More hugs from me, I lost my two old girls within a year of each other so I know how you feel. I know we did the right thing for them but I still miss them. Eventually the day will come when I'll head back to the SPCA for one, maybe two more girls :o). We still have Basil but he has decided he's DH's buddy, mind you that doesn't stop him from ordering me around. We are still trying to make an inside kitty out of Basil, he's spending more and more time inside but when or if I get the girls they will definitely be inside kitties with supervised outdoor privileges. Annette

Mazer, thanks for all the ideas. I do clean up the poop everyday, but it's amazing how much 3 can make in a day and by the end of the day the flies are swarming. I think you've answered a question, but I will ask for clarification. If I put their poop where I want them to go, they will realize that's where they should go? I was afraid it would turn them off to that space because it already smells. I put two wheelbarrows of nice soft shredded mulch under a tree that is 30 feet from the patio to give them a place to go that is still close by. I even take them there every morning, but they just run away, not interested. I think I will try your idea of using the litter box and gradually dragging it in that direction. Our shelters are way overflowing with cats. On the forms I checked the box that said "outside" and no one said that was not ok. In a city it would be very hard on an outside cat, but my last cats lived 15 years here in the country, so it can't be too hard on them. (I am bringing them in at night until they are bigger.) They will all be spayed/neutered. At the shelter I had to pay for it up front when adopting them. They give me a certificate for the vet, and I will be refunded the money after the vet signs off. A great idea as far as I'm concerned. There are already too many unwanted cats and I don't need to bring any more into the world. Thanks for the ideas. Still interested in any more people have.

It's good there's no hissing/growling or seriously nasty behaviour from the kitten. Give it a bit of time, and they'll work it out among themselves. Yes, give him a time-out if he acts too crazy; I sometimes throw a small cushion just to distract the resident hooligan Jas-purr when he gets Coco's neck in his jaws n she screams as if she's dying LOL Two of our older cats are OK with the kittens; Nikita (who wud dive under the duvet whenever she saw a new kitten around) now mostly ignores them/hisses at them/sometimes bathes them; Max (17lb) plays with them, then sits on them, but they're 6 months old now and can get away from him, and we know he means no harm. Now Simba **sigh** - I hate to see him looking for new places to hide from the terrors - he growls, hisses, swats at them all the time. And now that they're all grown up, these two don't think twice about jumping on his back as he passes under the chair on which they lie in wait. If they bother him too much, I give them a time-out for 10 mins. But these days they're getting to know the routine so well that the minute I clap and say OK guys, time-out! they actually run to their room, heads held high and tails swishing - probably thinking oh yeah, the mad witch just has to spoil the fun LOL Plasticgarden, how did you help your cat get used to the kitten eventually? Simba doesn't hiss/growl/swat at us, only at the lil ones, and I don't like it that he can't be at peace with these guys around. Feliway worked for a while, but didn't calm him down enough to stop hissing and growling.

Larsi- In all honesty, I notice little difference. I do have mechanically softened water, and I measure my detergent by Tablespoons. I almost always use the extra rinse, anyway. I do love a splashy rinse, though, just for fun! I have not found that the rinse levels are terribly low. I am not sure if your Miele does this, but on mine, the first 5-10 mins of the cycle are monitored for water intake and the time it takes between top ups. It uses that to judge the size and weight of the load. After that, wash times, and rinses are adjusted by size of load. My rinse water levels are based on that sensing. Full loads get a medium rinse level, just up to the edge of the boot. Smaller loads have some what less, but not as little as the main wash. I have seen it do a high level rinse on a really large load of towels. Cottons cycles have a pretty good, hard spin between rinses, which helps rinsing dramatically. Water is becoming more expensive here, and I just got a teenager added to the household, so I wanted to try to cut back on the rinses to save some water. So far, so good.