What's on the top right? Is that an outside wall? It makes your kitchen jut in weird. If it were me, I'd try to get rid of that ackward space by switching it with the bathroom and adding a walk in pantry to something. It's hard to give you much advice without seeing the whole thing in a bigger context. How do these rooms connect with the other rooms in your home? Where is the family room? The outside, etc? Also the image title references a pantry - where is the pantry?

One thing I noticed initially, if you moved the cabinetry on the top to the wall on the right, you'd create more of a galley kitchen and could have a second person working on that countertop space. It also gets rid of a corner cabinet which always seem to waste space, even with fancy lazy susans or whatnots. I don't know what #3 is though.

Is that a sink next to the cooktop in the island? I don't think it would be useful there and just plain counter top next to the cooktop is so valuable.

Yeah, give us some more information. And here is the Layout Help Section from the "New to Kitchens" thread that will help you know what info the collective "we" want.

Layout Help
Posted by buehl (My Page) on Thu, Aug 4, 11 at 14:26

What information we need and how to draw up and label a floor plan.
http://ths.gardenweb.com/forums/load/kitchbath/msg010521247761.html

What are zones and how do you design with them in mind?

http://ths.gardenweb.com/forums/load/kitchbath/msg0508230128712.html

A piece of advice: When you post a layout for comments, please do not take the comments you receive personally. Everyone here is trying to help, not criticize maliciously. We want you to have a kitchen that, in the end, functions wonderfully well and looks nice overall. This may mean that some of us may tear apart your layout and rebuild it to what we think will work better, but it's done with good intentions. We're not the best at just "validating" someones layout, we're best at critiquing!

I will warn you that most of us here are "function over form" (or "function first")...meaning we strive first for a functional layout and then fit the form or look around it. It is far easier to make a functional kitchen look nice than it is to make a nice looking but dysfunctional kitchen functional. So, if you are a form/looks over function person, be sure to state that when you post.

Some people here think "function over form" means that we want all kitchens to look the same....not true! What we do want is all kitchens to function well...which means that in 99% of the cases, the workflow is the same...so that will mean some similarities due to workflow. However, as each kitchen is unique, each will have its own unique quirks, etc.

In the end, remember this is your kitchen. You don't have to make any of the recommended changes if you don't want to!

[Note: If you're just posting for validation of your layout (i.e., you don't want comments that suggest changes), state that as well. If you don't, people will comment on it!

Warning: People may comment anyway, it's tough to let a kitchen go that you think is dysfunctional and will cause angst later...especially if it's not yet installed and we think we can help. Bear with us, we're just trying to help!]

I'm having a hard time making heads or tails out of your plan. It looks like you have shallow cabs and counters on the top wall, turn the corner, fridge, narrow cab, sink, narrow cab, corner Susan, narrow cab, DW. Is that a cook-top with prep sink on the island? Or is that a range? That island placement seems quite odd to me with a pinch point between the bottom end and the bathroom wall. And what is that on the right side of the island? Are those supposed to be stools at the counter? That island can't possibly be long enough to accommodate 3 seats along the long side and one along the top.

This space could be made to work so much better but it's so hard to tell from this small image.

Am I reading these dimensions correctly?
Top wall: 109-3/4"
Left wall: 187-7/8"
Bottom wall: 80-3/16"

Are there windows or doors on any of these walls? If so, how far are they from corners and how wide are they (molding included)?

What size and type of appliances do you want? Standard depth or counter depth fridge? How wide? Separate cook top and wall ovens or range? How wide? How many in your family? How many cooks does this kitchen need to accommodate? Do you want island seating?

What is planned for the space to the right of the island? Kitchen table and chairs?

I missed your other thread, best to go read it, maybe you already answered all these questions there. Yep, I see answers to two of my questions there.

Here is a link that might be useful: White Kitchen Which Blue Paint for walls?

Do you need both the sliders and the door? I'd think the best way to tackle this space might be to close up the one door, so that you could make that space more of a contained galley instead of the weird island situation. There is less than 30" between the island and the ovens(?), whatever 17 is. That island has a cooktop and sink and very little space for prep. Everyone coming from the hall will be trying to squeeze past the cook in that 29" space.

I hate to be harsh, but if I were looking at that house for purchase, I would automatically reduce the price of any offer by at least $30k for a new kitchen.

So here is the new attempt at a layout.

The layout we posted above - was our attempt at using the IKEA Kitchen planner. The placement of the island and other cabinets etc is not set in stone. It was our first attempt at design -

From top left corner going clockwise.

this shaded section is the addition we just put on to increase the size of our kitchen. It is approx 9' wide by 6.5' long. In the middle of the 9' wall there is a 2'by 2' awning window installed 50" above the floor. Our plan is to fill this wall with cabinets and maybe a seated desk or some countertop under the window with cabinets above.

Moving to the right the door is 30" wide and swings in. That door opens onto our covered deck. The tiny bump on the deck (looks like a rectangle) next to the door is the chimney.To the right of that is a new sliding patio door which is 8'W by 6'8" high. Then there is 3.5' of wall and angling out from that wall is the first of 3 windows on the far right wall. Just past of the third window - most southern window -is a built in hutch. not big but enough to store a few things.

continuing clockwise past the hutch is a set of Pocket Doors leading into the Living Room. Just past the pocket doors is a small bumpout wall. We are planning on putting our "real" hutch in this spot between the left most pocket door and the bumpout wall

Moving again clockwise is the hallway which leads to/from the front foyer. Just past the the hallway is the bathroom and south of that the stairs to the basement.

Just north of the bathroom on the left-hand (West) wall is a window which was above the sink in the former layout. I would like to keep the main sink centered under this window.

The walls in the right hand section - 'DR' are 9'6" as are the walls in the left hand section "kitchen". There is now a beam - marked by XXXX in the layout where there used to be a wall separating the kitchen and dining spaces. We knocked down the wall and added the addition on the back to "open up" and add more storage.

The ceiling height where the beam is located is 8' 4".

The ceiling height in the addition is approx. 9' 2"

We're looking at keeping the table in the 'dining' area with a banquette made of cabinets along the windows a chair on either side and 3 chairs on the side closest to the "kitchen"

We're imagining an island somewhere with a cooktop - 30-36" Ideally 5 burners or 4 with a center griddle/grill

1 wall oven - Really like the 30" Electrolux Convection
Keeping current Microwave
Purchased a Kohler Cast Iron Cobalt Blue sink for a prep sink
Keeping 30"x30" Stainless fridge but would eventually like to purchase a counter depth or cabinet depth one

Love pull out pantry ideas for the top area on the layout -which we call the addition. - We have a lot of pots, pans, kitchen gadgets that we'd love to have space to store.

We are a 2 Adult 2 kid 2 dog family - ages 5 & 7(kids) - Envision spending most mornings, nights and weekends in this space so it has to work well. FUNCTION over FORM please ;) We are laid-back prefer comfort to high end and like a good salvage deal - This may not be our FOREVER kitchen but we'll be here for 12 more years until the 5 yr old graduates.

2 cooks - at least 1 Head and one prep chef ;) Love baking so need space on countertop to roll out dough and storage for kitchenaid mixer, muffin tins, cookie sheets, cake plates etc.

No need for formal dining room which is why we are trying to get an open kitchen/dining area. We will LIVE in this space. It's all right off of the living room.

Bathroom in layout MUST stay.

Coffee Center - would be nice
Pet Feeding Station and Pet Food Storage
Recycle and Trash bins

Dcsullivans - you have a bit of a challenging space to work with (as do I). So if I am reading it correctly, the kitchen space is a little over 18'' long and 9'' wide...

Is there any door from the DR area to the deck? Could you put one next to the sliding window? That would give another wall for cabinetry in the kitchen and a desk plus something else would work in that area well... I don't know. There are so many directions you could go. This might sound silly but calling the DR the "breakfast room" might allow people to think of it more in the terms that you plan to use it. What the distant between the ceiling beam (where the wall used to be) and the bay windows?

I've been playing with ideas for your kitchen and let me just say, it's a tough lay-out, especially with the door in the bump-out only 18" in from the top wall. That severely limits what you can do in that space. Since you also have a slider just around the corner, does that door need to stay?

Can the oven be installed under a counter or are you wanting an oven/MW tower?

Are you wanting island/peninsula seating for 4? I figured out that's what those weird bumps were on the island you drew. I've drawn up 2 plans and I can only come up with room for 3 seats. There's not a lot of wiggle room to work with in your kitchen so it's hard to find the required 24" of width and 15" counter overhang each for 4 people. Two people can not occupy the same space at a corner, as you've drawn on your plan.

What width fridge do you plan to get? 36" CD? What width oven?

Are you going with Ikea cabinets? In other words, do you need a plan that works with stock sized cabs? Last I checked Ikea only makes 12" deep and 24" cabs, nothing in between. Is that still correct?

What size cabinet does your Kohler blue prep sink require?

As for island with cook top, I can not find a way to put an island in, much less one that is large enough for a cook top. You need at a minimum 12" on one side, 15" on the other and ... 9", I think, behind it (without seating). That's a 66" long island (add in 3" for 1.5 counter overhang at each end) and 36" wide (ditto about the counter overhang). If there's a way to do that, I haven't found it yet.

I can put a cook top in a peninsula but that's the best I can do. I'm not against cook top in peninsulas or islands (many here are) but I do want you to know that island/peninsula venting is a good deal more expensive than perimeter venting (I've priced both). You'll need to factor that into your costs.

Here are the dimensions added for the width of the space.

The entire space is to be used as kitchen/ dining - we don't need formal dining so we do need a table in here somewhere.

The 30" door has to stay - it is recently installed and we like having two exits to the back deck.

The Slider is an 8 foot wide by 6 1/2 foot tall sliding patio door. The 5 feet to the left and 3 1/2 feet to the right are open wall space.

NewSouthernBelle there is 16' between the beam and the windows to the right on the plan. There is 10'6" to the left of the beam.

As for island seating we'd like to get 4 seats in there but whatever works best is fine.

We had thought starting the island at the space where the XXXXX ceiling beam is and going 66" into the open space and 70" wide would give us enough space to walk around the island - I think it's 36" + on all sides at a minimum

The Kohler sink is 16"W x 19" Deep/Long
Right now our fridge is 30"x30" but yes eventually 36" W counterdepth

Looking for Wall Oven/MW Tower

Cabinets are anything goes-well sorta- we have Decora now and if we could match the style (not color) we might go with them - IKEA is an option because we like the look and $$

Keep 'em coming ..

Thanks!

Not knowing enough about this to really have an answer, but I'd do something like this.

Moves the ref and dishes to an area accessible even when someone is cooking. If I could, I'd put the micro in the pseudo island. Because its a little hinky with that 30" door and I'd be likely to have a second "chef", I'd leave around 4.5 feet in front of the ref and 4.5 to 5 feet between the main counter run and the peninsula to make up for the fact that that it wasn't an island.

The dw placement is a choice depending on whether you guys spilt the work and have one person doing dishes whilst another cooks. If you do that, then placement on the ref wall is better.

If you want a prep sink, I'd put it pretty close to the back door and the range, but on the peninsula side.

I'm going with peninsula for a couple of reasons. I don't think you have quite enough room for an island. The island you tried would be a nightmare for me - not enough room to prep and too close to the other cabinets. I like the cooking surface to be really close to prep, but I'm a little klutzy.

Your home looks like a wonderful place for living, DC. I agree with Bmore that that space doesn't lend itself to an island, though, especially one that would detract from what must be a very attractive and functional dining space. Now, if you actually have a good dining area you prefer to use elsewhere and want to use that end as a sitting/sun room...?

As it is, your generous but oblong area does lend itself very nicely to an L and peninsula as drawn. This works well and retains the door to the deck. You could even deepen the "peninsula" into the kitchen area a bit for more space and easier less trotting between counters if you wished, and conceivably even put an additional stool or stools down by that door if people stroll in that way a lot.

It would also make a truly excellent galley variation, a configuration that can't be beat for function, would allow a longer peninsula, and get rid of corner cabinets. It would also potentially allow pulling part of the counter back to get it out of the dining room. That's a nice area, but 16 feet is good but none too long. Your large island doesn't suggest this is the way you want to go, though.

The plan you are playing with could also be quite good with the peninsula but maybe shallow floor-to-ceiling pantry across the far end? I can't see what's there, but that's what I have and it's great. Or maybe removing the door outside to allow a full counter/pullout pantry.

BTW, your foyer has a view into this area, so don't forget to keep that in mind as you check your 3D views. Have fun. :)

Extending bmorepanic and rosie's ideas, I suggest drawing a galley with a peninsula as large as possible. Try 55" by 100". That is one entire slab. (It's cheaper by the slab, since there is no waste.) Remove a portion of the slab area for the fridge to back into it. Cover the fridge back, so that facing the DR are bookshelves or an art wall. Raro has this, in an unusual space.

Your aisle can be 42", 45" or 48". It's a straight shot so it is OK at any size. If it were curved it would have to be wider.

The run of cabinets along the long wall can be larger (deeper) than average.

The peninsula could have two levels (to a small extent) in order to have a place for the electricity, and to have a landing pad. For the most part it would be one big slab.

I'm not 100% sure I get what davidro1 is suggesting but how I thought about it would be to move the fridge to the wall by the 30" door to the deck, facing the range (as bmore has sketched it). Make the peninsula extend out further to the left - which might mean you could get three chairs facing the DW wall and maybe one on the side. Do a transitional angled shelf on the left where the fridge currently is. I think you could definietly do some creative things "behind" the fridge - tall bookcases or cubbies with storage baskets. It would be perfect for storing kids's crafts stuff and with 2 young ones you probably know all about that... I sure I do.

You're still not providing enough information to us. And some of what you're provided is inconsistent.

{{gwi:1951418}}

Please confirm the numbers I've written on the drawing and supply measurements for any lettered spans.

My big HUH? is because you wrote that the span from the longest wall to the beam is 10'6" (126"). However, that does not jive with the measurements you give for the top wall: each wall on either side of the 2' (24") window is marked as 3'6" (42"). Those measurements add up to 9' or 108". Either your walls are really cooked - that's off by 18" - or your measurements are inaccurate.

We need measurements for wall spans from corners to molding around doors and windows and width of doors and windows should include that molding.

We *don't" need the measurements for the chimney bump-out on the deck. That affects the exterior walls and has no bearing that I can discern on the kitchen plan.

Trying to come up with a functional plan without accurate information is very frustrating. We're glad to help but you have to do your part if you want useful suggestions from us.

ditto lisa_a

no point overthinking this until a few more facts have been created. In the Ikea drawing, the 108" span is 109 3/4". It's probably close to that. In another place it's 126". Oh well...

It may be clear to some, but I forgot to write out that the humungous slab I proposed was to have two runs of cabinets under it, back to back. One run of cabinets facing into the galley, and the other one facing the DR. NewSouthernBelle got it. She wrote that the peninsula would extend out further to the left. The idea is to galley-ize and have a huge island-like peninsula.

I picture the DW under the island-peninsula.

I noticed that, too, David.

There's another inconsistency. The long wall is shown on the last drawing as being 220" long (11'11" + 6'5" is 143" + 77" or 220") but on the Ikea plan, it is shown as being only 186-7/8" long (58-9/16" + 44" + 84-5/16"). That's a difference of 33-1/8". That's an oven cabinet. Or a sink cabinet. In other words, that discrepancy makes a big difference in a kitchen plan.

Soon as you get us the accurate measurements, dcsullivans, we'll give you options.

Give feedback on your thoughts and options, for sure. Maybe even get together with you and do a little box-breaking!

David's idea of backing the fridge to the DRM could be the jumpoff to a structural division of space that's as functional as it is pleasing aesthetically. Useful discussion, though, requires knowing how you really want your kitchen and cook(s) to relate to the rest of the room, including noncooks. Pushing an island way out there suggests you might want to be out in the middle of things. If so, any possibility of bringing that happening place to the kitchen instead? How do you guys use that space out there? How could you? You do have room for an excellent kitchen back there, without expanding. Can this remodel make it wonderful for you? Whatever you do, you should dance on seeing it now and still feel pleased 5 years from now, and it should be able to accommodate many changes in lifestyle and preferences, some of which you may not even be able to imagine now.

Thinking outboxedly now, consider this: you could have two islands and nothing else, no cabinets backed onto walls anywhere.

Island #1 would be centered where lisa_a drew 126" huh on her drawing. A very long rectangle.
Island #1 makes the new small window and door seem like they fit into the plan.

Island #2 would be parallel to it, so once again you get to have a galley.
Island #2 would be roughly where you drew the island in your Ikea drawing.
Island #2 would be more stretched out. Perhaps kidney shaped.

People would know that walking through the galley is to penetrate the inner circle where serious work is done. Many would walk around the long way.

With more wall space exposed, you get more art on the walls. A lighting consultant is a good person to hire.

The islands are so big they are more like continents.

Island #2 could be a peninsula; anchoring one continent to a wall means it's easier to have a place for the fridge to call home.

A galley with a "destination" at each end of the galley corridor is the absolute best layout. On top of that, you get to have dramatic lighting washing down the walls to highlight whatever you pin up or hang there. This idea makes your open space into a movie set, a laboratory, an operating room, and a hangout.

Sorry for the confusing plans before. Some dimensions were taken from blueprints, some were actual, and some were just wrong. (The IKEA numbers are just way off; we used that just for "high-level" planning purposes, not for actual placing of cabinets. You just can't turn off all the dimensions on their plan.)

My husband and I just re-measured everything, and it should be all annotated in this version. These don't include drywall, however, so that needs to be accounted for.

Thanks for all the comments so far. We really enjoy seeing what other folks think about this (100-year old) space.

100 years old!? I've been imagining a trim 70s ranch or some such thing. The slider and deck, I guess.

So, a double island art gallery, in line with windows. Could look fabulous, all right, but how about situating the second one perpendicular--in line with the window on the left wall and the bay on the right? A linear graphic to echo in other elements. Not sure where the fridge goes tho. Is there a vertical element to echo somewhere? :)

Seriously, if you do an island with a bunch of stools in the middle, do you really need a table in the bay in the same room? That's just such a lot of chairs, chair legs, things to move to clean up, and for all of it not that great for seating 16 for Thanksgiving. Is there a second dining area somewhere else?

We have 2, and it does work great. The "DRM" is a place in the center of our home that serves as library and crossroads from 4 doors and 2 staircases most of the time, but will seat 12 at the drop of a hat (actually unfolding of a drop-leaf table), and within sight in the living room is another drop-leaf table (normally closed when just the 2 of us dine) that will hold another 6-8. Good thing. A while ago one friend invited 2 girlfriends without bothering to tell us, and 3 people who weren't coming did. The rest of the time it's compact and cozy, though, just right for DH and me. Flexibility. Would the island you drew, etc., still allow that?

I get it that there is a beam where the X's are. It's 8'4" from the floor. I'm a bit surprised there is not a post at the end of the beam.

Is the shaded section (the addition) different, or is it the same as the kitchen? Is the floor made to look the same? The ceiling? Etc. I'm thinking the 11' and 6'2" would go together (= 17'2") is these two areas looked alike.

The idea from NewSouthernBelle bmorepanic and rosie can be contained inside a space defined as "under the beam."

We like the idea of two "continent" islands - an interesting idea. We'd have to see what we can fit in there, in terms of providing walkways and such.

There really isn't any other dining area other than what we have shown. The only other room on this floor is just past the pocket down (bottom of plan), and is the TV/living room. We don't need to be able to seat people at the island (necessarily), if it's easier to make it work without it. We're 4 people everyday, and only expand for additional people very infrequently.

We plan on moving the table into the open space for holidays and adding a temp table for additional seating if needed.

Would something like this curved island and seating work with the continent idea? Looks interesting

{{gwi:1951420}}

Source:

The placement of the new deck door and the windows in your space, plus its long, narrow-ish shape make your kitchen an interesting puzzle, especially given what you want. I think I got it all, save the desk. Few people put desks in kitchens these days. Do you really need one? Could you not put one elsewhere, out of the busy kitchen zone? Oh, I also didn't find room for the prep sink but I don't think you need one in this plan.

Anyhoo, how about this idea:

{{gwi:1951421}}

Blue letter legend
A is for appliance garage - mixer, etc.
B is for baking center. Not a large space but adequate and given the window right there, it would be a bright place to roll out dough.
(I swear I didn't plan out that the letter legend equaled what they stood for. That's just how it worked out, so to continue in this vein....)
C (the blue one) is for cabinetry, 18" deep, below the counter. Use this to store seldom used items such as holiday platters, etc.

Black letter legend:
O - oven/MW column
F - fridge
C - cook top
P - pantry cabs
T - trash pull-out

This plan gives you landing place for items coming from oven, fridge and pantries.

The fridge is easily accessible from new deck door or from the rest of the house *without* crossing into the cook zone, which is a good thing.

Your sink is under the large window (not quite centered but close).

There's a nice stretch of counter between sink and cook top for prep work.

And you get your cook top in a pseudo-island with 4 seats nearby with a nice buffer (the under-counter cabs) between diners and hot stuff on the cook top. I rounded the counter edge to reduce the lunch counter feel and to make conversation easier between the 1st and 4th diner. You could deepen the curve a bit more, just know that it makes accessing the cabs under the counter a bit less convenient. It's already hands and knees access so not sure a few more inches of counter overhang will make much difference.

The counter overhang should line up roughly with the edge of the ceiling beam, which is a nice visual from the front door. The peninsula counter ends a few inches before the slider begins, keeping that traffic area clear.

Traffic can move smoothly through this space, from deck door to kitchen to fridge to DR to slider without any major kitchen zones in the way - or at least in the way on the inside track of traffic. I know how kids cut corners when they are in a hurry. ;-) Bathroom to kitchen and foyer to kitchen traffic is slightly redirected because of the peninsula but I don't think that's a big deal. The generous aisles - 47" and 50" - will mean fewer chances of 2 adults, 2 kids and 2 dogs tripping over each other (or so we can hope).

Designate a 10' area on the right side of that large room for your dining table and chairs. You'll still have about 5' clearance between that area and the peninsula counter, which would help with traffic flow through the space - think LR to new slider. Plus, plenty of room to expand the table when you have company over.

Oh, one more thing. If the oven and or fridge cabs can be narrower than I show them on the drawing (30" ovens may fit into a 30" wide cabinet, depends on mfg and cabinet line), then you can increase the sink cab from 33" to 36".

oooh...I have been watching this thread, but didn't chime in because I was confused. Lisa- I love your plan! Its exactly what I was thinking. This kitchen really can't handle an island. I think the peninsula is the way to go and I think the sink under that window looks great!

We really like your plan. Thanks Lisa.

We're going to map it out on the floor tonight :)

You guys are all amazing. Thanks for being so patient and helping us -sorry we are making it frustrating for all. We are living in the demolition and are needing to get some closure. By the end of next week we'll be in drywall and will have to really finalize the design so we can order cabinets and appliances etc.

If anyone else has a different plan or variations we would love to see everything

Thanks again

You're welcome, dcsullivans.

You probably caught my goof already. I put an upper cabinet (marked in red) across the window at the narrow end of your kitchen. Obviously it should stop before the window. ;-)

Are you going with an island hood or a downdraft? If the latter, go for one that rises as high as possible so that it works as well as possible. Venting your peninsula cook top is not the place to cut corners. Also, you might be able to have the guts of it set into the 18" cabinets between cook top cab and peninsula overhang - you'll need to have the cabinet backs cut to accommodate it - which would mean you could use all or almost all of the cabinet under the cook top for pots and pans. If that won't work - compromises the cabinet strength too much - then see if you can get a 30" deep cabinet for the cook top cabinet. Down drafts eat up a good portion of the cabinet below the cook top (I have one).

Hopefully you'll get another plan or two to consider as well.

Lisa_a

Since we'll probably be in the market for an island hood or range hood any suggestions on where to loook?

Sorry, I don't have a clue where to start looking. I know the basics: go for an island hood with a larger capture area than you would for perimeter venting. What's recommended is to go with a hood as deep as or close to as deep as the cook top and 6" wider. As for CFM requirements, they are the same as for a perimeter vent. Oh, one other thing I know. They should be quieter, even on high, than a downdraft. Downdrafts are noisy (are they ever) and don't remove smoke and such nearly as well as a hood does.

Best to start another thread on this topic here or ask over in the appliances forum. Actually before you do that, do a search on "hoods" here and in the appliance forum. There are gobs of info. Good luck on your search!

Thanks ! I was just about to start a new thread and search but thought I should check here first. We really like your plan just curious to see if others have any other ideas.