Oh, you bring back the experience I had when I bought my first car, a real clunker. It was two tone brown, one of those colors being rust. The front seat rocked because the front bolts holding the seat to the floor of the car had rusted out and I could see the street through those holes.

I bought the car so that I could student teach at the new high school on the edge of town where the bus did not run. I was assigned a real bear of a master teacher. Everyone at the university was afraid of him. So, I headed out for the introductory interview, dressed in nylons, flats, and a nice skirt and sweater one fine, slushy winter day.

When I drove on the cloverleaf exit from the freeway, my driver's door would fly open if I did not hold it with my right hand, my left doing the steering. I arrived, and, walking into the school, looked down to see black, oily slush had splashed up through the holes in the floor all over my legs. I headed into the women's wash room first to scrub my legs with a soapy wad of paper towels. Properly presentable, I went to meet the man who would be a very good master teacher for me.

These days I drive a AWD vehicle, I had two 4 wheel drive SUV's prior. but I tend to just stay home when the weather is bad. Back when I did work I usually had rear wheel drive or FWD cars and never had a problem getting where I needed to be. Oh course as I get older, I get more chicken and play it safe.

I like your story Sheilajoyce! Hope you have a new car by now. lol

I lived in PA for 13 years. I had to go up and down a road that was like a roller coaster and I lived there in the early 70's to mid 80's. The first 10 years we had pretty bad weather.....big snows. Most of that time I had just a regular station wagon, and then when front wheel drive came out I had that. I managed to get up and down the hills but it was scary. Then I got a jeep. I could go anywhere after that. I've had 4-wheel drive ever since. I don't live in a snow belt area but I still like the 4 wheel for those times when I need it. I like the security. I would recommend sticking with the 4-wheel in your situation. As for what to do win your present situation, bear in mind that if you put the money into your present car, with a Toyota, you probably have another 100,000 to 150,00 miles to go.

I have a FWD Nissan Sentra. I love it and it handles well in snow and ice. For the 3 years before I got it I had a 1/2 ton pickup with sand bags in the back for some traction in the winter. It was pretty scary driving my truck in snow and on ice.

My winter driver is a 1998 Jeep Cherokee with 4 wheel drive, 4.0 L 6-cylinder engine, 190 hp. It can't be beat for snow. However, if you are shopping for a used one, keep in mind that these came with more than one style of 4-wheel drive.

The most simple one has no center differential, i.e., the front and back drive shafts are driven at the same speed. This one should not be engaged on surfaces where the wheels can get a good grip; Only good for slippery conditions like mud and snow. When turning, the front wheels take a longer path than the rear ones, thus, the front axle needs to turn faster than the rear one. With wheels on dry surfaces and without a center differential, severe drive line stresses result when turning and handling is awful; mishaps may occur in a turn. Drive parts can be broken.

A second version has a center differential. (A center differentail allows the front and rear drive shafts to turn at different speeds as needed. Equal torque is applied to both drive shafts. Therefore, slippage on any wheel reduces torque on the other three except that the torque on the other 3 will be a bit more than the slipping wheel due to drive line friction.)

There may be more than one version with a center differential. I don't have my official repair manual handy, but that information is not critical to this discussion.

I have the version with 4 modes of configuration:

1. Rear wheel drive alone.
2. 4-wheel with center differential locked (Part Time)
3. 4-wheel with center differential active (Full Time)
4. Center diffential locked and gear reduction such that the output rotation is about 40% of input rotation. (Rarely ever used)

I do not recommend the most simple one for most drivers and most conditions. Its only good for special cases.

I highly recommend a version with the center differential.
Note that Jeep calls the mode with locked center differential "Part Time", and the mode with the center differential active as "Full Time". The vehicle can be driven at highway speeds in full-time mode and can be left in that mode for much of the winter. However, the drive line is a little quieter with 4-wheel mode disengaged and there is a minor increase in fuel mileage. The mileage change is very little since all the drive shafts turn all the time anyway. There is slightly less friction loss in the transfer case.

4-wheel drive on Jeeps do have added maintence for the transfer case and front drive line parts. The transmission and regular rear drive line parts are well developed and have long lives. The major repair items are U-joints. On older style jeeps with 'solid' front axle assembly, the high maintence items are the universal joints; There are 4 of these: 2 on the front drive shaft and a u-joint at each front wheel. The front wheel joints typically last 3 to 4 years when exposed to road salts. The required labor to replace these is substantial and there is a hazard of damaging the differential seals when the front axle is reassemblied. The last time mine were replaced, a new type of joint was used. It was a CV type with a boot enclosing the joint. This one has given a long service life.

The driveline parts on later model Jeeps were changed to swing axles.

The other added maintence item is the transfer case. The lubricant level should be checked periodically and topped off as needed. This unitt on my Jeeps has been reliable. My experience shows the output shaft seal is the most likely failure item.

The question becomes do you need 4x4 drive for winter. In my opinion: it is a great option. I have a Dodge Stratus FWD and that was just ok last winter. My wife drove it in all kinds of conditions, but did not get caught out in really severe winter storms. I bought a Honda CR-V last summer that was FWD only. It was garaged for the winter, but is my opinion that it needs AWD for winter. This is based on what happens on rain wetter streets. The front wheels spin to easily when pulling away from stop lights, and I have to be careful about applying power in turns on wet streets. Some of this is due to a high center of gravity causing the inside wheel to become unloaded in a turn and some of it may be weight distribution. I find that the CR-V is not as secure as the Stratus or Jeep in wet weather. I would expect it to worsen in snow. I plan to change the tires to ones having a better traction rating.

My recommendation for ice and snow is a good 4-wheel drive even after considering the extra weight, cost, and maintence.

I don't do much winter driving these days but I have a Hummer and absolutely love it, so I definitely could go pretty much anywhere in it. Back in the days when we lived in Denver we had Jeeps.

I drive an AWD Subaru Forester all year and love it - it's safe and goes in almost any weather and holds the road well.

I drive a 1997 GEO Tracker (built by Suzuki), and put it in 4-wheel drive on snow days. It's a small SUV and light enough to handle, but that 4-wheel is great in deep snow.
Has 96,000 miles on it, and runs like a top. Cargo area is large and square - have transported a picnic table and small sofa with no problem. Great for groceries.

I wouldn't recommend a Chevy Tracker today because it is a GM built car today....but if I get another car, it will be a Suzuki SUV.

I have a small Saturn, the one with the 3rd door. I haven't had any trouble so far. It's front wheel drive. We also have a Jeep Grand Cherokee. You can go anywhere in a Jeep.

Years ago, we had a little 4-door Subaru. It was an automatic on the floor. On the side of the shifter was a red button you could push and you would be in 4 wheel drive. Push it again and it was back to front wheel drive. We drove that car into the ground.

I wish more auto manufacturers would make cars like that. Front wheel drive, and just a button to put it in and out of 4 wheel. I don't understand why they don't.

Our 2005 Jaguar X-Type has AWD. Great in snow and on ice, but we are in a suburb, not driving country roads. I will be looking for AWD on any future car anyway.

I don't have winter issues, nor do I drive anymore but your floor rusting story reminds me of my Toyota. I had a 1975 Toyota Corolla that had a rusted through floor in the front passenger area. I got many years out of it by putting a metal cookie sheet under the floor mat! My kids were mortified! The oldest two learned to drive with it and my younger son was driving it when the oil pump went out and he kept driving until it quit! It was a wonderful winter car that drove through lots of snow in Michigan! The best part was that it only cost $3,000 new!

As for what to do win your present situation, bear in mind that if you put the money into your present car, with a Toyota, you probably have another 100,000 to 150,00 miles to go.

If I knew that for sure, I'd go for the repair. But if I spend over $4,000 to have the rear differential replaced there's no guarantee something else under there won't rot out soon. There's that much rust under there. My local mechanics have indicated that I'd be throwing my money away. I'm still undecided, though. I think we need another opinion.

Sheilajoyce's story reminds me of the Fiat Spyder convertible I had for a few years in my twenties. When I could see the road underneath my feet we decided it was time for it to go. ;-)

Jemdandy, you are a born teacher! I always learn something from you. I've had three Jeeps, and liked them all. I must say the AWD is more convenient, although I probably pay for the convenience in gas mileage.

Reading these replies, I'm becoming convinced I should pass on the front-wheel drive option.

Thanks!

Susan - I had a Fiat 124 Spyder too. It was white with red leather interior. It was our first fun car - obviously pre-kids . I think we bought it new in 1973 or 74. I don't have a photo but I found one on the Italian Wikipedia page.

I have such fond memories of driving in late fall along River Road in Bucks Couty, PA with the top down, the heater on and a red plaid throw from Scotland on my lap. We were young, recently married and loved exploring the countryside around our new home with the top down. Translation: young, broke, living in an apartment we shared with roaches in Philly and leaving town every chance we got.

Here is a link that might be useful: Fiat

Ah, something else we have in common, Maire! Yours was probably a lot younger than mine. We had just moved out of Manhattan in 1969, to a house in Bergen County, NJ, and bought the Fiat from Foreign Cars of Rockland across the river in Rockland County, NY. I think it was two years old.

Our winters are really, really mild....so we still drive our 2002 Buick Rendevous.
I don''t like snow or cold weather so we don't travel in the winter, either.

I don't know where you live but there are lots of things to think about when buying a new or used vehicle. If you plan to hold on to it for a long time, a new vehicle may be the way to go. Granted there is a large depreciation in the early years but you should ONLY be concerned about that if you're getting rid of it soon. Research and test drive new models to find out what you like and then buy it. If you buy used, you don't know what you're getting and there is little to no warranty. Yeah you could have it checked out by your local mechanic but they won't be able to tell you things like how often the salt was cleaned out of the undercarriage, how often the oil was changed (unless you get the records, which nobody keeps) or what kind of gas was put in it. Rust is something you can't totally control but if you live in a rust prone area, you have to account for that.

Jemdandy's correct about the various types of 4WD but let me chime in about fuel economy. A Jeep Wrangler is not fuel efficient, especially with full time 4WD; it's great for offroad and/or slippery conditions. A Jeep Cherokee is better on fuel and is a little bit less reliable for offroad/slippery conditions (still good). The platform for both of these vehicles is truck based, which allows for stiffer suspensions to handle offroad conditions.

A vehicle that is not truck based may offer AWD or on demand 4WD. You get the benefits of a vehicle (gas mileage, passenger room, trunk space, etc) with the benefit of added control during difficult road conditions. There are a ton of vehicles like this; Subaru makes an excellent vehicle. Toyota's RAV4, Honda's CRV, Jeep Liberty etc etc are all examples that would work for you.

If you're looking for piece of mind in the event of bad weather, there's nothing wrong with front wheel drive.

My experience driving is varied; I've driven (at least) one vehicle of every decade form 1920 to present; I've driven trucks, cars, SUVs, motorcycles for 40 years. I lived in SEPA (Bucks Co) and commuted to Princeton daily. I lived in Trenton and commuted to Philadelphia daily and I grew up outside Chicago, commuting to various suburbs and city locations. Most of that commuting was done in a front wheel drive car. Only once did I lose traction on ice. Once.....my favorite driving option is FWD with a 5 speed manual. Give me that and I can drive in ANY conditions.

When I purchased my 09 Nissan Sentra new, I paid extra to have the undercarriage coated with something that looks like tar and smelled terrible for a couple of weeks. This undercoating is even under the fenders. It should protect or help protect my car from rust. I sure hope so because I plan to keep my car for another 15 or so years. I wash my car more frequently in the winter to keep the salt from doing harm.

Dees, I live in NEPA. Until the 4Runner, my DH and I always bought late-model used cars, mostly Cadillacs and Jeeps and drove them for a long time. (This includes the 1992 Chevy Caprice I bought in 1996 and still drive today 7 months of the year.) I forked over $42,000 for the brand new 4Runner (which is truck-based, BTW) because my DH was dying and I wanted something that would last me a very long time.

I've discovered that "long time" is a relative term. I didn't think 10 years and 90,000 miles was all that long for a top-of-the model line Toyota, but Toyota disagrees. I was told by one of their salesmen yesterday that anything with that many miles on it just goes to the auctions. They consider it pretty worthless. This has been a learning experience for me.

I'm not sure how much money I can spend on another car, but I would rather get a better car used, perhaps with a purchased warranty, than buy a lower-end car new. It sounds like better economy to me, but it might just be an emotional decision. I love driving and I love cars. If I had unlimited funds, my garage would contain some fine German engineering as well as my dream car: a 1996 Chevy Impala S/S. I can't afford to be much of a car snob these days, but the instinct is still there. :-)

Susan -- On the bright side...you don't still have that cute but notorious "Fix It Again Tony". Says the woman who drove Jaguars (plural): One to drive and one in the garage for repairs.

I bought a brand new 2013 model car in mid-January of this year, so I guess that makes it the car I drive in winter weather. :-) It has FWD, but the winters where I live (great Sacramento, CA area) are much milder than your winters in Pennsylvania. I love the fact that my windshield wipers come on automatically when they sense rain; and I love the heated seats; but that's about all I need in winter weather.

Chisue, you're right--I'm so glad I have wheels right now! I usually drive the Caprice all summer, except if I need the 4Runner for some reason.

The day before the rust rot was discovered during routine yearly inspection, I took the 4Runner to NJ with my son. We had it loaded up with ham radio stuff, and drove for 120 miles, mostly over 70 mph. According to my mechanic, the control arm on one side had separated completely and was useless, and the other one looked like it could go any second. That would have been beyond horrible. I wonder how many other 4Runners are out there, disasters waiting to happen? A similar problem is why Toyota recalled a huge number of Tacoma trucks a few years ago.

Undercoating! That was smart, Linda. I wish I'd thought of it--and I wish the dealer had asked if I wanted it.

Lindsey, I'm trying to remember what you bought. Heated seats are a priority of mine. It sounds silly, but it's true. I love the heated seats in my 4Runner, especially with my Raynaud's. If I forget to warm up the engine before I get in I jam my fingers (well, not both hands at once!) underneath me.

This post was edited by alisande on Sat, Aug 3, 13 at 18:21

There's another option in used cars - a certified pre-owned. I don't know how many manufacturers offer this but it might provide more confidence in your purchase. My son was looking at used cars last month and he would only look at certified vehicles.

There are thousands of cars that were flooded by Hurricane Sandy that are now on the market. One of the TV news shows recently aired a segment on how easy it is for a seller to have his car professionally cleaned to remove obvious traces of flooding and then sell it.

This link to Edmund's gives a good explanation. My son's VW dealer even offered extra services that usually are only available to the original owener - free loaners while his car is in for servicing and the option to purchase additional warranty years from the dealer.

Here is a link that might be useful: Edmund's explanation

have a chevy 2003 venture, and it's going thru the rust stage as well...I don't have a clue what to get...but I think I have all wheel drive? the worst was in wa state had a1980's buick century (huge in those days)and unlike Detroit fairly flat and salted, seattle wa is hilly and sanded...I learned the hard way, you come to a complete stop, then turn on a hill!...I drove around with fire place ashes and kitty litter, just in case I got stuck! (happen once)

my dd has had 2 jeeps, and she has liked them ..i'm larger and found them to be confining...

Yes, having to live in the cold prairies, the salt on roads in winter was a huge problems with vehicles and the undersides of them plus the car too.

You get special coating and you wash the salt off, its like your boats that you go into the ocean, you power wash it off each time you come back to the dock.

You have to care for your vehicles.

Same with if you are in a bad area during the winter, then make sure you have good winter tires to drive during that time.

Ask about all that protection and yes, they cost money but then you take care of your car, it will last and you wn't end up those kinds of problems at all.

And yes, depending on area and how hard hit you are area where you live and work and drive your vehicle, get what you need on it, proper winter tires, vehicle that can handle the snow and ice. Make sure its safe to drive during those hard times.

I personally don't like the snow driving or icy either and haven't had vehicles to drive, they never had enough oomph to get up the hills here.

Now I can stay home during those times and wait it out and am happy about that.

Susan, I bought a 2013 Lexus ES 350. I love the heated seats in the winter, and I love, love, love the ventilated seats in the summer!

Yikes--I've never even heard of ventilated seats! I shouldn't have asked, Lindsey.....now I want them. LOL

Maire, I'd been wondering about pre-owned certified; I saw it in used inventories online, but didn't know what it meant. Thanks! And good point about the flooded cars. At first I thought they wouldn't end up here, but this is exactly the area they could end up.

Kathleen, you're right--I probably could have prevented this. I guess I trusted that it wouldn't happen because it never happened to any of my other vehicles. When I went through a car wash I always lingered as long as possible over the underwash, but I never used a hose to wash off the salt at home. For one thing, I've never attempted to use a hose (or power washer) in sub-freezing temps, and for another, the Raynaud's prevents me from staying outside in the cold that long. But other than that, I do take care of my vehicles.

Susan, I always have kitty litter in the car too--partly because I forget to bring it all in the house. :-)

I don't know a lot about pre-certified cars except that the cars get extra inspections by the dealer and in some cases extended warranties beyond the original warranty. It varies by manufacturer. My GF bought a 2 year old certified Lexus and got an additional 4 year warranty.

My last 3 cars all became certified because of their low mileage, excellent condition and a year remaining on their original 4 year warranty. Anyone purchasing them were getting excellent used cars.

It's not a perfect system, we've all heard of dealers or manufacturers who try to wriggle out of warranties but apparently a manufacturer's warranty is considered better than a third party warranty.

Since we're so close to the area where Hurricane Sandy hit my son was really cautious about getting one of those cars. He even had the dealer sign something verifying that his car wasn't flooded - and since he's an attorney I'm sure he covered all his bases.

As for the ventilated seats - DH's car has them. His leather seats have tiny perforations in them and in the summer when they get hot you can just press the button and cooled air flows through the holes. It's a nice option but when I ordered my present car I didn't bother getting them. I seldom used DH's.

Right now I'm driving a Ponitac Vibe which is a front wheel drive. I don't have any issues getting around in the winter and I drive 60 miles one way to work on country roads.

I drove a Jeep Grand Cherokee for many years. LOVED that Jeep. Never worried and went everywhere I wanted - snow, ice, what-have-you. No problems. UNTIL . . . . . we turned it over to son #2 when he got his license.

He immediately hit a deer with it. Bashed the front end in some, but it was still driveable. Then he hit another. Hard. Bashed the headlights, bumper, and pushed in the radiator. It had over 150,000 miles, so we put it on Craig's List. A guy drove from 2 hours away to get it - said he was going to restore it. It had no rust whatsoever.

I bought a 1-year-old Cadillac after I turned the Jeep over to son. Front wheel drive, full-size four-door. I'm still driving it. I can go ALMOST anywhere with this car. Even 6-8 inches of snow, unplowed, is no problem. It's now 10 years old and just getting ready to hit 150,000 miles. No rust. Runs great. The ride is very smooth - a lot better than the Jeep, which rode like a truck.

Here in the winter, I drive around in a light sweater. :-)

Jodi-

Jodi, I'm trying to remember how to create the emoticon for sticking my tongue out. LOL

Here you go ... :-p

hahaha.....good one, Jodi!

We had a Subaru Outback when we lived in MA. I LOVED that car! It was great in all types of weather, especially snow. Subaru, who makes only all-wheel drive cars, is the #1 car sold in Vermont becuse they are so good in snow.

Ellen

I had a Chevy Trailblazer for several years that I really liked, needed something a little bigger, so now I drive a Tahoe.

Like them both a lot. And both do very well in snow and ice.

My ExDH had a Jeep Wrangler soft top. It was fun to drive occassionally and really would go anywhere, but I hated getting in and out, driving long distances and it was loud!

You won't like my answer! I drive a Toyota 4Runner Limited. LOL Sorry! It's gotten us home in blizzards, pushing 20" of snow out of the way as we trundled thru it. LOVE my 4Runner and I can put it into 4WD with the turn of a switch.

Preferably, though- I don't go out when the weather is snowy. But sometimes you're away from home and have to get back.

I drive the same thing winter and summer. My 2002 Hyundai Sonata.

Years ago when front-wheel drive first came out, I was driving a Camaro. Stupid thing would get stuck on a newspaper! Hated that car. Got rid of that thing after owning it a year.

I bought a front-wheel drive car, and it would churn through anything. Have driven front wheel drives since. All cars, no SUV's or anything fancy. In my dreams I would like an SUV, but funds are limited.

My car is still running fine, with 290,000 KM on it. I just got it checked for my bi-annual Drive Clean and it passed.

This post was edited by jasdip on Tue, Aug 6, 13 at 9:02

Flamey, I don't hate your answer at all, but I'm curious: What year is your 4Runner? Since the problem with mine was caused by inferior metal, and Toyota realized this at some point, the 4Runner line was probably great before 2003, and I would hope after as well (but I don't know when). Mine is a Limited too, but it's AWD--no switching.

Jasdip, I had to do the conversion...290,000 km is 180,000 miles. Still a good distance!

A little red sleigh. The two whole days it snows here. A rear-wheel drive, convertible Miata. Doesn't help you any! But I wanted to say, good luck with your search. Cars are fun! And I agree, sometimes you must drive in snow. I would think tires matter, on top of the vehicle type... Kelly Blue Book has a top ten review below, if that helps.

Here is a link that might be useful: KBB top 10 best snow/ice vehicles

I've always had sedans with FWD, and never have any problem. I've lived in Cleveland, which gets tons of snow, and now north of Boston. Always in areas with regular plowing, though.

Mine's a 2005, Susan. No signs of rust that I know of, I'll ask my mechanic to take a good look next time he's under there! Thanks for the heads-up. I'm really sorry about your 4Runner.

Mine sits in a garage most of the time, so that may be one reason we're aren't having any problems. I've got about 75,000 miles on it and knock on wood, so far so good. We really are die-hard Toyota fans and have the BEST service depts around here. Well, in Rogers, about 30 miles away.