Hi Fran,
I don't know about MG's but have cross pollinated passion vines and brugmansias. I've had several different flowers from seed taken from the same fruit/seed pod. The blooms on the passies have remained the same as the first blooms. With some of my brugmansia crosses each flush has had different blooms (color & shape). On one plant the flower has yet to become stable and this is the second season of blooms.
Karyn

Fran, could you post pics of them? I'd love to see them.

~Susan

I grow many different types of MG's and I always get the same from the seeds I collect. I think its different from daylillys.
For example, one year I grew only Heavenly Blue MG's, collected those seeds and the next year got Heavenly Blue's again.

Debraq,

I don't think you understood the question I am asking Ron.

I was not referring to growing seeds from named varieties, either self collected from ones growing in your yard or from commercial packets of seeds.

I was talking about an MG vine producing flowers that are some kind of a cross of some other MG vines and not named.

The blooms where supposed to be for a double blue picotee and are about as far removed from double blue picotee as you can get.

Since it is already known that the bloom is the result of an unknown MG cross, I want to know what the chances are of the seeds from this vine reverting back to original blooms from whatever it was crossed with, blooming even more different types of flowers or if it could or would stay stable with the bloom.

Over the weekend I will post pics of all the various MG that I have growing now.

Here is a pic of the MG cross in question.

Fran

bloom early morning around 8:30AM and the color is an accurate color and flower is about 4 inches in size
{{gwi:424827}}

bloom around noon, starting to turn to a lavender shade
{{gwi:417110}}

still open around 3:30 pm and fully lavender and it's bright pink throat has blended into the flower
{{gwi:424873}}

Hi Fran -

You mentioned:

"The blooms where supposed to be for a double blue picotee and are about as far removed from double blue picotee as you can get.

Since it is already known that the bloom is the result of an unknown MG cross, I want to know what the chances are of the seeds from this vine reverting back to original blooms from whatever it was crossed with, blooming even more different types of flowers or if it could or would stay stable with the bloom."

Livingston Seed Company was marketing what they were calling a 'blue picotee' and the seeds in the packet were producing the exact bloom that you posted below...
I got the same exact bloom that came out of a Livingston company seed packet...Livingston seed company can call their product whatever they want to,but

I think the flower that you posted below has a name in Japanese Romaji,I just don't recall what it is...(!)

The seeds of plants can easily get mislabeled unintentionally and as far as seeds from commercial suppliers these seeds often are labeled with the totally incorrect botanical name...the lack of consistency in labeling contributes to the perpetuation of mis-information...

The people who don't give a hoot about how to do intentional crosses or how to prevent unintended crosses are unconcerned with accurate botanical identification...and that is okay...as people should be able to just simply grow whatever plants that they like,just enjoy the way the flowers look and continue along their merry way...all fine and dandy for that population of flower enthusiasts...
BUT,for the people who are part of the ever increasing population of persons who are enjoying learning how to do intentional crosses in Morning Glories or to prevent unintentional crosses then the correct botanical identity does matter > alot...and as the majority of people who are becoming more deeply involved with MG's are continually learning that the fact of the matter is that most distributors,merchants,dealers and growers really do not know the correct botanical identity,nor in many cases do they really think that the correct botanical identity is significant...to sales related agendas...
so most people think they know 'what' a morning glory is,but for fledgling breeders...most people really do not know how to tell an Ipomoea purpurea or an Ipomoea nil from an Ipomoea tricolor...

Take a look in the Hortiplex at the various MG's and you will see some excellent examples of people simply not knowing what it is that they have as per being Botanically correct...this is fine for people who simply don't have any significant reason to care about Botanical accuracy,but it sure does contribute in a Major way to significant misinformation for those gardeners who are trying to figure out what it is that they actually have,so as to begin an accurate scientific approach to the subject of cross fertilization in Morning Glories...

The Japanese have become so focused on 'cultivars' that they also loose sight of the accepted botanical identity and because there is a mis-conception that if a Japanese grower identified a plant by a botanical name that it must be so (e.g., Pharbitis nil)...guess again...the Japanese produce some outstanding crosses and true hybrids,but they often do not know what species they are working with and use nomenclature that is decades outdated by accepted International scientific Botanical Standards...
even Kyushu University has plants posted that are blatantly not the correct species...even though they know which genes are responsible for the colors and patterns that they see...they are still subject to 'not seeing the Forest for the Trees'...

You asked:

"When those daylilies bloom from seed, you have no idea what the flower will look like and you can have many, many different flower blooms from seeds from the same parent daylily.

So is it possible that you could have the same result with seeds from a crossed MG?"

The simple answer is yes,but the likely answer is not likely...

"Do you think that If I sowed say 10 seeds from one of these NO ID MG, I would get or could get all different flowers blooms or would they all turn out the same or any possible combo?

And if they bloomed differently next year, do you think that would continue or would the bloom next year, if different, then become stable."

The simple answer once again is that anything is possible...depending on the gene combinations that the plants are carrying...and an additional significant factor is if the plants will be selfed under strict controls or if the plants in question will in fact realistically be exposed to open pollination...

The genotype can potentially carry many different genes,both dominant and recessive...but the dominant and recessive genes are very rarely completely Dominant or completely recessive...the reality is that the Dominance and recessive genes are relatively Dominant and relatively recessive...that is to say that a particular gene may be considered Dominant to a particular gene that is recessive to it...but the 'recessive' gene may be Dominant to another gene that is more recessive...particular combinations of MG genes can act differently than if they were not present in particular combinations...
there are Modifier genes that can sometimes cause a Dominant gene to act like a recessive one...the genes (whether dominant and / or recessive ) can additionally be completely and / or incompletely expressed due to a combination of genetics and the nature of the multiple and specific enzymes that control and coordinate the expression of the genes...

The modifier genes can act like genetic 'wildcards' and so anything (!) is possible...

MG genetics can be complicated and that is why MG's are one of the most studied plants because of the complicated genetics and the incredible range of variations in the enzyme structures that control and modify the actions of the genes...

Theoretically plants that you have with no definitive ID e.g., may be ID pending,atypical plants of more commonly known named types or they may be crosses of something,but in any case growing them out to see what they continue to display is the best way to know what they are as anything short of instant DNA analysis is guesswork...

The NO'ID plants may actually be relatively stable as they already are, or the offspring may show variations in some characteristics...recessives may not show up in the phenotype until the 2nd generation if present in the genotype...

The usual standard to see if a plant type is stable is 7 generations,but the usual concept of 'open pollinated stable' can be somewhat misleading because 'open pollinated' with exactly what (!?) else (?!) in the immediate environment...
a type may be open pollinated stable if exposed to only several other pollen compatible types where it may have been originally 'stabilized' , but how many supposed open pollination stable Ipomoea purpureas are going to remain stable if exposed to the pollen of between 10 to 25 or more of other types of Ipomoea purpurea...(?)...the same is true of Ipomoea nil...
the idea that a certain type is open pollination stable is conditional upon what other pollen compatible types the 'stable' type is exposed to...if any supposed type is exposed to the full force of perhaps 25 other pollen compatible types,then there may be no definitely truly open pollinated stable plants...except in the 'imagination'...

Hope that helps...

TTY,...

Ron

Ron,

Thanks for your detailed answer to my question. It explains a lot of things to me.

I'm not surprised that there is so much confusion about MG and so many problems in trying to keep the information correct.

When the mix of people involved is botanists, commercial growers for seed companies ie. big business, the amateur gardener and then those that are trying to really cross different MG themselves, Life gets to confusing and you end up with who knows what.

It's to bad that even the Japanese have gotten into the middle of the mixed up pot of stew in creating the havoc. that is where I would have expected things to be done correctly.

"I think the flower that you posted below has a name in Japanese Romaji,I just don't recall what it is...(!)"
Don't worry about not remembering the name of this MG. It will come to you at some point in time and then you can tell me.

In the mean time, that vine is loaded with pods on it and hopefully I will have ripe seeds to grow out next year. Who knows what it will be, as the vines are truly open pollinated for sure.
It will be interesting to see what does bloom next year from the seeds, and I am really glad that it didn't turn out to be double blue picotee, but rather the one that it did.

I am planning to collect the seeds from the NOID ones, sow them next year and plant them as individual vines, not together. Then I will be able to determine what does bloom from each one and what doesn't.

Who knows, I may end up with a "real" brand new MG of some kind and maybe not.

Sometimes, a seed packet labeled to be one kind of MG and turns out to be another is a good thing, sometimes not.

I just don't appreciate being ripped off by the commercial seed companies when they decide to play games with the seeds and the names and suck you into buying what you think is new and all it is, is either a new name for some old variety, or they out right put the wrong seeds in the package or just plain don't know what they are doing and don't care.

On the other hand, I did get my real blue star that I've been trying to get for several years out of the Burpee package of seeds that where supposed to be a white with dark blue stripes in it.

My heavenly blue seeds turned out to be that beautiful bright blue bloom and not the typical darker blue that I've been seeing for several years,

And the flying saucer are real flying saucer, not a mix of pearly gates, wedding bells, darker blue heavenly blue and no flying saucer.

And the best part of these is that they are full of blooms and seeds too, so hopefully I will be growing the bright blue heavenly blue, flying saucer and the real blue star for a long, long time now.

Thanks again Ron and I don't know what any of us would do without all your knowledge on MG and the information that you provide.

I only wish you had some control over the weather too. It has not been a good growing season here this year at all.
I still have at least 15 vines that have not bloomed and just beginning to set some buds.

Fran

Hi Fran - Thanks for voicing your appreciation...

For weather control specialists,you need to check out the
HAARP
http://www.haarp.net/

Depending on the funding source of the paycheck,a scientist may or may not cite HAARP as being The Cause of Major Weather Changes including increased intensity of Tropical Storms...

I happen to respect Dr.Nick Begich's investigations into systems that are having a severe impact on the Environment...

TTY,...

Ron

Here is a link that might be useful: HAARP - High Frequency Active Auroral Research Program

Hi Ron,

I've been a lurker for a long time and have very much enjoyed enjoyed your postings...and WHEW !!!...like it or not you are the one who provides the answers that I can't seem to locate anywhere else!

I was wondering if you would care to comment on someone's take on what constitutes a real japanese morning glory and the related topic of open and cross pollination.

Does the person really know as much as purported about 'japanese morning glories' or is the rap more likely to be an over-reactive 'sales pitch' for the cheaper products offered...re-sellers can become very 'obsessed' with sales image and competition,so that it is difficult to know if their advertisement raps are truly objective and legitimate or just another misleading marketing con job.

Is gaby actually gabbing out of her exhaust pipe ? or what ?

The strong contradictory implications are:

1) this statement proclaims to know how to determine a 'real' JMG from a 'fake' JMG...and is apparently a devoted advocate for discriminating collectors

2) apparently someone who purports to really know how to tell the differences

3) buying cheap seeds will yield flowers like those the grower has depicted,so why bother with the real Japanese Morning Glories...?

4) advocates that being 'mixed up' will yield the fantastic results that this grower will attest to.

5) this particular advocate claims to have 'real' knowledge (not the pretend kind of knowledge) regarding Japanese Morning Glories, by sharing insight into the pretend kind of knowledge.

Do you think the assessment offered is at all accurate ?

Why or why not ?

Thanks in advance for your comments and be assured that your sincere devotion,insights and genuine consumer advocacy on this subject are obviously widely recognized and very much appreciated by all of us gardeners.

Eyes

http://reviews.ebay.com/Don-apos-t-be-fooled-when-you-buy-Japanese-Morning-Glories_W0QQugidZ10000000004755806

Here is a link that might be useful: Turtlebaby's exposition: constituents of real and fake Japanese Morning Glories

Hello Eyes and welcome to the forum.

I'm not Ron, but I've learned so much from him and his guidance over the past several years.

I'll take a stab at this one and Ron, please, please, please correct me if I've said anything that is wrong.

I've never purchased seeds from Turtleababy on Ebay, but I have purchased Japanese Morning glory seeds from 3 ebay sellers, that I won't mention here, but have been more than satisfied with the purchases, all have come true to seed the first year of bloom, and most of them have stayed true or they have a bit of variation in the bloom that can be attributed to several different things.
Those being,
the original seeds came from a different climate and zone than I live in and that can affect the bloom.

The blooms where later in the season and the temps and sunlight can affect the size and bloom color.

The seeds I collected from the original blooms where cross pollinated with other MG in my gardens.

No on to the questions you asked about the specific claims from the above mentioned ebay seller turtebaby.

Some of what she says is accurate, and accurate for any plant that blooms in any garden.

Any seed collected that is labeled "open pollinated" can be crossed pollinated with another plant of the same type.

Zinnias are known for cross pollinating and coming up with all kinds of various types of blooms the next year. The seeds collected from them can be a crap shoot as to what you get.
If you plant zinnias as my grandmother did, tons of different kinds all in the same bed, you can come up with some amazing blooms the following year, but none of them where ever stable when the seeds from those amazing blooms where grown the following year.

Most times, my own plants have always come true to seed the following year, no matter how close they have been planted to each other. On the other hand I have a cosmos that is a cross of something and I've not been able to figure out what it crossed with, but it was a stable seed the following year and has been for 5 years now.

I have a dahlia growing from seed this year that is nothing like it's original parent plant, it's still very pretty and I like it, but not happy that it isn't what it was last year. I'll be interested in seeing what it blooms next year.

And I also have a morning glory that is growing and blooming for me for the 2nd year as a stable bloom, but it is not what it was supposed to be and it didn't bloom anything like it was supposed to bloom the first year either. Not only that, it didn't bloom the same last year, but is blooming the same as last year, this year.

As for hybrid seeds, well some hybrids are very stable and have been sowed enough to obtain the stable blooms and keep repeating them, but I have seen those "so called stable hybrids" revert back to something in the original part of the hybrid process.

It also is true that morning glory blooms can cross with others of the same type, i,e. I nil with I nil, and create something new. It could stay stable and it could revert back to it's original parent plant.
It is also possible to put a couple of different I, nil. morning glory on a trellis or arbor and let them intertwine and they might cross with each other and bloom something different the next year. At least some of the seeds could, but I don't know what the percentage is of chance of it happening.
I'm sure Ron would know.

It is also true that if the seller says "open pollinated" and/or "from my own gardens" that they could be cross pollinated, but as I said, I have bought from 3 very specific ebay sellers and they have been fine.

As a matter of fact one of them is known for creating new morning glory and stabilizing them before she sells them on e-bay.

many of my japanese morning glory seeds have come from here and they bloom correctly, year after year.

On the other hand, I have my infamous "blue silk" morning glory that has been blooming blue, just like it's supposed to for the past 4 years. That is until this year. Now it is blooming a pink silk, and a lavender silk.

Ron explained about that in another thread.

Personally, I think this ebay seller was trying to make people aware of the possibility of cross pollination from open pollinated flowers whose seeds are collected and sold as Japanese morning glory. They may or may not bloom as pictured.

On the other hand, she also was advising people to run the other way with money for morning glory seeds if the sale states 'open pollinated and/or from my own gardens". That could be seen as a push for her sales instead of others.

The only true way, IMHO, to get "real Japanese morning glory seeds" is to buy directly from Japan or from someone who is selling Japanese morning glory seeds in their original packages from Japan. And then, can you be sure that they where not from a garden that was open pollinated? I don't know.

So, I think she made some valid points, but also did a very subtle push to buy her seeds as well, because she is safe and "claims to be a serious seed seller" and would not rip off the customer, and does say that others claiming to have
Japanese morning glory seeds for sale are selling open pollinated and robbing you of your money.

Ron, please add to the info and correct me where I have made any mistakes.

Fran

Hi,
I think some of what she said is a bit off, but in the following whole statement I think she is correct.

"I urge everybody to read item descriptions carefully before spending $10 or more for a few allegedly Japanese Morning Glories. If you read something about 'open pollinated' or 'from my own yard', keep your money and hit the back button. If you don't find any info on how they have been pollinated, ask the seller, before you buy."

She is saying don't spend lots of money on seeds that can't be verified as going to come true. I've seen MG seeds for sale where just a few are offered for a ridiculous amount of money. You shouldn't be paying top dollar to someone who may have a ton of different vines growing together upping the chances of cross pollination hoping to make big bucks on ebay. There are some really great ebay sellers and there are some really bad sellers. I've seen people selling seeds or plants with crazy prices or obsurd claims. It is also difficult to know if someone is a bad seed seller. Someone could have a great rating since they deliver the seeds, but how well the seeds germinated and if they came true happen so far after. So there is no real guarantee to what you are getting.
Also I remember on the WSing forum once someone linked to some ebay stuff with lots of descriptions boldly claiming things like RARE! and I posted back laughing because most of the stuff I have in my garden. Unusual maybe, rare no. I would always click the back button on a site full of exaggerated claims.

I did check turtlebaby's ebay offerings. Some of those prices are pretty steep to me! Plus lots of them can be acquired for postage over on the exchange forum. : )
Remy

Thanks for the questions...

I would agree with most of what Fran offered and where I may have a different point of view based upon my experience will be addressed in the thread that I posted...

The recommendation that any enthusiast should immediately click away from any merchant who states openly and honestly that the plants are open pollinated is bad advice because (in the above cited instance)it is a self-serving over-generalization and there are most definitely reputable merchants who have relatively high quality seeds that are the result of open pollination...

The interested Morning Glory buyer is more likely to find out who is a knowledgeable and reputable merchant by checking in at the Forums where there are people who have demonstrated a significant history of being knowledgeable about Morning Glories...and possibly privately emailing selected members)

I have decided to share more on the topic in the thread linked to below...

Keep the Faith...

Ron

Here is a link that might be useful: What is a Real Japanese Morning Glory and related aspects

Hi Ron,
I am so glad that I presented information that you mostly agree with. You are a good teacher and I appreciated all the information that you have posted and the answers to so many questions.

I have read the post that Ron linked in his post above and want to correct something that I said in my post. Thank you Ron for posting the correct info in the other thread.

You are not getting a better quality or chance of seeds from a commercial packet of seeds directly from Japan.
I made that assumption, and being a mother, should have known better. Those of us that are mothers know better than to assume anything.

Thanks again for the correction and the info.

If anyone wants to e-mail me through GW for the names of the sellers that I have been buying seeds from on e-bay and would highly recommend them, just e-mail me.

I will be glad to vouch for the 3 ebay sellers, their quality of seeds, and the germination consistency as well as the fact that their seeds have always come true to the pictures that they post.

And yes, their MG are open pollinated as well.

Fran