and Avon are from pre-English roots. On the whole these words haven't arrived 'this side' of the border. eg in Herefordshire some miles North of here and only a couple of miles from Wales there is a hill that in Welsh might have been called 'Pen Lord Hereford' but is on all the maps as 'Lord Hereford's Knob' . . . vulgar but true.

Annpan, I was so discombobulated by the changes to RP that my manners deserted me. I forgot to thank you for your description of the kind of vibes that affect you. It's an intriguing topic, but probably too intensely personal to be wholly understood by anyone like me who doesn't have the 'gift'. I won't continue to pry.

Vee, yes, the names of landscape features are often indication of whatever the original language was -- a sort of 'founder's effect' and substrate to everything that has happened since. River names are especially reliable.

English has been accused of being a 'vacuum cleaner' language, sucking up words from other languages and recycling what English speakers find useful. It's a little surprising that English didn't find Welsh (and more widely, Brythonic) more useful, considering the proximity. The Welsh, understandably, consider English the interloper.

As aggressive as the English language is, though, there are many American-English speakers who worry that it might get taken over by a non-English language or languages. I think, rather, it's dialect-building. Spanglish, for example, is already widespread in Texas and it is cross-cultural in spite of the angst of the hair-pullers. I have heard that there's such a thing as Wenglish (combination Welsh/English) but the cultural crossover seems to be mostly one way, as you point out, Vee.

Friedag, you are fine with me. I know what you mean about being discombobulated! Still, onwards and upwards, as my mother used to say.

She went to Wales a few times and although she only used the word "hiraeth" which is a kind of longing, she used phrases from English as spoken in Wales, "look you!" "indeed to goodness" in a fond and humorous way.

Perhaps Welsh was too difficult to pronounce which is why it never made much of an inroad into English?

(Wow, how things have changed around here. It's going to take some time to get used to it).

Friedag, you‘re right on both accounts. I liked Salt, but found the last third or so of it quite rushed, but full of interesting facts about salt. Mauve was rather more interesting than enjoyable.

Thanks for mentioning the phosphorus book. It sounds interesting and I‘m adding it to my TBR list.

Yeah, I collect rocks and minerals, not in any organised way, but I do have some nice specimens I have collected in Iceland and abroad. The seashore around the area where I grew up had an abundance of chalcedony, including jasper and agates, which I used to love running around and collecting. Sadly, I haven‘t been able to run my rock tumbler since a neighbour complained about the noise (not loud, but persistent and rumbling, since it‘s run for weeks on end).

Funny thing, one of my co-workers is married to a geophysicist (who‘s having a whale of a time with the current volcanic eruption) and he collects seashells.

For whatever it's worth, I get the same sort of "vibrations" that Ann has described. I also have had clairvoyant dreams that predict deaths of certain people. Ann, have you had similar dreams?

I've always been interested in the history of the English language. I would like to know how the Saxon that was spoken under Alfred the Great and before his time melded with the Brythonic elements. (I mean before the time of Chaucer). I find it interesting that there are several ancient Celtic nations: Brittany,Isle of Man, Wales, parts of Ireland. There is also, I've read, a Celtic connection in parts of Spain. (Some Spanish have fair skin and freckles; rather like the "Black Irish.")

I can make the connection and linkage after the Norman conquest, when so many French words with Latin roots came into the English language, along with legal terms, more easily than the morphing of Saxon/Celtic earlier.

I must confess I am having a devil of a time concentrating in this dreadful new format. Apologies to all.

Netla, it just so happens that my geophysicist DH, like your co-worker's, is a seashell collector. Actually, I started the seashell collecting -- I think to keep up with his rocks and minerals and then got him interested. We sometimes intersperse them in our displays.

I find all seashells interesting, but I have a thing for BIG shells and have helmets as much as 20 inches across the mouth, turbans, Australian trumpets, and giant clam shells. I love cowries of any size because they are colorful, distinctively patterned, and are naturally polished and shiny. I also love cone shells (nasty critters when they were alive) because of their thickness. DH knows that he can bring me a souvenir seashell, from wherever he travels that has them, and I'll be pleased. I actually prefer seashells that we've found ourselves while beachcombing, but we've bought rarer specimens that we probably could not have found on our own.

We both like fossilized shells as well. I found a three-foot diameter ammonite, which of course is a natural cast. It's my pride and joy and now resides on our lanai.

See, Netla, you can get me started on all sorts of subjects by a casual mention. :-) I'm glad to see that you didn't get lost in the big upheaval.

Woodnymph, no dreams like that but I have foreseen some future happenings that have involved death or an accident at a specific place where I am. In fact, in one instance that involved the failure of machinery, I casually asked if it were likely to happen and was told that everything was checked. The accident did occur later as I "saw and heard". I don't like these sightings as I cannot prevent the outcome. I have no idea how predictions come about and how some people can know what is going to happen but it is well documented that it is possible.

Annpan, in what context are "look you" and "indeed to goodness" used in Welsh-fashioned English? Is "look you" the reversal of "you look" as in the command in English that most commonly would just be "Look!" I ask because I picked up "look you" somewhere as a way of saying "look at you!" admiringly, such as when someone is dressed to the nines.

Is Welsh especially hard to pronounce for English speakers? I do know that Welsh orthography is hard to fathom to the uninitiated, although I'm told that once you know the rules it shouldn't be any harder than English orthography, which even to native speakers is full of potholes.

Vee might be better able to explain but I heard "look you" in the context of "take note" and "indeed to goodness" as an exclamation of surprise. Similar to the Irish "Is that a fact, now?"

I don't know if Welsh is hard to pronounce. I have never tried it. Welsh speakers I have heard speaking English sometimes do it differently such as "neffer" for "never".

As I did the navigating when we drove around Wales I had to train myself to look at the lower part of road signs for the English direction, the upper part being in Welsh and not always what I could understand. It was like going to a foreign country but no passport needed...yet!

Ann and Frieda, I don't think I have ever heard a Welsh person say 'Look you' or similar phrases that we 'expect' of them.

And, yes, it is a very difficult language to pronounce! Much of it to the uninitiated sounds like throat-clearing and its use of double f's and double g's (which produce different sounds) is almost impossible for us outsiders . . . which is exactly how the Welsh like it. ;-)

Once you get over the border into Wales (only about 6 miles from me) all the road signs are in Welsh and sometimes one wonders at how many truck drivers understand the instructions for "lorries over 45 tons use the crawler lane for the next 5 miles" . . . in Welsh . . . probably none of them.

Spoken Welsh

Ann, that's amazing. I don't understand why I've always had these dreams, but I am a person who tends to make connections between various things that others might not see.

Vee, does Welsh have a sound that is like the gutteral German?

Vee, thanks for the link to the woman speaking Welsh.

Mary, I listened to the woman in the video and detected the back-of-the-throat gutturals similar to the German (e.g. the /ch/ of Bach) and Scottish (e.g. /ch/ of loch). Those sounds are probably difficult for English speakers over the age of about fifteen to produce. Those under fifteen, unless they have a speech disability, shouldn't have many/any problems. I didn't notice much 'R' rolling from this particular speaker, a feature of pronunciation (such as in Scottish and Spanish) that many (adult) English speakers can't reproduce and have a tendency to disparage because of it. Many Americans, interestingly to me, don't have problems 'rolling Rs' but, of course, some Americans can barely pronounce 'R' at all.

The double letters and the sounds they represent are interesting. English speakers, of course, wind up in most cases just pronouncing them as single sounds, such as giving the Ll of Welsh the sound of English L. The Welsh start with the tongue in the position to say L but barely get the sound initiated when they switch to the guttural sound of /ch/ (as in loch). Now that's a feat! It's the perfect shibboleth for the Welsh, isn't it, Vee?

Instead of persisting in saying 'Welsh', I should be referring to the language as 'Cymraeg'. From the etymology of the word 'Welsh', it's a wonder the people of Cymru put up with the unflattering derivation.

Friedag, I'm a bit new to RP and I hope you don't mind my jumping in with a book suggestion? In Travels in an Old Tongue: Touring the World Speaking Welsh, American Pamela Petro tries to wrap her tongue around The language and sets off to find Welsh-speaking communities around the world. She talks about the difficulties in pronunciation and spelling and grammar, and about "Welshness". The most "Welsh" community she finds is in Argentina, and they speak only Welsh and Spanish, no English! You might find it interesting.

bpathome, interesting about the Welsh in Patagonia, although I think most of the inhabitants are able to speak some English (though they might not admit it)
A Welsh Argentinian
I found this interesting article about a Patagonian/Welshman who fought for the Argentinians during the Falklands War. I cannot agree with his sentiments nor, I am sure would the vast majority of Welsh people who's Welsh Guards regiment suffered some horrific casualties in that unnecessary conflict.

bpathome, I'm over two weeks late in replying, but I wanted to let you know that I appreciate your suggestion of Travels in an Old Tongue: Touring the World Speaking Welsh. I've been rereading Bruce Chatwin's In Patagonia and Nowhere Is a Place (Chatwin and Paul Theroux), and I recall the mention of the Welsh in Patagonia in one (or both) of those books. I wonder how much the Patagonian dialect of Welsh has changed in the 150 years or so since it was brought to the region by Welsh immigrants, and whether the Welsh speakers of Wales, who have made their own changes to the language, can readily understand the Patagonians and vice versa.

Vee, I haven't been around much lately because it's too much trouble to dismantle the firewall and all the blocks. I can barely read and post anything in this new Houzz RP, much less go to any of the provided links, such as the one you made above. My computer seems to think Houzz is bad hoodoo. If I didn't love all you RPers so much, I wouldn't bother. :-(

Glad you do, then! The forum would not be the same without you.