I think somebody needs to talk to the person who makes the shelving decisions at your library. I'm not sure that Life of Pi -- a book I loved -- is really appropriate for children, even fairly precocious(?) ones. There are some really graphic descriptions in that book. And Peace Like a River may not have complex writing, but it certainly has complex ideas, and I'm not sure too many children or young adults should be let loose to read it without some adult at least being there to discuss it with them.

Just my opinion.

I remember that I spotted my mother's copy of Forever Amber and asked to read it when I was rather young. She said if I was old enough to think it was interesting, then OK, I could read it, and I did. The "medical" parts were what interested me the most. However, the little library in our part of town wouldn't let me even have a card until I was five years old, and I well remember that its one room was divided in half: the right side for children's books, and the left "for adults." No kid was allowed to stray to the other side until the age of 12; so Life of Pi and the rest could have been shelved in the adult section and still have gotten read by some pretty young folks!

If the lovely little library is part of a large system, perhaps all the cataloging is done at a central location and books come with their spine label indicating in which collection the book belongs. Still, that begs the question of how on earth "Life of Pi" ever was considered a child's book. A child, a tiger--must be for kids? It is hard to believe that a librarian would not be interested in correcting this error, much less a librarian not familiar with the book itself.

I've found the librarians in my small town are not the least bit interested in correcting errors. I volunteer a few hours a week and spend a lot of that time shelving books. I find a lot of non-fiction cataloged as fiction. I'll take them to the desk, point out the error and find the same book in the fiction section again the next week.

Sometimes I think the people who decide which book goes where judge purely from the blurbs and the cover. The Education of Little Tree is still shelved in the biography section of some libraries and Life of Pi goes in the children's section because it's about a child. The main branch of the Reykjavik city library shelves the Anita Blake books in the teen section (the covers look reminiscent of the Buffy books), and the diaries of Adrian Mole in the adult section.

Not all librarians (including catalogers) are created equal. They may indeed be wonderful people, but it does not necessarily follow that they are good at their jobs. And recataloging a mis-identified item, besides being troublesome and costly, means admitting an embarrassing error.

Netla, I am laughing pretty hard at the Anita Blake books being in the teen section!

The books aren't catalogued centrally; that is one of the things that confounds me. When I look up a book, I can see where it shelved at all the different libraries. I could, in fact, drive over and get it myself as my card is good at all the network libraries. Sometimes I do that when I am going that way anyway, but with gas prices where they are, I usually just order it. It seems my local library has a pattern of shelving books in Childrens that IMHO don't really belong there. But of course you are right, Rosefolly, this may be the work of one person who just isn't good at deciding such things.

Siobham, a couple of eg's of unusual shelving as mentioned in letters to our daily paper (the Telegraph). One writer found a copy of Birth of the Film in the maternity section of her hospital library, and another noticed a book on lacrosse among religious works.

Oh, wonderful, Vee! Thanks.

Oh, I like that lacrosse one very much!

These days most books published in the United States have cataloging data from the Library of Congress printed on the verso of the title page, though of course librarians are free to use their own judgment about whether to follow what LC did. This makes the odd decisions Siobhan's librarian is making even more peculiar.

Siobhan,

I've noticed a few books shelved in places where I thought they ought not to be. This is my little solution: I get a small piece of paper and write and note saying my thoughts on where it was shelved and where it is usually shelved. This note goes in the date card pocket in the book - sticking out. Then, anonymously, I place the book in the bin of books to be checked back in. When the librarians at the front desk get the note, they usually take a moment to check into the query. My library is in a small town where everyone knows everyone and this gentle means prevents anyone from being seen as a complainer (me) or in the wrong (one or both of us - librarian and/or me).

Please keep us posted on this weird experience you've had at your library. The most fascinating part is the librarian yelling, "NEXT!" before you were quite ready to move on. Thank goodness you noticed because while I thoroughly endorse children reading what they are individually ready to absorb, many parents do not.

PAM

Siobhan,

I have no funny shelving stories to add, but I keep coming back to this thread because I can see a comedy skit of your episode being played out in my mind. I can visualize it all. I can even imagine the guys from Monty Python doing it. Or Lucille Ball or Carol Burnett or Garrison Keillor. It could be "hammed up" even more - exaggerated, you know, and I think it would get tons of laughs.

Silly.

Thanks for the chuckles!

An addendum: not all the people behind the desk are master's-trained librarians.

Cap'n Backfire

A Monty P sketch - yes - you can imagine it...

"Another one that puzzles me in the children's section - Lady Chatterley's Lover."

"Yes, we thought this lovely story about a country house seemed to go well next to The Secret Garden."

"But this was a banned book until 1962!"

"Well, that was over forty years ago. Attitudes have changed a lot over the years."

"Attitudes have changed??!! (John Cleese trademark screech.) This isn't a little bit of slap and tickle, it's bleedin' pornography!"

"I don't think it's necessary to swear. Remember, we are in the children's section of this library."

Martin, ROFL!

Bwahahahahahaha!! both to Martin (I can picture that perfectly) and to Vee.

leel-true-most of the people behind the counter at my lib are volunteers-myself included. However, we don't do the cataloguing-that IS done by an MLS. Most of the time they do use the Library of Congress info. And we have a paid shelver-a wonderful lady who moved here from Egypt and has limited English, but she is a demon at Dewey Decimal-since she started working for us, we have far fewer fruitless shelf searches after hearing the query..."the computer says it's on the shelf but I can't find it."

I once found the three volume set of SLEEPING BEAUTY, by A.N. Roquelaire, in the children's section of a used book store. For those who have never heard of it, it is hard-core S&M porn.

Brenda

One never knows does one, about the strange shelving practices. I used to go to a branch where I got very tired of seeing soooo many books out of place. (Or at least I thought they were out of place.) I said something about it one day. That's when the librarian informed me that ALL an author's books were placed together, regardless of his/her pen names. If this is the customary practice, I'd like to know. It doesn't seem to be where I go now.

Placing all an author's books together regardless of pen name was the practice at one time. This was changed with a revision of cataloging rules that took place about 20-25 years ago. Now they are supposed to be cataloged and shelved under the name the author used for that particular book. But sometimes people are reluctant to change a practice they have followed all their professional lives, especially when it seems to make sense to them. I find this reluctance understandable, even though I personally prefer the newer system.

Thanks Rosefolly, It's been about 20 years since I used that branch so I suspect I moved about the time the system changed. I understand the logic behind it, but if a person only knows the pen name, they can't find the author without combing the shelves. I like it better the newer way too.

I find it very irritating that "QUIET PLEASE" is no longer expected in libraries.
It amazes me when people speak out loud or worse yet try to use their cell phones in our local library!

There is a sign as you enter that cells are not allowed but that doesn't stop them.

Of course the 'enforcers' are a mimsy group in any matters such as this.

Am I outgrowing the new social order?

Anyone else have a noisy library?

Yes, very noisy, at least the public libraries here: squalling infants, gum-smackers and poppers, people munching snacks loudly, and my pet peeve: folks listening to too-loud rap music through head-phones which are useless. No one dares say a word....

I remember being very put out when I was reading a "Top 50" list of mysteries and couldn't find some of them, only to discover that they were shelved by the author's real name. How was I supposed to know?

And our libraries are getting noiser and noiser as time goes by--and I get older and more crochety, I suppose.

I admit to pulling misfiled books out and laying them on an open shelf when I find them. Our system sometimes uses school kids as volunteers, and they don't always alphabetize perfectly. At least, I prefer to think the mistakes are done by someone who isn't old enough to know better.

I'll be the dissenter and admit I don't mind at all the noise level increase in public libraries. To me, it means that the userbase has increased and all types of folks feel comfortable using the system and its resources which can only be a plus for society. Rudely disturbing others is obviously unnecessary and irresponsible but I don't expect the library to be like a tomb or church. My preteen children love to read and I feel sure their enthusiasm was nutured by our many library visits when they were small, visits which surely would have been less frequent had we had to whisper.
Loud conversations of any sort, including cell phone types, can be disruptive but well-modulated indoor voices are fine to me.

At the risk of being thought unkind, I have to say that the reference stacks in the basement of our main branch have become a flophouse. My kids hate having to go down there to do research. Each table seems to have a permanent resident who growls or curses if books are set down. Occasionally a newspaper is read, but mostly they just sit and watch each other and anyone else who comes through. It's scary. There have been a few incidents involving the police, and we have photos at our small branch library of banned personages. They bring in coffee or other beverages that remain on the tables all day. The no food rule was amended because it was apparently impossible to stop it from coming in-librarians saying "no food" precipitated some of the incidents. Now as long as it is lidded, it is allowed. The rest rooms have to be locked. Because it is a public facility, they have as much right to be there as anyone-but they aren't "using" the library.

My local library is also the high school library, so although there is an idea of keeping the noise down, it isn't terribly quiet. This doesn't bother me much because I don't try to work there, only pop in to select books.

With regard to shelving, there are some odd habits. The book shop I work in shelves all books by authors starting with Mc or Mac at the beginning of the Ms. I have always followed telephone book practice of considering all Mc names as Mac and filing alphabetically within the Ms.
Plus there seem to be so many people who just can't manage alphabetical order at all. It can be very frustrating because it makes finding a book very difficult.

That Sleeping Beauty book..... oh MY!!! THAT would have been quite the surprising bedtime story.

My favorite mis-shelving at our local library branch was the copy of Sex in Your Garden by Angela Overy. It was shelved with a number of human reproduction-oriented materials along with some books about having The Talk with your children. Of course, I picked it up to look at it because it just seemed odd. Turns out that its all about PLANT reproductive processes and went into great detail on plant propogation. LOL!

Can't you just hear it? Mommy, do I have a pistil or a stamen? hahahahahahaha!

This is on the same line as noisy libraries.........as a retired Middle School teacher I have to make an observation.
Do you notice that most "propriety guidelines" are suspended by the young?! They need guidelines but it would seem that as adults we just aren't that interested any more. A good case in point is the noise levels in our school cafeterias. How can any school justify such deafening racket? How can children be expected to eat in this environment? Yet our schools do little to teach any kind of behavior control in the cafeterias. Yelling and obnoxious acting out is the rule. It appears the animals are in charge of the zoo.

Our poor children.

yoyobon-the number of times I say to a student-"You just don't DO that..." and they have no clue. The bumper sticker "where are we going and why are we in this handbasket" pretty much covers it!

Astrokath-I learned, so many years ago, that names beginning with the prefix Mc or Mac do come before the rest of the Ms. However, I also learned to spell alright as one word with one l, not to use a comma before the "and" in a list, and when making a singular word ending in "s" a possessive, to only add the apostrophe, not the apostrophe and another s-i.e. Jess' cat. The current English grammar series from which I now teach countermands all these rules. Too too confusing!

Yoyobon - You have touched upon a sore subject for me. My poor son in 4th grade, a very slow and polite eater, is give 15 minutes for lunch in a cafeteria designed to hold 150 uncomfortably, and his class is 210. After many complaints, they finally split the lunch period in two, but it really bothers me that that these kids have to shovel lunch down so quickly if they want any recess. By the time they get through line they have five minutes to eat.

On the subject of miscategorized books, I recently assisted the library with their annual book sale. I worked in the children's books, and it was quite amusing to see what was thrown in there. The Tao of Pooh and the Te of Piglet and quite a few of the newer adult graphic novels were there. Obiously, someone took a glance at the graphic novels and immediately assumed they were comic books.

I think the noisy cafeteria problem has been around for a long time. I went without lunch in high school rather than go to the cafeteria. I went to the library instead. That was 30 years ago. My son who also has a sensitive ear found the noise level actually painful at times in elementary school. Now in high school he can handle it.

When I was teaching LD students in the last few years, I also was chagrined to note that rules of grammar I had learned were changing. What's that about?

Back to the cafeteria, I've only had 1 visit to the cafeteria with my special ed. students at my new school. It stood out that the kids were reasonably well behaved. They also wait until most are done before recess. That can make for a short recess, but at least the kids are less rushed over their food.

A library observation; at mine, one of the clerks refers to the books as "puppies" as in "This puppy is due back...." This struck me so funny one day I barely made it to my car before I started laughing. As libraries go I am realizing thanks to this thread that I am fortunate. It's well organized, professional, has an excellent on line catalog, and it's rare that I can't find a book that's supposed to be on the shelf. And then there's the booksale room. I can't imagine getting along without it!

I frequent various libraries around my area and all are a part of the larger library system yet each handle things differently.
For instance, our library has a "for sale" used book cart with all books being 50 cents. They rarely restock the cart. Another library has a huge shelf of "for sale " books which are only 10 cents. In addition there is an equally generous shelf with "free" books! All these are stocked weekly with new choices.
Go figure.

I think it has to do with the person running that particular library.

I had to chuckle at the use of the word "puppy" relating to the books. It never ceases to amaze me that people working in the public domain haven't got a clue about the inappropriateness of interjecting their slang words.

Our Lit. group is reading Genesis - (only first 4 chapters)
and there isn't one KJV Bible to be had in the whole of the County libraries. We have managed to gather enough together ourselves - reading other versions as well.
On another topic - I've only just discovered 'The Woman's Bible' written over a 100 years ago. My education!

It just happened to me. I found a Kathy Reichs book on the computer that I wanted to read and lo and behold, it wasn't shelved in mysteries, but in general fiction. The rest of Reichs' Tempe Brennan books are in the mystery section. I wrote a note saying:

"Dear Librarian, Thank you for all that you do for me and the other patrons. This book was shelved in gen. fiction when it may actually belong in mystery. Just thought I'd let you know in case someone else is searching for it."

I put the note in the card pocket before I slipped it in the return book slot.

Re: noise in libraries. My opinion is that talking should be permitted especially in the children's section but that parents need to teach their children proper library manners. When I hear children laughing over a book or discussing a book with classmates, I feel good because that means the library is becomming a popular and cherished treasure for the next generation. It is the cell phones and the mothers yelling at kids that make my teeth grind.

I am 38 and take my own kids to the library at least once a week. It is their place, too. But just as kids don't learn proper table manners if they never go to restaurants, kids need exposure to libraries to learn proper library manners. And very often, the parents need a bit of instruction in library manners as well. It's tough to teach what they don't know in the first place.

Not too old but often crochety,
PAM

Siobhan, this is extremely strange. Is your local part of a larger system, that is, a community library rather than standard? Does it use computers? Agreed, computers are only as good as the person running the system.

I delayed responding because I wanted to discuss this with one of my ex-co-workers to confirm [Or not:-)] my understanding of how things work. For many years, cataloging has been done by the publisher according to Dewey Decimal for public libraries and LC for specialist ones. If you look at the verso [Back of title page] the info is all there.

For fiction it's 813.54 [Dewey] and it's done just like non-fic as far as subject is concerned. Check the verso for details. The books my local library buys are processed at a central clearing house [Spine info etc] so Acquisitions chief role is entering the info into the library database. Occasionally, someone donates an older but desirable book which may need to be catalogued individually, which is when my long term Acquisition friend Sheila's cataloguing skills are needed.

When I first moved into what was then a small town, all kinds of errors were rife. Imagine, James Frazer's 'Golden Bough' was in the childrens' section. The dear lady who then ran the place and did sterling work, had no training at all. I believe she confused Frazer's book with Palgrave's 'Golden Treasury of English Verse' and had no idea it discussed, amongst other things, sexual customs in Borneo and New Guinea:-D

I often spotted mistakes in the older books and sent them down to Sheila for correction. But this shouldn't happen with new books like 'Life of Pi'. Who runs the library and what are their qualifications? Who funds it, decides the budget and does it have a paleolithic library board?

PAM....that is the problem exactly. No one takes the time to teach children how to behave ( add dress) in specific situations. We allow them to set their own standards and then let them apply that one standard in every instance.
Most of us over 50 know that certain places require specific behavior/manners. Unfortunately many children aren't being taught this. Why? Does it take too much time and effort or is it because the parents don't know either.

My mantra: It's MY world too.

About 15 years ago, the school district in which I substitute, and where my children attended, began to emphasis "appropriate" behavior. Kindergarteners learn what the word means, and then we bang away at it all the way through. It is appropriate to run and shout outside-it is not appropriate to do so in the cafeteria. It is never appropriate to use unkind words to a peer. Nor is it appropriate to ask personal questions of an adult...you get the drift. It started because this awareness was NOT being taught by many parents.
Three examples:
Three years ago, I was subbing full-time due to a teacher illness, and asked to meet with a set of parents because I was concerned about their child. Their child is very bright, but light years beyond disorganized and very unwilling to put forth any effort to tackle challenging assignments. If it was not something that had all ready been mastered, and might at first be difficult or seemingly "hard" in any way, this student pronounced it "stupid" or "boring" or wanted me to justify the assignment before there was any attempt. I expressed my concerns, only to be met with the statement: "We know that someday *** will do something to change the world, so we have been very careful since *** was a baby not to stifle ***'s spirit in any way with mundane or ordinary tasks." I was speechless. I wanted to inquire if there was a flash of light or other sign at birth...but that would have been very inappropriate!
Second scary example: Recently there were parent-teacher conferences. I have, this year, substituted in one particular team several times. I leave fairly extensive notes, and many of the notes pertained to the extremely inappropriate behavior of one student toward peers and staff. The classroom teacher had asked me to document, as an initial phone call at the beginning of the year had been met with something akin to boredom, and she wanted to try to emphasize to the parents that some action needed to be taken soon before the problem escalated. When the parents read the pages of documentation, their only answer was "yes, we know, the same things happen at home-we've gotten complaints from all the other parents in the neighborhood." This child is 10.
Third example: My son is in high school. Parking spaces for students are assigned, with preference going to those students who must stay after school for activities. After those students receive their numbers, then the leftover spaces are assigned starting with seniors in a lottery. A young woman in the junior class who is not involved in anything so booorrrriiiinnnngggg as after-school activities did not recieve a parking permit, which means she can still drive, but must park by the football stadium about 1/4 mile from school. She didn't care for the walk, so began parking where-ever; in the teacher's lot (also assigned spots) or in the admin lot, so that when the real "owner" of that space arrived, it was full...and when she was ticketed,...

cc.....amen, amen, amen.
If we lived close to each other I would have to meet you for coffee and commiseration.

All that you say is true.....and then some.

Parents.....are you listening?

When I worked at the local library, students [Usually high-school] would arrive demanding books for the project of the month. We had a maximum 3 books per subject rule and no renewals if there was a hold on a book. Time and again, spoiled brats turned up with 10 books per subject and unreasonable demands to renew. Over and over, parents tried to bully us into going against set rules. 'But she _needs_ them!' So, I pointed out did the kid waiting for them. I agree; most of the problems arise with parents who encourage self-centeredness thinly veiled as 'Self-esteem,' detestable phrase. We read much about the benefits of competitiveness yet it seems to me that civilizations advanced chiefly through pooling resources and mutual co-operation.

It is not only students who are demanding and thoughtless about assignments. We asked the lecturers at our local university to give us a list of items that needed copies prepared by library staff for the next term assignments before they went away.
I was told that the pressure of work caused by collecting and photocopying these books would be so great that I would not be able to take leave myself. My husband had the opportunity for us to go for a fortnight free of charge to a lovely holiday island but we had to turn it down.
Only a few of the lecturers gave us lists but all those who had not demanded that we prepare their copies urgently after they returned from their trip. Would you believe that they had all gone to the holiday island! I could have gone up there and bugged them for the lists so the staff would have had the work prepared and had my freeby too!
I was furious.

I have just heard on the BBC radio news that the Dallas library system is no longer going to allow 'smelly' people into their buildings. Are sniffer dogs going to be placed at the entrances to check on the cleanliness of incomers?

"Smelly people"?! What would the criteria be? What is smelly to me might not offend others. I cannot stand any kind of perfume at all. Absolutely cannot be near anyone who has marinated themselves in their favorite smell. To me that would be "smelly". Anyone who smokes excessively has a stale nasty odor as well...not offensive to all but certainly to many. Anyone who has recently been in or near silage needs to be kept a good country mile away from humanity! We haven't even opened up the subject of the great unwashed! That will certainly be interesting to watch this "smelly" rule enforced! The enforcer will have to be someone with unwaivering tact and diplomacy. Hmmmm...

Right now I am sure a lot of people are purposely enveloping themselves in noxious fumes and then heading over to the Dallas library, in the hopes that they will be refused admittance so they can sue, based on discrimination. And then live happily ever after on the settlement.

Oh Janalyn...sad but true, sad but true.

How is this for a welcome? Our city library now has a room where one can eat a carry-in lunch while reading? Is this usual? I've not come across such a helpful place before. Would the smell not be offensive in Dallas or is that only on arrival, not after an onion sandwich :-)?

Or maybe a nice big bowl of chili? LOL!

Actually I think they are trying to deal with a dilemma that tends to plague my own downtown library branch - homeless folks. Many are nice people with hygiene challenges resulting from their housing problems. Others can be a bit obnoxious. Air quality is a real problem regardless of the position taken on the homelessness issue. Because the library is warm and is a public place with convenient restrooms, there are many very smelly people who spend several hours sleeping at the tables. That much serious BO in one room tends to linger. Between the BO and lack of table space, our downtown branch can be quite off-putting at times. It is a definite challenge for our public libraries to be able to serve those who want to use the services (provide a pleasant, enjoyable experience), but at the same time avoid discriminating against people.

Ell probably has it correct in that this is an attempt to deal with the challenge of the homeless, many of whom are mentally ill to boot, taking refuge in the warm, quiet, safe public library. I work at a small branch in the well-heeled 'burbs where we must occasionally scold a teen for surfing sexually explicit sites. The memos coming from the urban main branch deal with issues which simply never crop up in our branch, including patrons who disrobe, steal books to sell, use foul, abusive language--in short, the same perplexing social issues common in the US. Noone wants to be insensitive, much less discriminatory, but there is a fine balance which is tough to find. Sounds like trying to maintain order on the basis of smell is doomed to fail with far too many "open to interpretation" loopholes.

ell, that was my first thought, too. I've seen the same kinds of social problems in the public libraries in my city, especially in winter. I've even seen pallets under the bushes by the library parking lot and seen some homeless hanging out on the library benches. Some policemen "kindly" questioned them with considerable restraint, I thought. A mixed gang of men and women, not at all old -- very, very sad.