Trying out ALL possibilities for free on paper, getting adventurous moving doors, windows, plumbing just "to see," should be a rule, and I don't believe in hampering yourself with other peoples' rules. :) ITM, to me that window seems to be driving the design. If it's really worth it, fine. Presumably everyone, cook and sitters, have a nice view out and the exterior makes moving/reshaping it, for instance into two nice windows flanking the range, an undesirable proposition? (?.) BTW, windows that sweep low are extremely desirable when the view's close and/or low, such as a pretty courtyard or a sweep of lawn down a hill, a potential waste other use when there's nothing special to see, and an outright detriment when the view is of the driveway, or even, too often, just the backs and legs of patio furniture. Is a nice part of your view close or otherwise low? FWIW, your first design satisfies my primary requirement for a good place to work pretty nicely. That's a good stretch of counter between fridge and stove, with a window too, and the sink's nearby. I'd put the DW on the far side of the sink to designate that far side the scullery, and I might consider sliding the sink over just a bit to create a better adjunct prep area on its right. I'd also move the oven to the side, away from the window, as it would hardly enhance that #1 feature, and I'd work on balancing the two sides of the kitchen visually a bit, perhaps bringing a bit of counter/openness to the right with a landing for the ovens, or...? BTW, concerning the range depth problem, how about a drop-in cooktop? They need only about 21-22" of space, so they fit in standard counters. Mine gained me critical inches, and I really like the serene, uninterrupted sweep of counter and drawers. The hood above gives all the architectural definition needed. In your case, the greater simplicity would also enhance the window and view. If you have room, I'd definitely reshape the island so people could see each other as they chat. Half of conversation is body language, after all. I'm intrigued by Liriodendron's suggestion for other type of social seating and how that could play out. I like a table and chairs smack in the middle, but I'm pretty sure that's not what's in mind.

I am not sure where the walled in heater is that you are referring too. Attached would be a nice layout for your space. Ref= Refrigerator R=Range DW= Dishwasher C=rolling cart

Hey guys, thank you for the additional input. As for the hanging hood - we are going for a more light, flat, sleek look. Not flashy though, just on the soft side. Marble-y cream floor tile, subtle off-white countertop to pick it up, slab matte white cabinets, likely another shade of off white for the walls. All appliances classic stainless steel. So I wonder if the hood might not stand out too much considering it would match everything closely - but might just add a little pop to the otherwise smooth space. What do you think though? We just don't want to do a downdraft really due to cost, it doesn't work quite as well and ours will be a gas cooktop. Will run some electric in island too though. As for the layout - we had another idea. Leah, thanks for the suggestion, something similar did come up before actually but we preferred the L for that little bit more kitchenstuff crammed in. By bringing part of that wall in those two feet, we can make a square walk in pantry flush with the cabinets/counter, tons of space inside. That leaves that nice alcove at the end of the foyer, actually just like our old design had. We really liked that a lot and prefer it immensely to just flat wall across there. The main difference here would be just the island, and the cooktop brought up to it from the original opposite wall. This way gives up seating along the island; but there is already space for seating at that pass through window at the sink (albeit patio), the bit of bartop at the corner overlooking the family room, the informal dining room at the open end, family room past that, and formal dining room right of the kitchen through that door. I personally feel the space smack dab in the middle is best used for working, with all the seating everywhere else around it. That and all the consensus on seating around a gas cooktop. The island in this one would be 3ft deep (maybe an inch or so more with overhang) and I think it's about 10ft long. I think it would be fit in with the overall layout, with the same stretch of counter on either side of it basically, sort of a consistently long design. What are your thoughts on those dimensions? Without seating, is 3ft deep enough behind the cooktop? That's like another foot to spare right? Something like this maybe: Note those bar segments on either side, ours is similar but shorter, flush with straight counter. And an example of similar overall dimensions, 10x3: If we aren't sitting at the island now, should we keep the overhang on that side at the open end? Or just widen the cabinets under it to fill it in? Would you leave that little bit there to pull up one chair? Or do you mind pulling up a stool or some such while cooking? Or would you sit at the barheight or table and look in? For that barheight bit at the family room corner - there's a header running right over it, continuing from the kitchen wall with the window straight across. We are thinking about doing a little overhang up into the family room just because it's easy to do and we could keep a little stuff there like flowers or pizza. Would you do overhang on both sides though, up and left? Or would that look awkward because the seats are on either side of the header? Sloping ceiling in family room. We probably wouldn't sit there too much anyway, just wondering. May not at all with only the one side overhung. Would have to walk around it coming up from the hall but plenty of space to do so. Would we still keep the fridge at the end of the island in this layout, oven next to the pantry? Based on that fridge sees more frequent use? Big question though: should cooktop be center or off-center? If off-center, I think that's a bit more convenient prep space on that side opposite the sink; but if centered, a couple steps less around to pantry and oven. Will likely keep an appliance or two on the wall behind it, so that eats up that prep space a bit, hence I might be tempted to haul stuff past it if off-center then back to the cooktop. I feel like that whole aisle will be used a lot, except the part overlooking the family room. On that note, would you prefer just straight wall and cabinet there as opposed to the little cutout? It would be a little more convenient then to keep another countertop appliance at without it peeking over. It does really open up the space a lot more though I think. I'm torn - what are your guys' thoughts? Also, should the door to the pantry be center or off-center? If off-center, it becomes centered in the aisle, so that's convenient. If centered in the pantry though, we can do a much better U shape shelf layout, more spacious interior than running it around up to the door. Is it worth that sort of sidestep to and from though? Would that bother you? How would you do it? Door to dining room is a pocket door (36in) so minimal door to door collisions expected. What kind of door would you do to the pantry too? We got a vote before for a double door. What width? Should we shorten the island a bit, to make more room between the end and the fridge? Fridge will be recessed so saves a few inches but that aisle is 4ft. Would you prefer a wider aisle there? Will we be bumping the counter opening that freezer drawer? French door. And last but not least, the other big big question - with this layout with the nice foyer alcove, that pantry makes a big old bumpout into our living room. It's not a functional issue; the living room is large and that's all just walkway along that side anyway, but would that bother you visually? If so, how could we rectify it? Dining room past it, with that bumpout, is effectively set in 2ft, with 3ft walls coming in each side making a nice natural arch with the header; could hang a picture or something on each side, I think would look fine. But there's still that bulge between these dining room and foyer dugouts. Would furnishing and decor obscure it? A little or very adequately? Should we pull the dining room walls forward that extra bit to make it flush? We have a big wall mirror in the dining room we really like, how would we work that in? It's a bit intricate so I think we'd have to replace it to get it that rest of the way, not sure if that's in the cards though. Sorry for the novella! We have to finalize our decisions soon, tomorrow ideally. Thanks again for all your help guys, you have been invaluable.

Welcome to the Kitchens Forum! We would like to help, but we need more information, which can be found in the "New to Kitchens? Read Me First!" thread. Here's an excerpt from the Featured Answer in Read Me thread that contains most of the info we need: You've provided a sketch of the entire floor the Kitchen in your original post, so what we need now is the fully-measured layout described below. Please post a fully-measured layout of the space under consideration and a sketch of the entire floor. Both can be either hand-drawn, computer generated, or drawn up with computer/app tools. By "fully-measured", we mean a layout with the widths of each wall/window/door/doorway and the distances between each wall/window/door/doorway labeled. See a sample below. If something cannot be moved or changed, label it precisely on your layout (see post in sample) and tell us why it cannot be moved/changed -- we may have some ideas for you. The sketch of the entire floor lets us see how the Kitchen relates to the rest of the home. It doesn't have to be to-scale, but it should accurately show how the rooms relate to each other and should include all interior & exterior doors. In addition, it will help us see how traffic flows in, around, and through the Kitchen. Label the front entry and family entry. The family entry is usually a garage or side entry, but it might not be. It's helpful to know which door you use to bring in groceries. Regardless of how you draw it up (by hand, computer, etc.), please be sure all measurements are labeled. (Note: Computer generated layouts often lack key measurements and, sometimes, measure to/from things like the middle of a wall or the middle of a window. Neither are useful. Measure each item and the distances between each item.) Other questions... Tell us about you and your family and how you plan to use your Kitchen. All-adults? Empty Nesters? Children (now or in the future)? What appliances (& their sizes) do you plan to have? Where are you flexible? Can walls/windows/doors/doorways change (move, change size, add, delete)? Do you have a basement under the Kitchen or are you on a slab?