He'll love the opportunity to have a project 2x as costly as the original. More money in his pocket for sure. The question is, will you love it enough to justify the costs vs. the benefits?

Ok, you're all scaring me! Version 1 of the plan was just bumping out a corner, adding about 20 sf where that back door is now--the larger remodel was going to happen later. Version 2 was to go ahead and do it now, at first with only minimal changes in appliance locations, but then--prior to cabinet makers showing up for estimate, with a peninsula. We don't have estimates or even complete mock-ups from cabinet makers yet, and to be honest, not even a contract or formal drawings with GC yet. (We have his initial proposal re: version 2, which we have been reviewing.) So in terms of how big of a change this is from the version 2 proposal, yes, it means knocking down part of another wall, and relocating plumbing to island (instead of peninsula, which would have been a bit easier I'm sure), but other than that, not a lot is changing. Range will still be in same place, as will fridge. Getting the proper electrical over to oven and microwave shouldn't be an issue since we're already pulling up the existing wood floor to replace, and they were already going to be in new location than present. Should it really be a hugely expensive change? My contractor has been very flexible to date (as have we, accommodating his schedule with other projects, family, etc.), so I'm crossing my fingers and hoping for the best! And yes, it's time and materials.

A slightly tweaked plan is below. I narrowed the island a bit so we have 42" aisle on the work side, as well as the stools side--thanks, sena01! Still have 36" on back door side, but there won't be as much traffic there. Lavender lass, I know you keep suggesting the main sink under the window (always nice), but that seems to shrink our island length too much. (The view out back isn't all that anyway, and the view into the DR takes in a wall of windows, too, so I don't feel like we'll lose anything in reality.) The aisle from the DR to the basement and pantry gets a lot of use, so we need to keep that wide enough.

I also swapped the fridge and oven locations. I like the idea of having a bulky item there, so the small wall doesn't feel so obvious, but the swap will make it a little sleeker. By switching to a gas range instead of just cooktop, I can go with a single electric wall oven and put the microwave with it.

This afternoon I moved fridge and built a life-size mock-up of the island using the kitchen table, cardboard, etc., and it feels pretty good. My husband and kids liked it too, so I feel like we're on the right track--if it doesn't break the bank. I'll see if I can get a decent photo of my creation...

For perspective, our current oven/cooktop/microwave hood combo has 9" of countertop on one side and 15" on the other--a cooking nightmare, especially if two of us our trying to use the 3 appliances. The fridge is alone in a corner, with no landing place anywhere nearby--and the freezer door can't even open all the way. We have a whole lot of open floor space in the middle, though!

If you don't even have a contract and are just getting estimates then relax. Tell the contractor to hold on. Focus on getting the best layout then go back to the contractor for estimates.

Regarding clearances, since you're custom-fitting your own kitchen in a fixed space, I'd toss any generic guidelines in the trash.

What is needed beyond actual physical room to open doors fully and to slide appliances in is very personal. Given the important tradeoffs that every decision in a kitchen requires, you should make up your own mind about this, with every inch allocated where it will do the most good. Many pro cooks' own kitchens bear no relation whatsoever to the usual. They do their own thing.

As did I. We have only 2 people in the kitchen normally, not exactly a crowd, and our fannies are old buddies. My island is 35" away from the stove counter, a distance decided on by mocking everything up with boxes and plywood counters, actual oven and DW set in place so I could try moving around open doors, etc. I sized and moved the island back and forth by the quarter inch until it was exactly the way I wanted it. I decided up to about 42" was farther than I liked for efficiently working back and forth, and I never considered farther for a second. That's for others.

I used this to get everything I wanted. I didn't give up ANYTHING significant and I always got more in return. No wishing I'd done something a little different.

We didn't do seating, so no stools, but if we had I absolutely would have brought in stools, sat on them, practiced elbow swings, etc. When your kitchen is complete, will larger friends or growing kids be hanging off the ends of the island or will it be long enough for 3? I watched one guy just yesterday lean his right arm on an island to chat, with his left leg and arm in the aisle on the left. What happens when someone turns to chat with people in the dining room?

Perspective on this clearance business is good. For instance, millions of people have lived in homes with 30" wide halls and 28" doorways and never knew they would someday be considered so seriously dysfunctional that any sacrifices required to "fix" them need not be considered. Somewhat larger than that is usually better, sure, so we typically go that way now, but what is the COST in pleasure and function when more in one place must mean less in others?

I so agree with Rosie. Don't let people scare you with "rules" about aisle width. You have just shrunk your eating space to 18" in favor of a 42" aisle when you don't even have a wall there anymore! In our old kitchen, we had eating counters that were 19" deep and that just did not work when people actually wanted to eat there. Coffee and an iPad is one thing. But now consider an 11" plate in the space. Nothing much can be put in front of it, only on the sides. And for your middle seat, the space will be even smaller because the faucet will take up space. I would definitely go back to a 36" aisle behind the stools.

I like your new fridge placement much better. Before, someone had to travel far to get a snack. Now it is closer to the entrance to the kitchen. Good decision to go with the range. Not only do you save space but you also get the option for dual fuel cooking. Some people say that a microwave should be near the fridge but I have never felt that to be important so I think that placement is fine.

I really like your new design.

We opened up our narrow kitchen to the dining room by tearing down half of the wall too. Best decision we made. It feels separate enough but open at the same time. I posted a bunch of pictures some time back.

"If you don't even have a contract and are just getting estimates then relax. Tell the contractor to hold on. Focus on getting the best layout then go back to the contractor for estimates."

Yeah, after all, the time of those cabinet subs is worth nothing. Let them estimate jobs that will never happen.

Sorry, but until your'e positive of what you're going to build, you have no business getting estimates.

I respectfully disagree with Trebruchet's following statement; "Sorry, but until your'e positive of what you're going to build, you have no business getting estimates." Having estimates in hand is a vital part of the formula when deciding the scope of your renovation and what you are going to build. In good faith home owners should not frivolously waste any professionals time requesting estimates on work they have no intention of performing. With that said it is the responsibility of professionals to provide accurate pricing information to homeowners so that homeowners can make an informed decision with regards to how to move forward with their project and with whom they choose to have complete the work on their project.

Trebruchet, you actually just agreed with me. Until the OP is sure of the plan don't let the contractor do anymore estimate work.

Many lines of work require you to give estimates for jobs that never happen. This job is happening, just the scope and details maybe changing.

Attached is a link for 31 rules for kitchen design. Consider these guidelines not rules.

Here is a link that might be useful: 31 rules for kitchen design

Professionals do not have endless amounts of time to devote to giving estimates. The overwhelming majority of home owners do not have endless amounts of money to complete home renovations. In a productive working relationships their is effective communication between the professional and the home owner in order to formulate a plan and provide direction. The scope and details of this job may very well change depending upon the price for the given work.

As a licensed and insured contractor, I was called recently to estimate alternatives for failed tile on an oceanfront 2nd floor condo lanai. After a small section of tile removal, I offered to polish the concrete under the tile to see if that may be an alternative to replacement. The homeowner wouldn't give me the code to get back in, but promised to buzz me when I went out to get my tools. When I called from the gate, her son promised to let me in. Several minutes later when I called again, he promised again but did nothing. I won't call a third time, so I left.

Within the hour I got a call from the daughter, asking what happened. I explained that since neither her mother or brother showed any respect for the value of my time, we weren't right for each other.

Their "free" estimate probably cost me about $200.00, a cost of doing business, but I'm grateful I dumped them before we had a contract where they could have drawn serious blood.

As a licensed and insured contractor, I was called recently to estimate alternatives for failed tile on an oceanfront 2nd floor condo lanai. After a small section of tile removal, I offered to polish the concrete under the tile to see if that may be an alternative to replacement. The homeowner wouldn't give me the code to get back in, but promised to buzz me when I went out to get my tools. When I called from the gate, her son promised to let me in. Several minutes later when I called again, he promised again but did nothing. I won't call a third time, so I left.

Within the hour I got a call from the daughter, asking what happened. I explained that since neither her mother or brother showed any respect for the value of my time, we weren't right for each other.

Their "free" estimate probably cost me about $200.00, a cost of doing business, but I'm grateful I dumped them before we had a contract where they could have drawn serious blood.

Sorry to hear you had difficulties with a client, Trebruchet. I didn't mean for this to turn into a thread about clients wasting subcontractors' time, but since it did, perhaps I should clarify that it was my builder who called in the cabinet contractors to give estimates, not me. Yes, I agreed to it, but it was based on a verbal plan of "I think we want to go with a peninsula here, a full wall of cabs there, etc." If I had been told we couldn't call them in for estimates until we had final plans drawn up, I wouldn't have proceeded yet. And I'm pretty sure my GC didn't expect us to go with BOTH cabinet makers anyway, so someone was indeed estimating for a job they won't get. That's called competition.

And since you brought it up, I'll add that homeowners also do not have unlimited time and resources. I recently spent a lot of time setting up appointments with both drainage and electrical contractors to get bids on work we were planning to do. I did a lot of research, made a lot of calls, set up a lot of appointments, and invited a lot of these folks into my house, where I discussed our needs and showed them around. Then they left, with a promise to get back to me with estimates. In about half the cases the estimates never materialized. I followed up, but never heard back. Those were lost hours on my part, but I guess that's just the name of the game. I found other contractors who were happy to do the work.

Thanks, Rosie and nycbluedevil. I didn't want to turn off future buyers with aisles that feel too narrow to most folks, but it's good to hear that those "rules" are somewhat subjective. I mocked it up with a 42 and it felt plenty spacious, so just did a mini-mock-up at 39" which feels good, too--and easier to turn and place things on the counter behind. I feel comfortable expanding the island width again, especially after hearing your experiences with 19" being too shallow for eating. Thanks! (And that "our fannies are old buddies" line got a good laugh!)

I'm also thinking we might ditch that shallow row of base cabinets under the window, in favor of using that corner space as a mini-office. That will allow us to go a little longer on the island, with maybe even a bit of overhang on the window side for someone to pull up a stool at the end, too!

Thanks to all for your words of wisdom.

I worried a lot about aisles and I'm glad I did. I like having lots of people in my kitchen - my children and dh helping, visitors visiting, etc. Remember that 42" between cabinets becomes 39" between granite overhangs. I have that in my cooking aisle and it is fine, but a few more inches would be better, and less would be bad.
If you have to make compromises, and understand the trade-offs, then go right ahead. But do consider that the children you mentioned aren't going to be getting smaller.

Treb I believe it was you who told another GWer that "their circumstances were irrelevant." Please correct me if I am wrong. Irregardless that sentiment holds true here. To say a homeowner has no business getting an estimate on work they are not positive about is imprudent. An estimate is just that an estimate and not a contract. You are free to charge for you estimates if you like or implement retainers for your consult services just as a homeowner is free to get estimates in order to make an educated decision as to how to proceed. As your example points out many estimates end up being and informal consult of sorts in which both sides can see if they would like to further their working relationship.

Successful contractors seek to minimize time and money wasted on things of no real value to themselves or their customers. They also look for ways to provide more value to themselves and their customers. Every contractor who has been around long enough has missed out on jobs for a variety of reasons, sometimes both parties or the work in question just aren't the right fit. Wasting time can be viewed as wasting money just as investing time can be viewed as making money. Haphazardly putting together estimates just to get them done leads to a lot of pitfalls. The ideal is to strike a balance by putting together a quality estimate in the least amount of time and even then there are no guarantees that a contractor will be hired. US employers lose an estimated $134 billion annually as a result of employees wasting time, it is one of the costs of doing business.

Good point, kksmama. I'll keep testing it out, just to be sure. We're in one of those old houses like Rosie mentioned, where most of the doorways are 28"--the pantry door is only27"! Thankfully our hallways aren't too narrow, and the doorways between the foyer and LR and DR are lovely leaded glass double doors. Our widened kitchen opening will actually better mirror those openings, so that's a bonus. I can't believe we didn't seriously consider opening up that wall earlier!

ecarson, did you see the lay-out I posted on your earlier thread? I didn't see that you had started this new thread when I posted on that one.

Not sure why you think you need to go with 36" aisles. Your kitchen - if I counted the squares correctly - is 150" wide.
150
- 25.5 cab plus counter overhang depth
- 42 - aisle between island and perimeter run
- 42 - aisle between island and DR wall
-------
40.5 remaining, enough for an island with 24" cabs, 1.5" counter overhang and a 15" seating overhang, sufficient knee room for a 42" high bar, provided you don't add decorative panels on the backside of the island.

Aisle between counter and fridge front will be closer to 39", going by the depth of my CD fridge.

If you eliminate the cabs running along the basement stairs wall, you can have the sink and DW on the exterior wall *and* a 7' long island. You'll need to do a 42" corner sink cab or a 30" or 33" sink cab. You have 90" of wall on that exterior wall but I'm assuming that some of that includes molding around the door so you won't want to or be able to run the cabs and counter that whole length.

Something like this:
{{gwi:1979654}}

I swapped out the pantry swing door for a pocket door while I was at it. There are such great space savers. The fridge is smack up against the pantry wall but you can always open the pocket door when you need to swing the door wide to access the drawers. Not ideal but doable, especially since I didn't want to steal more space from around the cook top.

With the above plan, I wouldn't do a raised bar on the island. That would give you a huge clear space for baking projects, etc.

You could increase the seating overhang to 17", IMO. We have 40" between island (no seating) and kitchen table and it's never felt crowded, even though it's the main path from front hallway to FR. I never realized it was less than recommended until I read about the NKBA guidelines here.

Here is a link that might be useful: your earlier lay-out thread

This post was edited by lisa_a on Mon, Dec 2, 13 at 2:07

I decided to copy and paste what I posted in your earlier thread into this thread to keep the conversation all in one thread.

Your current plan (this is the one you posted in the earlier thread) would require lots of walking around the kitchen to prep a meal. Here's an idea that tightens up your work triangle and alleviates some of your traffic pattern concerns, especially by the back door. With this lay-out, the back door can swing wide open against the adjacent wall.

{{gwi:1978483}}

This is a galley set-up, one of the most efficient lay-outs, but with an island instead of a wall.

Oops, forgot to note a few measurements. The island is 108" long, counter edge to counter edge. Aisle measurements are counter to counter, counter to wall, or counter to fridge door (basing it on my CD fridge dimensions).

I moved the pantry wall forward, opting to use that space (a 30" aisle is really tight) for more hidden storage. The wall ovens are next to it. When the oven doors are open, passage to the pantry will be blocked but at least you have the option of standing in front of the oven to pull items out.

I shifted the cook top down. I don't think it's critical to center it on the can light. In fact, you may end up with more glare coming off the hood with the cook top centered on the light. You have 30" of counter and cab storage on either side of the cook top.

The fridge abuts the must-stay wall with an 18" deep floor to ceiling cabinet to its right, something like this:

[

[Transitional Kitchen[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/transitional-kitchen-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_709~s_2112) by Portland Interior Designers & Decorators Vicki Simon Interior Design

You could also opt to have closed storage below and open above. But this piece would make good use of that narrow space without blocking the window.

Sink, DW and MW are in the island with seating for 4 facing the cook top wall.

The swing door to the basement has been replaced with a sliding barn door like this:

[

[Rustic Home Office[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/rustic-home-office-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_732~s_2111) by Beverly Architects & Designers Siemasko + Verbridge

mamadadapaige did this swap in her kitchen and it worked out perfectly. Wish I could find the link to her finished kitchen for you. Maybe someone else can help with that.

Couple questions for you.

Is the window on the back wall counter height? If not, can you replace it with a counter height window? I have an idea to give you an L-shaped kitchen with an island but it hinges on that window's height.

Are you dead-set on a cook top/wall oven set-up? Or would you be willing to do a range with a second oven below the counter? Or maybe a cook top with both ovens installed below the counter? That would allow for more counter space in your kitchen. NKBA recommends a minimum of 155" of counter space for cook top/wall oven set-up but obviously, not everyone can do that. This lay-out comes close at 132" however, you could increase your counter space if you were willing to put the ovens below the counter. Just a thought.

Another option with the above plan is to move the sink and DW to the long wall (DW next to must-stay wall with sink to its left) and move the cook top to the island. The island is large enough to make that work well - center it and you would have 36" of counter on each side of the cook top. The raised bar edge would provide diners shielding from grease spatter.

It's more costly to vent an island cook top (I'd strongly recommend a hood over a downdraft) but it's an option to consider.

While checking out houzz for inspiration for my kitchen remodel, I came across this kitchen with a lay-out very similar to what I've proposed above. Thought it might help you visualize it.

[

[Traditional Kitchen[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/traditional-kitchen-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_709~s_2107) by Portland Kitchen & Bath Designers Robin Rigby Fisher CMKBD/CAPS

Wow, lisa, thanks for the additional ideas. I'm a little worried that extending the island toward that wall where the fridge is will make it feel awkard to get "into" the kitchen--we'd have to enter and make a quick left-right every time. Interesting idea to bring that pantry wall out, though. We've been so short on counter space that I didn't think of that, but worth considering if we're getting more island space.

Regarding the corner sink, this looks to be pretty small, no? We have a 30" sink now, and I can't imagine going too much smaller. This looks like more like 24" on the base at front?

We're on the same wavelength re: pocket doors, but I'm not sure they'll work for us in the kitchen (but in the new master bath we hope to add before long, that IS the plan!). The doorway into the pantry is 27.5" wide, and the adjacent wall is only 26"--so the pocket door wouldn't be able to fully retract, and would further reduce our already narrow doorway. I've been considering a pocket door for the basement access, but am worried it might not be as safe. My parents use the basement as guest quarters, and there's no landing at the top of the fairly steep stairs. It seems a lot easier to twist a handle and push a door open as you approach the top than it does to stop and slide a door sideways. My dad's a big guy, and balancing on a narrow tread through that maneuver seems more challenging. I could be wrong on that, though, and should probably research it a bit more.

Thanks for giving me more to think about!

Glad I could help!

I have a 33" wide Kohler double sink in my 42" corner sink cab. You should be able to fit a 30" sink, no problem. There are pluses of a corner sink - no fancy, expensive corner cab mechanism required, no items lost in the back of beyond either - but there are a couple downsides to warn you about.

One, you get less sink frontage because of the angle. We have about 23" across the front of our sink. Both of us can use it but it's not as convenient as with a non-corner sink. Two, the counter behind the sink is deep. If you're vertically challenged like me ;-) it's hard to clean behind the faucet without getting on a step stool.

Not quite sure which plan you are referring to with this comment, "I'm a little worried that extending the island toward that wall where the fridge is will make it feel awkard to get "into" the kitchen--we'd have to enter and make a quick left-right every time." Do you mean A? You could always adjust the island slightly, either pushing it more towards the DR wall (especially if you enlarge the opening) or shorten it by 6".

Given your situation, it doesn't sound like pocket doors and sliding barn doors will work for you. I completely understand the safety concerns about your parents using the basement door.

I understand wanting more counter space but keep it mind that more isn't better if it's not where you need it. That's my current situation. I have about 7' of counter to the left of my corner sink but where I need it is next to my island cook top where I only have 16" of counter on either side (the reason I'm remodeling is to move the cook top to the perimeter). I'm going to end up with fewer inches of counter when we remodel, shrinking from 186" to 150", but I'm not going to miss those extra inches at all,especially since 29 of those inches are completely useless, always covered in junk. I'm allocating them to storage to hide the "junk." ;-)

My point is that don't just count the inches, count their function, too.

First, those 36" aisles are really 33" (I think Kksmama explained it above).

Note that just b/c a doorway is 28", it doesn't mean it's a good width. You "make do" with what you are stuck with - you don't deliberately build something that you will have to make do with. In addition, that 28" is a "pinch point" of what, 3 or 4 inches and that you are in for a fraction of a second as you cross the threshold? Your aisles are work aisles that are going to be used all the time - especially since you have your Prep, Cooking, and Cleanup Zones crammed into one place across from each other.

Second, if you plan to eat meals at the island, be sure you have enough space to do so - and remember that you will have dirty dishes in your face b/c your cleanup sink is in the island as well. At least 18" is recommended - more would be better if you plan to eat meals there regularly. Your plan in the original post (OP) seems to have a good amount of space. Add a nice deep, big sink and you should be able to hide most of your dirty dishes from direct line-of-sight while eating at the island. (Yes, you'll see them in the sink, but it isn't as bad as having them sitting on the counter in your face!)

Third, the aisle behind the seats - if you don't open it up like you have it in your original post, you will find it's a tight fit behind those seats at 42". The door to the backyard makes it worse b/c you will have traffic behind those seats. With a wall behind the seats, you really need at least 48". With an open wall, people will be able to go around the seats by veering off into the DR for a short distance - which you can't do if you have a full or mostly full wall. I think your assessment in the OP that you will need to open the wall up is the correct assessment.

You do not want your DW across from your range/cooktop unless you have at least 54" b/w them - including the doors/handles on the appliances and counter overhangs. We have 46 or 47" b/'w our DW and the counter across the aisle and it's just enough for the DW to be open and someone to slip by it w/o dining a shin....and that counter is in front of only about half the DW - the rest is on an aisle 72" wide. I would not want to work at the cooktop/range with the possibility of an open DW behind me (imagine having a pot of boiling water, taking a step backward in preparation of taking it to the sink to drain, and backing into an open DW door - possibly boiling water splashed on you!) If you must have the three primary work zones in one small space, please have wide enough aisles to accommodate them! I like how you have them staggered in the OP.

Let me see what I can do with it later tonight....

I'm still not sure what you plan to do with a 12" deep countertop. I like both of Lisa's plans (and mine) because you either have a regular countertop under the window...or none at all.

Whatever you decide, I'd round off the corners on your island. Narrow aisles are better if you don't have sharp corners :)

Is the pantry very deep? If not too deep, would it help if you removed the wall to the pantry, have the fridge at the left end and have some shallow pantry cabs (15"?) on the range wall?

Going back to your first version with a peninsula but I tweaked it a bit:

{{gwi:1979655}}

To make this work, you need to shift the DR entry to the right. That was the only way I could get a 36" fridge with cab (39" wide but could be 40") on that bottom wall with a cabinet next to it. Clearance between it and the peninsula counter is a bit more than 41" but I didn't feel like putting in the fractions. ;-)

The MW is a MW drawer. That corner may seem like a bit of a dark hole (same reason why I suggested moving the pantry door instead of putting counter or cabs next to a tall thing near the pantry) but the fridge can't go up against the wall if you want to be able to swing the door open wide enough to access fridge drawers. And most people want to do that. ;-)

The 2nd oven is installed below counter. Only decent option I could figure out, at least at this time.

Are you sure you need a 2nd oven? I thought I did for the longest time but now I've determined that for our family of 4 (soon to be 3, oldest is about to graduate from college), a single oven with an electric roaster for the holidays suits our needs and eases the space constraints of my kitchen. I also have a MW and a toaster oven. I bought the latter because our oven died in June, it's too old to repair, it's in a 29" cab and we want a 30" oven and we aren't ready to remodel yet. It's been ... interesting, yeah, we'll go with that word, living without an oven. ;-)

The 12" deep cabinet at the top end of the peninsula is for storage, can be closed below, open above. You don't have to add this but I figured no one will really want to sit next to the wall, staring at another wall. You could put coffee maker and toaster here, convenient for making breakfast.

Speaking of, I made an assumption that when you wrote "breakfast bar" (perhaps in an earlier thread), that you weren't intending to use it for all meals, just for breakfast and snacks and guests visiting with the cook. Because of this, I didn't feel that you needed a deeper than recommended seating overhang (IIRC, 12" for 42" high counter, 15" for 36" high counter, many here suggest deeper especially for tall people).

As for my aisle clearances, they are counter to counter (with 1.5" counter overhang), counter to wall or counter to appliance front, not cabinet to cabinet so they are true aisle clearances. NKBA recommendations for aisles behind seated diners are 44". More is always better but not necessary and I don't feel that 2" less is going to be that noticeable. Unless you whip out your tape measure. ;-)

The above plan has 48" behind the stools but that was determined by the must-stay wall, not because I was aiming to give you a generous aisle here.

btw, our pantry door is 27" wide so your pantry door has mine beat by an inch. ;-) I would like a wider door, of course, but space constraints won't allow that. Kitchens are all about compromise and juggling to find out what works best for you.

Sena01, good guess on the pantry size; it's 6' deep. We thought about putting the fridge in there, but I think it would feel too cramped--not only opening the door in there, but passing back and forth thru a narrow area to get there. Plus, I hate to give up so much of my pantry. :)

I have two current versions I'm working with. (Lavender_lass, the 12" depth base cabs by the window were several versions ago, and definitely off the table now!) Version A has most aisles increased to 42", and the aisle by back door could also be increased a bit, esp. if we go with a 33" sink base. The raised bar is 18" of cabinet depth on the sides, so actually several additional inches of surface space. The desk/hutch area by the window would include some much-needed storage for the laptop and all those papers that seem to accumulate in the kitchen for some reason...

Version B--which I'll post in a minute--is based on the suggestions from a couple of you to put the sink/dw by the window. I really don't want to leave both corners of the DR wall empty, so I'm considering a shallow dept (15-18") buffet/hutch type thing to the left of the stairs. Depending on how we design it, could use as a bar and/or laptop/mail area, too.

Version B has 24" and 30" of space on side of range. Does this feel enough to folks who have something similar? (We have only 9" and 15" now, so I'm craving space to spread out!). I do like the idea of the extra counter space by the sink, though. This layout doesn't leave a lot of room for a microwave drawer (since I'll want some drawers and pot storage by range), so I've tucked the microwave out of the way behind the fridge, but there may be a better place. Perhaps in the "hutch" area, if we can get away with an 18" deep microwave cabinet?

Interested in hearing everyone's thoughts on these two most current alternatives. Your input thus far has been so helpful--THANK YOU!

Version B, as discussed above.

Hadn't seen your recent layout, lisa_a, before I posted the above. Will review after I get kids to bed. Thanks!

lisa_a, I'm worried about the lack of counter space with that revised peninsula layout, since we'd be losing some to the pantry, as well as the portion that had been along the DR wall.

I'm also not big on shifting the DR entrance over--widening it is ok, but moving it further to the right will make for an awkward entrance to the kitchen, as the foyer is off the left side of the dining room and traffic kind of cuts through the corner of the DR. If the door moves right, folks will have to navigate around the DR table quite a bit.

Thanks for keeping all options in play, though. I'm finding it's easy to grab onto one idea and run with it, never looking back--even if I should!

I threw out option C for your consideration and really, in hindsight, it should be thrown out. ;-) I drew it up primarily to check that an island plan would function better than a peninsula plan. I'm a visual person: I have to see it in 2D, not just in my head. Your latest two plans give you better function, storage and counter space than my plan C.

I think I prefer your Plan A over Plan B.

In Plan B, your sink is rather far from the prep area and I think that would be a bit of a hassle. You could address this by moving the under-counter oven from the island to the right of the range and adding a prep sink to the island. That would give you a nice work triangle and give you separate prep and clean-up zones.

Another comment about Plan B: I understand the need to contain paperwork in a kitchen. Create a Command Central but do it without a desk. You can sit anywhere with a laptop, you don't need to sit in a chair at a desk. Fill up what would be the knee hole area of the desk with cabs for storage.

I've been suggesting bringing the pantry wall out even with the basement stair entry wall but in Plan A, I think it works to leave it where it is. It's still tight quarters with only a 30" aisle but at least that area won't become a dark, uninviting hole as it would if there were a tall appliance column between the range and the pantry.

Another comment about Plan B. In reality, you don't have room for a 36" sink cab. You need to allot 2" for the spacer between the cab runs in that corner so that you can open doors and drawers without being hindered by cabs on the perpendicular run. You also need to include the counter overhang - 1.5" generally - and the counter support at the right side of the DW. That can be .75" to 1.5" wide depending on your cab construction (frameless vs face-frame). For a 36" sink cab and a 24" DW, you need at least 64.25" of wall and it looks like you only have 60" of wall (that's why I drew a corner sink in my Plan B). You only have room for a 31.75" sink cab. That doesn't rule out large sinks, though. See the link below for a Franke SS sink that fits a 30" sink cab. It's a roomy 27-3/16" inside. So you could do Plan B, just be sure that you have a sink to fit the planned cabinet.

Those are my thoughts for now. I'm sure others will chime in with their two cents-worth to help you finalize your plan.

Here is a link that might be useful: Franke professional series SS sink

Oops, I was gathering my thoughts and didn't see your latest comment until after I hit "post." Yep, Plan C should be ditched. ;-)

I also prefer plan A, but I'm not sure about the place of the DW. Wouldn't be better to have it on the other side of the sink? I don't know your routine, but if someone is trying to unload the DW while you're going back and forth b/w the sink/fridge/range, then you'll be in each others' way.

Will you have bar seating in this plan, or just 18" deep cabs?

Let's see! It is your house. The contractor is used to this. So are the subs. My recommendation is, "speak now, or forever hold your peace."

Thanks, Jackfre. Yes, definitely working to get what we want out of this big investment. The good folks here at GW have helped me envision some other workable layouts, and my contractor is cool with it. He's coming by later today to discuss pros/cons (AKA costs!) of the different options.

I should also mention that a slight variation on Version A is also possible, as suggested by a few folks--putting the cooktop, rather than the sink, on the island. While I'm generally not a huge fan of cooktops in the island, this does better separate the cooking and cleanup areas. It would save on plumbing, too, since the sink would stay where it is now--and getting gas to the range would be easy. We'd need a good sized range hood though, and the venting may be tricky. The hood would probably be visible from the foyer, too--so we'd want something good looking, that doesn't obstruct the view too much, but that also isn't too sleek and modern looking since this is an old Dutch colonial house with some nice traditional details. Any thoughts on island ranges, and/or sleek by traditional style hoods that move a lot of air?

And lisa_a, thanks for that sink link--looks like a great option if we're short on space.

There will be a number of GWers who will denounce a cook top in an island so be forewarned. I do when I don't think the island is large enough to function well. That's my situation. I have a 30" cook top in a 62" island. Yep, 16" of counter on each side. I *hate* it with a passion and can not wait to remodel, moving the cook top to the perimeter where I will gain 24" to one side and 40" to the other of my now-I-have-the-room-for-a 36" cook top. 16" is only enough room for a cutting board and nothing else. I get so spread out when prepping a meal, it's annoying as all get out.

Your island in your Plan A is 7' so it's larger than mine, however, you'll still have no more than 24" on each side of your 36" cook top. I know you don't have much room on either side of your cook top now so 24" probably sounds humongous but do a mock up and pretend to cook meals and see if you'll be okay with that much space. It may work for you but best to find out now if it won't.

I did a modification of my Plan A to show you how a cook top could work in a 9' island (the dotted lines on either side of it indicate an island hood's footprint).

{{gwi:1979656}}

This gives you 25.5" of counter on one side and 46.5" of counter on the other side of a 36" cook top. I didn't center the cook top so that the DW door could open without interfering with someone at the cook top and so that there was more counter across from the fridge so that area can be used for prep and for fridge landing space. You can use the counter over the DW for fridge items, too, but if it's full of dirty dishes, you'll want a 2nd option. Especially if you have someone in the house who likes to give every single dirty dish its own space on the counter. That's my youngest son. Apparently he's unfamiliar with the idea of stacking dirty dishes or putting them in the sink. ;-) He's nearly 21 so I doubt I'll change his habits (he has many other wonderful qualities so I try not to grumble too much).

Back to your Plan A: How are you envisioning using the counter next to the pantry? Drawers in a 24" deep cab will extend 21" out from the cab face, eating up a good chunk of your narrow aisle. You certainly won't be able to stand in front of a drawer and pull it all the way out.

So here's an idea for you. Make this section an 18" deep floor to ceiling cab with drawers below (extend 15" out from cab face, leaving more aisle room) and cabs above. Like this:

[

[Traditional Kitchen[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/traditional-kitchen-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_709~s_2107) by Youngstown General Contractors Shannon Cabinetry

Use this cab to store bulky items, such as crock pots, food processors, etc. You could put frosted or ribbed glass or antiqued mirrors (see image below) in the upper cabs to lighten the unit's visual weight while still obscuring what's inside. The drawers can be used for table linens, serving trays, etc.

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[Transitional Kitchen[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/transitional-kitchen-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_709~s_2112) by Sausalito Architects & Designers Heydt Designs

Then you could turn the storage cabinet between fridge and wall into a hutch/command central cabinet. Add a flip-up door like this:

[

[Traditional Kitchen[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/traditional-kitchen-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_709~s_2107) by Oak Brook Cabinets & Cabinetry Schuler Cabinetry
(note that this is an inset door on a cab with overlay doors)
to give you a desk area when you need it - and without its doors interfering with fridge doors - and hide the mess when you're done.

Then the cabinet to the right of the oven/MW column can become your baking station.

It's good you're going to get quotes from your GC about moving gas lines and plumbing but don't forget to add in the cost of island venting. I found out that moving the gas line and buying a new (exterior venting) hood was much cheaper than keeping my cook top in the island and getting a new pop-up downdraft (and I have the venting in place for it already). Island venting is expensive so be sure you factor in all costs of this change before making a decision.

I like Lisa's last plan, but I'd swap the sink and cooktop. If you had windows on that wall...then I'd want the light, but if not, then why not make it easier to vent? :)

So what you're saying, LL, is that you like my Plan A (posted Mon, Dec 2, 13 at 3:26) over my Plan A-1 (posted today at 16:56)? Plan A has the sink, DW and cook top locations MOL swapped from where they are in Plan A-1. I posted A-1 because the OP was contemplating moving the cook top to the island and I thought it would help her to see how that might look, especially with a larger island.

Now that I look at it, I agree with what I think LL is suggesting for my Plan A: switch the position of the sink and DW. That gets the DW out of the way of the cook top and gives you a quick pivot from sink to cook top (good to have when dumping big pots of boiling pasta water). So the island plan, left to right, would be: 21" cab, 36" sink cab, 24" DW, 24" cab with MW drawer. Add 3" for counter overhang at both ends, and you have a 9' long island.

If you want more cab storage, go with a 30" sink cab and the Franke sink I linked to out earlier. You lose 3" of sink space but gain 6" of cab space. A good trade, IMO.

Lisa, do you know any similar space-saving options for an apron front sink? I'm vertically challenged, and a lower front on the sink would be welcome.

Also, just met with my contractor today, and he and I both agreed the 9' island doesn't work well in our space. Maybe if we were able to take down the whole wall between kitchen and DR, but we aren't. And since you already have to walk through a corner of the DR to get to the kitchen, it would feel like an obstacle course to then have to make a couple additional turns in order to get to the work triangle. It would be an S shape path to get there.

The good news is that it looks like getting plumbing to the island shouldn't be a problem--although they'll have to open up a wall in the finished basement, so so much for my plan to host our makeshift kitchen down there. :(

Lisa, I love that 18" deep floor-to-ceiling cabinet photo--great idea. And using antiqued mirror fronts there could help brighten that spot a bit, without the sense that there's a mirror in the main part of the kitchen.

So it looks like we'll probably go with something close to the Plan A I posted Mon, Dec 2, 13 at 22:33. The biggest issue I have now is DW placement. I agree it would be great to get it out from between the range and sink, but if it's on the other side of sink it might interfere with the oven door, no? Or maybe that's not as big of an issue, since less likely to have both dw and oven open at same time--and oven will likely be raised a bit, with drawer underneath?

And yes, cabinets beneath "office" area, rather than a place to sit. Good idea.

Your Plan A with a few minor tweaks will be a great plan for you!

I checked Franke and found apron front sinks that fit a 30" cab and have 26"+ to 27"+ interior widths. The link below shows a white fireclay sink but if you click on "Manor House" in the left hand column, you'll see more options, including a SS apron front sink. I'm sure there are other choices out there, too.

Your GC sounds like our GC. Very easy going, wanting to make sure we're happy and willing to work with us to have a great outcome. After reading so many horror stories here, we feel so glad to have found him (we've already remodeled two bathrooms with him).

Here is a link that might be useful: Franke farmhouse fireclay apron front sink

Kohler also offers apron front sinks, SS and enameled cast iron, for 30" cabinets.

I toured their showroom in Wisconsin a couple summers ago. Oh, was that ever fun! It was great to see so many of their products in one place. Heck, it would be great to see so many of anyone's products in one place but I don't think there are any factory stores near me (PDX) so I have to satisfy myself with the limited selections at plumbing display showrooms and do lots of looking on line.

Here is a link that might be useful: Kohler apron front sinks

Yes...and I do like it better with sink and dishwasher switched :)

Nice job, Lisa!

Thanks, LL. You do realize, though, that ecarson has settled on a variation of her (or his) Plan A (posted Mon, Dec 2, 13 at 22:33), not my Plan A. It's a very good plan, too.

Maybe I should start at the end of the alphabet, not the beginning, to label my plans to avoid any confusion. ;-)

Congrats on sifting this all out into a layout you really like. Such a nice point to reach.

I'm guessing you'd really like having the DW switched. I don't know if you'll be doing any prep alongside the sink, but if so across from the hot skillet would be a great place to wash and slice those greens. :) It's also the place to swing back and forth to with pots of liquid. As for the other side of the sink, wouldn't you think that you'd learn to handle any inoccasional DW-oven conflicts without thought in short order?

Sorry, I'm not a fan of the fridge over on that other wall. It seems like a lot of unnecessary steps, given that it would be so much more convenient (to sink and range) in Lisa's plan A.

If you want something on that wall, what about shallow shelves for cookbooks, display and maybe some pantry items on the bottom (with doors)? Whether the wall is completely removed or not, you will appreciate more space around the range or sink on the island. Too small and you lose prep space.

The wall breaks up that back run, so putting the fridge there seems like a great way to kind of camouflage that. Just my two cents :)

I know, LL, you're absolutely right. It's just that a 9' long island feels too big in our space--like a big obstacle to getting in. We might be able to open the doorway between DR and kitchen a little bit more on that basement side though, to perhaps get in an 8' long island instead... I'll try to play with that a bit.

I also really like the idea of putting a big bulky item or column of appliances by that little fixed wall, which is why I'd been thinking ovens. You don't think it would feel too odd having the refrigerator there, sticking out about a foot beyond the window? I suppose we could move the window over, but given the extra cost of moving plumbing to the island and opening up the entrance wall, I'm not sure I could justify it to my husband. :)

I can understand not wanting the island to be TOO big. What if you swap the fridge and ovens...maybe have a baking area under the window? That would be my choice...but I love to bake :)

Just an idea...I think it's great you're getting close to your ideal kitchen! {{gwi:1979658}}From Kitchen plans

And one other idea...with oven on end of run. Maybe with a hutch or brackets under the upper cabinets to the right of support wall. Just trying to make the wall look like it was planned :) {{gwi:1979659}}From Kitchen plans

This post was edited by lavender_lass on Wed, Dec 4, 13 at 21:41

Instead of moving the window, why not add another? That's what I did for Plan D, along with a few other tweaks. It's a blend of your Plan A and my Plan A, and a little bit of your Plan B.

{{gwi:1979660}}

As always, aisle measurements are counter to counter, counter to appliance front or counter to wall.

Starting at the pantry door:
"a" is an 18" deep cabinet ala the inspiration pic I posted above

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[Traditional Kitchen[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/traditional-kitchen-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_709~s_2107) by Youngstown General Contractors Shannon Cabinetry
with frosted glass or antiqued mirror doors like these:

[

[Transitional Kitchen[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/transitional-kitchen-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_709~s_2112) by Sausalito Architects & Designers Heydt Designs

Next up is a 30" oven installed under the counter. Yes, it's lower than a wall oven but it's higher than an oven in a range and it's one way to gain more counter and that sounded like it was more of a priority for you than oven height.

Next to the oven is a 36" range. Not sure if these two appliances can be installed side by side or if you'll need to add a 6" pull-out cab between them. If so, that would be a great place to store spices.

Between the range and the must-stay wall are two 26" wide drawer cabs. I evenly divided the space. You should determine cab widths based on your needs.

The fridge is on the other side of the must-stay wall.

"b" is closed or open storage ala this inspiration pic I posted above:

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[Transitional Kitchen[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/transitional-kitchen-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_709~s_2112) by Portland Interior Designers & Decorators Vicki Simon Interior Design

The island is 8' long and shifted slightly towards the window wall. There aren't any cabs opening into this aisle so a 39" aisle should be fine.

The MW drawer is still across from the fridge. Not sure how you use your MW but if it's to reheat left-overs and such, this placement makes sense. I think there's enough room to have fridge doors and MW drawer open without hitting each other but if that's not the case and it's a concern, put the MW drawer in the range wall run next to the must-stay wall.

I show an apron front sink in a 30" sink cab, gaining you a bit more cab and counter in the island. DW is where I showed it in my Plan A. Since the range has shifted towards the pantry (and back to being centered on the can light), these two appliances are no longer across from each other. You could still switch sink and DW placement but that will leave you with only 16.5" of counter next to the sink.

I shifted the island 2" towards the DR, easing the pinch point you were concerned about by the fridge. This obviously reduces the aisle between island and DR wall but since you plan on enlarging the DR opening, this won't be an issue, IMO. Plus there are only 3 seats at the island, not 4, to avoid pinch points between island and DR wall.

"d" is a 15" deep open shelving cabinet for cookbooks or display items like this:

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[Traditional Kitchen[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/traditional-kitchen-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_709~s_2107) by Omaha Architects & Designers jordan peterson interior design

You could also angle the corner of the island to give you more room between island and back door. Additionally, you could probably increase the counter overhang an inch or two more, or even three inches, depending on how wide the new DR opening will be.

The island is all one level, btw.

Lastly, "c" is your Command Central housed in a hutch-style cabinet like this:

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[Traditional Dining Room[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/traditional-dining-room-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_722~s_2107) by Grand Rapids Architects & Designers Visbeen Architects

It will provide a nice view from the DR.

I like it, Lisa. I'm uploading a copy of the version I just did before seeing yours, and there's a lot in common... 8' island, narrow furniture unit by basement door, single oven in that same spot (although I think I can go 27" on the oven, since we'll have a larger one in the range). I don't have the 18" floor-to-ceiling cab in the space just outside pantry yet, but am definitely considering that. We do end up using that counter space a lot currently--and that's with the pantry door opening out and taking up several more inches of space--so once we move the door so it opens inward, it'll feel a lot better. I'm not sure we want to make it tighter up top, or lose that counter space... Still mulling that over.

In the version I had just done before seeing yours I also opened up the DR wall even more. With that, and the way we both increased the aisle between island and stairs, I like that it makes it so you have a clear path thru to the range wall upon entering from the foyer (if you can call cutting thru the corner of the DR a clear path, that is!).

I, too, had been contemplating that issue of the microwave drawer opening up into the fridge... Does anyone have any thoughts on having that open toward the window wall instead? I could see the kids come around the back side of the island, grab something from the fridge and nuke it, all without getting in my way... Could have a false panel on side, so doesn't look odd when facing the sink. Could be a dishtowel hanging spot. I'm not sure how it would work cabinet-wise though, esp re: where the electrical needs to be. But worth considering?

And LL, I love that idea of baking center under window, but I think it would feel just too tight having fridge by pantry. And Lisa, unfortunately a second window is out of the question, as there's too much stuff inside the wall right by back door. I did goof on the window size in my original sketch, though, and it goes fairly close to door as is.

I feel like we're getting there!!! Looks like I owe my son a new graph paper notebook, though. I've burned through a lot of paper, thanks to everyone's great suggestions.

These are from beaglesdoitbetter's kitchen, post dd. Feb 7, 12 at 12:33.

beaglesdoitbetter says (near the end of the post) recycle and trash can be used both from front and side.

I thought, If you consider such a mechanism for your trash cab you can move one of the seaters to the shorter side of the island. I tried with fridge on the left and the right. Not really sure about the results though.

Fridge on the right:

1- You have 54" behind the seat vs NKBA's recommended 65".

2- DW b/w the sink and range may be dangerous.

Fridge on the left:

This looks more promising imo, assuming that you go in front of the island to reach the oven.

Maybe someone can come up with a better idea.

I think Lisa's 18" tall cab (a) would be very nice near the panty door with something like this to give you temporary counter space.

Well, I've been at it again... I didn't like the way the range next to the electric oven was going to look, so it dawned on me that maybe we actually DO have room for the 48" range my husband wanted. This consolidates the ovens and cooktop into a smaller space, and we really don't need two large ovens anyway. I had it stuck in my mind that we couldn't fit a large range, but that was based on the original peninsula layout...

Does this look reasonable all around?

PS - Ignore that line in front of the fridge. Sketcher error.

Looks great! You may want to shift the island a bit towards the DR, though, so that you have more than a 36" aisle between island and fridge. Or am I counting the squares incorrectly? And as I posted above, if you forgo a stool at the island nearest the back door, you can get by with a slightly narrower aisle between island and DR wall.

Must feel good to have made so much progress!