This is what I saw as an implementation of that photo.
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Tables can push together for larger groups, you could get seating for up to 8- this is showing an arrangement for 6.

I think bmorepanic's suggestion for seating is great - but I don't think it would work here. It looks like the only way to the bedrooms is through the kitchen. In bmore's drawing I think that puts all the house traffic directly through the working part of the kitchen. I think the left side of the kitchen needs to be left free of obstructions to be useful for the path to the bedrooms.

In OP's layout, I would move the sink closer to the living room to 1) cut down on butt colisions between someone at the sink and someone at the stove. and 2) I think the sink would look kind of funny being only partly in front of the window.

Seems like seating could be a little tight for a table between the kitchen and living room, but if you kept it small and maxed out at seating 6 it could probably work.

Its just about 7 feet for a table and chairs (the drawing says 86" not 8'6"). That's hard to do and maintain any sort of aisle.

It gets hard to choose between blocking the aisle with the ref doors, the stools and the table and chairs. Having people going for the bedrooms being able to actually walk through seemed like the lesser of two evils.

Dunno tho, it depends on the op's desires.

Part of the difference between your layout and your inspiration pic is that we can only assume where they have the frig. It's not next to the stove which severely boxes in your layout. Is that large window already there? Can you go with a somewhat smaller window? I'm usually not one to advocate lessening natural light; but with limited space, I think you might benefit from it. In your layout, did you have a DW to the right of the sink?

@ surveymom you see my problem exactly (well, one of them anyway). Because the only way to the bedrooms, and the bath for that matter, is thru the "new" kitchen, I was trying to keep the left side open. My original layout was even more to the right of the room (see pic below). Thanks for the suggestion about moving the sink...As a matter of fact, I visited a kitchen display warehouse today & decided on doing just that. The seating between kitchen & living room is another one of my problem areas. I really only need to seat four anyway. Any suggestions on what type of arrangement might work best? Round table or square? Counter height or bar?

@ bmorepanic thanks for re-working my layout but as surveymom pointed out, I would like to keep the left side open. You mentioned that your layout was taking the lesser of the two evils in regard to an "aisle". Could you explain further? Are the seating aisle requirements the same as the working aisle ones?

@ remodelfla refrigerator placement is my "other" big problem, right after keeping the left side open & choosing a dining area configuration. My layout has the fridge next to the stove only because of the hallway door opening. I contemplated putting it on the left side of the room but was not sure how far down from the doorway it would need to be. Any idea? That large window is even larger than my layout shows. The full dimensions are 103"x66" with the bottom ledge being only 24" from the floor. I have to shorten it to counter height anyway but are you suggesting I also make it narrower? If so, what are the pluses to doing this other than gaining space for more wall cabinets? And lastly, my layout does not include a DW. I would much rather use that space for storage. Besides, I wash my dishes by hand.

OLD LAYOUT:

Using the 3 x 5 table(and most any other table) in 86" depth, there is about 50" left over or 25" per side - not enough to even comfortably get into or out of the chair. No one can pass by at all - person would need to get up and move. Because chairs stick out from the table, it would be trippy going past the table at all. In effect, the table blocks both the route from the living room and the route between the island and the table.

With 5 feet in the other direction, we start with 12.5 feet minus 5 feet PLUS 2.5 feet for empty chair leg space for both sides combined. There is 5 feet left or 30" per side (if centered). Again not enough space to properly get into or out of a chair at the table and no aisle where anyone is seated.

The open ref can block the way to/from the bedrooms temporarily and also block the aisle on the top end of the island. If you have a dishwasher in a 42" aisle, when open it can block nearly 30" of the aisle.

The last thing I've got is in your "U" shape? The minimum recomendation is 60" between the arms of the "U".

i think using bmorepanic's LO, I'd put a skinny table in about the whited out area on that LO. even on the N side with the N side of where the sink ends and over into the room somewhere in the area of the left side of the stove.

do you need 4 seats at the table all of the time? you could put 2 chairs on the left side of the table, 1 on the S side of it and pull over another chair when eating.

what do the stairs at the back of the house go to? will putting the mstr bdroom back there close off open access to somewhere important?

Skimmed posts and didn't see the answer to this - forgive me if I missed it. Are you doing this for YOU or for potential resale? If it's for resale, I'd recommend you try to squeeze in a DW somewhere - even if it's a small one.

Oh, and I LOVE the inspiration picture!! I drooled over it in my issue of HB!!

Argh! I can be very stupid!

On the two ends of the table, there would be around a 40 inch space - certainly enough for to use the chairs. The space for storing the chair is used when the chair is pulled out.

@ bmorepanic So going with the U layout, I need to at least add an 18" cabinet along the window wall is that correct? If so, then that shortens my available dining area space even more so Im glad I scrapped that idea. What if (going with the island layout) I eliminated the seating nearest the island, pushed the table more inward to allow better traffic from the living room, and allowed only "passing" traffic around the island? For example, the table that I currently have in the "original" dining room is kept almost flush with that large window to the right of the room. The chairs are kept elsewhere and only pulled out when the need for additional seating arises (which is hardly ever seeing as the current 12x16 dining area is way too much space for my current needs). Also, you lost me on the 12ft minus 5ft plus 2.5ft calculation. Would you mind "dumbing" it down for me, LOL?

@desertsteph Skinny table? How skinny do they come? Will it have to be a custom build? The stairs in the current mudroom lead down to an unfinished (and rarely used) basement but there is access to it from the exterior of the house. My long-term goal, if Im still living here in 10-15 years, is to go ahead & chuck up the money for that addition, change the "current" master bed into a family room and put a set of basement access stairs into the "new" family room.

@parsuzi The new kitchen is for me, the extra bedroom is for resale (if it ever comes to that). My current kitchen is the stuff of nightmares (the wiring is inadequate, there are 3 different entrance doors, the plumbing has to be redone and one of the walls has a chimney stack in it). At first I was going to just update it in its current location but the quotes I received were astronomical!!! Then I looked into moving it altogether and its only gonna cost me a couple extra thousand, so I figured might as well move it and get an extra bedroom out of the deal while Im at it. I have a portable dishwasher but as I mentioned before, I never use it but it I decided to resale, at least I have it. And yes, isnt that kitchen the ish? I especially love the open shelving on both sides of the windowand the how the stools are tucked out of sight under the island.and the natural neutral color schemeand the.and the.and the. LOL

@bmorepanic you lost me againIm not so good at visualizing with just numbers? Would you mind explaining it to me again? Sorry :-(

I like your revised plan #3 with the sink moved down as suggested.

Would you be open to creating a small banquet in the bottom left corner of the kitchen closest to the LR? An L-shaped banquet (short side along LR wall) will provide the seating you need daily with room to add more chairs when needed without blocking bedroom access.

Also, consider giving up bar seating and opt for more storage in your small kitchen instead. Every inch will count. Speaking of, you can add more storage in the banquet seating, if you go that route.

Good luck with your challenging space!

I was thinking of making the window narrower to allow for frig placement on the right at the endof the counter run. That would give you much more adequate counter space to the left of the range. Sorry if I missed this but what size and shape is your table? If you're going with a new table to fit the space then there are alot of options.

Appologies for the shortness of the prior explanation and the length of this one.

Chairs take about 15" beyond a table edge just to store them "tucked in". This can vary also with the scale of the chair, but all of them stick out to some degree. You might have some that only stick out 8".

Chairs have states - tucked in, pulled out for seating and occupied.

To pull out a chair and become seated takes about 32" from the side of the table. A body in a chair sticks out around 2 feet from the edge of the table.

People need around 20" (minimum) to walk around a chair. The aisle containing chairs without a person seated needs to be about (15" for the chair plus 20" for the path) 35" from the table edge. The actual space taken can vary with the size of the chair. When a body is occupying the chair, you need about (24" for the person and the chair - plus 20" for the path) 44". This can vary depending on how the seated person is actually sitting.

In your island plan, there is a space 86" x 150" between the island and the living room wall for a table. If the table is oriented so the long side of the table is parallel to the long side of the space, then the short side of the table is also parallel to the short side of the room.

Using your 3 x 5 table as an example, the table (short side) is 36" of the 86" depth of the dining space. That means there's 50 inches of floor that isn't covered by the table. Divide by two and that gives 25" on both sides of the table.

Can a person sit in 25"? - yes they can.
Can a person become seated in 25"? - no they can't.
Can you walk behind a chair in 25"? - no you can't.
Can you walk behind a seated person? - no you can't.

When the table is being used as a dining area, people can't actually come into the kitchen from the living room. People coming from the bedrooms can't leave. Because they won't have enough space between the unoccupied chairs and the island or to go around the end of the table without running into places that are just too small.

Mitigation for everyday use would be the table up against a wall with only two chairs, like you described. There doesn't seem to be a way to make it work as a dining area for 6 seats, tho.

The 2.5 feet thing is shorthand for the 15" add-on for using actual chairs that stick out when tucked in. So table length plus 2.5 feet by table width plus 2.5 feet is the amount of room you need to store the table plus chairs. So the actual size for a 3 x 5 table WITH CHAIRS is close to 5.5 feet by 7.5 feet.

When people are seated at the table, it takes (3 feet plus 2 feet for each of 2 sides) by (5 feet plus 2 feet for each of 2 sides) or a space 7 feet by 9 feet. Space that allows people to become seated (3 feet plus 2 times 2.5 feet --instead of using 32" cause the math is too hard-- by 5 feet plus 2 times 2.5 feet) or 8 feet by 10 feet. Space that allows people to talk behind the seated diner adds about 44" to each side or adds 7 feet to the table width and length.

To use the room the way you described takes a space ten feet by 12 feet.

So that's why I killed the island and went for a banquette. I was thinking that for every day use, a table and two chairs could be stored.

There's definitely other solutions - island with table space glued on or bringing back the kitchen table or maybe using a very narrow, long table running up the middle that normally keeps a deep chopping block on one end for prep work.

hth

@lisa_a Yes, Id be open to a small banquet. However, the entryway between living room and dining is "encased" (see pic#4 below). Will that present any potential problems with the banquet installation? GASP!!! Lose the bar seating? I really, really, really want the seating. Do you think I can get away with open shelving for storage under the knee space at the bar side of the island?

@remodelfla Ahhhh, fridge placement. Thanks for that suggestion. Didnt even think of that. Im going to revise my layout again to see how it looks on paper. My current table will not be used in my new kitchen. We refer to it as a tree table. Its huge, heavy, wooden and oblong. It measures 81" x 44". I will definitely be going for a new table.

@bmorepanic thanks for taking the time to provide such a detailed explanation. I have a much clearer picture now. Just to be sure, please correct me if Im wrong, I need at least 20" from the table edge if I plan to store the chairs elsewhere, 35" from the table edge if I plan to keep the chairs tucked in but not used, 44" from the table edge if I plan to have people sitting there with room to pass but only 32" if no room to pass. So, for a seating arrangement of four and based on the short side of my "proposed" dining area, my table options are (and again, please correct me if Im wrong)....46" table width if I store the opposing chairs elsewhere (20+20=40, 86-40=46), 31" table width if I store one elsewhere & tuck the other in (20+35=55, 86-55=31), and 22" table width if I store one chair & allowing for seating with traffic behind the other (20+44=64, 86-64=22). Is that right?

PIC #4 VIEW OF ENCASED OPENING
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Ive been playing around with my dining area placement using bmore's space requirements for occupied, unoccupied and tucked in chairs. In doing so I see another problem. The run of cabinets on the east wall are interfering with the passing clearance around the chair closest to the window so, I shortened them by 9" (see revised island layout below). Is 30" of clearance between the edge of the last cabinet and the edge of the table sufficient or should I go with a smaller sink base to shorten the run even more? Also, I changed the blind cabinet to a lazy susan. Can that work being so close to the stove? Should I switch back to the blind cabinet with a 12" between it and the stove?

REVISED ISLAND LAYOUT

My kitchen is a very similar size and sort of similar layout. I did this...it's definitely not for everyone, but I really wanted seating for a lot of people, to have an island, room for 2 or more cooks, etc. It definitely is not 'traditional' in that I don't have a separate dining room, this is it as far as dining seating goes, but I have a small house and a separate dining room would have been wasted space.

I'd post pics now that it's almost done, but the camera is broken :( Anyhow, here's the layout. Besides the 24" cabinet on the right of the island, the rest is built like a table with seating on all sides. It's 36 x 108". You are sitting in the 'kitchen' when dining, but I liken it to the Walton's kitchen :) I took out the pantry cabinet next to the fridge and went with a lower and an upper there because the corner was too crammed in, but other than that it's pretty much the same. All of the aisles are 48", which I would consider too wide if it weren't for seating on all sides. With people seated at the 'island/table' it's perfect for walking around all sides.

Oops, I didn't realize that bar seating was a must-have for you. ;-) Okay, it must stay.

Do you really need a separate table? Even your 2' wide table with seating makes the space seem crowded and makeshift to me. Would you be open to donka's fabulous solution of an island/table feature? Given your space and constraints, I think this would work very well. Odd as it may seem but giving something up may make the whole space feel and function like a larger space.

I'm no boxerpups, but here's my stab at finding you images to inspire. A few are more traditional than your inspiration pic above but you can change the cosmetics fairly easily.

Sawhill Custom Kitchens

Colonial Craft Kitchens, Inc.
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DeWitt Designer Kitchens, CA
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Northeast Cabinet Design
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Bath & Kitchen Builders
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Westborough Design Center, Inc
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I found the above images in the kitchen photo galleries at kitchens.com (link below). I purposely chose kitchens with islands that did not line seating up in a row like at a bar. It just feels friendlier if you can see fellow diners without craning your neck to see around the person next to you. This isn't a big deal if you have additional seating but if it's your only seating, I think it's a key detail to keep in mind.

I really like both Bmore's and Donka's layouts. We stayed in a beach house that had the dining table attached to a peninsula (the table was 30" high) and it worked beautifully. I personally don't like sitting counter height to eat but you have the space to add a lowered table to your island.

There was a thread a while ago that included a video of some famous woman using her Lacanche range and her kitchen was very long and narrow. She had a galley layout with one long wall and a long island. The range and sink were on the same side as in Donka's kitchen and it looked and functioned great; so much so that I was very sorry that layout wasn't an option for me.

In Bmore's layout with the banquette, traffic doesn't really interfere with the cook since it's not traversing the space between the sink and the range. It'll be challenging to fit everything you want/need into your space, but I think you can do it especially with the help of the very talented people on this site. Good luck.

lisa_a, I totally agree about facing other diners, especially if it's your only table. That was a big deal for me too, hence the 'table' portion, and it's working out great!

What I'm really enjoying is the number of 'helpers' I get in the kitchen! Seated people seem to congregate on the left side of the island, staying out of the way, and on the right I can have a couple preppers, and what's nice is that they can stand opposite each other on each side of the island and chop up stuff while I'm at the stove etc. It really is working out well :) I think you just have to be the casual kind of person who can handle guests looking at pots of food or a sink while they eat. I definitely am that kind of person. This is a small beach house, but it's my only house and probably will be for a very long time so maximizing space was important.

Great inspiration pics!

I finally realized what's been bothering me. You talk about your needs but you also talk about changes with resale in mind. When I compare the two, I see them pleasing two different demographics.

On one hand, you wrote that you are fine with no more than 4 seats (and your latest plan makes even 4 at the table difficult) and no DW. That would suit empty nesters, young singles, young couples with 1 child.

On the other hand, you're planning to convert the current kitchen into a 3rd bedroom for resale value. You also mentioned adding a family room in the future, although I'm unsure where it will be (finished basement or converted bedroom). Families with children would love a 3 bedroom home with a family room. But limited seating in the kitchen and no DW would be turn-offs (actually no DW would be a turn-off for the majority of people, regardless of family size).

Maybe I've misunderstood. But if not, I think it would be wise if you aligned your wishes with resale goals for the best return on your remodeling dollars.

@donka wow, thanks for thinking outside the box. I was trying to make the island big enough to be functional and seat two BUT small enough to also have a dining table. What an ingenious idea to just make the island the table!!! By the way, is my math correct? Is your kitchen approximately 19ft x 12ft? Id love to see pictures of it once your camera is fixed. My house is small too, about 1200sq ft, and the current dining room is, in my opinion, over-sized & under-used. It was built in 1920 and Ive been told that dining rooms were a big deal back then. Oh well, "one mans treasure" I guess.

@lisa_a I agree, the two foot skinny table does seem makeshift (good word). I definitely like donkas suggestion and am going to play around with it on paper. What Im really trying to go for is the "feeling" that there is still a dining room in the house, not just a living room & a kitchen (know what I mean)? Thanks a million for all the inspiration pics!!! Some of them are darn near spot on (youre good). That last one really caught my eye with those doors in the upper cornertheyre orientation is identical to my layout. Thanks again. By the way, what is a boxerpup?

@cheri127 After looking at the inspiration pics from lisa_a, I really like the "attached" lowered table idea. Ive always preferred counter height seating but Im about 6ft tall. However, I recently had a baby so now I have to re-think everything (like maybe its not a good idea to feed the baby at counter height, LOL). Funny how that happens. For instance, "only" two bedrooms were fine with me when I bought the house but whod a thunk Id be a mother at nearly 40. Shes only 5months old right now but in about 13yrs or so, I predict I will really need that third bedroom.

@lisa_a I may have misrepresented my motivation. I want a new kitchen and a third bedroom, but Ive wanted the kitchen first. When I purchased this house, I did so with plans to renovate the horribly outdated, under-functional, cluster-fudge of a kitchen (see pics below). While interviewing construction contractors for the project, I was constantly reminded that "a third bedroom would increase resale value". This sales pitch was lost on me because I didnt need a third bedroom (I was planning to transition from young-single to empty-nester in this home) and was not thinking of selling, ever! But, flash forward five years to present day and my demographic has changed from young-single to single-mother. Still dont have that new kitchen and that third bedroom just got bumped up the priority list (not right now, but in 10-15 yrs maybe). I have no desire to sell my house but one should never say never, right? Besides, renovating the kitchen in its current location is really expensive because its soooo outdated, has galvenized pipes & knob-tube wiring. Plus, moving it only raises the cost by 3-5% so I figure might as well kill two birds with one stone (just in case I have to sell or miracle baby #2 shows up). The family room is just a "while m dreaming" wish. As for the dishwasher, I wont be putting one in my kitchen because Im not reselling but if in 10yrs the need arises, is it really that difficult to replace a base cabinet with a dishwasher?

THE OUTDATED KITCHEN (these understate the issue, will upload more pics soon)

LOL! Boxerpup isn't a what, it's a who. She's the go-to GWer who always comes through and then some with inspiration photos. She's amazing! Glad to hear my attempts to emulate her succeeded and helped you. I like the island design of that last kitchen, too. Given your height, that raised end for the MW is slick.

Had 'nother idea for squeezing in more storage. You just might be able to add 2 shallow cabinets facing into the kitchen on either side of the LR opening (to the molding, not the full opening).

Thanks for explaining your now and future goals. I've no idea how hard it is to swap out a cabinet for a DW. Someone else will need to answer that one for you. Might be best to start a new thread with that question.

Just think how wonderful your new kitchen will be compared to your current kitchen!

we've had several kitchens on here with an island table combo. i really like the look of them.

you might also gain a few inches between table and island if you turn the island.

you don't really show a 24" cab area that could be replaced with a dw. going on the LO you posted - with the red rectangles on it. possibly an 18" one on the end.

Actually, both my kids did/do most of their eating at counter height :-) It was either that or feed them two rooms away in the *carpeted* dining room. I never had a highchair (because I couldn't get it to fit) and just used a hanging booster seat on the island when they were little. If I were doing it now, I'd probably get a Stokke Tripp Trapp, but that's (maybe) another topic. Do think about where you'll want to put the baby/infant/toddler for meals, though - you'll probably want something easy to use, easy to get out of the way, and secure enough that you don't worry about them falling out when you turn your back. Oh -- and easy to clean!

As for the dishwasher, it might not be too hard to pull out a cabinet, but it might prove quite difficult (and expensive) to run the power and the water after the fact. Just something to think about.

I wish I had that wooden cabinet in the last picture! And those "old" steel cabinets with the sink. Those are worth money to the retro people. You could sell them. While you're waiting, search retro kitchens and see what comes up. Craig's list, eBay. It might be a while until the right person saw your add but it would be to your advantage to see if you can sell it. Are there any architectural salvage shops in your area? I have spent hours in one of those looking at all the stuff and wondering where I could put THAT!

So this is an old post but I just turned it up in a search, and have to say---wow! You have our house, except that ours has a little sleeping porch at the back of the back bedroom, our front door is at the end of the living room instead, and it's a few years older (1915) so the aesthetic is a little different. The wall between the kitchen and mudroom was also modified in our house in the 1930s...but otherwise eerily similar! Unusual, since I almost never see other bungalows around here with the living room spanning the full front of the house.

Anyway, just thought I'd throw that in there. We'd never thought about converting the kitchen to a bedroom---creative thinking! :) Hope the project is going well.

I've always liked this kitchen on the FKB I agree with you about wanting to face others.