Where is your pull-out trash? Why can you not prep on the counter above the DW?

Your layout doesn't work for either prep or cleanup. It doesn't have enough clearance to either side of the sink. Perhaps a prep sink somewhere could alleviate some of the issues of crossover, but right now, you need at least 18" (add 3")to the left of the sink to even meet minimum needed cleanup space without factoring in the prep. If you want to be able to prep and do cleanup to the left of the sink, then you need 36" of space there while having at least 18" to the right of the sink.

Oops. Did I miss that? Is that your only sink?

NewSouthernBelle, I'm including the link you had about your layout. Though you have a specific question I think that having the "entire picture" is more helpful for those trying to answer your question.

Here is a link that might be useful: NewSouthernBelle's Layout

Blfenton - yes I can prep over the DW. I guess I was just thinking I wouldn't really need to. Obviously when making really big meals, yes that area would need to be prep too but currently all my prep is done in 24''. Trash is just behind the island on the left side of the cooktop (not seen in this image). It was in the island but I opted for more drawers to store things I need to preparing lunches daily. Yes, that is my only sink.

Live Wire Oak (and I started to respond on the other thread and will go back threre shortly) Prep won't ever happen on the left side of the sink. Did you mean right side? If you meant right side I have 66'' on that side, which certainly accomdates 36'' for prep and 'leaves' 30'' for clean up, even though DH is almost never cleaning up while I am prepping. I do see how it would be beneficial to have more space on the left side BUT, the island is already approaching 10 feet long! I don't want a seam in my granite so I need to keep it under that and as it is, it is huge.

I'd make the 24" drawers into 36" instead (with 2- 18" shallow drawers on the top). Take out the 15" drawers to the right of the dw and make the drawer stack to the left of the sink be 18" (if you don't use it for trash - see next paragraph).

If you don't have a trash pullout by the sink, I strongly suggest a freestanding garbage can that can sit at the left end of the island (or the right if need be). You need a garbage near a clean up sink and near the dw. That would be vital.

If need be, I'd go with a 30" sink cab in order to give more to the others.

The plan as shown needs tweaking on the island IMHO.

I'd put the sink, where you won't be bumping into someone working at the range. You won't be unloading the dishwasher for that many minutes, but it may make prep more difficult, if they're directly across from each other.

If that's not a problem, I like the sink on the left, because it gives you a lot of prep room on the right side...close to your range and fridge. It also has the most distance on that end, from the stools. Just my two cents :)

Am I misunderstanding or is the cooktop not under the MW on the counter run to the left? If so, then perhaps keep the cleanup to this side of the island and put a prep sink on the run facing the cooktop. Nothing says you can have only one sink in an island.

The NKBA guidelines say that for a cleanup sink, you need at least 18" of clear space on one side and 24" on the other. Make that 15" drawer stack an 18" double trash pullout, and you've got that covered if you don't want to change anything else. (But the prep area is to the other side of the sink, away from the cooktop?) When you have a single sink that does both prep and cleanup, one side of that sink should have at least 36" of uninterrupted space. Your DW is in that space if you want to prep to the right of the sink. What would work better is to put the DW on the end, then the sink, then the trash pullout and then combine some of those drawer stacks. Having dish storage within your prep zone isn't ideal either. You seem to have the room for creating a kitchen for multiple users, but your design is working cross purposes to that. Working at this island will be difficult for one person, but a disaster if more than one will be involved.

Do you have a better floor plan with the measurements of the space as a whole?

Diannalo - I like your idea of one big 36" and then four 18" drawers on top. That could work for my storage needs. I'm not sure I need a drawer as large as 36" for my dishes though. I'll have to give that some thought. It's a great idea.

Lavender - There is plenty of space between the cooktop and the island so that even if someone is in both places, they will not be butt bumping. In fact, I moved the DW down right toward the cooktop so that when the DW was open, you'd still have about 2+ feet to pass behind it, whereas on the left of the sink, you'd only have about a foot.

Green Designs - Correct, the cooktop is not under the MW. the cooktop is on "behind" the island - on the opposite wall of the direction the 3D rendering is facing. Here is an overview of the whole kitchen.

And here are dimensions but this is one draft back so the cabinetry placement might be ever-so-slightly different - like the thrash and the pullout on the two sides of the cooktop are switched. Trash on left, directly across from the prep area. And there is another trash near the sink but to the left of the island.

I've thought about where and how I could add a prep sink but if I do, I lose storage in the island which is my best storage area and then I have even less space to have the minimum requirements for prep and clean up counter top space. As it is now, if the 24'' of the DW is dedicated to clean up, then I still have 33" for prep. That is enough space for me and only 3'' shy of the NKBA guideline. However, *rarely* is true clean up happeing while I am prepping. I also don't want a seam in the island so I can't make it any bigger, nor would I want to b/c it is already huge (and yet I can't fit everything I want to in there... like a trash pullout).

If you went with a 30" sink, that would give you more prep space and better storage below. That 3" shy would not be a problem any more. How wide is your current sink? Does it bother you? I know many here think a huge sink is a must, but for me it is not such a high priority. We use the dw for dishes and I wash a pot or 2 in the sink every night. No big need for more size and our sink bowl is well under 30".
It also helps that I use a wide sheet of foil on the cookie sheets so rarely need to scrub them. I just wash the lower half and then flip it over and repeat. Not having the entire sheet in the sink at one time is really no tragedy.

Diannalo - Yes, I might have to downgrade my sink but my current sink is 32" and I love it. The one I am looking at is a Blanco Silgranit and it is 32" also so the sink base cabinet is 33". I'll see what else Blanco has but I did a spreadsheet comparing all the dimensions of my current sink with ones I was considering to make sure I wasn't giving anything up. I have seen some really large slabs of the granite I want so maybe I can do just over 10'.

I thought someone asked about type of cabinet but I guess that was on my other thread. Anyway I am doing full overlay on frameless (I believe). Although one of the places I am getting a quote from is Bertch and I just read they are framed. With them, I know I will lose 2 & 1/16th inch on each drawer.

Well, if you have something you love and really want to duplicate--lucky you.

Just personal, Belle, and of course to irritate, I think I'd want the DW to the LEFT of the sink. :) I know it's not what you asked, but I'd want to designate that entire side for the cleanup mess, dedicate the other side to prep only. That way I'd also never need to prep in front of a steamy DW. For me, standing at the DW unloading to drawers to the right would work fine. This whole job takes, what, 2 minutes max on a timer? BTW, that pantry wall is very close behind in this position and would be very handy for some nonserving items.

If choosing among your two questioned positions, though, DW right next to sink. For all the reasons above.

You don't have enough space on the left side of the sink. I would move switch the 15" drawer stack on the left with the DW, then then have an 18" trash pullout + 15" + 24".

Unless you move your main sink off the island, I don't think you gain anything with a prep sink b/c there's really no useful place for it.

As to sink width...I have a 2-bowl (70/30) sink with the larger bowl 21.5" wide and I find it wide enough for all my cookie sheets, all my pots & pans (including handles), all my casserole dishes, my Venta-A-Hood squirrel cage, and all but one of my refrigerator bins & shelves. (The 36" or so deli-bin & shelf above are the only two things that do not fit flat in my sink.) So, if you have a 30" wide sink, I think you'll be fine. However, I don't really see a need to downsize your sink base.

"...66'' on that side, which certainly accomdates 36'' for prep and 'leaves' 30'' for clean up..."

No, it won't work that way. You will have dirty dishes in the way of prepping and in the way of trying to use the sink while prepping. Additionally, dirty dishes will spread into your "prep zone" so you don't really have two workable zones.

You need to separate the Cleanup Zone from the Prep Zone. In your case, the best way to do it is to have the sink b/w them. So... 24" DW on left + sink --> Cleanup Zone --> 26" or so of workspace on the left side of the sink
sink + 18" trash pullout + 39" --> Prep Zone --> 59" or so of workspace on the right side of the sink

If you want more space on the left, you could do...
12" cutting board/tray storage + 24" DW + sink --> Cleanup Zone --> 38" or so on the left side of the sink
sink + 18" trash pullout + 27" drawer base --> Prep Zone --> 47" or so on the right side of the sink

Either scenario gives you enough prep & cleanup space.

BTW...a 3" pullout, even a filler pullout, is really only "good" if you're using it as "filler" where you cannot fit another cabinet or merge the space into another cabinet. A much better use of space is to merge that 3" pullout with adjoining cabinets (like I merged it with a 15" cabinet to make an 18" trash pullout).

I also second Rosie's comment about working over a "steaming DW". I would not want a DW in the middle of my Prep Zone b/c (1) I wouldn't want to prep over a running DW, (2) I wouldn't want to have to dodge a sometimes open DW, (3) I wouldn't want to compete for space above the DW b/c that space is both Cleanup & Prep Zone space. In our home, loading or unloading the DW is often being done while prepping is going on.

BTW...the layout you show for your island isn't quite 10'...it's shy by 3". Does that mean the aisle b/w your island and table is really 43"? I hope so b/c that aisle is pretty narrow given you have seating on it (table seating).

Island layout shown in your first post: 1.5" overhang + 15" + 33" + 24" DW + 15" + 3" + 24" + 1.5" overhang = 117"

Buehl - Thanks for responding.

So I finally get what you (and GreenDesigns) mean about the clean up and prep area - that one will spill over into the other. And I can see that happening. In my current kitchen, clean up is on the left of the sink and prep on the right and the sink does act as a naturally barrier. I should plan accordingly for the new kitchen. The part that baffles me though is if I move the DW to the left, then I am putting DH between me and unloading the dishes where they go. Prep and dishwasher unloading is *never* done at the same time in my house b/c I do both. (However, perhaps when my kids are older...) All that to say, I am contemplating making bigger changes to address this and some other issues. Stay tuned for yet another post with an updated layout. If I stick with this layout in general, I will do at least 18'' on the left.

Just for clarification:
I currently have a 32'' two bowl 60/40 sink and will either have this again or a 70/30.

The 3" wasn't going to be a pullout, just a hinged filler piece with two shelves. I want to store my cutting boards vertically and ideally not low to the ground b/c I use them so often all day long (making snacks for the kids).

Yes, the island is currently measuring 117'' which is I said "approaching 10' long". I saw slabs I liked today that were 131'' long though so I can go to 10' or a few inches more without worry about finding a slab I like.

The aisle between the island and table is currently 48''. (It's hard to read on the image) And 45'' on the other side btwn the island and the oven/baking area.

Rosie - good point about working in front of hot dishwasher. That would be awful.

If you swapped the oven and the refrigerator, that would make that whole bank of cabinets the snack zone with the MW right there. And if you shifted a large single sink with a DW and pull out trash to the short side of the island, you could store your dishes in the cabinets behind in the upper cabinets in the snack zone, which would work better for the flow. Then a smaller prep sink could face the cooktop, the island could shrink and you'd have more clearance at that corner. Swap the seating and dining areas, and the dishes are close to the eating spot, and that space is larger anyway.

The only thing I'm not really feeling is the mud room lockers. I think they'd be better suited to the garage interior rather than the home interior.

GreenDesigns - The downfall of your idea is that it puts the prep area far away from the frig and it puts the frig and clean up area in an aisle. That and I know I want the sitting room in the area with the bay windows and the new dining area in the new space. (Putting a couch again a wall of windows defeats the purpose and there isn't really another way to layout the new area to be a sitting room. I also want the island facing the sitting area.)

The mudroom lockers will be nice cabinetry not actual lockers. They will have doors on them so you won't see all the coats/backpacks/mess. No, it is not the best location athestically but functionally, the location can't be beat. We park two cars in the garage and store stuff there so it doesn't have the space for a mudroom setup.

My latest idea is moving the frig to the corner, on the other side of the cooktop. Then it will closer to the MW (which I am moving to the e and k cabinets). I'll switch my prep area to the left side of the island and the DW and clean up area will be on the right. The two zones will be seperated by the sink with 48'' on the clean up side and 36'' on the prep side, plus the depth of the island. The DW will still be near where the dishes and silverware will be stored and close to the table. The drawback is going to be a longer distance btwn my prep area and the cooktop. I will post this new design once I figure out some more of the details and my KD re-does the drawings.

If you entertain often, and that's a priority, then I don't get why you want the larger space for the sofa rather than the table. I can see a lovely banquette in the bay window with a table there that can add leaves to accommodate more people when you have guests. I can't see the current small space you have the table stuck in working very well for entertaining at all. The clearances are much too tight. It could work for a single sofa and chair though. A wall of windows need not be down to the floor to let in light. How much light they let in has more to do with how high they are on the wall rather than how low down they go. My neighbor is reconfiguring her sunroom into living space, and although she used smaller windows, she put them higher up than the old ones, and it actually lets in more light. Then she put in banquette seating/window seating under all of the windows. It's a lot more functional than it was, and because of the new (expensive!) triple glazed windows, you can actually USE the space rather than roast in it.

Also, 200" x 289" is a large enough space for a wonderful kitchen without so many compromises. Have you thought about putting the whole kitchen in the screen area rather than just the dining space?

I would think twice about moving the refrigerator and about switching the Prep & Cleanup Zones.

Right now, the Prep Zone is in the perfect location on the island (on the right) relative to the range & Cooking Zone. The Prep Zone is situated so it's near the Cooking Zone and there will be no zone-crossing to go b/w them, including no open DW in the way.

This also means that the Cleanup Zone is not interfering with the Prep and Cooking Zones and is adequately separated from both.

The refrigerator is also perfectly located relative to not only the Prep & Cooking Zones, but also your table space. Additionally, it's on the perimeter right now so someone looking for a snack will be able to get to it without interfering/getting underfoot of someone working in the kitchen.

Moving the refrigerator to the corner (1) means you will probably need some filler to ensure it will open fully (and taking away some valuable inches from the Cooking Zone) and (2) it will force everyone to go through the middle of the working part of the kitchen to get to the refrigerator.

Current (and better, IMHO) Layout:

...

Your proposed changes:

Buehl - My thoughts exactly... BUT only after having studied it A-L-L day after making the KD re-do it. I came up with 5 options and wrote pros and cons for all of them. Yes, I think you are right, the fridge should stay where it is and I am just going to have to give on something. I think the compromise will be having the DW away from the dish drawer or having both of them away from the table. My MIL doesn't think this is a big deal at all. Perhaps it is not. Thanks for mocking up my layout with the different zones and traffic patterns. Now I just have to decide on the island configuration going from left to right:

Option #2 - The Total Switch
24" Dish Drawer
24" DW
33" Sink
18" Trash pullout
3" cutting boards
15"drawer 4-stack

Option #3 - The Partial Switch "A"
18" Trash pullout
24" DW
33" Sink
15" drawer 4-stack
3" cutting boards
24" Dish Drawer

Option #4 - The Partial Switch "B"
21" Trash pullout (bigger than just 18" for more counter top space - island grows 3" though)
33" Sink
24" DW
15" drawer 4-stack
3" cutting boards
24" Dish Drawer

I think #4 is my favorite - even though it puts the DW technically in the Prep Area. I believe we would stack dishes on the left of the sink though (in part b/c that is what we are already used to now - habits, you know) and then it would make unloading So.Much.Easier - IMHO anyway and since I am the one who unloads, my opinion matters.

This is exhausting and we haven't even started demo - aaagh. Thanks for the support.

My preference would be Option #5:
15" drawer 4-stack
24" DW
33" Sink
24" Dish Drawer
18" Trash pullout
3" cutting boards

Giving you:
1.5" + 15" + 24" = 40.5" of workspace in the Cleanup Zone
24" + 18" + 3" + 1.5" = 46.5" of workspace in the Prep Zone

For me, I'd rather have the extra space in the Prep Zone. More work goes on there (and for a far, far longer period of time) than in the Cleanup Zone. [I have approx 42" in mine and it's just about right...I wouldn't want anything less, but a few more inches would be nice.]

The only reason I would put the 15" drawer stack on the left is to give you a bit more Cleanup Zone workspace.

This not only keeps the Prep Zone in the best location and minimizes outside traffic through the primary work zones...plus...it also puts your DW near your dish drawer for unloading the DW and not too far from the current table space...the best of both worlds!

The 15" drawer is going to house my prep knives, and baggies for lunches so that is why I have been putting it on the prep side.

When I posted last night, I came to the realization at this point, it is just a matter of me figuring out what is going to work best for how we live and work in the kitchen. The trash in my current kitchen is about 8' from my prep area and I'm so used to it, it doesn't bother me. Thanks for giving me your suggestion.

You're right...do what will work best for you and your family...but, not just now...your children are young right now. That will not last long. Very, very quickly they will be helping you in the kitchen...first, learning how to cleanup and cook and later working on their own. Those years will last the longest...probably 10 to 12 years or so for each child (longer if they live at home while going to college OR return to the nest following college).

Plan for the long-term, not the short-term. You will not be the only person working in the kitchen for the next decade or more...you will have "helpers". (This is assuming, of course, that you will be teaching your children how to help/work in the kitchen...a very necessary life skill, IMHO.)

Just something to think about...

Good luck!