This sounds like one of those contract terms that they throw in and hope you won't notice. You need to tell him "nice try" and politely ask him to remove that clause.

I'm spending about $10,000 on the damage to my floors and walls that the contractor I fired did. DO NOT sign that contract. Fortunately I didn't sign a contract like that so I have a chance of recovery.

For a very small ($400 or so) amount of money, you can have an attorney review the contract and change the wording to be fair to you and the contractor. If you like this guy, go ahead and get it to an attorney. If not, don't even bother with him.

Have the contracter delete the word "not" and tell him you will sign it, lol.

I would tell him he accidently typed the word not in the contract. Just cross it out, have him initial it with you next to the cross out and then sign it. (just kidding about the crossout part).
G

One of the problems contractors have is that they get blamed for pre-existing damage and for doing exactly what the homeowners wanted, the way they wanted, and thus damaging things (slightly). So they protect themselves by denying all liability all over the place and sticking that clause in hoping you won't read it.

Negotiating points: If taking out the "not" won't work, try adding words like "negligent" (Igloochic's recommendation to see an attorney is excellent). That is, if they dolly the fridge on your driveway and the cement cracks it shouldn't be their fault, because driveways should allow one to wheel a fridge. On the other hand, if two men are carrying it in and drop it and the cement cracks, that could be negligent because more people or a dolly and it wouldn't be dropped.

You can also check with your insurance company. They might have a short term policy you can get which will specifically cover contractor's damage regardless of negligence.

plllog: "You can also check with your insurance company. They might have a short term policy you can get which will specifically cover contractor's damage regardless of negligence."

I would not hire a contractor who does not carry his own general liability insurance. Why should the homeowner have to incur a claim on their insuranceÂÂor pay for additional insurance...to accommodate a contractors lack of responsibility in providing his own?

In additon, out of curioisty, what happens if he or his crew gets injured on your job? Well worth asking.

Thank you all so much for your comments. I really appreciate this forum. I knew that this clause was overly protective of the contractor and that if we had a problem, contractually it's on me. But I was reluctant to assert myself because I felt like a I was being a trouble maker. It's their standard contract and apparently everyone else signs it (wait! I hear my mother's voice: If everyone jumped off the bridge...).

Your responses reassured me that I'm not being overly cautious. I'm surprised at myself that I need the reassurance, but I do!

Pllog - thanks for your advice. I'm going to ask for a re-write that includes your negligent example. And I'll have my company's in-house attorney review it (she's a friend and a smartie).

I will take my stand on this and let you know how it goes.
R

I also wouldn't sign it as is. That's what REQUIRED contractor's liability insurance is for. Just for grins, if you haven't yet, you might require that his insurance company send you an insurance certificate, and him showing you something isn't good enough. It could be outdated. You have no idea how easy it is for someone delivering materials to drive over where a septic tank or leech fields might be, and then either destroy the leech fields or crack the septic tank, and then YOU'RE on the hook for thousands of dollars worth of repairs that you didn't plan on, if you sign this, and that's only one example.

No way, no how, would I sign.

I would never sign that!

I just had a new heating system put in. One of the guys took a misstep in my attic, and his leg went through the lath and plaster ceiling. With a contract like that in place, *I* would have been responsible for the repairs!! No way! They had to get it fixed for me, AND they had to fix it with lath and plaster (not drywall).

They never did paint it though. Which just goes to show that you should never pay 100% until the job is 100% done. The plaster had to dry before painting, and the guy promised me *of course* he'd come back and paint it for me. So I didn't withold any money (b/c I felt silly witholding a teeny amount of money on what was an expensive job overall--would have only been about 2%). Stupid me!

Keep us posted!

Francy

Oh, dear! I didn't realize we were talking about people who don't have liability insurance!!!! NEVER let anyone work in your house without contractor's liability insurance. Bill's 100% on the mark about making sure he's fully covered and current to begin with. I was talking about getting some extra homeowner's to cover whatever the contractor's insurance didn't--and the contractor's insurance may very well not cover problems that happen just because someone worked, but not because of any fault or negligence on the contractor's part. In fact, that's what I thought that clause in question was all about.

Contractor's liability generally covers things like if they screw up, don't finish, and slip and fall cause by the work environment (as opposed to workman's comp). It generally doesn't cover sundry damage to your property because that's usually small claims and you have to sue them directly if they don't make good right away. (Unlike Bill's example of destroying the septic system by driving where there's no driveway--that's probably big enough for the insurance company to get involved. But, then again, if you tell them to drive there it's probably your fault and they'll argue it's not covered.)

The reason I said a policy to cover regardless of negligence isn't to let the contractor off the hook! The insurance company will go after him and/or his insurance if they're liable. It's because if there's a big scratch in your floor, you just want it fixed you don't want to be bogged down proving whose fault it is. A lot of people self insure (i.e., use cash) for this kind of thing, but if the difference between the premium price and the coverage is advantageous to you, a little extra insurance could provide great peace of mind.

I was talking about getting some extra homeowner's to cover whatever the contractor's insurance didn't

The very MINIMUM any contractor should have for liability is 500,000.00, and most carry atleast a million. Those who work in high end homes, like myself will carry 3 million in liability. That should completely cover any mishap that might occur, short of burning down the whole house and all its contents.

My husband's a GC, and he'd NEVER write a contract absolving himself from damage done by his subs or him. If they damage something, they're responsible. That's why he carries liability insurance. And more importantly, that's why he's so careful!

But as Plllog points out, some clients do try to pin everything on the contractor. Sometimes it's pre-existing damage and they're intentionally trying to mistreat the contractor; more often it's unrelated damage or normal wear and tear. Probably most often, it's expanding the scope of the job to cover a greater amount of work with no increase in compensation. The old "behind-the-wall or under-the-floor" issue.

DH was renovating a small room for a client once and suggested as a last-minute add-on that he replace the old yellowed wall outlet and faceplate so it would look as nice and fresh as the rest of the room. $15 add-on. As it happens, the outlet was GFI, but the wiring wasn't -- wasn't even up to code. DH explained to the client that the wiring (which hadn't been touched) wasn't up to code, and that his professional code of ethics forbade him from replacing the outlet and switchplate - so he'd deduct the $15 from the contract. Client tried to insist that for $15, he had to replace the wiring and everything on that line, bringing it up to code at the same time -- all for $15, like it implied in the contract or he'd sue. And he was a lawyer. Very ugly scene... (DH refused, client didn't sue - but we had a heck of a time getting paid.)

What sometimes CAN happen is that plumbing work 'shakes up' grit and grime in the lines that then flows downstream and clogs other pipes or fixtures. Or, slight vibrations on brittle pipes can cause leaks in other areas of the house. A good contractor will address these issues up front so the client can know what to expect.

Thank-you Sweeby, for explaining it better!!

Bill, does your insurance cover the kind of thing Sweeby is talking about? Does it cover small claims? Those are the things I was talking about not being covered, rather than there not being enough payout. Maybe some contractors have blanket coverage, though I don't think the guys with that clause probably are :)

Maybe more contractors have to have blanket coverage (rather than straight liability) nowadays since there are so many schnooks out there that people get unreasonable even with the good and honest ones. I've been fortunate in my own dealings, but I do know people who have been well out of pocket fixing stuff after the work was done that was no fault of the workmen.

Thank you for your impassioned responses. I wanted to chime in on the insurance question. The contract does include a clause pertaining to the Contractor's insurance, BUT, it also requires that I take out additional insurance prior to commencement of work. That's another beef I have with them. I pointed this out to my "guy" (who is very low on the totem pole) and he said he thought that meant homeowners insurance and that no one had ever said any thing about it :) Here's how it reads:

Contractor shall at his own expense carry all workers' compensation insurance and public liability insurance necessary for the full protection of Contractor and Owner during the progress of the work. Certificates of such insurance shall be filed with Owner and with Lien Holder if Owner and Lien Holder so require. Owner agrees to procure at his own expense, prior to the commencement of any work, fire insurance with Course of Construction, all Physical Loss and Vandalism and Malicious Mischief clauses attached in a sum equal to the total cost of the improvements.

I contacted my insurance company and they thought that request was odd and that my current homeowners policy should be sufficient. (It covers damage from fire, vandalism, theft, and about 50 other calamities up to $350,000, which is just slightly over my kitchen budget - ha ha!) The agent thought the contractor might be looking for a Builder's Risk policy but she felt that was overkill for a remodel with no additions.

The contract does not mention whether or not the contractor carries general liability insurance, only that they carry public liability insurance (which will come in handy if they knock out a street lamp...)

What do you think?

T

Bill, does your insurance cover the kind of thing Sweeby is talking about?

No insurance will cover shady clients trying to get something for nothing. Unfortunately, I got bit by a lawyer, as well, when I first got into the trade. She literally ended up getting almost 700 feet of tile floor for free. I won't do work for lawyers any more for that reason, no matter HOW well they claim to be willing to compensate me. My insurance will, however, cover any damage that might occur to any premises I work on, no matter how big or small the damage. As with any insurance, though, for smaller damages, it'd be in my best interests to pay it out of pocket.

Sheesh! Tina, at this point you're well into specifics beyond anything I know about :) I didn't mean to create a ruckus, but I kept getting the feeling that I was being misunderstood :) Surely, my fault if I wasn't being clear, but I did want to try to do better. Like this last exchange with Bill :) I meant to ask if he had anything to cover things that are unexpected and not strictly his liability, like shaking loose the grit, but he related to the part about odd, snaky lawyers (I do know some very honorable lawyers, but the snakes are scary!!).

Have you met with other contractors? Have you read other contracts? You could try asking the contractor for his insurance certificates (and check them out), including contractor's liability. I'm not sure it matters if it's in the contract so long as he actually has it. I think, but you should check, that it's required in California (I think you're L.A. not Fla., right?).

BTW, have you checked the contractor's references? As in gone to see the work, had nice chats with the clients, etc.?