How old is your mother?

If she's like me in her 60s, she can accept change. In her 70s, some change. In her 80s, don't rearrange anything essential--all significant actions must remain in same place because the habits of a lifetiime are now in her fingers so strongly that she's fixed in them.

Okay, I actually like the before, but I can see you need more storage and space.

Is there anyway that she would put the refrigerator where the stove is now? Would it fit in that space? If so, she could pretty easily move the stove (electric) to the left side of the sink. It could be sink, dishwasher to the left, then 24" cabinet, then stove, then another cabinet to the corner, by the window. This cabinet could be just a bit more shallow, so as not to block the window...maybe for dish display on top and storage below.

Also, is there anyway she might consider a banquette, where the refrigerator is now? I know it's kind of deep, but she could have a nice shelf behind the back of the banquette (even with the height of the back of the banquette) to fill in the space to the wall. Maybe tile the top and put some of her low light plants or display there. It would free up a few chairs and maybe make it easier to move around in the kitchen.

If the front of the banquette is even with the walls, there should be no problem in seating a few people and having the table and two more chairs...then add two more if necessary. An oval table would still look good, but there would be a lot more space in front of the sink and stove to work. It also puts the refrigerator on the end of the work area and easier to reach from the living room :)

In terms of electrical, my original kitchen was wired in 1965 so your mom's is contemporary. I had two circuits in the original kitchen, one of which also served other outlets. (When the lights went back to full brightness you knew the toast was done.)

I ended up with seven circuits in the new kitchen and probably could've done at least another: and my kitchen is tiny

2 for countertop outlets
1 for lighting
1 for DW
1 for range (gas)
1 for fridge
1 for disposer
and the vent hood is in there somewhere.

My initial thought without thinking anything else was to try banquette seating in the alcove with some deep storage under some flip up seats and maybe some shelving at the back just to get the table out of the way. This would put the chairs at the heads of the table in the way of the hallway and basement stairs when in use, but how often is the table at full capacity? Its worth exploring since the sink needs to stay ~where it is and the range really can't stay where it is nor go in the passthrough.

My mom is 75... She's active/flexible enough that she willingly learns new things on the computer, she's active in her church's Woman's Solidarity group and the local library's "Friends of the Library" group, and she can really get on my case about things :-). She does the PR and any computer work her volunteer groups need. (Almost forgot about the "Knitting Ministry"!)

See...already an idea I hadn't thought of, a banquette in the alcove! I'll have to pass that idea by her.

Thanks and keep the ideas coming!

Mine is not about the layout, but about her budget.
I recently "discovered" the Habitat for Humanity Restore and think she could save quite a bit of money there, while also doing good (win/win).
Nancy from GW put me on to Green Demolitions here in the northeast (PA, NJ & CT). They have some terrific complete and part kitchens, many with high end appliances. Some are new, some gently used and many as showroom set ups, I suspect. The prices are really fantastic, and I do mean really!
If you are not in this part of the country, you can look into something similar by you. GD's site says they do some deliveries, but I imagine those are mostly local. Google architectural salvage with your area and see what pops up. I was playing around online last night and saw some amazing things. Some of those places are expensive though. The Restores are nationwide and in Canada, and you pay pennies on the dollar. Anyone within a reasonable distance should go check those out!

I will check for a Restore location. She's in Western NY. Thanks.

Just at first glance, this is what I might do. This involves closing in the pass-thru a little bit, but that should not cost much at all (hopefully).

The island can be table height. When I was little, we had a huge (everything is huge when you're little) island that was table height. We did all the baking on there; it was perfect. In a pinch, I think you could seat 6 if you use the frig end.

"No metal drawers/cabinets (like IKEA)...I couldn't talk her into IKEA and it's b/c of the metal drawers. She had metal drawers many, many years ago (pre-1960) and hated them, so no-go now."

Has she seen/experienced the current Ikea drawers? If not, is it possibble to visit an Ikea and get a hands-on experience of them? It would be a shame to dismiss them as they offer so much value for money and they are certainly very, very different from the pre-1960 drawers.

My thoughts were very similar to Houseful.

If your mom likes the stove where it is, you could still move the dishwasher to the left of the sink, then a cabinet, then the refrigerator. Between the fridge and the window, you could put a shallower cabinet (so as not to block the window) and either have a small pantry or broom closet.

The island is a nice idea, but I wonder if she's going to like the stools. My mom doesn't...she prefers chairs in the kitchen. They may take up more space, but she says they're more comfortable :)

Plllog...that was my first suggestion, but she vetoed it saying it would cost too much. No, no estimates yet, though.

Ah, if cost is her only reason for not converting the passthrough into a door, I think if you get an estimate you will really be surprised. The pass through is essentially a doorway without a bottom and unless some obstruction runs right through it or it is blocked on the DR side by baseboard heating ro something, its really a matter of continuing the opening down to the floor and finishing the edges.

One thing that this *will do however is shift the entire kitchen into a traffic pattern that didn't previously exist. With the current convoluted openings being all to the right, with a better appliance layout you could get all of the "work" over to the left and traffic goes from the back door to the hallway all on the right because that is the only way it *can.

Making a doorway into the dining room bisects the kitchen from back door to middle of upper wall with a new traffic pattern because going into the dining room becomes the more direct route into the living spaces.

Exactly! Which is why I thought having the space filler of a teacart or rolling cabinet filling the space currently, and kept after an eventual doorway was cut would be useful. Door closed, cart in place, people still walk around, door open, cart pushed against table, easy access to serve in the dining room and not have to trot around the whole house.

In fact, is there any possibility that there was originally a door there that was reduced to a pass through on a previous remodel? If so, restoring it would be easy! It often happens that where one thinks an opening should be in an older house, one finds one lurking underneath...

Hard just to give up on Ikea for someone determined to save money. How about going to (a distant?) lunch and just dropping by Ikea for fun? It's very different from the usual and an entertaining walk-through, and she'd get to make a fully informed refusal. :)

Is that wall by the toaster oven bearing at the kitchen end? Nipping that back a few inches to a couple of feet opens interesting possibilities.

If she likes a table, why not keep one in the middle, just smaller? Very homey, very functional when extra storage isn't required, and very inexpensive. It could be an expandable type for when it's just them. I missed giving myself one this time around, but I've promised myself one smack in the middle for my own old-age, Julia Child-type kitchen.

Not least, where do the washer/dry go when those stairs become a bit of a hardship? Even if they plan to move to a retirement condo or some such eventually, it'd be a shame to leave prematurely for such a reason, but laundry is a major function after all. A plumbed closet, for instance at one end of Houseful's pantry, would be a very sensible investment. Her china might go there, along with some other upper-cabinet stuff, in comfortable reach.

How does she feel about upper cabinets? Tall enough to like them, or ? Would she like to save some money there? :)

Hi buehl, I took a crack at a design for your mom's kitchen using a program I just recently bought (chief architect) ... but now I can't figure out how to copy it out of there and into a picture. And it's past my bedtime so I'm really stupid (more than usual!) and spinning in circles lol. I do want to try to post it though, so hopefully I can figure out how to do that tomorrow night.

Meanwhile if anyone knows how to cut and paste from chief architect into a picture (e.g., jpeg) I'd be most grateful for a tip. Thanks.

I am no good at layout, so I will leave that to the experts on this forum. I wanted to comment on appliances. I wasn't quite clear from your OP what, if any, appliances your mom will be replacing. But I wanted to comment on my mother's experience with new appliances when she moved to a condo in FL. She moved out of the home she had lived in for 45 years, and her appliances in that home were about 25 years old and still going strong. She had Thermador wall ovens, the way Thermador USED to make them, built like a tank (sigh). So, we got her Thermador wall ovens for her FL condo since the familiar name made her feel comfortable. The problem was that the new ones are operated by a control panel, an electronic display. The temperature read-out is digital. My mom missed the big "dial" where you just turned it to the temp you wanted, and the red light would go out when it reached temperature. The new wall ovens are too complicated for her, and I am afraid she doesn't use them as much as she could, just because of that. Furthermore--and I have posted about this before--she got a DW with the controls hidden in the door. In hindsight it would have been much better to have a DW with controls on the front that are large and easy to push. The controls inside the door are small and under a pad, so she has a hard time discerning one button from the next, and lacks the dexterity to push the buttons easily. She uses the eraser end of a pencil to help her, but really, we should have paid more attention to the "button issue" when shopping for a DW.

There are a few wall ovens out there with big knobs instead of display panels (I think DCS and GE Monogram, but there may be others). Or, if she is getting a range, try to find one with the simplest knob controls rather than having to push buttons to set the temperature. And DW's with easy-to-push buttons on the front I am hoping are still available on the market. Similarly, if I were going to buy my mom a MW, I'd get one of the Panasonics which have a dial and easy push-buttons, rather than the Sharps and GEs' display panels which are harder to read and figure out, for a senior citizen.

HTH.

Here's my suggestion. Probably breaks a boatload of rules re. work triangles and who knows what else, but I think I'd like this layout myself if I was usually the sole cook; made heavy use of microwave, toaster oven and toaster; plus wanted somewhere for the occasional family "helpers" to "help" without getting too much into my cooking space. :)

First, I'd get a smaller table (48x36) with a leaf that could extend to 66x36 for seating 6 when needed. Sears has them for a few hundred bucks and I'd prefer that to a low-height island myself. Perhaps the leaf could be stored in tall cabinet beside fridge when not in use.

{{gwi:1943690}}

The corner base cabinet is supposed to be a lazy susan, not a bumped out corner, but I couldn't figure out how to draw that.

{{gwi:1943691}}

Cabinets from left to right are 21" (18 deep) pantry, 12" tray cab, 30" range with vented hood then uppers above, 30" pot drawers and 18" drawer base with 24" microwave cabinet beside 18" cab above. Then 36" sink base, 39" corner susan, then dishwasher, recycle pullout, and base/uppers for everyday dish and silverware storage.

{{gwi:1943692}}

Alcove has 9" broom/storage pullout, refrigerator, and 24" base with decorative & glass uppers above ... could store special china and silver there, with display pieces above. Given the fridge is 33" deep now, could maybe do 30" deep bases with 15" decorative uppers?

{{gwi:1943693}}

Lastly, none of the above 3D pics did justice to the dog bowl spot complete with doggie, LOL, so here is one last view. :-)
{{gwi:1943694}}

Taggie,
I especially like how easy your layout makes putting away the shopping.

Bring in groceries thru back door and set on table. Then easily put away in pantry and fridge.

Thanks everyone! Sorry I've been out of touch this week...b/w 10-hour days at work, county fair (working at school's booth), kids' sports camps, and kids' doctor appts, my week has been way too busy! I can't believe sports practices start Saturday for fall sports at school! This summer is flying by!!!

Thanks so much for "sticking with me" even though I've been MIA!

I'm looking at everyone's comments now & will get back to you soon!

I love Taggie's dog demo! Taggie, what software do/did you use?

I hope not to insult anyone, but if budget is really tight, would RTA cabinets from China be absolutely out of the question? I used some a few months ago in a rent house and they came out really gorgeous. Solid wood and dovetail drawers. Just a thought.

I have to ditto shannonplus2. I am 63, big whoop, but when I was looking to replace my electric stove that had too many bells and whistles, I had a devil of a time finding a gas stove that turned on and off. I never did find one with the oven dial instead of digital without paying an arm and a leg for that one feature so mine is digital. LOVE the knobs that control the fire. I tried to cook on electric for 5 years and 11 months. Never got it figured out. I went back to gas. If your mom has always cooked with gas you might want to get a good hot plate or even an induction hot plate to see if she thinks she will really like it. Althought I use my induction hot plate a lot, I "cook" on the gas range.

Technology is a wonderful thing - if you can figure it out. I'm wearing bifoculs now and seeing those little numbers is a trial. Big buttons. On. Off. Numbers I can see. I would like to have gotten a timer that wasn't digital but no such luck. I use a wind up timer that I've had for a hundred years. I identify with your mom SO much. Don't make me learn new tricks now. I have a list of stuff I want to do. Learing how to turn on an appliance isn't on that list!

P.S. It's going to take more than a week.. What state does your mom live in?

Hey computerklutz, the software I used is called Chief Architect Home Designer Suite 9.0: http://www.homedesignersoftware.com/products/homedesignersuite/ ... you can get it at Best Buy and other stores like that. It's surprisingly easy to use. I've never been able to figure out any online programs like google sketchup; they just completely baffled me. But I figured out this one no problem and that's saying something since my handle should be computerklutz2.

Taggie, thanks so much! (lol about computerklutz2)

Hi, buehl, just checking back in to see how it's going..?

Thanks for asking jbrig!

I'm back on and off today. My mom's been ill. She had surgery on her foot at the beginning of the month and it became seriously infected. It's only now that we seem to be getting the infection under control. I was going to present her with some ideas based on everyone's thoughts and comments here but when I called her yesterday she told me that now her computer is infected (with a virus)! Sheesh! That means, unfortunately, that she cannot see the ideas & layouts and comment on them. Plus, I know my mom and she probably cannot handle something else to deal with right now. She's 75 and while she's normally very flexible and on top of things, when multiple things go wrong she doesn't like to add anything else until she's gotten through the problems first.

Anyway, I've come up with several possibilities that I thought I'd pass on to everyone here...but I have quite a few! I did some "ideal" layouts as well as those that don't involve so many changes. I think I have to go with the ones that don't involve too many structural changes.

I'll start a new thread later today.

If anyone wants to look meanwhile...

Here is a link that might be useful: Buehl's Mom's Kitchen Suggestions

Hi Buehl To follow up on dianalo's suggestion, I recommend a trip to Second Chance in Baltimore and Restore in Gaithersburg. Lots of interesting stuff. I know your mother lives in western NY but maybe there are similar places to check out. I hope she feels better soon.

Oh, I know that can't deal feeling! I hope your mom gets better quickly!! Infections are awful!

I really like #9 best just for the kitcheny part. It's great! Though I'm not sure that in that sized kitchen two sinks are a good use of cabinet space. The bathroom doesn't work. As drawn there's no way to get in the door. Is it allowable on the code there to open into a kitchen? Change that into a pantry, and I'm on board.

For the less changes ones, I like #4 best.

You're right Plllog, you can't use that PR door b/c of the sink! I guess it was wishful thinking b/c there's only one bathroom in the house and it's a pain when we visit! Can you believe that we grew up in the house with 6 kids, 2 adults, 1 dog, and several cats? One bathroom!!

I think families like the one you grew up in learn a lot of self-control. :) If you're really determined to get a bathroom in there, they do make toilet-sink combos (that look a lot better than the prison ones on TV). If that area isn't plumbed now, however, it might be difficult (read pricy) to get the fall right for the sewer line.

Even with the line for the one bathroom, I like it as a pantry. :) 'Course, I'm not the pregnant lady waiting for the facility with the cross legged toddler.

I hope your mom is feeling better, and recovers quickly!

I'm procrastinating today, and took a look at all of the ones in your link along with your original post. Each of them breaks some of the "likes/dislikes" you first mentioned, so it'll be important to get a sense of what your mom sees as the biggest no-nos. Will she play the "if cost were no object?" brainstorming game?

Regarding the half bath: we had one that tiny in our old house. What made it work is that we had a sink that mounted in the corner of the room, rather than on the short wall. From a resale perspective, adding a half bath would probably be a worthwhile investment. On the other hand, you didn't mention the bath as a desire at all in your original post, so it may not be worth the hassle.

The other key question is whether your mom would be willing to give up the table in the kitchen if she consents to opening up the doorway to the dining room. My hunch is that she might bend on opening up the doorway, but she's unlikely to give up the table.

The single biggest improvement in workflow, I think, would be to open up the passthrough into a doorway, and move the fridge closer to the entrance to the kitchen.

So, to summarize -- to get all three key features (a door to the dining room, a table in the kitchen, and a half bath), the only floorplan that works is #8. And the one drawback that I see to that plan is that the dishwasher is far away from the dining room.

Is it possible to put the main sink up to the left of the dining room doorway, and put the dishwasher to the left of the sink? You could make the bank of lower cabinets along the south wall a shallower depth, to give more clearance around the table.

I'd start with a modified version of #8 in trying to "pitch" something to your mom.

Another note on drawbacks -- in options 3 and 4, the trash is way off in the corner and far away from the sink, which would be a dealbreaker for me. It seems like you could switch it with the silverware to move it back next to the sink.

Before I did a thing with the design, I would consider your parents' age and any health problems.

Vision changes? Need excellent lighting.
Hip or knee problems? A banquette may not be user-friendly.
How tall are they? Do you need to customize counter heights?
Back problems? Impacts counter and sink heights, and requires storage to minimize bending.
What if the W&D need to be moved back upstairs, as someone already mentioned?
Is wheelchair accessibility an issue?

My whole focus would be on a kitchen that will help keep them in their own home for as long as possible.

I can't imagine that putting a door to the DR would be very expensive--it's a DIY project if ANYONE in the family could do it in a weekend. The two houses I've dealt with that had pass thrus to the DR drove me nuts. It would be so much nicer to have a door there!

That, and having a 1/2 bath would be absolutely top priorities for me, but the 1/2 bath could add more cost than she might be able to pay for. If you use a small corner sink, the pocket door will be fine.

Since she wants electric, I would STRONGLY encourage her to look at the positives of induction, and get a range with an induction top. It is SO much better than regular electric--easier to clean, much safer, absolute and immediate control of temperature, boils water faster, doesn't heat up kitchen, it's energy efficient, etc. My induction cooktop is by far our favorite feature of our kitchen! Even though it cost more than we'd planned on, it was definitely worth it. It's not that difficult to learn how to use. (I'm only a few years younger than she is, and I don't usually like learning how to use new stuff, but this was easy.)

Of course, that might mean new pans, but maybe the family could go together for a present of one of the more inexpensive sets that works with induction. Also, you may have the extra expense of running electrical to accommodate the induction, but from a safety standpoint alone, it might be worth it to have the induction.

It seems like plan #8 might work best, especially if you switch the double sink with the prep sink. That way, your mother could also use the prep sink (make it a large one) to work with her plants easily, since it would be right by the back door. Also, this end of the kitchen could have her tea materials, beverage cups and glasses for the rest of the family, the MW, toaster oven, and she'd have the large window view and lots of natural light to do these pleasant daily tasks. The double sink under the smaller window would put it, the DW, and the dishes closer to the DR.

If she wants more storage, I'd get rid of the curved upper shelves (in one of your plans) by the smaller window, and add 3-6" to each upper cabinet, unless she has lots of knick-knacks that she wants to reach up and dust as she gets older. Obviously, an island would give her more storage than a table. If you make the island 36" w x 48" l, you could have two 24" wide cabinets opposite the range, and a 12" deep "table" overhang on the dog dish side.

Anne

I just went back and noticed that your dad is also there! If an island is ok instead of a table, you could make the cabinet facing the range 36", and also have an overhang on the fridge side of the island, thus making and L-shaped eating area for two people. But maybe the table makes more sense, since it would allow more flexibility, and the storage in one cabinet would not be as convenient as if there had been two cabinets in the island.

Anne

Just for contrast, regarding the advice on induction, my mother, same generation, would advise getting electric coils even if it means having the most unfancy stove. She totally disdains the glass top radiant, but while she finds my induction fascinating she absolutely does not want to learn to use something new. She wants to cook the same way she's been cooking for more than 50 years.

plllog, my mother wouldn't even use a microwave! On the other hand, my grandmother (her mother), bought every new gadget and appliance that came along until she died at age 86! I was strongly recommending the induction so that her mother might at least LOOK at it. Then she could make a decision.

Anne

Sorry to hear about your mom's health issues, buehl. Hope she makes a quick recovery.

Given your parents' age and potential physical limitations now and in the future, I'd steer clear of placing the DW anywhere but in line with the sink. Placing it 90 degrees to the sink requires a fair bit of twisting and then bending to load and unload a DW (speaking from experience, my current set-up is a corner sink with DW at an angle to it). If they have hip, back or knee issues, this motion will likely aggravate them.

I can't remember the plans well enough beyond the above impression. Took me a bit to realize that you had added a link to the plans and not posted them in the thread as you usually do.

Gas cooktops are non-existent in the over-55 development where my dad lives. I wondered about this when my folks built the home in the early 90s because gas is quite prevalent in our area but there's a really good reason for it. Electric coils pose less of a fire hazard to sleeves and loose clothing than gas flames, a real concern as people age and don't see as well or become forgetful. Induction is even safer than electric coils. (hubby's grandmother forget the newspaper was on top of the stove when she turned the burners on. Yikes! Thankfully her daughter was there and put the fire out immediately.) When the time comes for my dad to replace the cooktop, I'm going to push for induction. My mom was very neat and tidy but my dad isn't and I have this fear that he'll accidentally set the place on fire. Yes, it's a pain to learn new technology but I think his safety and my peace of mind are worth it.