Enought is enough! Hope parents say NO!

What a tough position to be in.

No davice.

We all know what they should do, but that takes a lot of strength and they probably don't have it.

Time to cut the apron strings.
I hope they told her that the 70K is coming out of her half (or whatever %) of the inheritance.
Her plan is probably to set up camp in htat house and claim it as her own when your parents pass.

(I'm sorry if I sound harsh today, but I've watched too many parents "help" their irresponsible children. Who really gets screwed? The responsible children - i.e. YOU.)

Absolutely not. Keep the paying tenants. It is a good rule of thumb to never rent to friends or family anyway.

Stay strong with your dad and don't allow this enabling to continue. At some point we have to be loving but assertive with our parents just as they were(or should of been) with us when we were under their care.

I canÂt tell you how difficult and frustrating this has been. IÂve been trying to get my mom to understand. I know she wants to help her daughter, but giving her more money is not the way! I just canÂt get that into my MomÂs head.

My sister did ask my parents for more money so my husband and I sat down with them and went over a spread sheet that clearly showed how this would not help. There is no way sis can stay in that house. Because of our talk, my parents told my sister they could not lend her any more money which is when she "demanded" (in my dadÂs words) the rental.

BTW  my sister doesnÂt like me very much  IÂm not supposed to know any of this. My father brought me in because he had no one else to turn to. When you live to be 86  you donÂt have many friends leftÂ

My Dad says my Mom cries every day over this which is killing both of themÂ

I am so angry at my sisterÂs selfishness and lack of caring where my parents are concerned. And I am angry at my Mom for making this harder than it has to be.

And my Dad is caught in the middle: give sister what she wants which will please Mom and risk loosing everything? Or be the Man of the family and put his foot down and watch his wife cry every dayÂ

I am venting a bit. :-(

Too bad they don't sign over the rental to you then you could say no and mean it.
Hope your dad hangs tough on this

IÂm really hoping someone here can guide me to a money manager (or what ever they are called) Â someone who would take in my sisterÂs income (alimony and minimum wage job) and would make sure her debts were paid and give her an allowance to live on.

Does such a person exist???

Instead of worrying about your sisters money,contact someone in Elder care,maybe thru AARP and tell them your sister is trying to bleed your parents dry.They may be able to lead you to someone that can set up something where your sister has no access to your parents money under any circumstances.I think what your sister is doing could be considered elder abuse in some way.After all she is putting a guilt trip on them.

You may also check into seeing if your parents will give you power of attorney,and no money can be taken from them without your signature.
Kathi

I feel sorry for your parents, it's hard enough to deal with all the other issues of growing old without having to deal with spoiled grown up children on top of it all. I've never heard of any type of money managers, other than debt consolidating companies, but a lot of them just rip people off. You can't force someone to be responsible with their own money. I'm sorry you have to deal with her too.

They will not give me power of attorney nor would they be found incompetent. I appreciate these suggestions, but they will not work in this case. :-\

I really thought I could find a money manager  but IÂm not finding anything. I found the term "Conservator"  but that is coming up a dead end too. I suppose it doesnÂt have to be a professional  but I was hoping that a professional could somehow flag her credit accounts to not allow any more credit. I guess I was just dreaming that such a person existed I was just trying to come up with a workable compromise Let her in the rental (which mom wants), but protect my parents (which dad wants and mom needs).

Don't let her into the rental. This is basically a business your parents run to help support themselves, and you will be jeopardizing this source of income for them if she moves in. She wants to continue to take advantage of her parents. If she is in the rental, she probably will NOT pay the rent. If she does not pay the rent, you'll want her to move out, and that will be difficult if she has no money and no place to go. If it were a stranger, well that's their problem, but a daughter/sister is different. It would be difficult to evict her.

Also the dogs--there could be trouble with the neighbors because of these dogs unless they are well behaved, don't bark.

In the end, your sis and the dogs will probably trash the rental and you'll have to spend a lot to get it back into renting condition. Your parents just don't need this stress. You and your Dad need to be together on this and continue to try to help your mother. It's hard for a mom not to try to help a child, even a grown one.

Good luck, and your parents are lucky to have you to help them.

jeri, do you have any idea which bank your sister uses? call and see if they have a counslor. at least it's a step in the right direction for sis. as for a money manager, it would probably cost more for one. although if she's in foreclosure, a bankrupsy firm might control of her earnings. sis needs more of an intervention and a 12 step program (like they have for aa)

jeri found this site... don't know if they have exactly what you need???

Here is a link that might be useful: http://www.moneymanagement.org/

You cannot interfere with either your sister's or your parent's financial situation.

Try to talk your father into doing what is best for your mother...renting that property to a valid renter instead of your sister. Explain to him that, because it is an income property, the IRS will not count your sister as his daughter, but as a renter...and he will be responsible for taxes on the rental amount...even if she doesn't pay a cent. That he has to think of your mother's welfare, and convince her that family cannot occupy that property.

As to your sister...she's going to be livid, and probably will drop you and your parents. Once the money is shut off, those people go away. Don't feel bad about it. It's her life, and about time she takes responsibilitiy for herself.

Don't worry about sister...those people always find another sucker.

Jeri, try your parents' bank and see if they have a financial consultant there. Hope you find a successful answer soon; I know this is so stressful for all involved.

A member of my family was walking her dogs. One got away from her and put a red mark on (but did not break the skin of) another lady who was walking her dogs on the same street. Other lady got a good lawyer, claimed permanent physical damage and mental anguish, and the lawsuit cost my family member THOUSANDS and THOUSANDS of dollars.

And you are much nicer to your sister than I could be in the same situation. I would be in her face so fast!!! I won't tolerate that kinda crap.

Susan  Thanks for the link. They donÂt have an office in my area, but I will call and see if they can help. And I agree with the 12 step program  but like all addicts (my sis is addicted to spending)  they usually have to hit bottom first which will never happen as long as someone (was her husband, now my parents) continue to bail her out.

Monica  We have the *perfect* renters in there now  I would hate to loose them. Thanks for the info on the IRS too  I didnÂt know that. I did know my sister would be livid and tried to help my parents prepare for this  but in the end, it didnÂt help at all. My Mom seemed strong and on board with everything until talking to my sister. Now she thinks my Dad (and me) is wrong. I do worry about my sis  she has *never* taken care of herself before now and look how she did in just a few short years. She was totally set up in her own home  a house with a lot of equity, a house she could afford and a retirement account for the future. All of which is gone now And, she is 48 years old Very sadÂ

Evatx  I will call my parents bank  or have my dad do it. Thanks for the suggestion.

Okwriter - I want to get in her face, but I know it wouldnÂt any good. I do worry about the dogs  my sister says they are nice, but out of control. They destroyed her backyard and all the furniture and even a large trampoline. The dogs are one of the reasons my Mom is so adamant about my sis moving into the rental  she canÂt imagine having to give up a pet on top of everything else my sister is facing. What I canÂt get through my MomÂs head is that those dogs donÂt have a good life! My sister works 40 miles from home and is out every night and every weekend partying. ThatÂs the reason they are out of control  they are bored! My Mom has her priorities out of whack  she should want a better home for those animals But, my "logic" falls on deaf earsÂ

It would be ludicrous to evict perfect tenants to move you sister in.

Maybe I'm reaching here but does your sister have addiction or mental health problems? Perhaps your dad and you can convince your mom to go as a family to a support group with families dealing with these issues so your mom can learn how to help instead of enable. Alanon,Gamanon etc. deal with addictions. There are family support groups dealing with mental health issues through NAMI.

How about buy her a copy of The Total Money Makeover, by Dave Ramsey? He's having a sale right now, $10 a book! She may not read it but then again she might and she might come to her senses.

My sister is my brother's protective payee. Is that the term you are looking for? In his case, he is on SSI and has a seizure disorder which has caused memory problems. Not sure if there has to be some sort of problems in order to have a protective payee or not.

I know that here if you are on Social Assistance (Welfare) or if you owe money, it can be arranged that a portion of your payment or salary goes directly to the landlord or whichever creditor applies.

This is arranged through the employer or social service agency however.

Sometimes banks can automatically transfer amounts from accounts on specific dates, but that would entail making sure the money gets deposited.

If her "income" is support payments, could you ask her ex-husband to make an arrangement with you? Or if he pays through an organization or the courts, could it be arranged through them?

We sort of kind of have the same problem with a nephew, in that he often gets evicted because he "forgets" to pay the rent and spends his entire (small) paycheck. But he needs to make these arrangements himself because he is an adult and no way is he agreeing to it.

Sorry you are going through this.

Dances.

I don't want to give you more to worry about, but with 86-year-old parents things could change at any time. One of them could become incapacitated, or worse, and that would bring a whole new set of financial issues.

If you're not already prepared for the various contingencies, I hope you'll seek the advice of an attorney who specializes in elder law. He or she might be able to offer some wisdom on your present situation as well.

Best of luck. You're in a tough spot. I agree with a lot of what was said above. Too bad the responsible child has to suffer.

Several people here have given you excellent advice. My advice is to get a lawyer specializing in elder care, sit down with both parents and draw up documents to protect you and them. Dogs??Many communities are now outlawing these two breeds. Find out where the rental is, if these dogs are allowed. Also if this is a duplex, talk to the renters. Let them know and find out how they feel. You can list no pets. That is legal When we rented to our son, we had to prove to the IRS, that the rental income we were collecting, and expenses we had to pay were equal to the surrounding area. That is we could not rent and charge less than other properties in that area. Another very important thing, once you let a person rent, whether he/she is paying, on welfare, etc. you cannot just evict them. It will cost $$$$, papers served, court expenses etc. The renter has the right and we ended up with a lot of expenses, placed trashed, drugs, etc. Yes we have been thru this. My suggestion is to get legal advice, with your parents, and document everything--phone calls, dates, time, threats, conversations etc. Go back and find out how much your folks gave her, promises to pay back etc. Yep we have been thru that too. It is called tough love. Do not cave in and things will get better.

I have to agree with alisande. A good lawyer who specializes in elder care. They have a myriad of contacts and references, and once you explain the situation, hopefully, they can steer you in the right direction. Is it possible to talk to your sister yourself and let her know what she is doing to your parent's?
I will keep you in my prayers and hope that all works out well.

If you have good renters and they pay on time is it possible to sell it to them with a low down payment? Your parents are getting up there in years and it may be the best solution of all. They won't have to pay the upkeep of it and the new owners would keep your sister out of it.

Jeri, what about a financial planner? That might be a place to start.

The thing I see with this is that you can't just hire a money mgr. or financial planner to manage your sister's money. If this isn't something she's not legally bound to do, she'll decide that she doesn't like someone else making the decisions about her money & will just stop using them. Even if she signs a power of attorney, she can revoke it. For a competent adult, there aren't many options unless the person is willing. It sounds like that wouldn't be the case with your sister. I think about the only time that someone else can manage the money of a competent adult is if they're in bankruptcy & the court or someone appointed by the court can make decisions so the debts are paid off.

I agree with the others; the best thing is to not let her live in the rental. Unless she makes a really good salary, $1800 is a lot for rent. It sounds like your parents need that amt. of rent every month. It's really not fair to them to allow her to live there & keep taking money from them (which is what would happen). Your mom needs to understand that your sister would leave them penniless. Your dad is doing the right thing. Just stand firm with him. I know you're in a rough place; it isn't easy being the responsible kid.

Unless your sister is declared incompetent by a court, I doubt if you or anyone can force money management on her. There's no way your parents should turn the house over to her. Your mother will be pi$$ed off, but so be it. Your dad has to take the lead here. The big picture says it's time for sis to sink or swim.

Jeri, I think what you may be thinking of when you say "money manager" is a "debt consolidator". I don't have any to recommend but hear ads on the radio all the time for them.

Jodi-

Jeri my heart goes out to you and your dad. It appears like your mother is doing as any mother would do...protecting her child. Unfortunately it seems it has been going on too long with your sister. I believe family needs to take care of family, but as you have stated and know in your heart. she has totally taken advantage of the situtation. $70k is A LOT of $$$$$$

It is too bad your dad will not appoint YOU trustee of their estate..that could/would resolve a lot of the problem. You need to explain to him it is not meaning he is incompetent...it is more in his and your mom's best interest.

Contacting a lawyer is probably the best advice right now.

I will keep you in my prayers and thoughts.

Well, yeah, I'm sure she would love to take over their rental and avoid the consequences of her irresponsible ways. But a "renter" who doesn't pay her bills just won't work for your parents.

With $70,000 gone forever, your parents have done more than enough to "help" your sister. Get a lawyer involved, to make sure she doesn't try to pull something behind your back.

You can't "fix" her or change her, but you can protect your parents. Please don't waver on this. Your parents need you to be their advocate, and to be strong so THEY don't have to deal with her. I worry that without your being absolutely clear that she is NOT moving into the rental, she's going to keep pressuring them until they cave. Your parents don't deserve to spend their remaining years being badgered or impoverished. Good luck!

This is clutching at straws, but do the present renters have a lease? If not I would suggest you immediately have them sign one, assuming they are willing to do so. Explain the situation so they know it is just a precaution. Your sister needs to be told the house has been leased long term. End of that story.

She will never agree to turn her money over to anyone else, so that is out of the question.

Someone in Elder care is probably your best bet to protect your parents.

Good luck and Blessings.

Sue

You know the insurance company we have questions what dogs we own. They will not cover places with Pit Bulls or dogs that are considered dangerous.
Tell chickie it's time to grow up (is she gambling. doing drugs??) and move on. Tell your dad never to cosign anything with her!

An eldercare lawyer, or any other lawyer will not discuss your parents finances without their permission - both of them.

It's possible that the lawyer can't advise in a specific way, but they can dispense general advice about options. In my experience, most elder law attorneys (and probably other attorneys as well) offer a free initial session, during which various options can be discussed.

I think it's worth a shot. In the worst-case scenario, the lawyer will say they can't discuss your parents finances. (If that happens, I would move on to Lawyer #2.)

Thanks everyone. You all supported what I know to be true already but it *really* helps to hear it from all of you. So I thank you all very much.

Elder Law  never heard of it. IÂll look into that :-)

I wanted to share something that moved me many years ago. Carol Burnett had her daughter committed to a drug rehab against her daughterÂs will. Carol Burnett said "You have to love them enough to let them hate you." I hope when my time comes (mom to 1 10 y.o.) that I will be strong enough to do the right thing even if my daughter "hates" me for it at the time.

There is something called a Protective Payee in WA state, who can be in charge of someone else's money, pay their bills, and then give them an alloted amount of money to live on. But, unless she would agree to one, it's hard to force someone to unless they are on public assistance or social security and you let the agency know that the person is unable to manage their own finances.

You probably shouldn't let her move in, but if you end up not having a choice, you can try and force her to agree to get a payee. Here, they usually charge around $40-$50/month for the service.

Good luck!

You have received some good advice here. Hurry and try to find a solution to this problem.
My husband's sister talked their aging parents into relocating from WV to Florida. We did not know that she also had them draw up a will and leave everything to her. She also had the property and home they bought in Florida put in her name. She also had all my father-in-law's stock put in her name. She became a very rich person when they died a few years later. She DID NOT care for them as she had promised. There was nothing my husband or his brother could do - their hands were tied. The will was written to say that she was the only child that was to receive anything. The "others" were not considered children of the marriage.
Don't waste time or your sister may talk them into something that you won't be able to get them out of.

I still say,don't worry about your sister,she's a big girl making bad choices in life and there is nothing you can do or say that is going to change that.

Your first and only concern should be your parents,and help your dad convince your mom not to let her move into the rental.Besides a lot of states won't allow those kinds of dogs into rentals,as some insurance companies will not cover anything should something happen.

It's time for your sister to grow up and take care of herself and her problems,and you need to step back and let her do it.She will either sink or swim,and that decision is totally hers,but no way should she be allowed to have access to your parents money and property.JMO

Hope you and your dad can convince mom to stop being an enabler!!
Kathi

My sister wants (actually demanded  can you believe that?) to move into the rental with her Pit Bull and Rottweiler (I told you she was a mess)

BTW Â my sister doesnÂt like me very much

I am so angry at my sisterÂs selfishness and lack of caring where my parents are concerned.

and look how she did in just a few short years. She was totally set up in her own home  a house with a lot of equity, a house she could afford and a retirement account for the future. All of which is gone now And, she is 48 years old

My sister works 40 miles from home and is out every night and every weekend partying.

And I agree with the 12 step program  but like all addicts (my sis is addicted to spending)  they usually have to hit bottom first which will never happen as long as someone (was her husband, now my parents) continue to bail her out. My guess is that she is certainly addicted to something a lot more harmful than spending. She may likely be in trouble soon, and hopefully find herself at the bottom, so she will then maybe want the professional help she needs.

I am strongly suspecting drug abuse/addiction.

Like someone else said above...if she gets in there, and does not pay, the only way to get her out will be through eviction...and I'm certain your Mom could never do that...or it would maybe fall on you to do it since you are managing it for them.

As far as the dogs...well people who are a mess (can you say drugs), do usually have that 'sort of dog'...I'm not sure if it is to protect them, or to protect what they have.

You might want to check out this thread...Pit Bulls, for or against?

I agree...get a long lease in place with the existing renters...where you promise to rent to them for X amount of time, but with the option that they only 'have' to give X numbers of days notice if they care to move at anytime.
After X amount of time has passed surely your sister will have found others to take care of her, as she likely has lots and lots of friends.(??)

Best of luck.

Sue

LOL Sue! I wasnÂt sure where you were headed with the snippets you choose to copy. :-)

I do have to wonder where all her money has gone. She has refied her house several times taking out over $300,000 in 4 years time  plus the 100+k in her retirement acct she cashed out. She still has my hand-me-down furniture and her yard is just dirt. Where the heck is all that money??? She has several credit cards  all maxed out (according to my mom). IÂve never gotten the impression that she has a drug or gambling problem  never. Still  where the heck is all that money??? IÂm sure I will never knowÂ

Often people who abuse or are addicted to drugs or alcohol, are very demanding. They feel and act like everyone 'owes' them.

As far as your sister not liking you very much...well, that is because you (and only you) have a problem with her and her ways. You are 'on to' her, and thus you are the enemy. You are the one standing in her way of getting her way.

As far as the selfishness...again, all they care about is themselves and their 'next fix, or habit. They show no concern for anyone but themself.

Every night and weekend, partying...drugs, or alcohol, or most likely both.

She has refied her house several times taking out over $300,000 in 4 years time  plus the 100+k in her retirement acct she cashed out.
This all, or a very good portion, had to go on drug, alcohol, gambling, or some combination of those things.

She does not want help, she wants a handout...as that would be what it would be living rent free.

Your sister is driving 80 miles a day for a minimum wage job? That is crazy with gas prices as they are. My guess is that there is something else that she has in the town/city that she works in, other than her job.

Your Mom and Dad, have been enablers. They have enabled her to do as she merrily pleases with no consequences for her actions. You and your Dad know now, that this in no way helped her...it just helped her to go on being irresponsible or addicted to whatever she is on/doing.

The only way to help her, is to give her advice, and food if she is hungry. She is old enough to realize that she has to work, to pay the givens (living expenses). Since paying for one's living expenses has not concerned her before, it will not all of a sudden be a priority if she is renting (?) from family.

Your Mom, at her age may never understand the concept of enabling, versus helping, but hopefully you can make her see that helping your sister to the tune of $70K actually never helped her one bit. It just prolonged the inevitable...of her losing her home.

$300,000 in 4 years time  plus the 100+k in her retirement acct she cashed out.
$100k a year would almost have to be drugs or gambling. I doubt if anyone could drink away that much money....but I could be wrong.

Sue

Jeri, my only sibling could have been a clone to yours, over the years said sibling never learned that one has to stand on their own two feet. My parents gave and gave and my mother continues to give ...... only now it's not my deceased sibling but the son of said sibling. My mother now a widow is doing without living hand to mouth but when grandson wants gas money or beer money, well grannie "lends" it to him. Then phones me and complains about the situation.....will she cut him off.....no not on a bet. I have also been informed by him he is her prime inheritor of what little she has...oh I'll get something cause otherwise it doesn't look right. Talking to my mother is like talking to a brick wall, I've learned to let it go but it still sticks in my throat. You are not alone in this kind of thing....so do what is best for your parents and sister be darned!

Over a ten year period from 1978 to 1988 my parents gave EVERYTHING they had to my two youngest brothers. They cashed in stock and retirement savings, second-mortgaged their home, co-signed loans for them, bought them a truck so they could start a business. Eventually Dad died at age 74, I say of a broken heart, when one of my brothers declared bankruptcy, leaving Dad holding a big bag. My widowed Mom had to go back to work at 64 and live in a small apartment. She is now 84 and in a nursing home on public aid. But if she could, she would still work so those jerks wouldn't have to.

There are a lot of awful stories out there. Whatever her reasons - it doesn't really matter why - your sister is one of them. Don't let her make your parents another sad story. See a lawyer immediately with both parents, maybe even sister present. You'll have to be the *itch who protects her parents.

Uggg  IÂm sorry for all of us in a mess like this. ItÂs just so stupid  isnÂt it? ThatÂs what I keep thinking  itÂs just so stupid! No rational person would allow this! But as some of you have pointed out, I guess there are lots of irrational people out thereÂ

Again  thanks for all the help and support. IÂve read everyoneÂs response  even if I didnÂt reply directly to you  I read your reply and truly thank each of you  it really has helped.

Jeri

Things will work out for your sister. Everything will end up being all right (IMHO). Sister will end up somewhere, probably living off of friends (?) until they tire of her and ask her to move on/out. Then she will turn to other friends.(??) In time your Mom, will see that she is just fine...not living out of her car, or living on the street...that she was able to work things out.
People like your sister have a long list of suckers and friends (??) they figure then can use and abuse.

In the meantime, just try and assure your mom that everything will work itself out...and if she ends up not being able to keep her dogs, then maybe it is for the best, since it sounds like they didn't have much human interaction with her being gone all the time. She needs a sleeping room at the very most, if she is just working and partying all the time anyway. Surely she can afford that much.

Sue...who has seen all kinds of addicts, and families torn apart by addicts, their addictions, and the enablers who think they are helping them.

Father can put his foot down hard over the situation now and see your Mother's daily tears over Sis's living arrangements now OR watch her tailspin into depression & really cry because they have NO home & are totally dependent on you. They are truly at risk of losing everything!

30 yrs of property management experience taught me that the law always sides with bitten party & know of cases where landlord had to pay MEGA bucks because someone was bitten by a dog belonging to a tenants VISITOR! Owners had NO idea the animal had ever been on the premises until lawsuit was filed.

Good luck and bless the three of you!

Suzi

I was just looking at another site, and found a wonderful quote I had forgotten about. It has a nice application to your sister's attitude:

"A failure to plan on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part." Doesn't that sum up the situation nicely?

I like the idea of getting a lease signed if you can, by the current renters. Also, I wonder with others here about substance abuse. In any event, good luck in securing your parent's financial interests before your sister destroys what they have worked so hard to acquire.

i'm not there yet, but i can see one of my daughter's bleeding us dry if she got the chance
she thinks she deserves to be helped because she is a good person (and she is except for this subject)
she wants to stay home with her children and only work when they're in school-but she wants the same standard of living as other people have
she thinks her dad and i should support their family the same way we supported our other child the five years she was in college (daughter 1 didn't want to spend her time going to school-no school no support is what we said 13 years ago and we're still having to repeat it)
yesterday she said she didn't think she would be able to buy groceries this week
i'm not looking forward to the next few years!!
dh is putting our "assets" into some kind of trust so it'll be tougher to get to
we sound really ugly, but we feel really sad

yesterday she said she didn't think she would be able to buy groceries this week
I take that is a hint that she will need some money or they will starve. I'd take her grocery shopping, and only buy what she picked out that met with my approval...no junk, no snacks, no high dollar meat, and I'll bet she'll not let that happen again. As a child growing up in the fifties, we only had an occasional evening/night snack, and that was usually popcorn popped on top of the stove, on a Friday night.

Good luck...maybe she needs a copy of the book Personal Finance for Dummies . Then maybe she will get the message that she not handling her finances in a very smart way.

I have learned to accept that there are situations you have no control over and certain people you can't help. I have seen it in my own family. My Mom continues, even at 90, to give money to my 61 yr old alcoholic brother who refuses to get help. She gave him $5000 to go into rehab and he spent it on a trip to Bermuda with the current alcoholic girlfriend. He has lost everything meaningful in his life; wife, daughter, house, career because of his drinking. There are times I wish he'd get caught driving without a license, he has had several DUIs, and get sent to jail for a long time. I know that is harsh but I am so tired of his behavior that I want him out of our lives.
Clare