Hi there, I to am mixing both of Al's soils & wondered if you are using sphagnum peat moss?

Yes it's sphagnum peat moss. It came as a compressed 3 cu ft bag

thank you, that's what I got ( 1 cu ft bail )

Halocline, are mixing both mixes together? And if so at what measurements? This would be something new, but defeats the purpose of the gritty mix from what I've read, but I may be misunderstanding.

no, no, i'm making both mixes separately. i'm trying the gritty mix with my bonsai's & thinking about using the 5-1-1 for my pre bonsai in training pots.

Rob.

you can use floor dry, NAPA part no. 8822, in lieu of turface. you can find that at an auto parts store, like napa. That's the stuff guys use in the shop to sop up oil spills.

I am sure there is plenty of Turface available in socal, look up Horizon Landscape supply, they have stores all over California. Calistoga Al

So what does Turface replace? 5 part barks, 1 part peat moss, 1 part perlite AND 1 part turface? Or is turface optional?

If you really want more water retention, it would be better to keep the peat at 1/7 of the mix and replace the perlite with unscreened Turface MVP. That way you don't sacrifice as much aeration for the added water. So, still 5:1:1 but with 5 bark, 1 peat, 1 unscreened Turface.
Sphagnum moss and sphagnum peat moss are different. This is sphagnum moss
{{gwi:10366}}

It has many horticultural applications, but isn't usually used in media.

Al

AL

The orchid folks might disagee about how often sphagnum moss is used in media, Al.

True enough. Thanks for keeping me on the straight/ narrow.

...... was just trying to make a delineation between sphagnum moss and sphagnum peat (moss).

Al

would there be too little aeration w/ the gritty sized pine bark, peat, unscreened turface & perlite?

Rob.

this is an afterthought but I don't hear much about using lava rock, could it be used in place of, or in addition to something?

Rob.

Soilless Substrate Management For Nursery Crops

by Dava Hayden

Extension Associate for Nursery Crops

http://www2.ca.uky.edu/HLA/Dunwell/SoillessSubstratemgt.html

It is an essential management practice to test and document each load of substrate prior to planting.

Each load received from your supplier may vary and will need to be tested.

Some substrate suppliers manage their product closely to ensure consistency from shipment to shipment. Other suppliers simply provide a product that allows their customers to adjust the substrate to meet their specific needs.

Testing substrate prior to planting will allow amendments to be properly incorporated in to the mix for greater plant benefit.

Failure to test each delivery of substrate may lead to plant toxicities or deficiencies if pH substrate problems are detected later in production.

Worse yet, expense to correct the problem or the loss of growth can costs far more than a preventative approach to substrate management.

Kentucky nursery growers of woody ornamentals generally use aged pine for its desirable characteristics.

Provided below is an exert from “Something to Grow On- Nutrient Management, key to growing healthy nursery crops” Department of Floriculture and Horticulture Department, Cornell University. For more information go to this link:

http://www.hort.cornell.edu/department/faculty/good/growon/media/organic.html

Bark is often used as a media component to increase the air porosity within a mix. Some bark fragments contain up to 43% internal porosity, from which roots can absorb water if penetration of the particle occurs (Pokorny, 1987).

Pine bark, which is acidic in nature, also has a low initial fertility-- an important characteristic of growing media. Composted bark has a higher cation exchange capacity than raw bark and represses pathogenic fungi (Hoitink, 1980).

Several bark particle sizes have been recommended for media composition. Suggested formulations for container-grown crops include:

a mix characterized by 25-33% of the pine bark particles less than 0.5mm in size;

peat moss based media containing 25-50% pine bark; or

media containing various bark particle sizes attained by using a hammermill with a screen size of 2 - 2.5 cm.

The use of bark in container media offers both advantages and disadvantages.

Bark which has not been composted properly induces nitrogen deficiency problems; however, composted bark with sufficient nitrogen fertilizer added during the process should not pose this problem.

Bark from alder, poplar, maple, and oak are prone to decay as a result of a high cellulose content; plants grown in media containing these barks may experience nitrogen deficiency as the constituents rapidly decompose.

Because of this, it is necessary to add more supplemental nitrogen to hardwood rather than softwood bark before or during composting to preclude nitrogen deficiency (Bilderback 1982).

Hardwood bark breaks down three times more quickly than softwood bark.

Continued decomposition of composted hardwood bark media during the growing season increases the water-holding capacity and decreases the air porosity of the mix.

In addition, hardwood bark seems to repress nematodes and root pathogens more effectively than softwood bark; fungicidal inhibitors and antagonistic organisms present in composted hardwood bark contribute to this repression.

Some barks contain organic or inorganic toxins, including high levels of monoterpenes, phenols, or manganese that may prove harmful to plants.

Phenolic compounds in fresh barks are especially toxic to young nursery crops.

Tree species, age, time of harvest, soil type, and geographical region are factors that affect phytotoxicity.

Bark derived from older trees, lower portions of the tree, or removed during winter months tends to be more phytotoxic than bark removed from younger trees, upper portions of the tree, or during spring months. I

n addition, obtaining bark of uniform quality and particle size is often difficult.

The characteristics of softwood and hardwood bark are quite different.

Some softwood bark can be used without composting; hardwood bark must be composted before use or phytotoxicity may ensue.

Aging and composting bark is usually an effective way to eradicate toxins.

Fresh pine bark repels water to a greater extent than aged pine bark or composted hardwood bark; to increase the moisture content of pine bark, soak it under a sprinkler system.

Although pine bark has a lower water-holding capacity than peat moss, it holds a greater amount of available water for the plant (Pokorny 1979).

Avoid water stress in newly planted nursery crops by watering regularly, particularly during the 30 days after planting.

Many plant materials appear to grow well in fresh pine bark (Self and Pounders 1974).

Fresh pine or softwood bark usually has an initial pH range of 4.0 - 5.0; as pine bark ages, the pH does not increase appreciably.

To increase the pH of pine bark, add 4 - 15 lbs. of dolomitic limestone per cubic yard; within a few weeks the pH of the media should equilibrate to a suitable planting pH (Bilderback 1982).

Aged pine bark is often favored over fresh pine bark by growers; this may be attributed to a more desirable particle size distribution in the former (Pokorny, 1975).

Recently harvested hardwood bark is usually characterized by a pH of 5.2 - 5.5.

Lime should not be added to hardwood bark mixes; as the bark ages or is composted, the pH may exceed 7.0 as a result of the natural calcium content of the bark.

To avoid magnesium deficiency in hardwood bark mixes, incorporate one pound of magnesium sulfate into each cubic yard of mix.

If a bark-sand mix is desired, add a low pH sand to decrease the pH of composted hardwood bark media (Bilderback, 1982).

As a general guideline, most woody ornamentals crops produced in soilless mix, desire a pH of 5.5 to 6.2 for optimum plant growth.

This generality is not true for all woody ornamental nursery crops, some prefer higher or lower pH.

Solubility of mineral nutrients are affected by substrate pH.

Iron, manganes, boron, copper, and zinc are most soluble when pH is above 5.0 and below 5.5.

On the contrary, as pH increases greater than 6.5, the availability of iron, manganese, boron, copper, and zinc decrease and micronutrient deficiencies symptoms begin to appear.

Chlorosis is an indication that the pH is too high.

When testing substrate pH, you should actually be testing your substrate solution, or the water within your substrate.

Use the water source from which your plants will be irrigated to determine your substrate solution.

If you receive soilless substrate that does not meet your needs, then soil amendments should be added.

If your pH is too low applications of either dolomitic limestone or a liquid basic fertilizer (one that contains nitrate) should be made.

Below is an exert from, the July 2004 edition of Digger Magazine. “Changing Container Substrate pH -What are the affects of peat moss, lime source and lime rate?”, by James Altland.

The article in its entirety can be viewed from the following link: http://www.oan.org/publications/articles/july04-2a.html.

Influence of lime rate: With no lime added, Douglas fir bark (with or without peat moss) has an initial pH of 4.2.

In our experiments, 5 pounds of pulverized lime raised substrate pH to 6.4, and 10 pounds raised pH over 7.

One might assume that doubling the rate of lime would raise pH twice as high. Keep in mind that pH is measured on a logarithmic scale, meaning for each unit increase in pH, H+ concentration decreases 10-fold. Conversely, a unit decrease in pH means the H+ concentration increases 10-fold.

Adding 5 pounds of lime resulted in an increase of 2.2 units of pH, which translates to about a 158-fold (102.2) decrease in H+ concentration.

Adding 10 pounds of lime caused pH to rise just 0.7 units higher than adding 5 pounds. That's still a 794-fold (102.9) increase in H+ concentration over containers receiving no lime.

If your pH is higher than 6.4, elemental sulfur or a liquid acidic fertilizer (one containing NH4) can be used to reduce the pH of your substrate.

Often, when using a pine bark substrate, high pH is not a problem unless too much lime was added or if you mix contains hard wood decomposition.

For further information on reducing pH, link to http://hcs.osu.edu/basicgreen/

More information will be included at a later date. Additional information will include;

Over-coming delayed nitrogen mineralization, or high N:C, from fresh bark substrates

Wetting agents to control moisture loss

Questions/Comments · Copyright © 2015 An Equal Opportunity University,
University of Kentucky, College of Agriculture
Last Updated: Tuesday, April 5, 2005

Why is peat moss so important?
http://www.peatmoss.com/blog/using-peat-moss/home-gardeners-why/home-gardeners-why-is-peat-moss-so-important/
Canadian sphagnum peat moss is a natural, organic soil conditionerthat regulates moisture and air around plant roots for ideal growing conditions. It will help to:

Save Water.
• Peat retains up to 20 times its weight in moisture, and releases water slowly as plants need it.

Aerate Heavy, Clay Soil.
• Peat moss allows for proper root growth by loosening and aerating soils.

Bind Sandy Soil.
• By adding body to sandy soil, Canadian peat helps it retain moisture and nutrients.

Reduce Leaching.
• Peat moss reduces leaching of nutrients in or added to the soil, releasing them over time. This will save on fertilizer.

Protect Soil.
• Peat moss protects soil from hardening and adds organic material.

Make Better Compost.
• Peat moss speeds the composting process, reduces odours and controls air and water in the compost pile.

Peat moss decomposes slowly over several years compared to compost which typically decomposes within one year. It has a reliable pH (3.4 to 4.8); is environmentally friendly and free of insects, weeds, seeds, salts and chemicals, and represents good value (bale compression means you get approximately two bales in one!). It’s the ideal growing medium for:

So........ Does all that mean lava rock is ok?

If it's pretty much chemically inert, physically stable, and the right size, it should be ok for inclusion in soils if it serves your purpose. The term 'lava rock' covers a lot of territory. Even rock products with the same name (pumice, scoria, etc) can vary significantly in properties, so Al's bag of perfect pebbles could vary considerably from Rob's bag of same. That's where an understanding of the concept serves you - deciding what's appropriate.

Al

your right Al I should have been more specific. I buy crushed red lava rock for my cactus & succulent soil mix. I don't know the scientific name for it but it's perfect size for the gritty mix. I just want to make the original 1-1-1 but i'm STILL waiting on my sieves.
How do you test water retention in a soil mix?
I also have some FP on the way.

Thanks, Rob

I still haven't got answers to my questions. Can anyone please try to answer these:

Question 1: I just wanted to know if I am doing the right thing. I hope the mix I mentioned is good enough for growing container veggies.

Question 2: Does this mix require more watering than usual? I can water up to 2 times a week till Feb and 3-4 times a week (if needed) in the hot summers

Question 3: Does the turface replace perlite or is in addition to the perlite? I believe the turface/lava rock is the optional part?

This post was edited by djkj on Tue, Feb 3, 15 at 8:36

People use lava rock all the time for aggregate media like the gritty mix. But since there are two different and readily available (at least for some of us) rocks produced by volcanoes, they are often referred to by the more specific names, scoria and pumice. Scoria is the red or black lava rock that holds less water and has a higher bulk density than pumice (light grey lava rock).

djkj, you might want to re-post this thread.
this one has become too convoluted (partially my fault).
I don't think you need to incorporate lava rock (scoria).
sorry.
Rob.

DJKJ - You didn't get answers because your questions are difficult to answer without a lot of qualification and a feel for what is going on insofar as the properties of the ingredients you're using (mainly the size of the bark). In order to get the most from your soils, limiting the volume of fine ingredients to something less than enough fines to fill all the large air pores between soil particles is best. The higher the % of fine particles and the finer the fines, the taller will be the perched water table you'll need to deal with. Understanding how particle size and the % of vines vs coarse material is more important than a recipe. With some experience, you'll be able to judge how much peat and perlite is required based on the bark size, and whether or not the bark is appropriate (in size).

Question 2 - generally, open soils (soils with better aeration and drainage) hold less water than soils based on small particles. This shouldn't be considered a problem with these soils because from the plant's perspective it's a GOOD thing. I consider soils that hold significant volumes of perched water to be 'problem' soils because even if growers like the convenience of not having to water for days at a time, plants are quick to show their disapproval of the botanical equivalent of being water-boarded.

How often your plants need watering depends on a number of factors, so no one can really answer #2. A newly established planting in a given volume of soil will need MUCH less water than a mature planting in the same volume. Wind, pot volume, volume of foliage, growth rate, humidity levels, light levels ..... all play a part in determining how much water a planting needs.

3 - in the 5:1:1 and similar media, Turface can be used as a replacement for perlite in cases where you want more water retention with a minimal sacrifice in aeration/ drainage. Since it holds more water than perlite, I would discourage its use in soils comprised primarily of fine materials in favor of perlite, which reduces water retention but doesn't necessarily improve aeration or drainage.

Al

Al, I think you have answered all my questions. I appreciate your time and efforts to address my questions. Cheers!!

And just for your information, I am using DynaGro FP as fertilizer when watering every 2 weeks and also ordered Protekt today so that I can fertilize every 2 weeks with that as well. So 1 Saturday of FP followed by 1 Saturday of Protekt. This is in addition to the SR Osmocote/MG in the soil. Only water on the other days (if needed). I will avoid giving FP to the flowering/fruiting plants.

Thanks for all your help!

Why would you avoid giving FP to the flowering/fruiting plants?

Josh

Same question .....

You're most welcome.

Al

greenman28 - Although you CAN, its better to use Pro-tekt and not FP when you want to lower the foliage production while still feeding and maintaining the plants during flowering/fruiting.

I am also going to try the high K (ProTekt) on root vegetables and see how they respond to the high K. I always thought high P was needed for root vegetables/bulbs but I am seeing that K also promotes root growth, so will be interesting to try it out.

I don't think that makes sense. Flowering is the largest energy sink in a plant.

I fertilize my Citrus and my peppers heavily while they are producing flowers and fruit in order to get the best crop and the largest fruit.

I think you might be confusing the Nitrogen lowering done in cold climates / short season areas. But even then you wouldn't cut the Nitrogen completely.

Josh

Not knowing the analysis of FP, I cannot comment on it. But it has been advocated in this forum that fertilizers with 3-1-2 ration is a better choice. But then if "P" is responsible for flowering and subsequently fruiting, then perhaps more "P" is needed. For this reason I also top dress 1-1-1 composition now and then, in addition to using 3-1-2 type, I am talking about peppers and tomatoes only.

Seysonn

seysonn

You want more "P" for your tomato's and Pepper's, heres a source for you.

Go to your local grocers, find the Cleaning products and look for any that are used for cleaning lime scale water stains from bathroom walls and fixtures.

Read the contents, most likely you are going to read "Phosphoric Acid". There you have it, the same as what Hydroponic growers use.

Also look for a product called Sanivac, not really sure on the spelling, but on the bottom of the instructions they tell you to not to flush the remaining solution down the commode that most people would do, but rather use it on your Peppers and Tomato;s.

This post was edited by ThunderBear48 on Sun, Feb 8, 15 at 5:21

Plants use roughly 6X as much N as P, and in any case, oversupplying the amount of P a plant needs has no potential to increase vitality, bloom profusion, or fruit yield, so be careful how much faith you put in excessive applications of any of the essential nutrients.

Also, take instructions to use the waste from the use of descaling products on plants, a practice that could produce unwanted results in the extreme, with a grain of salt. In most cases, when you apply a single element or compound aimed at raising the level of singular nutrients in the soil w/o the ability to accurately test to determine that action is appropriate, the odds that the action will be limiting are much greater than the odds it will limit the plant.

Al

Rob, that's one of those older horticultural sayings that seems to make sense, and yet is often misinterpreted or misapplied. Another phrasing I've heard is "Up, Down, All Around."

The truth is, NPK are necessary for all aspects of growth, and not so neatly compartmentalized.

People are often led to believe that providing more P will help with roots, or dumping on the K will result in more flowers, et cetera.

However, as Al wrote, adding more of what a plant doesn't need won't force the plant to do anything. Adding single elements, without testing, is more likely to Limit a plant than cause it to thrive.

The key is providing all the essential nutrients in a favorable ratio and in adequate amounts at all times.

In my opinion, we should get away from the gimmicky market formulations that push the "Veg" and "Bloom" products, and aim for an holistic regimen that takes into account how plants actually grow.

Josh

http://www.gardeningknowhow.com/garden-how-to/soil-fertilizers/fertilizer-numbers-npk.htm

Nitrogen (N) ��" nitrogen is largely responsible for the growth of leaves on the plant.

Phosphorus (P) ��" Phosphorus is largely responsible for root growth and flower and fruit development.

Potassium (K) ��" Potassium is a nutrient that helps the overall functions of the plant perform correctly.

====================

http://www.cleanairgardening.com/npkexplanation.html

What does each nutrient do? In addition to other properties,

Nitrogen helps plant foliage to grow strong.

Phosphorous helps roots and flowers grow and develop.

Potassium (Potash) is important for overall plant health.

===================

http://www.grow-it-organically.com/npk-fertilizer.html

Plants need

nitrogen for leaf growth,

phosphorus for root formation, stem growth, and fruiting.

potassium for flowering and plant immunity.

===================

http://www.learn2grow.com/gardeningguides/fertilizer/basics/understandingfertilizernumbers.aspx

Nitrogen provides plants with the ability to produce more chlorophyll, which in turn allows plants to grow quickly.

Phosphorous aids in root development and increases flowering ability and bloom size.

Potassium has many functions: It guards the plant against diseases and aids in drought protection and cold tolerance. It also serves a role in improving root development and helps in the process of photosynthesis.

===================

http://www.gardeners.com/how-to/fertilizer-basics/5161.html

Nitrogen helps plants make the proteins they need to produce new tissues.

Phosphorous stimulates root growth, helps the plant set buds and flowers, improves vitality and increases seed size. It does this by helping transfer energy from one part of the plant to another.

Potassium improves overall vigor of the plant. It helps the plants make carbohydrates and provides disease resistance. It also helps regulate metabolic activities.

===================

etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc.,

Josh and Nil have it right.

Al

Phosphorus is absolutely necessary for plant growth. It is needed for the energy transfer which is involved in plant growth functions. Phosphorus is also important for flower and fruit formation, and root growth.There can be too much of a good thing. The key to remember, as with any nutrient, is make sure it is needed before applying it to your soil. Plant growth will not be improved beyond what is normal by adding more of any nutrient. Before you grab the bloom promoter or starter fertilizer with high phosphorus, run a soil test to accurately determine what is really needed in your soil.

http://gadsden.ifas.ufl.edu/newsletters/2014/06/23/phosphorus-know-your-soil/

http://durham.ces.ncsu.edu/files/library/32/UNH%204.PDF

FERTILIZER COMPOSITION

The three major nutrients needed for plant growth are nitrogen (in the form of nitrate ions),

phosphorus (in the form of phosphate, P: O,), and potassium (in the form of potash, K_O). You

may hear these nutrients referred to as "N, P, and K."

Nitrogen (N) fuels leafy growth. Nitrogen is important for green grass, for vigorous collards

and other leafy vegetables, and for keeping a good dark green color in hollies. Yellowing may

indicate a nitrogen deficiency... but not necessarily. Too much nitrogen will burn plants' roots

and cause browned, crispy edges on leaves. Excess nitrogen can seriously injure shallow-rooted

plants such as azaleas and ferns.

Phosphorus (P) is important for root development, for flowering, and for setting fruit.

Vegetables grown for their roots (beets, carrots, etc) and for their fruits (tomatoes, peppers,

etc.) need more phosphorus than nitrogen. Flowering annuals need phosphorus to promote

blooms, rather than nitrogen to promote leafy growth. Specialty fertilizers sold as "bloom

boosters" will have a higher "P" number.

Potassium (K) is important for root development and for general vigor. A fall application of

potash helps make warm-season grasses (such as Bermuda and Zoysia) more winter-hardy.

http://ohioline.osu.edu/hyg-fact/1000/1601.html

Fertilizing Vegetable Garden SoilsHYG-1601-92

Marianne Riofrio Essential Plant Nutrient Elements

Nitrogen is essential for vigorous vegetative growth and development.

Phosphorus is necessary for good root development and for fruit and seed production.

The role of potassium is not as well understood, but is important for overall plant development.

http://www.ncagr.gov

The N.C. Department of Agriculture and Consumer Services

http://www.ncagr.gov/cyber/kidswrld/plant/nutrient.htm#Nitrogen

MacronutrientsNitrogen (N)Nitrogen is a part of all living cells and is a necessary part of all proteins, enzymes and metabolic processes involved in the synthesis and transfer of energy.Nitrogen is a part of chlorophyll, the green pigment of the plant that is responsible for photosynthesis.Helps plants with rapid growth, increasing seed and fruit production and improving the quality of leaf and forage crops.Nitrogen often comes from fertilizer application and from the air (legumes get their N from the atmosphere, water or rainfall contributes very little nitrogen)Phosphorus (P)Like nitrogen, phosphorus (P) is an essential part of the process of photosynthesis.Involved in the formation of all oils, sugars, starches, etc.Helps with the transformation of solar energy into chemical energy; proper plant maturation; withstanding stress.Effects rapid growth.Encourages blooming and root growth.Phosphorus often comes from fertilizer, bone meal, and superphosphate.Potassium (K)Potassium is absorbed by plants in larger amounts than any other mineral element except nitrogen and, in some cases, calcium.Helps in the building of protein, photosynthesis, fruit quality and reduction of diseases.Potassium is supplied to plants by soil minerals, organic materials, and fertilizer.

Plant Nutrients–Phosphorus

http://www.cfaitc.org/factsheets/pdf/Phosphorus.pdf

Plant Nutrients–Potassium

http://www.cfaitc.org/factsheets/pdf/Potassium.pdf