I would not accept a seam at a DW unless there were blocking installed at the rear walls as well as support across the front of the DW at the top and under the seam. Granite is just too heavy for a 24" of unsupported span.

I would not accept the seam placement either. What will happen if/when you have to replace the dishwasher? How will the counter top be supported when the dishwasher is taken out of the cabinet, (unless there is some unknown support) The one place our installer said absolutely no seam was over the dishwasher.

No granite installer I talked to, and there at least half a dozen, would do a seam over a DW. In addition to the support issue you can have some vibration from the DW which is yet another possible cause of seam problems down the road. The combination of vibration and inadequate support is not a good one. At least that is what they told me. Aesthetically and functionally for my work areas that would have been a place I would have preferred to have one, but not enough to risk problems later, even if any of them would have agreed to do it.

Sue

I can't believe they did that!! I hope you can get them to replace the slabs. that is totally unacceptible.

Lovetocook9--How thick is the granite? Was the granite installed over plywood underlayment?

My zodiac has a seam over the dw (it's not centered over it, it's about 2 inches over on one side). They did support it with 2 long, thick blocks of wood. They had to lower dw to do it, so it is removable. The quartz is super thick, I can't imagine it will flex much. HTH

SOL!!!!!!!!! - (A new acronym - "screaming out loud")
My mind is not at ease....

ci_lantro - My granite is 3cm. I don't believe it was installed over plywood. Have a call into my husband right now.

SO WHAT CAN I DO???? There is no more of this granite. When we originally went granite shopping this is the one that "hit me" everytime I saw it - it was one of the higher cost ones so we thought about it and shopped for another month, when we decided to go for it it was all gone! After alot of phone calls we finally had one of the granite yards call us and tell us that 2 slabs were released, we took a look, loved them and grabbed them. Uuggghhhh!!!!!
DH just called....me frantic, him calm, told me to call the fabricator and ask if they put a support under there and if not tell them of our issues and get something under there (same steel supports used on the island?)
AND on top of that seam we have cabinets up to the ceiling ON that part of the counter!!!!!!!!!!!!

Have many errands to run right now and children needing me...will get a cup of coffee, take a deep breath and get my head on right and then proceed.
If any of you are the praying sort - I could use them!

kidshop - Yes, you have given me some hope!

Gosh at this point I think it would be better if you didn't know. I'd be tempted to say, "Oh well I hope it will be fine." It has been 5 weeks. To be fair it's not a 24" unsupported span, but rather a pair of 12" unsupported spans and it might not be unsupported. I guess you can at least ask if they put a piece of wood at the back next to the wall. If not at least that could be done by them or a carpenter. Also the epoxy is very strong so it's not truly unsupported either. I'm not saying it's ideal and if you were going to put it in NOW, you might well reconsider, but with the granite already in I don't think it's the disaster that some of the previous posters are making it out to be.

- Jim

After the fact I would remove the DW and use steel angle stock at the rear screwed into the studs for a support. I would also use the same steel angle stock screwed into the side of the cabinets adjacent to as to support the top. In fact, probably the easiest solution would be to have a metal fabrication shop weld you up a "square" using steel angle stock on 3 of the sides and flat bar stock across the front. Have the location of your studs in the rear mapped out so they can pre drill the bolt holes, and you'd have a fairly secure system in place. It will require accurate measuring in the first place, but it should be a cinch to install if they predrill the steel.

my fabricator said Never put a seam around or by the DW:
Never has he done that in 10 years of fabricating or installing. NO SUPPORT: after the fact: don't know:

For future customers being installed: ask 100% where seams are going and sign something and/or go see the templates laid out before or while slab is on cutting table.
A good fabricator: will allow this:
best advise:
not sure what to do after the fact:

Lovestocook9:

Live wire oak (as usual) is giving you some really good
advice, and I agree with the suggestion. Live wire - You
have got your act together my friend!

Here's my .02 cents worth on this subject:

Qualifier - I am a Fabricator and have been actively
working with "slabbage" - 2CM & 3CM Natural Stone -
for the last 25 years. I teach people that are starting up'
their own Fabrication operations how to be a real
Fabricator and how to succeed at this business.
I travel alot, write for about 4 different trade magazines, and
meet alot of people and get to share ideas every
day with people in my Industry.

Here's my thoughts - Personally -

I do NOT like to put a seam over a dishwasher.

It's that way I was taught, when 25 years
ago, we did NOT have anywhere near the technology - glues
diamonds, etc. that we do now.

That being said, fast forward to 2008, and there will be
just as many people that WOULD put a seam over a D/W as there are
old dogs like me, that still hold to the "old school" ways.

With the advent of better glues and installation techniques,
the seam that is over YOUR D/W could have absolutely NOTHING
wrong with it, and could possibly still be intact when you
and I are nothing more that shadows & dust....

IF you are concerned about it - start with Live Wire Oak's
suggestion (it's a good one, and I would have made it to you too)

Contact your Fabricator, and see how long they will warranty the seam.
IF they used good glue -
like Bonstone's TOUCHSTONE Epoxy - you should be
in the clear and you should be sleeping well at night...

FYI - I have NEVER had a failure in over 20 years - because
I use ONLY Touchstone Glue on Natural Stone Seams & Laminations.

All in all, the situation is managable.

hope that helps

kevn

Kevin M. Padden
Fabricator, Trainer & Consultant to the Natural Stone Industry
www.azschoolofrock.com

Thank you all for your responses, your thoughts, considerations, how to's and sharing my frustrations. You've all helped me over this crisis and I'm breathing again.

Jim - BG - I had moments where I was saying "Oh, it'll be fine" and did wish I didn't know but the "what ifs" went into overdrive.

Live Wire Oak - I think I feel most comfortable with your suggestion...my DH is thinking as Jim and Kevin that the glue may indeed be stronger than the granite...I'm a bit worried about the measuring, as DIY'rs we've made our share of mistakes in that area! May be asking you more how to's if you don't mind.

Kevin - I can't thank you enough for putting my mind at ease. I believe I would have lost much sleep over this - your "2 cents" was much appreciated. I'm comforted with your knowledge and expertise on this matter and knowing that this is indeed manageable! I will contact my fabricator tomorrow and inquire about the warranty and the glue.

Again, thank you, thank you, thankyou all!!!

Well, I did contact the fabricator. The person we had been dealing with wasn't available...I talked to one of the installers, he didn't know the name of the glue used so went and asked the owner who wouldn't tell me for fear of his competitors getting the info!? I told them of my concerns and they repeatedly told me I had nothing to worry about - in testing pieces of granite, the granite would break but never at the seam, they basically said the seam was stronger than the granite...They wouldn't warranty the seam but told me they've never had a problem etc., etc., I did find out that it is not the epoxy that Kevin had mentioned as being good. They did tell me after much conversation that they did put a bar stock for support under the granite and over the dishwasher - the middle. They are coming tomorrow to install the island and a windowsill, bolt down the dishwasher and take care of some small "holes" - This all makes me nervous, I want them to take care of everything but am afraid to "rock the boat" and have things not taken care of properly because of it...

It concerns me a little that they won't warantee the seam. Did they say how long they have been using it? I hope a while. It would be interesting if you if you noiticed a tube or container or something around with a name on it tommorow. :)

Sue

They won't warrent the seam? that really concerns me. A LOT. Have you paid them in full?? Please do not be afraid to rock this boat....you paid a lot of money for that granite and they need to do what is right. At the very least, there needs to be some steel angles sttached to each side of the cabinets right under that seam to support it. Not flat steel....it needs to be angle or channel or something like that. Flat steel will flex (unles it is standing on it's edge). Do not pay them until they provide some support for that seam.

I agree with Sue_CT & ccoombs1:

It's YOUR Money....

It's YOUR Boat.....

Rock for Effect!!!!!

DO NOT pay in full until YOU - (NOT THE INSTALLERS) - Are SATISFIED!!!!!

YOU are the one that is going to live with this project, so make sure that YOU
CAN!!!! Make SURE that they have satisfied YOUR concerns - BEFORE you pay in full,
and ONLY AFTER they WARRANT the seam in question....

This is not rocket science, and you certainly are NOT dealing with NASA... ;-)

Kevin M. Padden
Fabricator, Trainer & Consultant to the Natural Stone Industry
www.azschoolofrock.com

Thank you Sue, Ccombs1 and Kevin

Sigh...they came early yesterday am. I expressed my concern to the salesperson I've been dealing with and asked her to have them verify the support when they come for I couldn't see it - (My son and I the night before looked for the support by pulling out the drawer next to the dishwasher and looking in with a flashlight on the corners of the diswasher and saw nothing. I spoke to DH and told him I didn't see anything, he couldn't either). She understood my concerns and was going to make sure they would check everything. DH was here when they arrived yesterday and questioned it, they showed him some wood support they had put in the back and had stated again that the actual seam was stronger than the granite because of the epoxy they used. Said it was not silicone based as most were and are, I believe they said what they use is a mixture they put together?

SUE, I did see the container it came out of - "Integrity Adhesives"
KEVIN have you heard of this? I believe it is a product from Canada.

I asked again a warrant for the seam and was told that all of their business was from word of mouth and all their customers are pleased as I will be, and that they certainly didn't want to come back out because of things going wrong and then having to fix it - they mentioned I could talk to the owner. DH feels very comfortable because he believes too that the seam is stronger than the granite and we should have no problems. The question that continues to come to mind for me - If their confidence is so strong why not warrant the seam?

As some of you have mentioned, don't pay in full till satisfied - We paid in full after they laid the counters, that was a month ago, yesterday was an additional trip to lay down the island and put a sill in. I believe, if DH doesn't mind, I'll call the owner about a warrant after I can remove my emotions from the situation : )

from my experience:
my company gives a 1 year warranty on the granite.
We never put a seam by the kitchen sink or DW. Although, as for "seam" placement: if the customer never expresses their concerns over "seam" placement: and they complain after the fact & granite is "glued" down and they never said a word: then they don't like where seam was placed: well, they still have to pay their bill.
The fabricator where I work: he knows better! He goes over seams at time of "template" and the owner allows the customers to approve and witness template placement on the slab the minute it's cut on the saw table. Due to past issues!
Although: there are customers like this:
-they want granite
-they pick the granite
-they pick the sink
-they never call and ask me 101 questions before install
-one day the installer shows up to the customer's house to install
-customer pays the bill and
I never hear from them again & they are happy!
Then there is the customers that complain about several things, make demands that are not possible, create their own "drama" and ask 101 questions.
I have learned that making the customer happy and educated before install is better in the long run: and they will all tell their friends where they got their granite from!
(you on the other hand: if someone comes to your house to ask about your granite : you might tell them: "find a different fabricator") Word of mouth is a great advertisement!

I guess: what I am trying to say for people seeking: that is awesome: and I am glad people attempt to find out information before they start projects in their home.
I promise: I learn something new daily about install process & procedures & how to keep customers happy!
(reminds me of a lady who was bragging to me that she cleaned her granite weekly with vingar & water! I was not about to argue with her, although: I said "how is that working out for you?") ha ha ha!
Best wishes and enjoy your kitchen!

Maybe don't pay your bill in full until your mind is at ease about the situation. There is good advise from one of the posts what to do after the fact: sounds good to me. (my guys said no support around DW)