my experience with this issue: my cabinetmaker and i planned for the cabinets to go with crown flush to ceiling. the problem arose during detailed measurements when we determined the ceiling was out of level (we already knew it was, we just did not know how much). It turned out to be approx 1 3/4" over 5 feet run of cabs which is a fair amount. my house is old and the house has settled. we agreed to see what the differences would be after drywall was up and he warned me we might have to take your approach. leveling the ceiling was ruled out as the windows and doors were not going to be changed so it would distort other areas of the kitchen. so in the end we had to install with a floating crown and "let the shadow be my friend" to help camafloge the crooked ceiling issue. i fought to not install this way but in the end the problem was bad enough that we determined it was the best option.

so, my point of this long winded story: do you have a crooked ceiling where you need this configuration? if not, pay the bucks and get what you want. i would not have done it this way if i could have avoided it. i spent hours with the GC and cab maker mocking up alternatives and we just could not find a better alternative.

I'm afraid I have to agree with you. I don't like it either, it's the shadows. When you have company it begs to ask why didn't you go to the ceiling? You will be explaining that for the next 20 years. I do think that you will grow to dislike it more and more. From my own experience the things I let go and thought I would learn to live with and eventually like I hate more and more everyday. I didn't want to be a "problem" for someone else or have a confrontation or hurt anyone's feelings. Now I feel sick every time I walk into my master bath because I settled for someone elses vision and mistakes. I'm sorry dear one I hope I didn't say anything that you didn't already feel or think but I have never seen that done before and I would not think of it as furniture.

We planned for our cabinets to go to the top knowing that our our ceiling was out of level.
Here's a shot.

Your cabinets are lovely by the way, I am thinking of going for a similar cabinet style and finish.

I'm afraid that I agree with the other posters, 3 inches, that seems like a pretty large gap. And unless the pic is deceiving, it appears pretty uniform around the room, so you could add an extra level of trim. $2100 seems like a big additional expense right now, I am sure you put a lot of thought (and money) into your current design, and have to question if you will you kick yourself later for not fixing it if it is at all monetarily feasible.

Our ceiling doesn't appear to be more than off anywhere by more than an eight of an inch, and I know now that could have easily been remedied. I think my KD genuinly likes this look, and when he first described it to me I somehow pictured the gap as not really being noticeable.

gr8day, you didn't say anything I haven't already thought. Like you, I hate confronting people and don't want to hurt anyone's feelings (even when I'm paying them a great deal of money). I know you are right that I will probably dislike it more and more over time and it is worth the extra money to get what I want

Wilty, I like how your cabinets were done and you are right that I never would have noticed any difference. Hopefully we can do something like that.
Thanks, kellynoelle. The cabinets are from Cabico and the stain is "sumatra"

This just happened to me. This is NOT right. You have space above those cabinets to do a 3 piece crown. The piece of crown goes to the ceiling and then you run a "filler" piece under that then a third smaller piece of molding goes along the top of your cabinets.

Unfortunately for me I only had 3 inches of space total to work with above my cabinets so my crown is a bit crooked but it now touches the ceiling.

I would ask your GC to change it. Show him some photos of what you want so that he understands how you want it to look.

Good luck! It is your kitchen. Every time you walk into it you should smile :)

I just noticed that you said it would be $2100 to fix it. That seems really high. If it was up to me I would order the right materials then hire a finishing carpenter to come in and do it the right way.

If your intention was to have a kitchen where the cabinets looked like furniture you would have an "unfitted" kitchen and the rest of the cabinet (bottoms etc) would follow the same theme. I'm guessing that that is not what you wanted. I don't like the shadows. I would have it fixed somehow.
And seeing part of the hood to me makes the kitchen look somewhat unfinished.

I'm mildly nonplused by your GC's insistence that it will ruin >$2000 trim if they remove and reinstall it. Well, sure, if they rip it off like wild apes. But it can be done carefully, too -- I know, because we've done exactly that. I may be wrong, but that sounds like a "my hair hurts so I can't go to school" excuse to me. (He may be in love with his idea of a gap and wants to dissuade you from changing it by any means? Or is just wanting to avoid the work?)

So anyways, yes, it can be done. Like Will, we also went for fascia boards to hide the difference. And yes, I'd do the same if I were you. Courage!

Not the best photo, but there's over an inch difference between the far left and far right of these two cabinets' crowns:

question for circus peanut - what is the dimension of your top piece of molding that runs along the ceiling -it looks very thin which visually hides it more. it seems a bit more obvious with wills and i am thinking it is because the crown is thicker in his so more evident? it is also fortunate that your uneven run is broken up in the middle by the range hood, it hides it a bit more i think.

now you are making me want to tear mine out and do the same. oh god, mine are caulked and painted and everything.... tell me i am crazy to consider at this point.

helayne,
Nice cabinets! You are correct, those look bad with the gap. Apparently the KD does not know a competent installer. There is no reason the crown cannot go to the ceiling. There may be an issue with tearing it off, but there is no way labor and materials should cost 2 grand! I'd do it for a grand and be tickled. Methinks the KD is trying to scare you. He wants it done and over with so he can take the money and run. I'd hold his feet to the fire and tell him if he wants his reputation to remain intact, he'd better get with the program and at a much lower cost!
Good luck!

Looks great so far. I would have them do the crown flush with the ceiling. This weird shadow looks bad and I think it is the short cut way of avoiding an issue. They can definitely take the crown off and reinstall with another trim piece. It should not be expensive.

hi babuschka,
the trim at the top is simple 1" cove, set on a 5" flat fascia board, set on a 1/2" bullnosed fillet. We were trying to harmonize with the proportions of the existing window and door moldings in the house:

Do you have your invoice from the original cabinetry order? Maybe you can see how much the trim cost so you have a price point to discuss with the KD and contractor.

Also, I was thinking that you may not need the crown molding going across the range hood. I've see alot of pics where there is no molding over range hood. Just thought I'd mention this to you as an option.

Lastly, I know you are probably anxious to get finished, but if you have a good carpenter or kitchen installer working there now, and you have already decided to redo the molding (it seems thats the way you are leaning), then maybe have them take off the crown molding now and see if any gets damaged. If they are careful, you may only have to reorder a small piece (or maybe none) instead of all the crown (and facia board). They can reinstall crown using those same nail holes, so small holes should not be a problem. Just keep in mind that the holidays are quickly approaching and whether you are comfortable with have no crown molding for a while if you rip it off now and reorder.

Thanks everyone. You have given me a lot to think about. I have let my KD and GC make me feel like I was in the wrong here and that this was what it was supposed to look like. Obviously I need to stop being such a shrinking violet and stand up for the kitchen I want. I will tell them today I want it fixed and I want to see if the current molding will really be unusable and why it cost so much for new molding.

I'm glad you're doing that. I was going to pipe in to say that our previous home's kitchen had a slope and our crown went to the ceiling. I had the discussion with my contractor on what to do. I remember he shaved a little off the fascia (I think) to make it work. I'm the only person who ever noticed the difference in the slope of one end of the kitchen to the other.

I wouldn't accept your crown as is. It's your kitchen, not your KD's.

Another suggestion...do you want the crown in front of the hood? You could remove it from there all together. I usually see chimney hoods without anything in front of them anyway. But if you want the crown in front of it, that's your preference.

Good luck!

Lots of kitchens are designed this way. It's NOT wrong. It's just a different look. One that you have decided you don't care for. Again, that's fine. But there have been plenty of people who use a shadow line as a design feature in a kitchen and do not look at it as a mistake. And, it's something you looked at on a rendering and agreed to. That's not a slam to you, but you are changing your mind here for something different after the fact of install. If you want to change it, it is only right that you should bear the cost of the change.

Crown molding is expensive. Often easily $200 per 8' stick and up, depending on wood and finish. And you are talking about adding another molding piece to the mix to take it to the ceiling. Your pic isn't clear enough for me to see the detail on the molding, or which wood your cabinets might be (maple?) or the size of your kitchen. But it doesn't look like you have a lot of cuts to generate waste here. No stacked cabinets or in and outs. So say you need 4 8' sticks of crown molding. $800. Luckily straight stock/filler is cheap. Maybe only $75 per piece. Another $300 in material. I'd expect that the material costs to be around $1100-$1500 depending on all of the variables.

Applying molding is difficult. Professional cabinet installers that some of my customers have used have charged anywhere from $10 to $20 a linear foot depending on the complexity of the kitchen, and I am in a low cost area of the country. So, if you have 32' linear feet of molding ordered for the kitchen, and it's a very simple one piece job with no blocking needed, then the labor charge would be around $320 to apply the molding. You are talking about using a filler piece which adds another 32' of molding to the pic. Double the molding pieces installed. Double the price. $640 install price. That's not including the demo charge, which if you have to be very careful will take a lot more time to not damage the cabinets. Say another $100 for the careful removal of the old molding.

You're at $1840 by my figures, and I've figured on the lowish side for materials and labor.

If the look bothers you enough to spend that additional 2K, then it will probably be some of the best expenditure in your kitchen. If it really irritates you and you don't spend the money, it will always irritate you and you'll keep looking at it. Or, it's possible that you could come around to the view of it being the design feature that it was intended to be and save 2K. It's all in your viewpoint of the situation.

Lots of kitchens are designed this way. It's NOT wrong. It's just a different look."

Really? I've never seen crown molding go right across a chimney hood like that, much less doing so 3" down from the ceiling, MUCH less exposing the actual ducting above the chimney, which looks like it's an inch larger on each side.

Maybe it's a regional thing, but I would personally be a little leery of the aesthetics and ability of a designer or installer who had no problem putting this in (from OP's photo album):

PS: I love your tile, helayne! And approving a "1 to 2 inches float" is not the same as getting a 3" gap -- stick to your guns. The prices quoted above would be heinously bloated in my area; please consider hiring a real trim carpenter to fix it up for you at a much lower cost without the KD/commercial markup -- unless you feel you have a chance at the original guys remedying it for you at a discount because of their error in making the gap so much more noticeable.

I agree.

This is a mistake. I would be horrified to do this to a client. Go back to the drawings the KD supplied and measure exactly. I can't imagine this is correct. When you find the mistake, have the KD pay the contractor for mounting a top mount fascia and then another crown.

My guess is the KD ordered cabs too short or cabico messed up and the kd wnats to move on to the next kitchen.
Typically speaking the cabs go to the ceiling or if the ceiling is tall enough a reasonable amount of vertical space is left so it looks intentional.

helayne --

As a metter of principle, I think no one should demur from going to the mat with a KDs and GCs if the issue is really important to the client.

That said, I also think that the shadow cast in your photos is largely from your flash. I suspect that your regular installed lighting doesn't make it as obvious, although perhaps daylight from the window over your sink might have some effect.

Great kitchen. I hope you are able to sort it out to your satisfaction.

thanks circus peanut! the closer pic helps. the molding approach you took looks good but does not align with my molding around the rest of the house, that was part of the dilemma in my case (thanks for reminding me...)

i do not love the floating molding but given the magnitude of the measurement issue seemed like the best alternative. you can tell i am still struggling to accept it myself but i need to remind myself we spent HOURS mocking up different scenarios and what we ended up seemed to be the best. will continue to percolate.

BTW, i value geeens opinion and input, he has been very helpful to me in the recent past in resolving a very major countertop issue and agree if it was spec'd this way a change order may be reasonable to get it changed.

When I was designing our kitchen, our KD discouraged a space of less then 6 to 8 inches.

Traditionally, how much space ('or ") is suppose to be between the ceiling and the top of the crown molding?

mine was done with 1" of space from crown to ceiling, except where there is the uneven ceiling issue where it is more. we tried to fool the eye a bit by splitting the difference a bit to compensate. the cabinet maker i worked with has had this issue before with uneven ceilings and if the issue is relatively minor, shaving the faccia or building it up can work quite well. when you get beyond a certain point that approach becomes no longer feasible and other approaches have to be taken, like circus peanut has shown.

my GC was adamant that the crown should remain level and straight and not follow the ceiling, he felt it would begin to look like the winchester house. i am not sure there is a right answer, it comes down to preferences. it was stressful for me as the issue was far more pronounced than anticipated which required quick decisions, never something i am comfortable with.

Here are some abinets with shadow line. It is a more modern look ususally done with no molding, but it has been done with traditional cabinets and molding as well.

The biggest issue is the exposed ducting of the range hood. The GC should have enclosed that in a drywall soffit after the cabinet install and before the molding install. Or else he should have communicated to the KD to order the additional $120 panel molding, $80 outside corner molding, and pay the cabinet installer the extra $50 to create a wood frame around the ducting to apply the matching cabinet color panel to.

And the KD should have known about how to do the horizontal "cheat" with solid stock to keep the crown molding level and explained that to the OP. It wouldn't have cost that much extra to do at the time of the install, and the existing molding wouldn't have been wasted. If the KD wasn't experienced enough to know how to do this, then the installer should have suggested it. However, something like that is also dependent on the knowledge and skill of the installer. It's all a partnership, and if either is inexperienced, some options are never put on the table because they aren't known.

I think this is more an excuse for an easy install than a style. It looks like stock cabinets thrown on the wall at worst and bad measurement at best...
Just my 2 cents

Wow, greendesigns, for a minute there,I though maybe you were my KD. You are right; I did sign off on this, and my only defense is that it looked much better in the rendering than it does in real life. I never doubted I would have to pay for this change; I had started doubing my own judgement and just wanted to get some other opinions. Thank you for laying out the costs, because we do live in a high cost area, so I can see the charges are not out of line. I like my KD and GC and I think they have been honest and upfront with me so far and though I could argue that I was told the gap wouldn't be more than two inches and it is actually three, the truth is I signed off on it and I just don't like the look.

Thanks Circuspeanut for posting the newer picture. I'm still trying to figure out how to post pictures without my son helping me. Also I need to find my camera and take some better quality photos. Unfortunately, those shadows aren't from my flash. They actually look worse in really life

I'm hoping the hood will look okay once the top duct is hidden. I realize that the hood might look better without the molding crossing it, but then what do we do about the cabinets on either side of it?

the for love of a house kitchen which is a classic vintage kitchen has done this as well but with what looks like the 1" gap, link below:

http://fortheloveofahouse.blogspot.com/2011/01/kitchen.html

You wrap the molding along the sides of the cabinet as you would if they were on the sides of a window:

{{!gwi}}

{{!gwi}}

I hope you are able to get it fixed. Looking at those photos "live wire oak" posted with the small space over the cabs...? ~it's just not desirable. I feel so bad for you, I hate confrontation especially with people that decide to draw a line in the sand and have no compassion for their customer even when it's their money that will be fixing it...the ego is a tricky thing to maneuver about.

Dont forget that some of the crown you take off can be reused, not all of it, but certainly some of it

We had an uneven ceiling and the installers put in a crown with 2 parts - one with a beaded detail that attached to the cabinets and then the other overlapped to go up to the ceiling. You can see the variation in height - on the left side the ceiling is quite a bit higher. We did specify for crown molding, I don't remember it being a huge up-charge.

Pardon the large image size - I figured it would make it easier to see the molding detail.

I agree it either needs to go all the way to the top or leave 6-8 inches (at least) to actually do something decorative with (pottery, greenery) - otherwise its just a dust/grime nightmare. An 8 ft ceiling doesn't lend itself to leaving that much unused space, nor do I think it really lends itself to using a "shadow" line.

Stand up and demand what you want. 2 grand is a lot of money yes. But if you have to pay for it, I'd still try to find a way to do it. I'm only assuming that you probably have to live with this kitchen a long long time. If you are only going to be there for say 2 years is it worth the extra? Also.. now that I think about it.. If I were buying and saw that, that would give me pause. Kitchens can sell a house.

I haven't read every post here, but if it is too costly to add molding. I would at least get rid of the molding that goes across your range hood, I think that looks odd and looks like a mistake. I'm not crazy about the gap between the cabs and the ceiling but could probably live with that, but the molding across the range hood would have to go.

Circuspeanut is right that you can remove the nailed on crown without damaging it. When my *handyman* (not a cabinetmaker) removed our existing cabinets from the kitchen, his guys carefully took off the nailed on crown moulding, and they did not break one single piece of it, and it was very tall.

I agree with others about wrapping the crown to the wall on the cabinets above the stove. The idea of a hood is that it's supposed to give the idea that it's a chimney, going up through the ceiling.

Your kitchen is beautiful other than the issue under discussion, and thanks for posting this because I'm going through the exact same kind of problem with my cabinetmaker re my range hood design. This thread and what everyone has said has given me the courage to stand up and ask for what I really want, and not settle in the hopes that some day I'll like it better.

Perfect timing. Our initial planning is reaching this stage. Not really sure what the ceiling will look like when the old soffits come down:-( so our KD came up with a crown and bullnose combo, but this still leaves a gap. With no curves on the cabinetry, I'm liking the pix showing a combo with flat fascia boards.

Does anyone have a suggestion for a minimum ceiling-cabinet gap for installing some type of up-lighting? I don't want to get into pot lights.

helayne: Afraid I have to agree that it looks like your designer just forgot something or mis-measured... especially with the exposed duct. The gap seems to be an odd depth, but perhaps that's the photo perspective.

Thanks for all the pix everyone... another good wake-up call!

It is a "look" I had two kitchen designers were suggesting for my kitchen. I don't like it myself, I'd rather have it go to the ceiling.

Personally, I think the part of your kitchen that is bothering me the most is the hood area. I think if that returned to the wall on either side, I don't think the shadow line would look weird.

I'm not sure how expensive your crown is, but I don't see why they couldn't try to remove without damaging it, I would assume it was put in with a pin nailer.

I'm a KD and I've seen it done that way too. But I don't like the looks of it unless on a modern design.

Here in the mid-west, my price would be about $1100 to re-do it.

$320 for a basic crown
$284 for profiled solid stock
$500 for labor...removal and re-do.

You could re-use the crown you have if you apply fillers (cheaper) instead of solid stock...FLUSH with the frames. A good carpenter should be able to remove the crown without too much damage and in some cases....removal in sections.

This look will not be as nice as some of the other pics people posted, but it would save you the cost of the crown.

It wouldn't have looked so bad if they hadn't run it across the range hood...and just mitred the crown down the cabinet end panels.

If I were you....I would ask them to re-do it....but for them to sell the materials 'at their cost' without markup....and the same for the labor. They are out nothing really...but will make you a happy customer!

"I'm mildly nonplused by your GC's insistence that it will ruin >$2000 trim if they remove and reinstall it."

Removing stain grade wood and putting it back up is a lot harder than painted surfaces.

The inevitable dings in painted trim can be repaired and the paint touched up.

Dings in a clear finish and the coloring under the finish are much harder.

There WILL be some loss of the material no matter how carefully it is removed.

You may also encounter color shifts with new material from normal batch to batch color variation.

Were you there to watch them while they were putting this in? This seems to be a design issue that was decided on before ordering. To me, it should reach the ceiling - or at least get pretty darn close. Personally, I would be quite annoyed with your kitchen design's stance. It doesn't look furniture grade to me, it looks incomplete and would annoy me. But that's my opinion.

My ceiling is 8'2", just finished a remodel with 42" cabinets with crown. Since nothing at all was level or straight including walls, floors and ceilings, somehow we magically got it all to work. But there is one tiny section of crown that doesn't perfectly hit the ceiling but you'd never know. But definitely not a 3" gap.

$2000+ to fix this seems a little out there. I'd order the new materials and hire someone else to install cheaper. And I'd watch them while they're installing it to make sure it's done right and lines up like you'd like.

I think the bigger problem with that design in your kitchen is that you have a height where it is probably best to go all the way to the ceiling like most people said. I have about a 6 inch gap on mine and it looks just dandy to me, but something about how limited the gap is on yours is unusual. I also agree with the statements above that your range hood set up is not the normal way either, especially for that type of vent hood. Make it the way YOU want it, because otherwise you'll always notice it in the long run. Here is to some good luck for you getting exactly what you want. Cheers.

hi brickeyee,

Of course there will be some loss, but to re-charge for an entire kitchen of new trim seems a bit premature, no?

Maybe I'm overestimating the skills of the average bear, but we removed the stained cherry crown trim (twice!) that came with our used cabinets in order to re-configure it for our own kitchen. It was not that difficult to sand and re-finish the dinged parts, as well as stain and finish a few new pieces of cherry lumber to match, like the flat fascia stock in my photo above. (Mohawk makes some great tone finish lacquers that virtually mimic factory finish when sprayed with an HPLV.)

Is it a tedious job? Yes -- so perhaps they're charging the OP in advance for anticipated labor?

A cabinet maker might go to all of the trouble to sand and restain dinged pieces if he's the one who built the cabinets, but there is no way your average cabinet installer would ever do that. No one is as careful as a homeowner who has all the time in the world to be very careful with their own stuff. A paid installer who has another job to move onto quickly will remove the moldings, yes, but if you want the dings to end up on the molding rather than the cabinets, you'd better plan on reordering all of the molding.

Cabinets are not like off the rack clothing that you can take back to Macy's and return if you don't like it. If you change your mind after you sign off on the design, purchase and install the cabinets, then anything different will cost you. Installation is the last step in the chain and it constitutes complete acceptance of the already approved design. This is yet another reason why it's very important to be there when your cabinets are installed. If the OP had been there when the first piece of crown went up and didn't like it, it would have been an easy matter to put that on hold, order the solid stock, pay a bit extra to the installer, and reschedule him for just the crown.

In a cheap cabinet line and a cheap labor market, the changes discussed would be $1100-$1200. In a medium high cabinet line in an expensive labor market, you could be talking 4-5K. So, I'd say that 2K is on the low side for the changes. A good compromise for all concerns would be Kompy's suggestion that the OP pay the actual costs. However, don't think that it will magically save you hundreds of dollars. Cabinet markups aren't as high as most people seem to think!

Just saw a new post on the blog Cote de Texas and thought of you.

She has pics of a lovely kitchen where the tops of the cabs look just like yours.

If you check it out, you'll be able to see what a finished kitchen with that style of hanging the cabs looks like.

HTH.