Depends if you want established regular plants going at $150 plus for good sized specimens. SBOE would be excellent for this. They have a big fair in July, at that time there also is a vendor from Australia ("Down Under") who always shows up with a much larger variety of speciosums. The plants will feature a parentage of awarded outstanding Aussie crosses but will be sold by the stem. More expensive, smaller but much better plants, the best ones are sold during their Thursday nite opening dinner or first thing Friday morning. The other way to go is to google Australian vendors of D speciosums, many will export with appropriate Cites etc. All depends if you just want a non-specific speciosum or if you want a specific one of the 6 types. Then comes the question if you want a generic one or an awarded one (Au). If you just want a generic one I would get a list of American vendors coming to a Canadian show near you and contact them for a pre-order or go to the Santa Barbara show. Don't by shy to spend some money, $50,00 will get you a seedling where you wait 5 years plus for flowers, $150.00 is the minimum if you want to see flowers within 1 or 2 years. Check on their size, I have a huge Hillii with 30" long stems, 28 of these are not only heavy but also need 4' plus lateral space. also make sure your plant gets cold in the winter. My late mother had one in Calgary which she kept snuggly warm during their cold winter and it did not bloom until I fixed a 'cold room' in her basement where the heater was shut off and temps were allowed to go just below freezing. Then it bloomed its head off. Good luck, they are one of my favorite plants and put on spectacular shows when they bloom. Nick

Hi Ya'll, It's here! The swap is tommorrow! Woopee! I'll bet everyone will have more fun than a centipede at a foot tickling party! LLLOL! jclepine: I had asked for some pineapple mint & a poppy.If you can't get the poppy may I have some cherry bells? If you have enough I'll share some with a friend of mine. I'll be happy with any plants I can get. b2alicia: thanks.The more I keep up with these swaps the better I'll learn the "lingo" LOL. I have a small strawberry pot. It only has 2-3 side holes. I'll bring it with me so U can see it. Would anyone like some of those grayish egg cartons(the 18 count type)that come from walmart? I'll bring some with me.("will trade for fresh eggs"? 3-4 empty for 1 w/eggs?? Yeah right! LOL lattefairy:yeah for the mint & tansey! thanks! billie_ladybug: wow! you must have a big truck to be able to bring all of that stuff. I have my bins loaded for the manure & plenty of room for the pots. If you need help unloading your stuff I'll be glad to help. kvenkat:May I put dibs on a yellow eve primrose,persian spining primrose, morning glory/star yelta,& an apricot daisy? I think I left you off of my wish list. If I asked you this before just disreguard this. catnohat:WOW! I can't wait to see all my plants! Thanks! Well I better stop so I can get up early & head for the swap. I will be bringing: juice,pimento cheese,crackers,a cheese dip,chips & plates. I have several boxes I will bring to share if anyone needs one. Thats it(I think) goodnight all. See you in the AM ! %):>

Hi Fran - You mentioned: "The blooms where supposed to be for a double blue picotee and are about as far removed from double blue picotee as you can get. Since it is already known that the bloom is the result of an unknown MG cross, I want to know what the chances are of the seeds from this vine reverting back to original blooms from whatever it was crossed with, blooming even more different types of flowers or if it could or would stay stable with the bloom." Livingston Seed Company was marketing what they were calling a 'blue picotee' and the seeds in the packet were producing the exact bloom that you posted below... I got the same exact bloom that came out of a Livingston company seed packet...Livingston seed company can call their product whatever they want to,but I think the flower that you posted below has a name in Japanese Romaji,I just don't recall what it is...(!) The seeds of plants can easily get mislabeled unintentionally and as far as seeds from commercial suppliers these seeds often are labeled with the totally incorrect botanical name...the lack of consistency in labeling contributes to the perpetuation of mis-information... The people who don't give a hoot about how to do intentional crosses or how to prevent unintended crosses are unconcerned with accurate botanical identification...and that is okay...as people should be able to just simply grow whatever plants that they like,just enjoy the way the flowers look and continue along their merry way...all fine and dandy for that population of flower enthusiasts... BUT,for the people who are part of the ever increasing population of persons who are enjoying learning how to do intentional crosses in Morning Glories or to prevent unintentional crosses then the correct botanical identity does matter > alot...and as the majority of people who are becoming more deeply involved with MG's are continually learning that the fact of the matter is that most distributors,merchants,dealers and growers really do not know the correct botanical identity,nor in many cases do they really think that the correct botanical identity is significant...to sales related agendas... so most people think they know 'what' a morning glory is,but for fledgling breeders...most people really do not know how to tell an Ipomoea purpurea or an Ipomoea nil from an Ipomoea tricolor... Take a look in the Hortiplex at the various MG's and you will see some excellent examples of people simply not knowing what it is that they have as per being Botanically correct...this is fine for people who simply don't have any significant reason to care about Botanical accuracy,but it sure does contribute in a Major way to significant misinformation for those gardeners who are trying to figure out what it is that they actually have,so as to begin an accurate scientific approach to the subject of cross fertilization in Morning Glories... The Japanese have become so focused on 'cultivars' that they also loose sight of the accepted botanical identity and because there is a mis-conception that if a Japanese grower identified a plant by a botanical name that it must be so (e.g., Pharbitis nil)...guess again...the Japanese produce some outstanding crosses and true hybrids,but they often do not know what species they are working with and use nomenclature that is decades outdated by accepted International scientific Botanical Standards... even Kyushu University has plants posted that are blatantly not the correct species...even though they know which genes are responsible for the colors and patterns that they see...they are still subject to 'not seeing the Forest for the Trees'... You asked: "When those daylilies bloom from seed, you have no idea what the flower will look like and you can have many, many different flower blooms from seeds from the same parent daylily. So is it possible that you could have the same result with seeds from a crossed MG?" The simple answer is yes,but the likely answer is not likely... "Do you think that If I sowed say 10 seeds from one of these NO ID MG, I would get or could get all different flowers blooms or would they all turn out the same or any possible combo? And if they bloomed differently next year, do you think that would continue or would the bloom next year, if different, then become stable." The simple answer once again is that anything is possible...depending on the gene combinations that the plants are carrying...and an additional significant factor is if the plants will be selfed under strict controls or if the plants in question will in fact realistically be exposed to open pollination... The genotype can potentially carry many different genes,both dominant and recessive...but the dominant and recessive genes are very rarely completely Dominant or completely recessive...the reality is that the Dominance and recessive genes are relatively Dominant and relatively recessive...that is to say that a particular gene may be considered Dominant to a particular gene that is recessive to it...but the 'recessive' gene may be Dominant to another gene that is more recessive...particular combinations of MG genes can act differently than if they were not present in particular combinations... there are Modifier genes that can sometimes cause a Dominant gene to act like a recessive one...the genes (whether dominant and / or recessive ) can additionally be completely and / or incompletely expressed due to a combination of genetics and the nature of the multiple and specific enzymes that control and coordinate the expression of the genes... The modifier genes can act like genetic 'wildcards' and so anything (!) is possible... MG genetics can be complicated and that is why MG's are one of the most studied plants because of the complicated genetics and the incredible range of variations in the enzyme structures that control and modify the actions of the genes... Theoretically plants that you have with no definitive ID e.g., may be ID pending,atypical plants of more commonly known named types or they may be crosses of something,but in any case growing them out to see what they continue to display is the best way to know what they are as anything short of instant DNA analysis is guesswork... The NO'ID plants may actually be relatively stable as they already are, or the offspring may show variations in some characteristics...recessives may not show up in the phenotype until the 2nd generation if present in the genotype... The usual standard to see if a plant type is stable is 7 generations,but the usual concept of 'open pollinated stable' can be somewhat misleading because 'open pollinated' with exactly what (!?) else (?!) in the immediate environment... a type may be open pollinated stable if exposed to only several other pollen compatible types where it may have been originally 'stabilized' , but how many supposed open pollination stable Ipomoea purpureas are going to remain stable if exposed to the pollen of between 10 to 25 or more of other types of Ipomoea purpurea...(?)...the same is true of Ipomoea nil... the idea that a certain type is open pollination stable is conditional upon what other pollen compatible types the 'stable' type is exposed to...if any supposed type is exposed to the full force of perhaps 25 other pollen compatible types,then there may be no definitely truly open pollinated stable plants...except in the 'imagination'... Hope that helps... TTY,... Ron

· Posted by: hnwillis z8 SC (My Page) on Thu, Nov 29, 01 at 15:22 Ya'll gotta be some of the funniest people. After going through the ordeal of many a gardenia suicides, I decided it was time to plant them outside (great humidity and heat-Z8 SC). I hate to say this but two years ago I planted 2 gardenia plants on the northwest side of my house. They have been doing just fine. They are just at 2-3 feet tall. I have pruned them together this past sprng into a low hedge next to my white picket fence. I have planted the trimmings amongst a groundcover of Gerbera Daisies in a 24 inch plastic pot that I also planted a 10 ft crooked willow tree on the southside of my house. I also put some trimmings into small pots with cheap Wal-Mart garden soil. To my surprise, they have taken root and are growing like crazy. I put one particular cutting into a pot by itself to be able to bring in the house. I left it outside all spring and summer (it rained constantly when I first planted them). This one stayed in 5 inches of water/dirt for 2 months. I have brought the sole potted plant into my sunroom and placed it inside a miniture greenhouse. I doesn't seem to be growing like it did outside. I'm really thinking that it likes to be outdoors in humidity, heat and southern exposure. Go figure? So from 1 pruning of two plants I have successfully propagated 10+ little ones. I can't wait until they bloom. Also, the main idea for planting them outside is that my neighbor has a 10 ft tall, 7 ft wide "gardenia bush" that is heavenly when it blooms. I have taken pictures of it because people don't believe me. I know she doesn't do anything special to any of her plants. One thing we do have in common is acidic clay soil which our azaleas and camellias seem to thrive on. · Posted by: bedou z10 Ft. L. Fl (My Page) on Fri, Dec 7, 01 at 1:15 Its 1:09 in the morning. My laughter must have woken my husband up, so I suppose I should put the kettle on! From a nude plot of land in Ft. Lauderdale, I have tried to fill it up with fragrant choices. Yes, Gardenia included. Its yellow leaves tend to give me a good contrast against all those green ones that are flourishing. Alas, they tend to fall off, so I just use them as mulch where they land. Time to find something else! I certainly shall not spend time agonizing over it, from what you have all said. Oh well, I had such high hopes!!! Joanmary · Posted by: fpogoda 5 N NJ (My Page) on Mon, Dec 17, 01 at 12:21 Just wanted to be sure regarding the indoor gardenia temp. issue: is the optimum temperature 70 degrees during the day, then 55 degrees at night? Thanks · Posted by: yugoslava 6 ) on Sat, Dec 29, 01 at 20:56 I have been fairly successful with azaleas and rhododendrons and wonder if it would be possible to keep gardenia dormant over winter and bring it out in spring, plant it among rhodos and leave it until it gets cold. I have admired gardenias from afar for the longest time, but I knew indoor conditions in the winter were not the best, so I have never had one to call my own. Would it be possible to keep gardenia cool over winter as I do with my fig tree and brugmansia? The scent is absolutely intoxicating! One word about people who live in warm or coastal areas. You have no trouble growing tropical plants which we can only see when we take tropical vacations for which we have to pay dearly. I live in Great Lakes Region with short seasons but we all dream of exotic plants growing luxuriantly indoors. Which is why we fret and fuss endlessly. · Posted by: Jenn z9/19 SoCal (My Page) on Tue, Jan 8, 02 at 10:16 This has to be the funniest thread I've ever read at the GardenWeb. I laughed so hard I could hardly talk and had tears in my eyes!! I printed out the whole thread to share with other pour souls who have tried to grow Gardenias according to all the best recommendations, only to watch them wither away. We have a Gardenia growing on a slight slope in alkaline clay soil under a Japanese Black Pine tree. It gets mid-to-late sun. It gets watered whenever we run the lawn sprinklers. It isn't the most prolific plant we grow, but at least it's alive and produces some blooms for us each year. The success is probably due to the fact that my husband is the one who cares for it, and he is not a by-the-book gardener... he just waters whenever he thinks the lawn needs water, feeds it when he remembers (I think the last time was about 2 years ago), etc. LOL!!! · Posted by: Rosalie 5-6 salt lake (My Page) on Wed, Jan 9, 02 at 11:30 this thread is hilarious! and now famous -- a link to it is posted at the garden party forum, so some of us have wandered over to check out your battles -- i believe i will stick with xeric types -- no chicken dances for me -- thanks for the laughs! and good luck to all -- rosalie · Posted by: ccl38 8A Savannah, GA (My Page) on Thu, Jan 17, 02 at 15:59 I too have had trouble with vetchii. Mine was so large and so heavy with blooms I decided to prune it. We couldn't get past it down the walk. Once prunned it went into a decline and it has never been the same. I have another variety that I rooted about three years ago from a large bush growing at the edge of the swamp near where I work. It is mostly in shade, never gets watered and would probably measure 5 feet, and it has those huge saucer size blossoms and smells wonderful. I don't shake a chicken so I guess I must have held my mouth right when I planted it. They are my favorite plant. For me it is a pass along plant. I root them all summer and give them to anyone who comes along and wants one. · Posted by: Joanmary_z10 z10 Ft. L. Fl. (My Page) on Thu, Jan 17, 02 at 19:23 cc 138 you must have 'the magic touch'Well done, and I say that with honest envy. The question is, are you ready, willing and able to produce 75-+ rooted cuttings from a 'proven' specimen with the right karma, one for each of the above postings, to restore our faith in this plant and to bring aid and comfort to all of us who have been brought down by this picky, picky plant? lol!!! Joanmary · Posted by: Lily 5 IL (My Page) on Fri, Jan 18, 02 at 21:16 I got a Gardenia "Veitchii" last January as a gift, loaded with buds. Looking for culture info I found this thread. Aftering reading everyone's experience, I thought I was going to kill it for sure. I held my breath when I was anywhere near it. I misted it daily and then decided not to mist after my hard water left ugly mineral stains on the leaves. More then half of the buds dropped and it refused to bloom indoor! It got a lot of half yellowed leaves before I dragged it outside in late Spring. It thrived outside and bloomed! In the mean time I got hooked on orchids. I started using the leftover orchid water (rain water with 1/4 strenth of fertilizer and a drop of Superthrive/per gallon) to water the gardenia. It's been growing like crazy! Now it's back in the house in front of my south facing window, and in bloom! It's in a 12" plastic pot and about 2 feet tall. Maybe it's the rain water or the superthrive, but there is definitely hope for all gardenia lovers! · Posted by: Jenn z9/19 SoCal (My Page) on Sun, Jan 20, 02 at 13:40 So that's the trick... "water with leftover orchid water". Why don't the gardening books say that?!? LOL! · Posted by: Lali z9, 18, So Cal (My Page) on Mon, Jan 21, 02 at 15:16 I can't believe how long this topic has gone on for. It is sooo hilarious! Anyway, I'm trying my first attempt to grow gardenias. I put them in the backyard (northern exposure) with ferns and azaleas, so I'm hoping they will be ok. Now that I've read this post, I'm really really really skeptical that they will bloom or even live by my hand. Thanks for the laugh! Lali · Posted by: freesias Z9 ) on Tue, Feb 19, 02 at 23:35 Oh My GOD! I just planted THREE 1 gal. 'Veitchii' gardenias in my front yard mixed border. I have a feeling, my are gonna DIE on me. I am definitely not touching these guys! Will water once every couple of weeks. THAT'S IT!!!! · Posted by: susan_CA z9 CA ) on Sun, Feb 24, 02 at 16:05 What a great thread! Gardenia culture is such a thrill of success/agony of defeat experience. Anticipating an unknown failure rate, I bought 6 'Veitchii'! The two planted directly under a tree (where I wanted to sit) and northern foundation exposure died. The two planted in eastern foundation exposure with shade mid-day on bloom copiously all summer. The two planted in western foundation exposure, where light tree shade relieves afternoon heat after 4pm do almost as well. All get composted manure in early spring, pine needle mulch, half-strength chelated minerals whenever leaves begin to pale or MirAcid if I think of it, water from sprinkler system early a.m. (including on leaves) daily in summer in the hot, dry central valley, and have FAST drainage. The two that died were in locations with slower drainage and more shade. The only year I had some bud drop was the year we had a late, wet spring, but they bloomed fine all summer. I have seen specimens in full sun in the central valley; they bloom well, but leaves & blossoms show sunburn damage. So I'm going with the sun/shade, wet/dry, feed/not theory. · Posted by: jxnphx Zn9 AZ (My Page) on Fri, Mar 8, 02 at 0:42 Oh my, oh my! The woman at the nursery said I could have an indoor gardenia in my east-window-garden (morning sun, high level of light the rest of the day), but it sounds like she forgot to tell me I'd need to install a swamp for it, as well. I certainly have plenty of heat for it, here on the low desert. I may be joining the ranks of the guilty gardenia group: I'm not likely to "mist" the miserable thing, nor am I likely to change my habits in on-going care (I am sadly irregular about watering and feeding my only other plant--a low-maintenance Madagascar Palm--dracena). I prepared the soil well enough though (a standard potting soil mixed with half-again as much peat moss), I placed the plant "high" in the middle of the pot, added a layer of peat moss on the top, and covered it all with some additional organic mulch, watered it in with an "acid" feeding, and set it above a large, relatively deep saucer with plenty of water for evaporation. I may have misunderstood the nursery lady's comment about the roots, though, because I removed a great deal of the soil from the root ball and treated the roots with hormone before placing it in the new pot and soil mix. I read in the messages above that this plant may not have liked that messing about with its roots. I believe I'll acquire one of those devices that gives a reading of the humidity, to see just how dry my window garden area really is. We'll see what happens. While I may be capable of sustaining this thing's life for a short while, after reading all of this, I'm not planning on much success with it. I tend to move on to other projects, and I'm afraid the poor thing will have to shift for itself more than it is constitutionally capable. Of course, reading about the success of those who largely ignored their gardenia gives me some hope. That's more my style. At least I have a good excuse for turning the AC down to 70 starting in April. I just don't think the local power usage police are going to understand it when I tell them that my astronomical power draw is necessary for the health of a plant. This is going to be expensive emotionally and monetarily. Who would have thought a trip to the nursery would result in such bondage? · Posted by: Joanmary_z10 z10 Ft. L. Fl. (My Page) on Fri, Mar 8, 02 at 13:16 Oh, what a wonderful laugh this has been! My poor old gardenia is there in Florida, with no one to care for it, depending on the sprinkler system to 'do its thing' and I have no clue what is happening to it. However I have my dark moments when I can see the Christmas lights decorating its bare twigs come December! Taking it that I will be using its twigs as mulch sometime soon, I have bought as a replacement, the African Gardenia. Now I wonder if this is in the same category? Here's to Gardenias who can take neglect!! · Posted by: jxnphx Zn9 AZ (My Page) on Sat, Mar 9, 02 at 15:31 I discussed my newly acquired gardenia issue with my elder sister who, smirking, told me it would probably do me good to have something to worry about. I can only think she was being complimentary about my faultless children and long-ago departed harpy of a wife. She herself has a half-dozen off-spring who provide her with plenty of heart-rending despair. Just in case she was being a smart-ass though, I bought my plant an ultrasonic humidifier which pumps 2.6 gallons of water vapor into the air each day, and I hurried to the used book store and increased my holdings in James Lee Burke (setting: southern Louisiana). I suppose I could have picked up some Faulker, as well, but he's so damned hard to read. I can't stand Tennessee Williams. I am thinking that a few dark and decadent thought-waves might make the gardenia feel a little more at home here in the bright, parched protestant desert southwest. Although it's only been a couple of days, I'm sure it's looking a little better than when I brought it home from the nursery; but just the same, I'm going to keep my eye on a new leaf that is looking a little yellowish. I don't want my dear sister to have the last laugh. · Posted by: BarbC coastal SC (My Page) on Fri, Apr 12, 02 at 15:53 LOL - I have tears rolling down my face and flooding the den. I have 2 unknown variety gardenias that I bought at HD 4 years ago. Since then, I have done ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to them and yet they thrive. They survived the great flood of '99 (were under 6 FEET of nasty swamp/river water and were still green 3 months later when the water finally went away) They were only 1ft tall at the time, so literally had 5ft of nasty black water on top of them. I even had to pick dried toilet paper off them, as the flood had taken the contents of 1000 septic tanks along its path. Those two gardenias and the roses were the only plants to survive that mess. Anyway, once I could finally walk through my yard again (without sinking up to my eyeballs in slimy mud) I dug those suckers up and moved them to my new (dry) house (roses too). They are still there and doing beautifully in full southern afternoon sun. I do ABSOLUTELY NOTHING special to them. I don't even ater then during droughts. Maybe that's the secret? The guy across the street has a couple and he also does ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to his and his are even nicer than mine. Perhaps we are killing these plants with kindness? Maybe what they really want is to just be left alone?