on my way to bed, but wanted to make a couple of quick comments... I think the up and down of the cabinets in the 9' section is not helping matters and I do think going all the way to the ceiling would minimize the ceiling change. will post a link below the a kitchen that has a soffit with cabinetry in front to hide soffit.

I can't see where the pantry and desk are so can't comment on that.

there are some absolute layout EXPERTS on this board, so I won't comment on the layout although i think it looks pretty good.

Here is a link that might be useful: row of narrow cabinets on top of other cabinets

Wow! You have a lot of questions...almost overwhelming! But let me try to answer some.

Pantry. I think I'd like the diagonal there, but not sure. I have a corner pantry w/diagonal door and it helps define the kitchen boundaries. My pantry, though, is much smaller (~41" x ~52").

I agree w/mamadadapaige...the staggered progressively taller cabs (then progressively shorter) cabs seem to accentuate the difference. They also look like steps and don't seem quite right.

Don't eliminate the Message Center area completely...or move it somewhere else; but keep it close to the door the family uses the most or where it is easily accessed from Kitchen & FR. You'll want at least a "drop zone" for keys, etc. near the entrance and a phone within easy reach of Kitchen & FR. If you have a mudroom, the drop zone could be there.

I have to admit I'm a little confused about the floor plan...is the formal DR the eating area b/w the FR & Kitchen? Or is it in the unlabeled room on the bottom (with entrances near the desk & on top)? If that room is the DR, then you have a lot of eating areas....island, formal DR, kitchen table, and what looks like a breakfast nook in the upper right. Do you really need all those eating areas?

What is the big area south-east of the Kitchen that contains the desk area? It looks empty.

You're right about the dimensions and other labels, they're pretty much impossible to read.

May I ask why you're closing up the fireplace? This is my personal feeling, but I love fireplaces and I think one in the kitchen would be very nice!

The ceiling height change doesn't bother me at all -- especially since frig and d.ovens fit perfectly in lower section. The staggered heights look awkward, but you mentioned that wasn't your plan. I think a consistent cabinet height, whether 8-ft or 9-ft, will make all the difference.

I would not change pantry entrance to a diagonal. Maybe for a focal a diagonal makes sense, but not for a pantry door.

As prior poster asked, why are you eliminating the fireplace? Most of the time, having a fp in kitchen would add so much. Of course, it would required reworking your kitchen plan, but you have so much space, I think it's doable.

Thanks for the replies! I'll try to clarify a few things - I know that was a lot to take in!

mamadadapaige - Thank you for that link - I happen to like the stacked cabinet look, so that could be an option I'd explore. I agree with your comments - am just wondering if there were only two cabinets flanking the hood ( level with the fridge) if that would be enough of an improvement -or not.

buehl - Thanks for your comments. On the floorplan (I will work on that!) the pantry is to your immediate left when you walk in the space. Newer version has a straight wall to your left ,too, then goes off on the diagonal - so, thinking about it some more I don't see a big issue with the entry to the kitchen competing.

The formal living room is, as you guessed, the unlabeled room and space to the top right of the kitchen is a breakfast area. It's far walk from the kitchen (this was a flipped plan - kitchen used to be in the L shaped space where the empty wall and desk are now)so I don't want to give up a nearby breakfast table. Am also not crazy about eating regular meals at an island. I like the idea of people pulling up to visit when I'm cooking, but maybe there ARE just too many chairs in the space -as you can see there is even room for a game table in the pushed out area of the family room. Should I just get rid of the barstools altogether?

The southeast part of the kitchen, the wall that looks empty, won't be - it will be a 9 foot long area - with upper glass front cabinets for glasses and barware storage, a counter and more lower cabinets. Sorry I don't have a current rendition of this on my computer. I think it will be good to have that as a way station when serving to the formal dining room and is where I was thinking of putting another sink. This wall is seen prominently when you walk into the room. Here's a picture of the desk wall - as my formal dining room has little room for storage, was thinking of adding a hutch to that run.

{{gwi:1982228}}

I love fireplaces, also - we will be putting a new one in the family room(open to the kitchen) , and I have one in the living room, as well. Covering this old one up just seemed to make better use of the total space. In my current (tiny) kitchen the breakfast table is in front of that fireplace and the kitchen is where the desk and empty wall are shown. This kitchen is a bump out (the area with the sink and cooktop) - we would have ended up with a much smaller kitchen the other way - couldn't bump out in the area in front of the current breakfast table.

Thanks again for any and all comments!

mjlb, We cross posted. Thanks for your comments! I'm hoping that you are right - that a consistent height on the cabinets (maybe even still giving me that raised hood look I covet) will make a big difference. I'm glad to hear that this doesn't otherwise bother you.

The most photo above shows the entrance to the pantry on the right angle. The entrance to the kitchen itself, although not obvious from the picture, is angled (desk wall is farther back than pantry wall). I guess I wasn't in love with walking in to that door on my left and kind of thought it would break up that long run of wall. Would have preferred a back wall of appliances over there from a looks POV, but it was too far away to put fridge there.

Yes, I would love to have kept that fireplace - but flipping the kitchen gave a much larger space as it also allowed a bumpout. That wall was also going to be quite costly - redoing a second fireplace and outfitting the flanking pantry closets on either side would have taken a huge chunk of the cabinet budget and still left a big empty space on that side of the room.

Not necessarily in order but a couple of things I see

-Re: Fireplace - Is there a way to incorporate it w/o closing it entirely off? What is the current condition - is it aesthetically appealing - Curious because I'm wondering if you could put the cooktop there & vent out/up the exisiting (this has come up on this site before, but I can't recall when/whom) - Could you have a stone/brick niche (exist fp) behind the cooktop

- If that is not an option - I would be certain about how the hood will fit/work because of the proximity to the, what will be closed FP - You want to make sure you can get ducting through that wall & out - the placement now looks as though the hood hits corner of FP - which would likely be stone/brick

- I would be certain that GC/subs/cabinet people are certain on measurements in this area (take it fr. experience) and have ALL necessary wiring, plumbing, flooring done PRIOR to closing the FP & that city is aware so a code issue does not prevent you fr. obtaining permits/CO - That should have firestopping material as it will act as a conduit for a fire (a giant void btwn floors)

- have you considered a range vs cooktop/wall ovens - this looks as though it would give you a more efficient option on that wall

- ? are base cabs all cabs or will some be drawers

-Another thought - IS pantry existing? It looks huge - can you downsize the pantry - freeing up some wall space?
- It will be tricky (but certainly doable) to have the crown, cabs to meet the appropriate heights in that area (differing ceiling heights) & the wood used today is rather green so, it will shrink
- There are lots of threads on differing ceiling heights here, and lots of creative solutions to dealing with them. Some incorporated in overall plan, some hidden, some even put nice wood beams on ceiling to "embrace" the issue.

- Given the existing plans I would tend to agree about the staggered heights bringing more attn - I wonder if you enlarged the uppers - increase width - instead of 2 narrow - 1 wider how that would look (not knowing existing measurements)

- RE: add'l cab to R of sink - not knowing dimensions - but a cab or hutch that wrapped around that corner may be well suited

I think posting dimensions & labeling where things are located may help - I had a difficult time figuring out where things are

Good luck!

Looking a bit more at plan, it looks like there is not enough space to right of sink for a wall cabinet, unless you shift window to left, or reduce the window width. Also, you commented a couple times on symmetry, and therefore you might prefer your sink to be centered on the window.

While I don't think ceiling height change looks odd with the cabinets, I do think it looks odd with the pendant lights over the island. Perhaps a wide fixture with one central post to the ceiling would look better.

Have you considered breaking the island into two pieces? The first time I saw a kitchen with two islands, I thought it over-the-top; but now I see it quite a lot and like it. It also solves the impediment-to-circulation complaint some have about large islands. Maybe a rectangular one lined up with cooktop, but rotated so the end aligns with sink run of cabinetry. Then another in front of frig -- maybe a huge, round wooden chopping block type of island.

I'm a little confused about your reference to the main entry to the kitchen being near the pantry. It looks as tho' people would mostly see the kitchen from the breakfast area and living/family room, and the pantry entrance would be more of a service entrance? What is the room below the built-in desk?

Even with the additional cabinetry on the dining room wall, your "old kitchen" area seems vacant. Generally, I think there may be too much built-in cabinetry along peripheral walls. It may feel a bit like a large living room with all the furniture lined up on the walls. Furniture pieces that could serve the purpose of some of your built-ins, such as the hutch, desk, maybe even the wet bar would relieve the look of so much cabinetry. Pieces that curve out might be especially nice to counterbalance all the sharp edges that prevail in kitchens.

You have a lot of space to work with - which makes it more difficult. Maybe you could push out a part of your dining room wall to form a niche to hold a china cabinet in the dining room. Or build a pass-thru' butler's pantry (with sink)along dining room wall.

And if you made it thru' this long post, I appreciate it!

I have a slightly similar situation, where the ceiling height changes (but into a vault) ... my designer wanted the edge of the island to run along the beam (does that make sense?), to delineate the space some.

So what if you turned the island 90 degrees, made it shorter and fatter. Then you wouldn't need the odd short pendant, and it would function with the main sink as kind of a galley. Your stools would run under the beam.

I haven't thought it through too much, so there might be issues, but that was the first thing I noticed.

I guess, looking at it, that would make the island into a square, with stools on two sides: two where they are now, two under the beam. Don't know if that is good or bad.

Oh, boy -- I am procrastinating by reading GW when I should be working... BUT

Would a wet bar work better for you near breakfast area or near to dining room, or elsewhere?

Thanks for the new comments! As I mentioned before I am working on being able to post a much more detailed floorplan. Thanks for hanging in there with me!

jejvtr- Thanks for your detailed observations! Some great thoughts. To answer your Qs:

Existing fireplace is not appealing - it's old and ugly. Hard to see from floorplan, but the hood doesn't impinge on the masonry fireplace - it's actually in front of one of two existing pantry closets that flank the existing fireplace (this room was originally a tiny den). This wall gave us a lot of headaches - considered a wall of pantry closets surrounding a fireplace with the kitchen on other side of room, but this was a much less functional use of space and would also have been $$$$. I really appreciate the comments about issues involved in covering over the FP - will definitely ask ALL of those Qs.

Range - A range is not my first choice - I prefer two full sized ovens, and not to have to bend down, but I'd consider, if it would really help matters (they do look great).

Base cabinets - definitely want drawers for pots and pans - they are just not shown yet.

Pantry - an extension of one of the existing ones.

Re: adding a cabinet to the right of the sink - I can make that happen by reducing the size of that window. Only issue is that the pane size won't then match what is in the rest of the back of the house, but that doesn't bother me - it also gives a natural ending place for backsplash.
No room for a wrap around hutch there, unfortunately. Thanks very much for taking the time to look at this with me!

mjlb- Thank you -loved the drawing! I am especially excited about the idea of bringing down that corner cabinet to the counter - I think that would, indeed, give some balance to the run. I think you are also on to something as far as switching the position of the fridge - it's not that much farther away from the window sink and becomes easier to access for others. If I end up putting a primary sink in that island, it's like having two zones and remains very close. I like the concept of open shelves there, too. Verry interesting.

To answer your other Qs:

As mentioned, we can reduce that window and make room for a cabinet to the right of sink.

I thought of a single post lamp fixture. Only Q is whether it would provide adequate light for the current 9' island.

I have given some thought to the idea of two smaller islands, too. However, I'm also thinking of moving the sink to the middle of that island and making it a primary sink, in which case I'd need pullouts for trash, a dishwasher etc. But I would consider.

Main entry near pantry is from the front of the house and the foyer/main hallway The room "below" the built in desk is the existing (already decorated) living room.

Your point that the old part of the kitchen seems vacant is well taken. I felt that it was even worse when we tried to design a plan that was flipped the other way, though. Bigger is not always easier to design -unfortunately walls are not always able to go in the right places!

I like your idea to try to break up the uninterrupted built in cabinets against the wall look. - a separate hutch, rounded edges, a desk designed to look like a desk, rather than a built in , etc. I think that with this comment you really got to the heart of one of the major things bothering me about the space.

Thanks again for all your help!

segbrown- Thanks for your suggestion! I especially like the idea of ending the island where the ceiling height changes. I will look into this. Maybe there is some creative way to incorporate the island with that in mind. I do think there is an issue with turning the island 90 degrees in that it can't be too long before impinging on the breakfast room space.

Thanks so much!

Was thinking about how to keep wall double ovens. In first plan, D.O. is opposite short end of island. In second plan, it's on right hand side between butler's pantry and breakfast area. It might also be possible to reverse position of refrig vs D.O.

I guessed at scale, so the second one may be too tight to fit. But I did like how the staggered line of cabinetry on right sort of mirrors the staggered line of the outside walls. In both cases, I added a niche to the dining room that could hold a sideboard.

Okay - last comment (I'm starting to feel like I'm developing OCD!)
Read link in cbfromga's post re: the glowing white kitchen, and it made me think of this update.

Here is a link that might be useful: thanks to cbfromga

How do you feel about moving the kitchen to the lower ceiling height area and your desk area to where your working kitchen area is? That way your kitchen would be equally convienent to the breakfast area and the dining room. Also is the entrance area near the pantry movable?

I'm back again after a trip to meet the KD at the cabinet place to discuss refining the architect's layout. Thanks again for the great ideas and suggestions - he agreed with so many of them!

mjlb, You've been busy! You have some really creative ideas, there. The idea of coming through the dining room wall is really intriguing to me - I think it would fill in some of that space to the right. I am definitely going to think about this (though may be a tough sell to H, since the dining room is a finished space)!

I like the idea of a back wall with DO, but my concern is that the back of the DO would block the view to the kitchen and much of the back window. KD suggested refining the the pantry wall(see new floorplan) with some additional endpanels, which I hadn't considered. I don't think anything I do over there will be perfect.

mom2lilenj, Yes, we have considered doing a larger version of what we have now, that is an L shaped kitchen with island against the right hand side wall with the peninsula dividing the space between the current breakfast area and a back wall of appliances. Desk would have gone where the back pantry wall is in the version I have shared here. We would then have to deal with that whole fireplace wall - it was $$$ to outfit a second fireplace and wall of built ins that would have been necessary there. There was also a lot of wasted space in the space where the current cooktop and sink are located. Advantage is that it's a lot closer to the dining room. I will have to dig up the floorplan of that version of things to show you. Everyone seems to think that by flipping the plan I get a much larger and more gracious space, but I haven't totally given up thinking about this, either.

{{gwi:1982234}}

"I like the idea of a back wall with DO, but my concern is that the back of the DO would block the view to the kitchen and much of the back window." I agree that it's always nice to be able to see a window. But I had also thought blocking view of kitchen from living room might be desirable, if the living room is used formally. Maybe not so important if it's used informally.

It's a bit related to the "main entrance" query in earlier post. The plans I marked up make productive use of the 'vacant' square footage, but I continually debated which view was more important -- the one from breakfast area, or from pantry area entrance. I could see how your most recent plan could maybe do both, if built-in cabinetry on living room wall and dining room walls have a very furniture look, or are actually furniture.

I'll be out of computer range for a week, but I hope you keep us posted on your progress -- I'm sure you'll end up with a gorgeous kitchen.

mjlb, To elaborate about the living room/foyer situation -one would come in through the front door and the opening to the kitchen is pretty much straight ahead. Also, contrary to the way this is drawn, there's really no issue with line of sight from the living room into the kitchen at all - the space you see at the bottom of the drawing is all hallway. There is actually a wall just across the foyer from the back wall of that staircase.

It's funny that you mention furniture styled cabinetry on the LR and DR wall - that is exactly what the KD suggested, too. We discussed the idea of pulling the upper cabinets down to a height more typical of a desk and making the lines of the piece go in and out, rather than just straight across. He thought that rather than a built in wet bar I might consider a hutch type of piece for the dining room wall.

Some of his other suggestions - center the sink on the island. It's a big island, but the sink in the corner gets in the way of taking food from the fridge and putting it down. If I had to choose keep this sink as the primary and do a second one either at a wet bar or at the window. Most of the year, the one by the window would be most practical for a clean up zone. While entertaining I might like having the bar sink, though.

Since we have the space and are looking to balance the two sides of the room, he also suggested moving the island over so that there is 48" of clearance (room for two cooks). The architect suggested I be sure which I prefer first -it's an extra step or two.

Thanks for all your help and have a good week away!

mom2lilenj - I forgot to say that we do have some flexibility as to the main entrance to the kitchen (the one near the pantry). We have played around with shifting it to the left or the right or even opening it up completely in various plans.

Also, here is an earlier version of the plan as promised- it's considerably smaller kitchen (yet more expensive cabinetry cost by far due to that fireplace wall and the back wall of that peninsula) and all under the eight foot ceiling, so gives up that dramatic higher ceiling effect. It does stay closer to the dining room. Ignore the furniture placement - I would have had the breakfast table next to the fireplace and chairs in the nook -and no chairs in front of that back door. Thanks again!

{{gwi:1982235}}

^^^ Wanted to add that the living room representation is not completely accurate here, either . We have room to open the door one or two feet on the LR wall side and as much as we want on the side that faces the hallway.