This plan is much better. I agree that the best place for the appliance garage you want in the plan as you show it would be right next to the Advantium, on the left of it.

I totally get your point about the counter space near the range, but if you're using the Advantium primarily as a microwave, it would probably be most useful right next to the fridge.

Question, what's that whole area bounded by the desk and the sunroom for? It's really too big in proportion to the rest to leave unfurnished, but I don't see a good way to furnish it. Were you planning a seating area? Or a second table? Is it, maybe, a baking area? You could put in a furniture style, freestanding island and wall ovens by the pantry. Maybe just a big stand up worktable. Kind of a project island, since you have that big sink in your kitchen island?

Your island shape leads me to think you expect people to sit there, but will they be comfortable sitting in a walkway with their backs to an open, empty room? There is enough room in the dining room as you've shown it, but it's pretty tight. Is there any way you can move the fridge over a little?

If you don't have plans other than the desk for the area by the sunroom, have you considered turning the kitchen and using the whole back wall, plus an island or two? Maybe have the pantry door in the family room? I think that would open up the kitchen space more, give back some to the dining room, and utilize the currently empty section.

All things considered, I would put the fridge where you show the Advantium and scoot the Adv over just enough to be next to it. You would still be able to access the fridge easily from everywhere and everything. You would retain great dish storage across from your dw and close to the table...which you'll lose if you move the Adv next to the fridge where it is now. In an armoire or not, I personally don't think it does much for your dining area to have the fridge poking into it.

This way you keep the cooking tasks to one side of the sink, including gathering all your supplies and ingredients from fridge and pantry, and the cleanup and dish storage has its own zone. And, as I said, I feel the fridge is still handy for others not cooking and they won't be in your way at all.

I also wonder about that space in front of the French Doors. A lot of square footage left as a pathway to the sun room...Dancing, maybe? ;-)

The only reason I don't like the idea of the advantium next to the fridge is because of a lack of space to put things down when taking out or putting away stuff in the fridge. I have that in my apartment here in NY and HATE not having a ledge next to my fridge. Can you tell I HATE it? LOL. I know I personally like having a fridge next to or near where I serve as I'm constantly forgetting something, (butter, juice, etc.). But then again, I'm not known as the most organized person in the world!

BTW; Plllog may be onto something but unfortunately I have to prepare to teach a class in a few.

In our last house, we had counter next to the fridge, but I always used the island across from it for the landing space. I can't remember if you're having a French door fridge, Jbrig, but landing space next to a French door fridge is useless, since a door blocks access to counter on either side. The other option would be to move the Advantium to the left...to the wall or maybe a foot from it, and have the appliance workspace in between the Adv and fridge.

The buffet storage makes that counter feel really long. It's nice to have the storage, but I think it would look better, with upper cabinets in glass, or something different from the rest of the cabinetry.

I agree that the opening to the sunroom feels awkward. While I love the idea of the sunroom, how are you using it? Don't you have a TV in the family room? Do you want a second seating/TV area? A place for plants? A quiet area to sit?

For me, I dream of a sunporch with plants, herbs, tea things and a cozy table and chairs for having tea with friends. Maybe a little wicker loveseat and coffee table, too. I also would love to have some tea books and shelves for tea pots, tea cups, etc. So, it's kind of a theme, but it wouldn't work for everyone.

In your case, if you really want a seating/TV area, maybe your small table and chairs (bistro style?) could go in the kitchen. They are small enough they wouldn't block your pathway too much and it would give you a place to sit and have a drink or visit with someone, without having to sit at the bigger table or island. It really depends on how you use YOUR space :)

I do like having the frig and MW close. Ok, so let me look at moving frig back to where Advantium is and putting Adv to the left of that. I can use my island for landing space--that's actually what I do now and it works ok. I was hoping to not have to do that, but I know you can't always get everything you want.

The only problem I see w/ the above idea, other than not quite ideal landing space is--I will need 48" aisle between frig and island (b/c not a Fr. door frig). If I want to keep my sink centered in the island, I will have to extend island 6 more inches into the area w/ the table (so island = 24" cab-42"sink base-24" DW cab). There will be a header beam above the island where we're taking that wall out between the 2 rooms. The countertop edge of the island *was* going to line up just below the beam, but that can't happen now if I push the island down. Is that going to look "off" now, or am I overanalyzing that? Not sure if I've explained that clearly.

Also, I want to keep some landing space to the left of the Advantium, so how can I work the appliance garage? Like I said, it needs to be min. 27" wide.

Pllog and everyone else,

About that awkward space opening into sunroom... I know, but i just don't know how to fix that. This is a remodel, so there are definitely some constraints to work within. The sunroom will be an addition, and there is no other place to extend out, hence the weird space there.

Yep, rhome, that might make a good dance floor :-). I may just have to wait until everything else is complete and before being able to get a better idea of what to do
there, if anything.

cpartist,
I liked the frig closer to the eating area, too, but I think the advantages of moving it back to the other side outweigh the distance factor. Maybe it'll force me to be better organized, or else I'll just send the kids back and forth to the frig :-)

Lavender lass,
forgive me for a being a bit slow tonight, but not sure where your question was headed...? The sunroom will be used as an additional sitting area, w/ a smaller TV than our main Family Rm. Looking forward to having a quiet space I can escape to when the ball game gets to blaring during football season or when company comes to watch the game and the ladies want to chat :-) I like your sunroom vision--hoping to incorporate a similar theme as you mention.

You know, with your issues about the fridge, etc. I was looking at that first design, again. I really like the fridge recessed into the pantry, with the landing space. What if you kept that design, with the stove and everything else, the same as plan 1, but used the alternate sink location? Then, you could put a small prep sink, opposite the stove, and have the rest of the island for a work space.

You'd also have more room around the dining room table, without the additional cabinetry. It also keeps that area in front of the french doors, from looking so big and empty. Now, it's part of the kitchen, and the fridge and landing area, balance out the desk and coffee area, and lead you into the sunroom. I really like it :)

No idea what your constraints are, but this is what I'd do:

Makes the awkward open space lets awkward, gives you lots of space next to stove and fridge and I always like microwaves in corner b/c it makes the best use of corner space. You can make the stove wall kind of a focal point then.

Sorry for the unprofessional photoshopping and white spaces :)

With this setup, you have very little prep space...only about 24" (the side of the sink opposite the DW). Your Prep Zone will most likely end up on the island b/c of the single water source, regardless of what you "plan". Once you add one or more child into the mix, I think you're going to have congested Prep & Cooking Zones...everyone will be trying to work at the island where the sink is.

In my old kitchen, I had only 24" of prep space and it was the #1 driving force for our renovation...I hated having to constantly move things around to fit in that 24" of space...it sometimes drove my nuts! You really need at least 36" of workspace next to the sink, preferably 42". (I have approx 42" in my new kitchen and it seems perfect. The prep sink isn't too far away from the cooktop and I still have plenty of work room b/w them.)

It's nice to have that space around the range, but I'm not sure how much space more than about 24" on either side of the range will be used with no water source. (I.e., wasted/unused counter space.)

Pantry...I would move the door to the pantry closer to the kitchen to cut down on walking distance by a couple of feet.

Space in front of the sunroom ideas....

* How about a nice hutch for storing good china, your children's art projects, or other decorative items (on the wall w/the pantry).

* How about a nice comfy chair in the corner (after you move the pantry's door to the left) and maybe a small table?

I'm in the middle of a big project, so I don't have time to work the details of this. The shapes and sizes would have to be worked out, because there are a lot of flaws, but this is a sketch of the kind of thing I was talking about. It would probably work better with an island more like what you originally drew, and a butcher block or other small island in the fridge area. Or something. As I said, I didn't have a chance to really work the layout. Just to show it as a long shape rather than an L.

The sunroom is beautiful and I understand needing a quiet space during the ball game! LOL I only wondered if it was another family room, with more windows, or more of a quiet space, to get away from the family room :)

For me, if I know how I'm going to use the room (and maybe how it serves a function the other rooms do not) it helps me think about how the room relates to the other rooms around it. I was trying to get a better idea, how your sunroom related to the family room and kitchen. It sounds like it's going to be a great space!

The plan above has some nice features, but you lose the wall of storage. Could you still incorporate that, by moving things over a few feet?

Lots of great ideas...and I still like your original plan, too!

Thanks for drawing that out for me, pllog, but we can't move the doorway between the Fam. Rm & Kitchen. We did look at it, as it would def. help w/ kitchen layout, but it then creates a host of unsolveable layout probs in the Family Rm.

I am looking and considering the various options y'all have so thoughtfully proposed, just in a bit of a time crunch for the next day or so w/ other activities.

Thanks again to all of you who so give of your time on here helping out us kitchen-obsessed folks :-)

lavender lass,
Thanks for sticking w/ me here! You mentioned using the alternate sink location, but I cannot wait to move my sink off its current position facing the wall and be able to look out through the sunroom and into the yard where my kids play. It's one of my main desires in this remodel...

beaglesdoitbetter,
I seriously considered turning the island, but if I did, I think it would have to be shortened too much to be of much use. Keeping it longer, would, I think cause it to interfere too much w/ the walkway between the Fam. Rm & Kitchen. Thanks for brainstorming on my behalf, though.

buehl,
Thanks so much for taking a look at my layout. Based on my personal preferences, I really think I'll be ok w/ prep space directly behind the sink. For whatever reason, I prefer to work next to the range instead of sink. It's just my own idiosyncrasy, I guess!

I do like the idea of moving the pantry door down to the left, both to save a few steps and b/c I would like to put a chair in that area. Thanks :-)

**While I’ll probably end up having to put Advantium right next to the refrig, is there any way to possibly push the Advantium down to the left enough to have a small landing area between the frig and Adv? Maybe I could do a small appliance garage to the left of the Adv to avoid having a dark, odd-looking corner there..? Then I could put the longer appliance garage down at the other end, across from the DW…
And IF that would look ok, then should I stay w/ 24” deep counters on wall A or go to 30”deep to minimize how refrig’s depth (refrig is 36” deep but planning to recess into studs)?

Ok, so here is the latest proposal (note: forgot to finish drawing the range; it’s on left wall, across from trash pullout on island):

I can understand not wanting your sink to face the wall! Looking out towards the new sunroom will be much nicer :)

This probably wouldn't work, or I'm sure you would have mentioned it before...but can you switch the dining room and kitchen areas? It would give you more room for your kitchen area with island...and maybe the computer desk moved down to this area.

It may not work with your windows in the front, but it would make it easier to set up the kitchen, without working around the door to the family room and it would give you a longer run of cabinets for your fridge and maybe even a coffee bar or other "fun stuff".

Anyway, I really like your new plan, but I just thought I would ask. Have a great weekend :)

I be thinking more like this...
{{gwi:1961350}}

Avast and like that.

That's a really interesting layout, but the fridge needs more room to open and they want their Advantium near the fridge.

If you like the above plan (which has some great storage details) I'd put the fridge where the oven is, with the Advantium nearby, with maybe a landing area in between.

If opening a space to the family room is not possible, then what about the cooktop on that wall? You could center it and make it a real feature, leaving plenty of space on the other leg of the L for prep space, which you'll need with the sink on the island.

I remember that your island placement is important, I believe, so that it lines up with an existing beam. The island could stay exactly as it is in your plan, leaving more room for the fridge door to swing open.

While I have no idea if you like this or not...bmorepanic, I love the activity table, wall of storage, corner cabinet and display features. The desk would fit well, where the storage area is, between the file storage. Maybe a bookcase at the end of the fridge, for cookbooks?

Thanks bmore, we actually considered some plans similar to that. I really want the sink to stay in the island, which means putting any other appliance down at the bottom end of that left wall creates logistical issues w/ the dishwasher. We've also decided to keep the table out of the way of the sunroom entrance. Thanks for your help, though; I always appreciate it when others take their time to offer suggestions.

lavender lass,
At one point, I had a similar plan as you suggested in your most recent post (w/ refrig down at bottom of that left wall and table at sunroom entrance), but since I want to keep the sink in the island, it created a problem w/ the Adv. placement--if I put it too near the refrig, it would have interfered w/ DW operation and w/ my dish storage area. The Advantium is built-in, similar to a wall oven, so it is quite heavy/bulky, design-wise. Thanks again for all your suggestions. It's always good to have alternate options presented.

J- I should know, but what is an Advantium? Is it like an oven/microwave combination? Does it have to be by the fridge?

The only reason I ask is that in all your plans, it seems the Advantium and the fridge are the difficult pieces to place. If you could separate them a bit, it might be easier.

I still like your very first plan, which Rhome did in September. The pantry set-up is nice, the refrigerator is close to the family room (which is better for us than close to the dining room) and the Advantium was close by, but not next to the fridge.

If the sunroom doors were centered on the room...and the island was like all the others (with the sink and curve for stools, etc.) this would work really well. The stove could be opposite the sink, with an appliance garage in the corner, or closer to the Advantium. You'd have plenty of prep space on both sides of the cooktop...and still have room for your dish storage.

I think this is a great location for your fridge, since you need extra room for the doors to open...and people aren't in your way, when they grab something out of it. That door is really going to be in your way, I'm thinking, if it's too close to the island. It makes sense to have the fridge and pantry next to each other.

As for the table, I think it works very nicely in its current location and I can see not wanting to block your french doors. It sounds like you're pretty close to having your perfect plan. Good luck and let us know what you decide :)

You're exactly right, LL, the frig and Advantium are my problem areas, given my desire to keep sink in island.

Advantium is a speedcook/convection microwave. I linked below to the model I am getting. As you can see, it essentially mimics a wall oven in terms of space requiremts. If it were just the size of a typical microwave, might be a bit easier to find a place for it.

Re: rhome's layout from her Sept 19 post. That refrig placement has some real advantages in terms of freeing up room for the Advantium's placement and also the frig door opening aspect. I like the frig's proximity to the pantry and having it tucked out of the way like that. But, I fear the disadvantages may overrule: while it gets the frig out of the way, it also...gets the frig out of the way. In other words, it eliminates door opening issues but it places it approx 15' from the sink (in terms of walking distance) and potentially that far from the range, as well (depending on which wall range ended up on). And, there would be no nearby landing area. I'm just afraid it would create a LOT of walking back-and-forth and forth-and-back to sink/range/prep area(s). My previous kitchen had a long path between those same points and it wore me out, especially on those days when my back is acting up.

I just have to keep reminding myself that NO layout will be PERFECT, and that holds true even moreso in a remodel, I suspect. Having to work w/in the confines of existing structures is a challenge we all face in a remodel. The trick is to make it work as best we can for our OWN family's needs. But just how to make that play out sure is easier said than done!

Here is a link that might be useful: GE Profile Advantium 240 volt, 30

I don't remember...has anyone mentioned the Advantium drawer to you? One of the best pieces of advice I received for my own kitchen was to have a drawer under the Advantium to hold the trays and shelf, and pretty much nothing else so that they're easy to get at. A lot of people figure they'll just put the trays in their tray cabinet or bottom drawer, and then it's too much trouble to get them out, so they underutilize the Advantium. GE makes an accessory drawer, but it has a lot of wasted space and it's expensive. My drawer (from cabinetmaker) is a bit bigger than it needs to be, and there's room for microwave covers and a few potholders without making it hard to switch out the trays.

I wish I could be more helpful on the layout. L with island generally works very well even when it's designed "wrong". I keep wanting to tear up the space and start over but given your constraints and budget I don't know how to get to something better....though I'd like to pull the sunroom back toward the kitchen because the dance floor still bothers me. Other than that, I really don't know what can be done, and even that probably means mucking with load bearing walls that makes it totally not worth it.

Little bit self-indulgence, but I'm going to explain what I'm thinking when drawing something like that. I hope its understood that I want you to have the very best kitchen possible.

First of all, I don't think we live in an era where the scullery maid spends all day washing the pots. With dishwashers and some non-stick cookware, doing the dishes is a fairly short part of every day - in our case, maybe 20-30 minutes a day, tops. We cook multiple meals per day but generally for two. I don't believe in prioritizing the view from the cleanup area - both from the relative duration of the task compared to other kitchen tasks, but also because when I'm doing cleanup tasks, I'm looking at the counters, the dishes and their storage area rather than the view.

When cleanup and prep are the same sink, I believe its better to have multiple paths to the sink - which you sorta do. Other family members need to work on a cooking task or do cleanup or setup without bumping too much into the alpha chef. One path to the water is behind the chef.

I don't dispute that you'd want to work on the island. One of the changes that a prep sink introduces is that the chef spends a great deal of their time interacting with the prep sink - its location makes it the perfect place to wash veg, fill or drain a pot or wash hands.

In your latest plan, the island is kinda small for significant prep. At most you have two 2 foot sections of counter with one or more possibly containing stacked dishes. The location doesn't look so good to me - having had my prior cleanup sink in almost the same relative location to a range. I think you'll either end up miffed all the time because stuff will pile up on the island OR you'll turn away and do prep on the back counter where you can spread out - kinda negating the whole interaction thing.

Because of the odd orientation of the room, the view that is emphasized is looking through some windows on a wall on the other side of a window wall across the dance floor - the actual view begins a minimum of 28 feet away and more usually over 30 feet away. I believe reality is that the "view" will stop at the first set of glass.

I think the ability to interact with people will be very important to your kitchen. With an opening into the family room, you can connect to people there, and people at either table or the activity area. When guests come bearing unexpected salads, they can use the cleanup sink to finish up any final do-dads. In our family, somebody ALWAYS wants to use the oven or the micro too.

I really like to have others in the kitchen not crossing too much through the work area. This leads to thoughts of perhaps putting the advantium in the island near the cleanup sink or establishing a beverage ref closer to the table or doing a small ref as shown in rhome's first design above. People foraging for drinks or some types of snacks will not want to come into the "hot zone", they'll have access to a lot of what they need without it.

I moved the dining table to the dance floor because --

(1) It will be the "showiest" location with a lot of glittering glass.
(2) It gives others a place to sit while you're finishing things up - and you can talk to them without turning your head.
(3) There is enough clearance for everyday use and the slanted angle can provide seating for 8 AND STILL have enough clearance.
(4) The slanted angle table look is pretty to me.
(5) In the other possible location near the front windows, the large table always comes out in an unbalanced location and it would drive me insane.

The french doors into the sunroom space look unbalanced to me from the sunroom side. Add that to the inconvenience of having to preserve the walkway through the center of the dance floor and I'd choose a single glass door every time and put it in the best location to actually use it. If you plan to leave the doors open all the time, why have the doors? The door location also does something odd to the furniture placement in the sunroom - a tv that is 16-18 feet from the seating and clustering the seating upholstery pieces in the narrow, small section of the room and a card table in the bigger, wider end are examples.

Lastly, I'd choose to open the load bearing wall to the family room in a heart beat and get a much better kitchen/dining plan over the addition. It'd be cheaper, even including some new family room furniture and I'd get more of what I valued.

J- Okay, that Avantium is cool! I can see why you want to get one for your new kitchen :)

What about a refrigerator drawer, or even two? You could put it/them under the dish storage (one possibility) where they would be really close to the sink and the stove. This would give you a place to put the smaller items, while leaving plenty of space for big items, water, pop, etc. in the big fridge.

I've thought about this myself a few times, with some of my layouts, but I've been gravitating to a smaller kitchen lately (shocking, I know LOL) but fridge drawers are a great way to keep a few items handy, without the big fridge right in the work area. If you had veggies, butter or margerine, some cheese, cream or milk, etc. that would be a lot of the items (at least a lot of mine) that I run back and forth grabbing, while I'm also trying to stir a sauce or wash something at the sink.

Your landing space by the fridge (first plan) seems fine, for the occasional item and usually I get the big ingredients from the pantry and fridge before I start a meal. What do you think?

As for you back, totally been there...after lifting too much hay for horses a few years back. Another good reason to think about dish washer drawers, too :)

I think the stove on the back wall could make an incredible focal point. What are you thinking about for stove/cooktop? What style are you leaning towards? I know the plan is the first step, but what are you ideas for the room? Love to know details on your design...the plan is so important for function, but the design...that's the fun part!

One more thing, if fridge drawers work, then the big fridge and the Advantium make a great snack area. With landing areas by each appliance, people can grab a snack or heat up a frozen item, without being in your work triangle. This is great, if you have kids...especially teenagers! LOL

Thanks for the reminder about the Advantium drawer, pllog. Did you make yours at typical drawer height or did you put it at countertop height w/ your Adv on top of that?

Ahh, lavender lass, thought you might be on to something w/ the refrig drawers idea, but dh has (nicely) nixed that as an option, so I'm going to just stop heading in that direction.

Alright, then if you're keeping the big fridge in the work area, I think you have it in the best place. I think the Advantium works well there, too.

Now, you're putting your dish storage above the appliance garage, across from the dishwasher, right? What if you had additional "fancy" dish storage, where the fridge was in Rhome's original plan. I really liked the old pantry set up (with the freezer) and having cabinets on that side of the room, seemed to balance your desk/computer areas. It also gives you more storage! It may not be by the table, but you can see it from the table :)

Yes, LL, we do plan to put some type of buffet/hutch type piece there. You're exactly right on both the balance and storage issues. I'd like to find an antique piece to put there, but if not, I can have my cab-maker build one in. There are lots of beautiful examples of built-ins here on the Kitchens forum and the FKB.

bmorepanic,
Yikes, I am so sorry I didn't acknowledge your post in my last post. You obviously put a great deal of forethought into it, and I thank you so much for devoting that much time to me and my funky dance-floor kitchen :-) I really appreciate your efforts to optimize my layout. This has been such a learning process for me, and your creativity has helped to really challenge my thinking about my possible options.

Lavender, answering your questions from a few posts back... planning on a GE Cafe gas range w/ double ovens, GE Profile Advantium 240 volt wall speedcook oven and Fisher & Paykel disdrawers w/ tall tube. Already have a new faucet in the box--Price Pfister Hanover in SS and an ISE Evolution Excel garbage disposal. Got 'em both on eBay--too good of deals to pass up. Wanting to use some of these tiles for backsplash behind the range.. I have the frog tile featured on the first page of their website. I've been carrying it around as my sample!

Here is a link that might be useful: Raku tiles

My warming drawer (integrated and panelled) lines up on top with my other drawers just below the counter, the trays drawer is on top of that, and then the Advantium. There's a deep drawer beneath the warming drawer, and a standard over oven cabinet above the Advantium. Sorry I don't have a better picture. This is during construction, before the drawer faces were on, but perhaps you can get a better sense this way anyway.

J- I love the frog tile! Very cute. Lately, I've been collecting a few frogs myself, but they've been for my fairy garden. It's actually a butterfly/hummingbird garden, where the nieces can dress up as the fairies :)

Are you using a wood tone cabinet? Sounds like stainless steel appliances...what about the rest of the backsplash? Are you thinking more arts and crafts? Now that you have your layout done, the fun stuff begins :)

Thanks so much for picture, pllog. Very helpful to have a visual. Also, I've always admired your beautiful backsplash. I remember your lengthy struggle to get it right; your perseverance paid off!

Your garden sounds beautiful, lavender lass. I plan to use a number of the different nature-themed tiles from the website I posted. I have spoken on the phone to the artist, Nancy Cannon. She was a real pleasure to deal with; I am looking forward to getting my tiles ordered soon.

Re: style...Not heading in an arts & crafts direction; probably more of a Fr. country/cottage/ traditional look :-) Cabs will be creamy uppers and stained lowers.

J- That sounds beautiful. Of course, that's my favorite style, too, so I might be a little biased! LOL

Feel free to use ANY of my inspiration pictures, if they help at all :)