I have little to offer as i haven't been thorough enough in reading the many posts but having just finished a kitchen remodel I offer the following points:

I agree with alku about taking your design and going elsewhere, and also with those who say that the cabinet maker you like with most certainly works with others and not solely through your design group. As a side note, I have Dynasty/Omega and am not totally in love with it so please have no regrets about your decision to go elsewhere. : ) Your cabinetry prices seem reasonable to me.

I agree with those who think most of your materials sound fairly in line, although everything is subject to some negotiation, especially in this economy, but that the labor and profit margins sound pretty outrageous. (Haven't scrutinized your plumbing which sounded high and appliances - )

We found a contractor who did demo and lots of other stuff (plumbing, drywall, structural work, finish carpentry, electrical, etc.) for reasonable prices. What we were not able to sell on craigslist we donated to Habitat for Humanity and will take the tax write off. I looked at lots of the "full service" places but couldn't stomache the price tag that came with them. Don't get me wrong, there were plenty of times through the process that I regretted that decision and wished I had just one person to deal with who was responsible for the whole thing - instead I got several subs (main contractor, cabinet company's installer who was a total pain and primadonna, and grantie/marble guy) arguing about who did a bad job and why "x" wasn't their job. It drove me to consider valium.

Oh, regarding painting, it totally depends on what you are having painted. In addition to our walls and ceilings, we have LOTS of wood trim, doors and built in cabinets and bookshelves painted in adjacent family room and it was shockingly expensive but they did a great job.

Ok, good luck and be patient, it's easy to loose your patience but you really should take your time because you'll be living with it for a long time.

Ok I'm not sure if I should respond or not...I obviously offended and not a little bit. I'm sorry if that's not the case.

I do like my cabinets a lot and they're definately custom, given that neither of the other companies I wanted (Woodmode or Hertco could make them). They're well built. I have had a few issues, but all have been dealt with quickly through Omega and I am still satisfied with them. I think almost everyone can say that they had a door here or problem there...even with on site built custom, so if we could let that go...paulines you obviously hate the line...but maybe let's not go to insults? I've agreed, pros and cons, but I'd dare you, a person with experience in kitchen design, to not walk in my kitchen and see that the money was well spent. Anyhoo...this is peeving me off...I digress...

TF, you didn't make the effort to describe your appliances in much detail, nor did you describe your cabinets in detail. What you threw out to us was bare pricing with scanty details, and we reacted. I wasn't trying to hurt you, I was trying, after having experienced a pain in the total pocket book remodel, to help you. I'm sort of sorry I tried given that all I did was offend.

Given that you've shared details, I'll just say, no the cabinets sound quite nice...hearing what they were constructed of might have helped. I hope you absolutely love them...they do sound like quality. THe price does not lead one to think that and many others mentioned that as well. Your appliances are also nice, and I don't know where I started screaming I hated your plumbing...I was just trying to say that with (now that you've shared) equal quality in each kitchen, I still can't come up to the price you've been quoted.

Go with the design build firm. I honestly do hope you end up with a lovely kitchen in the end. It sounds like the right route for you. I was just attempting to show that you could spend a lot of money on two things..."Stuff" and "labor". I prefer to spend on stuff since it lasts longer than the memory of sweaty construction workers on site.

I'm again sorry to have offended so deeply. That wasn't my intent.

igloochic, honestly, I wasn't offended. I only sought to correct some of your assumptions about the quality of my appliances and cabinetry which led you to draw, what I belive to be, incorrect conclusions.

I apologize if my comments came across as defensive. I truly value your opinion and appreciate your taking the time to help me:) I didn't get into details about the appliances and cabinetry because I felt that they weren't at issue. It was the labor and profit costs that were in dispute. However, I now understand that it is difficult to judge the latter without details about the former.

Cheers & ::sMoOcH::

rmkitchen:
There is so much about your kitchen that I love. Your gorgeous gaggs inspired me to choose them for my kitchen. I also feel the same way about marble that you do. For me, it's a must have - the centerpiece of my dream kitchen. I understand caring for it might be a pill, but I don't mind because I love the patina of stone and leather and wood and metals when they age.

Thank you for the KD recs!! The only one I'm familiar with is Dave Stimmel. He's actually in the next town over, but I never even considered him because he's on HGTV and I thought that would translate into: expensive!

fern4:
Your comments are so helpful as I am putting together something to present to the remodeler using some of your figures for comparison.

Also, in response to your inquiry, my reference to "retail cost for appliances" is the published price at either an appliance store or online (AJ Madison, for example).

In further reply, the painting quote does not include any exterior painting, but it probably includes topcoating my existing stained trim baseboard, but still -> WAY HIGH, right?

fern4, you are so right in pointing out the value derived from this process. Yet, reinventing the wheel does get tedious. The worse part is people constantly asking me whether my kitchen is done yet (which is only slightly less annoying than, "when are you getting married?" - LOL)

Thanks again to everyone for the opinons and comments and advice --so appreciated! I will keep you posted...

But ichic, some of those 'sweaty construction workers on site" were REAL eye candy - no? LOL

I think if you want to go back to this firm, you really need to push for specifics. Have the costs broken out completely so you can see what you're paying for.

i.e. Plumbing, I would want to see:
$X for your choice of sink
$Y for your choice of faucet (same with all other materials)
$Z per hour for T hours of labour

I would do the same for the paint, and any other sections that you believe are high ($X for paint supplies, $Y per hour for Z hours of labour).

Honestly, since their numbers seem so high, I don't think this is out of line to ask for. Then you can clearly see what is materials and what is labour (and profit, which I'm sure will be built in). I also would assume that there is profit in each of the items - sure, the price of the appliances is retail, but I'll bet they are getting a lower price and their difference is profit.

I would also be calling the other suggested resources, right away. Don't put any money down, just maybe do up your own diagrams of what you are looking for and ask for a quote.

Okay, so I spent quite a bit of time scutinizing the costs in the bid and figured out that the line items in the breakdown detailed above have a built in 30+% markup to for ALL LABOR & MATERIALS. I'm pretty sure they are tacking that 30% onto the $20,000 cost for appliances too, which I am buying and paying for directly! Egregious! I just emailed them to clarify, but it says so, plain as day on the proposal.

They are kind of tricky the way the proposal is formatted. You see appealing numbers, like "CABINETRY $35,000"! But add on their 30+% ($10,500) plus installation (probably $10,000 for the labor plus 30% more for their profit on the labor), and the Cabinetry is really more like $56,000 - which is still fair given what I'm getting, but definitely not the killer deal I thought it was! LOL.

So, I just wrote asking them to revise the bid with the profit listed separately from labor and material costs. I hope they do it. I have to assume they excluded the details intentionally because they are not too keen on transparency.

Assuming they are forthcoming with the information I seek, this could still happen with them if they reduce their profit and if I purchase all my fixtures, and stone (countertop, floor, and backsplash) independently. I was already buying the appliances. I just calculated, and the savings on buying my own appliances, stone and fixtures is $12,548! Shopping on my own could also yield better deals and even further savings.

I wish they would have suggested I purchase my own materials in order to lower the numbers rather than immediatley asking me to eliminate things and find less costly materials - but I guess that's business, right?

JMHO, I would not deal with these people. I'm concerned you will have an uphill battle with many problems to come. Way too many "red flags" and you haven't even started yet. I think you're asking for trouble using them. I know it's hard, but I think you should start getting some more quotes/opinions. I apologize if this is a little too harsh. I'm only trying to save you a lot of grief. Good luck in whatever you decide!
Barb

The problem with asking them to not include appliances or other items in the 30+% markup is that it is where a good amt of additional profit is for them, and they WANT their profit. I think they made it clear by suggesting you cut costs by using less expensive materials. It is an indication that they are not at all motivated or inclined to cut their profit. Although they might reduce it a little, I think they will just try to find other ways to make it up or not do the job. Of coarse it doesn't hurt to ask but I had a similar experience on a much smaller scale. When I balked at the plumbing estimate a contractor gave me for a job as being the only thing really out of whack and making it a problem for me to use him, I gave him the job but told him I would get my own plumbing done. He just ended up cutting other corners, not having the electrician he quoted in the job and doing the small electrical stuff himself, not having the plasterer come back for a final "finesse" to smooth the walls out as well as he should have, etc. I realize now that he had purposely hidden some additional profit there that he felt he needed to make the job profitable enough to be attractive to him. I would hate to have you go with a firm like this because you expect that they will take care of everything, only to feel like you have to watch and double check everything so they don't try to find ways to make up the profit they feel they lost.

It may work out great. But my advise would be don't push and go elsewhere if they don't warm up to the idea. And I am a great bargain hunter!

Sue

In your posts it seems clear that you paid $1200 for a design that didn't really change your current space, other than plugging in new cabs and appliances. In addition to a lazy design, it seems your KD wants to pad their profit margin. Is this a fair assessment? If so, take your room dimensions and start over in some cabinet showrooms or with an independent KD that will listen to your needs, your wish list, and your budget. You can get bids from GC's that work with these professionals. Get numbers and compare. Yes, it will set back your project, but in the end you will have an exciting space that incorporates the elements you envision and not a rehashing of your current kitchen. You want to squeeze everything you can out of your budget and with your current KD you're not maximizing your bottom line - you're simply adding to theirs.

While I do think 30% profit is close to being ridiculous, sadly, that is well within the reality that design and build firms can command. People want to pay for the details to be handled, and that's what they provide---at a cost. Now, I also want to say that it is standard construction industry practices for the contractor's markup to include all labor and materials. If they are supervising the job, and scheduling the trade interactions of the job, and they provide a warranty for the job, then they are entitled to mark up all labor and materials to cover that, unless you specifically exclude such items by bid and agree to supervise, schedule and warranty customer supplied items yourself. If you do that for some items, then you're actually assuming the role of GC yourself and you might as well do it for the rest and save the money. You've already done much of the research about the product, now's the time to research the subs and just go ahead and embark on the adventure. Or agree to the 30% fees and make them earn them.

Now, if they are double marking up their profit, such as their subs giving you a 10k quote, and they are charging 13K in the line item, and then elsewhere again calculate 30% of the 13K as a separate line item profit, that's just goudging and you need to kick them to the curb with no second chance.

taliaferro,

Boy, does this story sound familar to us. (I just found this thread and remember your earlier one.) Yes, go over all the gory details of the bids so you really know what your project entails, but it seems like you are trying to decide if it's time to explore a third alternative now that you understand, as we finally did, that the design/build prices include a lot of middle-man mark-up and not much consideration of the client's stated budget. I'm with the folks who think you should consider a new approach. If you have the cash for this project, you are in the catbird seat, but you won't know it if you don't expand the universe of bidders.

Right now there is not a market in the country where you can't ask several GCs, design/build and regular custom home builders to give you bids on your project and then go from there. It's a buyer's market, although Firm #2 may be hoping you don't notice. I agree with the several posters who advise you to drop #2 because they didn't listen. That firm may be hoping to salvage their year on your project.

In our market (and we weren't one of the hot ones), residential construction has slowed enough that all the custom home builders are advertising to do additions, kitchens, even decks. The architect from our old award-winning-and-fired DB firm has lost his house in a foreclosure. I'm now getting emails from some GCs who are hoping they are still under consideration for the addition project we delayed for years because their bids were so unreasonable.

Sure, it's a scary time be spending money on our home, but there are some things we like about doing our project now. We are rewriting our mortgage and our new construction loan to take advantage of the lower interest rate; we expect to see our property tax assessment go down and will appeal if it does not because we think we can get our base rate lower before the improvements; and we expect to see aggressive bidding on the labor and commodity prices on our project, not to mention better and speedier service. Hopefully you will find some of these are true for you, too.

bbtondo, sue_ct, beachmusic, live_wire_oak, & californiagirl -
thanks for offering your point of view and wisdom. It's not looking good with these guys.Â

I did present a series of questions to the Design-Build firm drawn from the suggestions on this thread. The Q&A is below. I'm still confused.

If I could ask you kind folks to indulge me once again and peek the responses - does anything stand out or raise flags?Â

---------------------------------------------

• QUESTION(1): Why is the plumbing so high - I'm not relocating anything difficult (no floor trench for island plumbing, for example) I deducted the material costs from your $8,300 figure, but still $4392 (including the 30% markup) to remove and reinstall faucets and appliances sounds high. What else does that cost cover?

Â

ANSWER:Â The fixtures are $3,800 the balance is plumbing connections, updating shut-offs and connections as necessary and then our overhead and profit

• QUESTION(2): What is the $8100 for Architectural & Engineering for? There's no serious structural reworking besides a bigger window, correct?

ANSWER:
DESIGN & ESTIMATING
Project Design Development = time already spent
Project Construction Development = time still anticipated
Estimator
Estimator - permits & material acquisition
PROJECT SETUP & COORDINATION
Project selection = time spent and still anticipated
Project management
Lead Carpenter Labor

• QUESTION(3): $5000 for demo? Who does that part of the job?

ANSWER: Our employees and it includes, demolition, dumpster and cleanup (daily and throughout, includes protection and plastic doorways)

• Question(4): Wall & Flooring- I did the math and I must be getting charged about $10 s.f. for the labor, which also seems quite high. I recently had tiling done for a marble mosaic through (X tile showroom) and the labor was $10 s.f. but I believe that's because it was a complex installation

ANSWER:Â We do have $10 a sq. ft. included currently because we have no idea
what is going to be picked and we have continuously tried to worst case the preliminary so that the final construction agreement does not come in higher than the preliminary.

• QUESTION(5): It looks like you are adding the 30% markup to the $20,000 price for appliances? The line item reads: "Cabinetry, countertops, installation, appliances, and appliance installation = $100,100." If I am purchasing my own appliances as clearly stated in the proposal, then why is the 30% profit being added on?

Â

ANSWER:
Cabinetry and Appliances Supervision/coordination 829.08

Â

CABINETS
Custom Kitchen Cabinets 47,704.44
Custom Butler Cabinetry
Custom table without top 3,528.00
Hardware allowance 1,168.65
Calacatto Oro Marble Tops 18,342.66

Cabinet installers 3,210.48
Carpenter Helper for CABINETS 2,557.80

Â

APPLIANCE HANDLING
Lead Carpenter Labor 458.64
Carpenter Helper 383.67
Misc. Material 147.00
Subzero 7,539.00
Wolf induction cooktop 3,899.00
double wall ovens 5,498.00
Miele Optima dishwasher 1,589.00
warming drawer...

just found a typo: I meant to say 30% O&P (overhead & profit).

Appliance HANDLING?!? WTF?!? $500 for handling a microwave that might cost $200?!? I'm including that one in my list of Truly Ridiculous Charges For The Ages!

There are other comments that I could make, but the bottom line is:

Run, don't walk, away!!!

Honey, I hate to be the one to break it to you, but you will have to watch the D&B firm and their subs every bit as much as you would a GC. No one else will ever care about your house as much as you do. Yes, good contractors care about their work and reputation- but not as much as you care about your house.

bluekitobsessed-
please, don't hold back, I wanna hear what else you have to say! This whole process is an education for me and your comments will help me read future proposals with a more discerning eye.

cocontom-
I hope I won't have to babysit the D&B & their subs, because otherwise, what am I paying for? I was also attracted to the idea that they have vetted the subs and (quote: "We know that they provide the best quality and service and are worth what they charge. We have dealt with many plumbers and electricians over the years and have carefully chosen the best to work with.")

As an aside, I have been lobbing so many questions at them, they might quit me first;-)

Hi. I have been reading this forum for a long time but new to posting. I am in the middle of my kitchen remodel( My plumber left an hour ago). I live in an upscale northern nj suburb and am paying a fraction of your labor costs. To break it down:
Plumber:$4000
Electrician: $5000
Carpenter: $16,000 - includes new floor underlayment, demo, opening 4 walls (including new engineered beams become some were load bearing), closing existing widow, installing new window in different location (also includes cost of windows (3 anderson casements)sheetrocking entire kitchen and adjoining family room, cabinet installation and all finished carpentry.
Flooring:$5000 - for entire first floor of house (lauzon red oak pre-finished solid hardwood)

Hope this helps.

mava818

I am in nothern NJ also. Did you use a GC? Can I ask who you are using?

Thanks

T'll throw in my two cents here and reiterate what cocontom stated: YOU ARE GOING TO HAVE TO WATCH WHOEVER YOU HIRE. There is NOBODY out there who is going to be as cautious or detail-oriented as you will.

These people you are dealing with need to get a grip. I believe that their Modus Operandi is to send out truly larcenous quotes, and see who comes back to them. It is likely that most of the people they send these quote to go through the same process as you have/are. So when they get responses from people who want to go ahead with their firm they know that they have an informed sheep offering themselves up who subconsciously WANTS to be slaughtered.

Here are a few things I have determined to be fact over the last thirty-five years of hiring and working with all manner of contractors (not limited to building trades).

1. There is nobody out there who, given the authority to make decisions on your behalf and left alone for more than 48 hours, will produce the exact result that you wanted. The product may be nice but it will not be what you had envisioned.

2. It doesn't matter what role you assume on the project, it will take massive amounts of your own time. You have to always be available to make decisions. Not doing so costs you far more than you will realise. You're going to be there anyway so you might as well take charge of it to begin with.

3. It is usually cheaper to hire a temporary person to handle some of your reqular work so that you can devote more hours to a particular project than it is to hire someone to handle the project AND try to engineer your ideas.

4. Don't ever hire someone who is not patient enough or transparent enough to explain to you what they are going to do and why they are going to do it that way. Honest people doing good work enjoy this process. Incompetents avoid it.

5. If something sounds like a bad idea IT IS. Don't let someone talk you into anything you don't agree with.

In your position I would think seriously about hiring a housekeeper/nanny to handle things around the house and help with the children while I acted as GC. I think you'll find it a lot less expensive and far more satisfying.

Good Luck - whatever you do :)

"I was also attracted to the idea that they have vetted the subs and (quote: "We know that they provide the best quality and service and are worth what they charge. We have dealt with many plumbers and electricians over the years and have carefully chosen the best to work with.")"

I got this line, too, and it's true you really need to watch them. Having watched too many youtube videos of professional installations etc, I would not trust anybody anymore, no matter how good they say they are.

I second what sailormann said. I GC'd my own. I had a good cabinet maker who was also the installer. He also helped me design where everything would go. He even installed the oven and the dishdrawers. I had my plumber hook up the dish drawers. I had an electrician come out and hook up the induction cook top.

There is so much help on this board that makes it pretty easy. You can get good workers. I had my handyman do the demo. I've read so many awful stories of people having GC's and still having to do so much work themselves to solve problems. I figured I'd just do it myself.

You could start by interviewing custom cabinet makers and see if they are trustworthy and how much of the project they will be able to help you with.

For $150k to $180k you should be getting a new house to go along with that kitchen.... meanwhile, as has been said.. many of the line items are preposterous, ie:

"$4,392- Plumbing (disconnect existing & connect/install new sink, faucets, Everpure filtered hot/cold water system, dishwasher, & new water line for fridge)"

Hahahaha to that one.. labor for all of that should be... less than $500.

As is often the case, it seems prices are quoted to those that can "afford it" thinking they won't know any better... after all, more expensive is better, right? *wink, wink*

I had my response all prepared but didn't want to submit for fear of sounding harsh - but sailorman put it out there. You will be a lamb lead to slaughter if you think you can pay someone and sit back. You will encourage them to bleed you dry. YOU HAVE TO BE THERE EVERY STEP OF THE WAY!!!

You can be POSITIVE that if you go with this company your kitchen will end up costing over $200,000.

Why not just go out and buy a house with a kitchen you like.

As others have stated, going with a D&B firm is NO guarantee that you will get a quality product with no headaches for you. I'll just let that statement sink in a bit for you to realize that's the truth.

Renovations are NEVER stress free. The least amount of stress occurs when YOU have the most control over the outcome. You've done the research. You know what look you want. YOu know what appliances and counters you want. All you need is a KD to flesh out your ideas for that kitchen and to hire a carpenter, electrician and plumber yourself. Viola! All of a sudden you're the GC!

If the results matter to you, you will be involved anyway. So, BE involved.

Taliaferro, I feel your pain. I live on the Mainline too and know that we are charged 20% more for EVERYTHING simply because of our zipcode. So, I'm not at all shocked by your estimate. We are working with a reputable GC, who did not do the design, will extend his discount to us on all materials and doesn't care whether we use some of our own subs (for instance, soapstone supplier/installer). My kitchen is half the size of yours and our initial estimate was $144K. This quote didn't include appliances but it did include installing two new sinks, a possible subpanel (expensive), all new lighting, taking down part of the dining room wall and installing radiant floor heating (also expensive).

I do think you are being overcharged for the cabinet and marble installation. I looked at cabinets from a local kitchen store and their quote was $33K for the cabinets and $7K for the installation. This included crown molding and trim. I can't believe the $152 sf for the marble doesnt include fabrication and installation. The price for painting is also very high (very close to the premiere painter in the area who is outrageously overpriced!) unless you have lots of trim and windows with divided lights. If so, I'd say that's what you'd pay around here.

I have found that price is not negotiable with GC's in this area. For the many projects we've done, the only way to bring costs down was to change the scale of the project or look for a cheaper GC.

Having said all of this, I would definitely get other bids, because while everyone around here overcharges, some are way worse than others, thinking you'll pay whatever they quote. Email me if you want my GC's info.

I think you have received some sound advice.

I did get scared when you said "I won't have to babysit the D&B & their subs, because otherwise, what am I paying for?" because that is just so wrong, wrong, wrong. I doubt it will be any different for you than if you deal directly with a GC. Plenty of others commented about that statement so you shouldn't be believing that anymore.

Even if the prices in your area are higher than others, that quote is laughable. I guess that much overpricing/profit is for people that have plenty of money and don't mind spreading it around (and there's nothing at all wrong with that) but since you have a budget you want to stick to (and there's nothing at all wrong with that :D)then that firm isn't for you.

It sounds like you've already waited awhile for your kitchen and unless there's absolutely no evidence of recession in your area you might wait a few more months before interviewing and obtaining prices from other GC's or DB firms.

Regardless of whether you have your remodel done now or in a few months, I would not waste any more time with this company.

taliaferro,

I don't want to repeat what has already been great advice about watching everything, including from some of the valued pros who post in this forum. It's like your children or anything else very valuable or expensive that you cannot afford to lose on. It's your money and your house.

I did laugh at the line about the "vetted" subs, though. The electrician sub from our DB firm did such a poor job on some early wiring that the whole panel was shorting and failing every thirty minutes. I got a different reputable electrician in quickly who couldn't believe that a licensed electrician had made such mistakes. Made me wonder if the original electrical firm hired untrained employees. Now that I know more about the contracting business I understand how much these relationships are not about vetting but about working with your buddies.

On the pricing questions you asked your firm (yes, those look like the kind of double-talk answers we got): DB means that you pay 30% more than the real market price for everything. The firm will not be passing any discounts to you and the ultimate price will be higher than your quote.

This is the way DB firms have been doing it, all around the country, during the boom years. And there have been plenty of clients who were willing to pay for somebody else to worry about their projects. These clients didn't care much about their own preferences (or "vision"), just wanted something to get done. They didn't worry much about wasting money, either, because their incomes were going up or they thought their home value was going up. So there have been plenty of lambs to slaughter. I just didn't think I would enjoy my new kitchen if I felt like I was the one roasting in it.

While we've been waiting and refining our plans, I have tried to learn more about the contracting, remodeling and KD businesses and you might want to read up a little. Their publications spend a lot of time talking about qualified leads and upselling and suggest to me, at least, that membership in a building association isn't a guarantee of anything.

I have had great experiences with union contractors, however, so I can heartily recommend looking for the firms who are unionized. These firms seem to have longevity and their workers have better professional training. They don't do so much marketing, but they are the "honest tradesmen" we are all looking for.

hi frustrated 1.
I guess I am acting as the GC. If by that you mean I hired my own carpenter, electrician,plumber, flooring contractor. We knew what brand of cabinets we wanted (we used them in a prior kitchen re-model and liked them), so we went with a kitchen designer who deals with them. we used their design, which was really our design which they put the finishing touches on.

The carpenters name is Svendsen Contracting in Bernardsville

BTW - My number for the floors is wrong. The install cost for the entire first floor is about $3000. I don't know the material cost off the top of my head.

taliaferro,
My head is spinning- from your story and from all the feedback you are getting so I'll be brief.
1. Run, don't walk, from this outfit but be sure you take your plans with you that you have paid for if I understand the timeline correctly.
2. A red flag. You said this is the 2nd time a KD went way, way over on your budget. Not to hurt feelings here, but are you communicating your budget clearly? What is giving two different KDS this message. Are you doing something in dealing with them that sends a message "this woman actually has more $ to spend?)
3. You have young kids and can't micromanage. I get that so let that guide you to a KD you can communicate with better.
3. Stay calm and good luck.

Before I sent this firm my Questions, they requested a face-to-face meeting to "explain everything." I pressed them for responses to my questions first - which they provided, but the answers didn't make me feel any better about going forward with them. I have taken all of your comments and opinions and impressions to heart and decided to part ways with this firm. I won't even waste my time with a meeting.

Gwent,
I keep asking myself what I did wrong. I was clear about both my choices and budget this time (unlike the first time). I think that if you know what you want (which I have only recently refined), they don't need to know your budget. So, lesson #1, don't communicate your budget - even if they ask (which both firms did)!

Second, both of the prinicipals of these firms came to my house, and maybe that's not such a good thing, because one's home and it's contents probably telegraph your economic status. Lesson #2, I plan to bring my floorplan with measurements and design to them. That's all they need for a preliminary proposal.

The other thing I'd do differently is not specify my appliances. Since I'm buying my own, all they need to know is 48" regrigerator and 30" double oven stack, etc... I think that high-end appliances translate into "high-end kitchen."

I'm bummed that I've spent about $3,000 in fees (never mind the time invested!) and have to start over yet again, but I hope the drawings I possess are sufficient so that I can get to the costs stage with future KD's/GC's/Cabinetmakers. We'll see.

To those who suggested I GC myself - I wish I could, but I know my own limitations. I was the GC for my master bath remodel a few years ago; and, although I didn't make any costly mistakeks, the planning was really time consuming and the execution dragged on far too long.

cheril27,
I will email you! Thanks for offering me a lead:)

californiagirl,
you wrote: "DB means that you pay 30% more than the real market price for everything. The firm will not be passing any discounts to you and the ultimate price will be higher than your quote." Yes, yes, I'm looking at their prices and their quoted prices are exactly, if not more than published prices on the internet!

Finally, I do get it (NOW) that I will have to supervise and be involved with the project. I just hope that doesn't mean I have to micromanage. Is that unrealistic?

Thanks again to all of you for your help - this forum is a treasure!

SO glad you've given these characters the "heeve ho"! I totally understand that you don't have the time to GC your kitchen. My GC was SO wonderful. Just as he was about to start my kitchen, I got word that my Mom had breast cancer for the second time in 10 years and having a mastectomy in 2 days. I was so glad that I trusted this GC. During the 2 1/2 weeks that it took to totally renovate my kitchen (Yes, I said 2 1/2 weeks!), I was taking care of Mom. Every night I came home to a clean workplace in the kitchen area. My GC called me every night to go over everything. I was lucky.

You can pay a lot less and have a GC do your kitchen with your desired results. Don't pay top dollar for some snobby kitchen designers. You still have to be involved certainly, but not necessarily have to babysit a GC. Take your time and look for a good one. I still say go to a local lumber store where contractors buy their materials and ask for referrals! In this economy the good GC's are more available than ever!

This forum has taught me SO much while I was doing my kitchen and I know how invaluable it will be to you.

Don't worry about the $3,000 already spent. Consider it to be spent wisely on a good education in kitchen renovation.

I look forward to seeing your kitchen progress!

Barb

PS Mom's totally recovered and doing great!

Thank you Barb! You were blessed to find a gem in your GC, and I'm so happy to hear that your mom is now healthy!!

Sorry Taliaferro -- But how can you say:

- "I think that if you know what you want (which I have only recently refined), they don't need to know your budget. So, lesson #1, don't communicate your budget - even if they ask (which both firms did)!"

then complain that they didn't hit your budget? That's not realistic, and it's not fair.

Before reading that, I was going to say that your quotes were consistently too high because of some combination of:
a) they didn't believe you meant it when you told them your budget; or
b) your budget really isn't realistic for the kitchen you're describing.

But if you didn't even tell them your budget? Just a list of top-end appliances, expensive tiles and rare slabs? How can you blame them for thinking anything other than 'High-dollar' kitchen. She wants top quality and is willing to pay for it."?

If you are sure of what you want, I'm going to suggest that you be very clear and very consise: "I want THIS kitchen for THIS price, and I don't want to waste YOUR time or MY time. If you can't to this job for this price, please tell me and save us both the trouble of bidding the whole thing out."

Then if the first 4 or 5 contractors tell you that you can't get what you want for that price, ask them to tell you what you CAN get for $100K. Could be a slightly less exotic slab, some mainstream plumbing fixtures, and a nice but not drop-dead floor tile can get you there. Or that a $100K contractor mindset can then get upgraded into some higher-end materials as the job progresses. It's much harder for a contractor to see where they can cut out $66K worth of 'fat' (even if it's there) than it is to budget a $100K job, then upgrade a few materials.

But Sweeby, this time she WAS clear about her budget "I was clear about both my choices and budget this time (unlike the first time)."

I am unsure myself how how clear one should be about one's budget, however. I wonder if an estimate ever came a dime under the stated budget. Does more work just get added to what is necessary?

Sweeby,
you wrote: "But if you didn't even tell them your budget? Just a list of top-end appliances, expensive tiles and rare slabs? How can you blame them for thinking anything other than 'High-dollar' kitchen. She wants top quality and is willing to pay for it."?"
---I believe you misunderstood. I did tell them what my budget was, as well as my choices, all of which I outlined in my first post. When they came in to look at my space, they felt it could be done. It was upon that basis that I retained them.

oops maureeninmd, I should have read on before posting a reply to sweeby:)

Whether or not to communicate one's budget number is a big question mark. Folks on this forum seem to go both ways. I think it's important if you are not sure what kind of cabs you want or the appliances and finishes you have in mind. But if you know what you want, then my position now is DON'T TELL. In my both instances, I was asked on day one, and felt compelled to divulge my budget. I'm still not sure how best to diplomatically sidestep that question the next time I'm asked.

Speaking as someone from "the other side", I cannot design a kitchen without having a clue as to what the budget range will be and a list of "needs, wants, and would be nices". I use the car analogy a lot because I think it relates well, so I'd like to know whether you want a mid level Chevy with all of the extras, or a entry level Mercedes with no add ons. Both are probably about the same price, but the expectations and aesthetics are different. Maybe you can develop your own type of analogy to let GCs know what you're expecting and where you put yourself in the curve without using hard numbers if you feel you're telegraphing too deep a pockets to your potentials. For your list of wants and choices that you've listed in the past, I'd expect a kitchen like yours to be in the 100K range, depending on labor market and cabinet line you end up choosing. So, find a way to communicate that you want an lower upper end remodel not to exceed 100K, and when you find the right designer/GC, you'll get what you asked for. There may be a few toads to kiss first though. ;)

My friend just finished a high end kitchen and came in a few $1000 UNDER budget

How'd she do it - I was DYING to know.

So it seemed they communicated what they wanted but were not brand specific and when the KD tried to nail a $ amount they told her 30% of their budgeted amount. Oh and they went to all the meetings in OLD clothes and my friend used an old tote as a purse instead of her designer purses. Also went low key on the jewelry. (These guys are expert at reading how much they think you can afford - give them a hint - they'll take it all)

They made a couple of upgrades to the KD's plan and a few as the project went along and came in just under budget. I was amazed!!

The kitchen is gorgeous and only someone else who is TKO will know the difference between a $1200 faucet and a $300 one. Both are good, both control water flow and both have the same quality control. Same with the floor and backsplash - gorgeous but you wouldn't know they didn't cost a fortune - just put together with flair.

Now I know someone else who went with a well known Chicago D&B firm. They paid well over $200 k for their kitchen and are proud of it - they'll tell anyone who asks who designed it and how much it cost - big status symbol for them that has too much money to know what to do with it. But she has an induction cooktop (latest and greatest so she says) and brand new top of the line MAUVIEL COPPER POTS, which were a gift from the DB firm for doing the work, which ARE NOT EVEN INDUCTION CAPABLE. Makes me LOL everytime I see her eating at a local take out. Oh and if she ever were to cook she'd have to climb over her barrier island to get from the sink and fridge to the cooktop.

If you have decided to move on to someone else, it will give me hope that firms are supposed to communicate something about their take on the budget and wish list BEFORE coming to us with a complete plan that's so far over budget.

Perhaps there is a communication style involved in which you really must say, in kind of italics, the budget is firm and if you can't do a kitchen for that, tell me now ! Perhaps it really is their experience that people really don't mean what they say about the budget, and they're quite successful at luring folks over their budgets, so that it is truly in their best interests as a company to go about it that way. Problem is, I don't relate well to that style, so I truly hope to find someone that actually tries to help ME.

I just hate to think that so many companies actually do by maybe getting lucky and taking one person for a big ride with overinflated profits, and cutting it lots closer with someone more savvy.

I know that is actually the model for many workers and contractors and it's naive to think otherwise--of course, I see it a bit differently when done as seasonal or with the ups and downs of the economy (you will pay a housepainter less in the off season always, and less when the economy is down). But hugely inflated costs seem worse than just the law of general averages, where they will make a bit more on one job than another, always, and not even always as they predict, because stuff happens and they have to eat costs, too.

So this is a really helpful wakeup thread, but it still chaps me.

Of course I see that I'm supposed to do some homework and know something about what stuff costs, but I desperately want to believe that the KD is also supposed to bring some kind of design and budget savvy to the deal. Aren't they supposed to ask questions about the wish list and the person's lifestyle and what're the most important things you're trying to achieve in your new kitchen? As in, is it better floorplan, more storage, great light, are you dead set on "professional" appliances, or what? Shouldn't the "wish list" also have the flip side question, if you had to economize on some of your items, where would it bother you the least--? Would you like suggestions of substitutions for common items that give good value for less money?

Does anyone actually "design" for individual people and suggest options, rather than just putting in what's easy (you said you liked this (brand, size, etc) , so we put it in)?

I just used to love those magazine spreads in which they created 3 rooms at 3 different price ranges and you could see what you might get for what price. Of course, a kitchen is the more complex than a DR or LR because you have such a huge price range on so many different elements, but still...

taliaferro,

We, too, had each contractor and architect we interviewed come see the house (we hadn't even moved in yet). It took me about a year after we moved in (and six months after we fired the DB firm) to figure out that the local NARI chapter meets every month at the country club across the street from the house. They regularly park in front of our house.

Many of the folks we originally interviewed, including the fired firm, are active in that chapter. Not one person mentioned their familiarity with the house or the fact that they had lunch once a month in the neighborhood.

I think loves2cook4six's friend had it right. My new strategy is to give sizes and other pertinent info but not brands and or any details that might suggest high end anything. The internet is your friend when it comes to getting likely prices or price ranges. Email and faxing and the phone can help you avoid getting zip coded, at least by some folks.

Btw, your plans look great and I don't think you will have a lot of trouble finding somebody reasonable to realize them. Get more bids from a broad range of contractors and let the bidders know they have competition. As I mentioned in my first response, it's now a buyer's market. Let that keep up your confidence.

Talia -- I'm so glad you decided against the firm! I didn't want to offer an opinion before as I have no experience with a kitchen reno in your budget. Mine was a relatively modest $20k - no structural work but I replaced every single thing.

The one thing we do have in common though is that I didn't have time to manage my project either -- but I didn't have a choice, having a "more than full time" job/career. Yet when I fantasized about having a GC, I realized, "who am I kidding? I'm gonna be all over this no matter who is in charge! It's my home!"

I did luck out though, finding the best licensed, insured, experienced carpenter, contractor -- George -- I could have found through asking around a LOT. Amazing, really. As the "GC" I hired the electrician, plumber and floor tile guy, (all referrals) but not without consulting George, my carpenter first who had a ton of experience and knowledge of other trades who checked their costs first for me, helped me tweak and negotiate, etc.

George helped me with my lighting plan, a rather extensive one, for me and then he came here with me and "supervised" to make sure it was done right and according to plan. When I couldn't get out of a work meeting and get home for my granite install, George jumped in and then fielded a major problem with the island -- cut wrong size -- fabricator error. He called the fab and quickly resolved the problem and a new island top was put in the following week.

And George? He removed and demo'd old cabs, installed the new ones and moldings and trim, cleared all trash and did cleanup, made me a second pantry with new door and shelves, put in new sink and faucet, new range and micro, new dishwasher and fridge, moved a misplaced chandelier (my fault) and patched/painted ceiling hole, kicked out the sloppy painter and found me a new one, patched kitchen floor after I decided to move a radiator a month after floor had been done, added new saddles... and I'm sure I missed a few things... which came to about $2,500.

I gave him an additional $500.00 which he finally did take... not just for his extra supervision of others (that he throughly enjoyed doing and did so well with a very gentle touch) and jumping over here when I needed him and answering my 1,000+ questions about everything, but for caring about this job as if it were his own home. (I also gave him a like-new circular saw that I used only once some months ago and have been too scared to use again.)
I also gave him 2 referrals that have turned into good jobs for him.

Really, I feel like I owe him so much more! I think there are some real GEMS out there at reasonable cost that just need to be found. Of course with your budget and plans, you need more than a lone super-dedicated carpenter, but I'm hoping you'll find a firm or KD or GC or all three that will be your "George!"

Note to Lovestocook -- I found 2 great Mauviel pieces at Home Goods! More great gems at...

I apologise if my post sounded overly strident above - I get a little carried away sometimes. :(

Also, I really hope that it didn't sound condescending. That was definitely not my intention.

I'm getting "old folk's disease" I think - that condition where you start to think that because one way of doing things works well for you, the rest of the world should adopt your methods as well...

Sailormann -- though I'm not the OP, I think your post was right on the money! No, you were neither strident nor condescending. I think you posted wise words. :)

live_wire_oak,
you wrote: "For your list of wants and choices that you've listed in the past, I'd expect a kitchen like yours to be in the 100K range."
--That's what I thought and I did keep some of my acutal budget in my pocket, so that I could add on later.

frankie_in_zone_7,
--Excellent points! I think an ideal KD would offer material suggestions at three price points to achieve the same look (low, middle, & high), thus leaving it up to the client to choose whether to save or splurge.

californiagirl,
--it sounds like we're in the same boat. It's crazy that we feel compelled to hide things about ourselves to get honest pricing.

minnette99,
--boy, were you lucky to find George!

sailormann,
--I appreciate your wisdom and am grateful that you generously spared some of your time sharing it with me. Thank you dear:)

Hiding your wealth only works if you are using a cabinet store. If you are shopping for a GC, they must come to your house, especially if your design involves moving plumbing or structural changes. Otherwise, there's no way they can give you a true estimate for the labor. For instance, I live in an old house, so retrofitting anything is labor intensive vs if the house were newer construction.

While you're waiting to meet with a few GC's, why not take your design to a few cabinet places to get a better idea of cabinet and installation costs? Better yet, do you have the name and number of the custom cabinetmaker the design/build firm was going to use?

Taliaferro,

I just had to respond as we share the same name. My maiden name is Taliaferro. I was born and raised in Ohio. My Dad died when I was 6, and I never got to know him. I was unwilling to give up my name when I married. I legally changed my middle name to Taliaferro when I married.

Elaine

taliaferro, I am curious, you have two designs from different KD's. Have you taken either of them anyplace else? Or sent them to some place like Crown Point just for comparison?

Have you made any progress?

i remember reading your saga about a year ago when i frequented this forum. i am sorry you are still struggling! not sure where you live, but i live in suburban Maryland, and we had redone our entire kitchen this past summer for the total amount of 52K.
I ordered my very modern cabinets from Italy and that was 28K, the buggest expense. Appliances ( all new) came in at 8k, we replaced the floor ( and fixed the underfloor), put down Amtico flooring, and got a very nice granite - not i take that back, gorgeous granite, type A, which cost me another 6 K. Labor was relatively small - maybe 8-9.
i can't imagine what people do for that kind of money your KDs want - but best luck to you.