Do you have enough space on the sink wall to put your refrigerator at the end of the counter to the left of your sink? That arrangement would allow for better flow, especially for people using the frig to just get a can of soda or the milk. The way you have it now, any time someone comes into the room, they have to go into the work area to get to the frig. With kids and cooking and all, it's best to locate the frig where it's easy to access, but not in the middle of the room.

I should have included this with my above post. If you could relocate the frig to the location I suggested, I would then move the cook top to where you show the frig located in the new plan. This would allow for a better work triange, and would give you a full open, uncluttered peninsula for your counter seating, which would be much preferable.

I can see why you'd like this new idea, but the old stove location gives you better venting. With the new plan, I'd be afraid of smoke, steam, odors, and grease spreading throughout your house. You also show seating closely behind the stove, which, I think, would be a spatter zone hazard.

nanny2a read my mind!

I know you put the fridge on that wall out of necessity (by removing the wall between kitchen and dining room), but I think you'll really come to hate it, esp. with five people using it. People will always be cutting through the middle of the kitchen to get to it, plus with it there and your range facing the dining room, you have no clear countertop run. I'd imagine with five people that's something you'd all like -- elbow room!

Since you're putting all those stools at the counter, can you give up (some of) the breakfast nook space for more kitchen?

I agree with Nanny. The perfect spot for the fridge is left of the sink, easy access for everyone. You could put the DW right next to it and center the sink on the window and the range could stay in the same spot.

Do you really need all that counter seating? YouÂll have a lot of places to eat within eyesight of each other and I think youÂd be better off ditching the peninsula for a nice island with maybe 3 stools. Then you could have pantry space right of the range.

It would drive me nuts to see the kitchen from the front door. Couldn't you keep part of the wall to better hide the work zone and sink full of dirty dishes(I'm projecting, of course), and a shorter seating overhang at the end?

Oh, and I was also going to suggest moving the refrigerator to the end run of the window wall but many people beat me to it.

Thanks for the feedback!

I should have mentioned that the space between the window and where the bay window area starts is only 32 inches wide. Way too narrow. :( I know that's the perfect spot, and it's pretty typical for the U-shaped layout to be there... but alas, there's a huge window in the way! I would move the window if the outside wasn't stone - it would just be too complicated.

Also, with the bar seating - it would be up a level like a typical bar area (how much is that, maybe 6 inches up?) That would a) eliminate splatter concerns (for the most part - I rarely cook spatter-prone food, too) and b) hide the kitchen better. :) I like the idea that I could be at the stove making eggs for the kids and they would be sitting eye-level chatting.

I'll be honest with you on the hood thing - we learned the hard way that our stove is not actually vented. You would think it was since it's on an outside wall, but nope - it just goes into the cabinet. So venting it wouldn't be hard at all since it would take work either way. (And that new location is still only a few feet from the outside wall.)

The mess of seating is mainly because we entertain a lot and often groups gather in different areas to talk or play (kids). Right now, there's no great way to have people gather around the cook, so I was hoping the bar area would fix that. You think it's too much? I can't really get rid of the other eating areas just because they are functional, too. Hmmmm, I will have to think about it.

I guess this is affirming my fear that this layout sucks! Haha. I knew it when we moved it, but at least there's room for some improvement.

Would love to hear ANY thoughts! Thank you!

What if you put the refrigerator on the short wall exterior to your powder room (where you have the narrow cabs). Then get rid of the breakfast table and put in a built in banquette inside the bay?

I donÂt think the layout sucks but it does seem like you are trying to squeeze a bunch of things in. You just need to make it flow.

What about keeping the range and sink where they are, getting rid of the peninsula, turning the island (with seating backing to the nook) and putting the fridge to the right of the range? I donÂt really like that for access from the casual dining areas but it is out of the traffic area.

This is a tough one! I agree with everyone else; having the fridge at ground zero will be a constant irritation. Putting an island in front of it will create a complete roadblock when the fridge door is open. Your sink is miles away and around a detour from where you'll be cooking, and I don't see convenient dish storage near the dishwasher.

Sometimes we fear doing what needs to be done, and will come up with inelegant work-arounds that end up costing much more in money and aggravation than the thing that we fear.

I urge you to reconsider reducing the size of the window over the sink so that you get enough room to put in at least a 36" wide counter-depth fridge. 42" would be better. A good stone siding mason should be able to work out some decent patching for the exterior, and the money spent there will more than pay off in the utility of the kitchen. If you had a spectacular view from it I might hesitate to recommend reducing the size of the window, but since you're looking into a back yard view isn't that much of an issue. Also, do the soffits have to stay? If not, treat yourself to a tall garden or bay window to compensate for the lack of lateral size.

Next, I'd put the dishwasher about where your oven is currently. That means you can put your dishes away easily in the available cupboard space.
It also gives you a nice run of countertop for prep space.

I question how the kitchen will interface with the living/dining room. In your plan, removing the wall jams your hang-out bar right up against the side window, and does away with the formality of your "formal living/dining area". What you'll end up with is a kitchen at the intersection of 2 family rooms. Now, maybe you want that kind of open plan. Formal living and dining rooms are frequently neglected areas, but, with 3 kids, do you really want it THAT open?

Here's a suggestion: instead of having your bar and bar seating where you currently show it, shorten the distance between the sink wall and the bar area by a foot or two, build a right-angled or curved peninsula and put your seating on the portion that faces the family room. Raise the side that faces the dining room, (42" - 48") put cabinetry beneath it and it becomes a sideboard/buffet/standing bar. (If depth is in issue, even 8" deep cabinets impersonate a nice display case.) It'll be easy for guests to hang out there, chat and nibble when you're being informal. When you do want to have a more formal dinner the height creates a greater sense of formal enclosure, especially if you put a nice display on top of the counter such as a silver tea set, a festive setup of wines and glasses, or even a couple of matching vases of flowers.

This would all make more sense if I could draw it for you, but unfortunately I don't know how to do that on the computer. I do know how to scan a document, at least, and if you'd like I could email you a sketch. HTH.

I had a 42" bar to be a visual block from the living room in our last house...Didn't really block much. It'll block what's on the counter immediately behind it, but not the rest of the room. For instance, you'll see your cleanup sink from the living/dining area...and pretty much any counter that isn't right beside the stove. Anyway, maybe that's all you expect, but I was disappointed.

My sister has a very similar floorplan to what you have that we've been fighting with for a couple years, and we've seen others here, too...It is a tough one to redesign to come up with a better layout. My sister's house has floor and ceiling height changes that make it even more challenging. Pushing toward the dining room is a good idea.

Are you keeping your existing fridge? Maybe could consider something like a 30" LiebHerr or other narrower model?

What's between your sink and dishwasher? I would want them next to each other.

Thanks again everyone - your comments kept me thinking.

As we all know, this is about trade-offs. If I want a wider kitchen, having a wall there just won't work because of the huge living room window. I have thought and thought about it, and I think I will just have to live with it being open to the front and dining get what I really want (wider plus an island/bar).

Here is a different option that comes a bit from comments:

Instead of a U, it's an L plus an island. The island looks funky because I can't make an overhang, but I figured out how to make a bar-ish area! I know that the best area for the fridge is still by the window, but at least with this layout there's more than one way to get there... (again, trade-offs)

Standing in the front entry:

With back to the family room:

From the kitchen table:

Not perfect, but closer to something functional given the trade-offs?

This looks much better. I only noticed two issues that you might want to tweak:

1. The aisle between the seating on on the island and the bathroom wall is too narrow. If anyone is perched at your island, it will be very difficult for people to walk between the two rooms. A narrower island would still give you seating for five, but eliminate that bottleneck. Since you say you entertain a lot, seems like traffic flow/control should be a fairly high priority.

2. Looks like you have a MW, oven or something placed in the island so that it will open toward the range, which could cause problems if someone is trying to open the oven at the same time. Looks like your aisle is only about 42", pretty narrow for competing appliances and traffic control.

I like it, but would make the island all one level. What's in the island facing the range?

Oops...Just noticed your aisles look very tight. For a multi-person kitchen, you'll probably want 42-48" aisles, and more behind any seating.

Island can't seat six anyway (jill's law - two sets of legs can't occupy the same corner at the same time) - so if you cut the corner with a 45 degree angle?

The problem: I'm only seeing about 30" aisles, so once she cuts off a foot on 2 sides for better aisles (so the island is now about 4'x4'), then cuts the corner at a diagonal, there is only room left for 2 seats...Am I figuring/seeing this right? I see room for an island about 3' x 4 1/2'.

Dang! I just screwed up and didn't read it carefully..

4 by 5.5 and it moves a bit towards dining room. 42" aisle at bathroom wall and range/ref wall, 36" on the cleanup aisle.

Hi,

What program are you using to create all of these layouts?

I'm currently doing mine on graph paper, and I'd love to get the 3-D views without resorting to using Play-Dough. :-)

Thanks!

la koala - It's the Better Homes and Gardens software. I think it's maybe $80? You can download it, too. It's easy!

=========================================

Okay, more thought inspired by the great comments. I am such a visual person that I just had to do some more playing, and I think I may have a couple more ideas to try, still.

The only thing I can't seem to fudge is the view from the front door. I have been trying! I also decided that ideally the main work areas would face the family room, since that's where the huge TV is and where the kids hang out. I don't really want the range facing the front of the house - and definitely not around that hump of the 1/2 bath (which I would love to move, but can't).

Option 1: Another island (different cabs to shake it up. Hehe)

(Those are dishwasher drawers in the island.)

There is 32" on the fridge side aisle. I know that's not ideal, but I can still tweak.

With a raised bar:

Another with a raised bar instead:

And instead of another table (we have the dining room plus stools), I added a sitting area for coffee or chatting.

And then this is another U shape that allows the stove-user to have a clear view of the family room and provides plenty of seating. There's the same amount of aisle space that we have no as the entry to the kitchen. The only thing I wasn't sure about was the U area. It's 49 inches - is that enough space?

From the new sitting area:

From the family room:

Thoughts?

Coming in late....I tried to read all the replies so hopefully I didn't miss anything....but, what was wrong w/the range on the wall? I liked the Tuesday layout better than these with the exception of the aisles. I think if you narrowed the island and eliminated one side for seating it would work. Without a layout showing aisle widths, etc., it's difficult to rate these new layouts.

Of the two new ones, I prefer the second one (U), but I would see if I could move the range back to the wall; the DW drawers could go to the peninsula. Personally, I don't like a range/cooktop in islands or peninsulas b/c of:

(1) safety issues (somewhat addressed by raising the bar...but still not enough room b/w seats & range top...should have at least 24" b/w the people and the back of the cooktop/range...i.e, 24" of empty counter b/w them) Think of your children eating or doing homework (or crafts) sitting at the island or peninsula with hot grease splattering or hot steam billowing out from a pot.....

(2) venting issues...yes, you can use a downdraft, but they're only slightly more useful than a recirculating hood for the back burners and useless for the front. You could use an island hood but they're much more expensive, often difficult to vent outside, and cut into the view b/w the kitchen & other rooms.

(3) eliminates the nice big expanse of counter space for spreading out kids' projects or for baking or other large-scale prep needs.

I do notice that you have two living areas and three eating areas (two tables + island) Do you really need all those eating areas? OR are you turning the bay area into yet another living area? Could any of them be used to expand the kitchen somewhat:

...the bay area b/w the FR & Kitchen
...eliminate seating at the island
...push the table & chairs further into the LR & add more walk-way area b/w island & table thereby allowing a wider island

Just some thoughts.

I understand your desire for more of everything but with your limited space & it's fixed configuration, I think you need to evaluate what you really need & want overall for the entire first floor and then plan how to handle the kitchen.

Good luck!

I like the sitting area. I was thinking that you had quite a lot of table seating! With 5 people, I don't think your U is big enough. I think everyone is going to be trying to get out of eachothers' way. Not sure someone could be at the range and sink at the same time.

I don't think you'll be comfortable with 32" in front of the refrigerator. How much do you have from the back of the island to the wall? I currently have 30" from my frig to my island and we hate it. If the door is slightly open, it's hard for anyone to pass by. I would try and get that to at least 36". Do you have wider aisles between the sink and island. Could you put the frig to the left of the sink?

Y'all are right - the spaces were too small. Point well received! :)

Thoughts on this layout? I would get full use of the L space plus a bar area. Ignore the weird shape of the penn. - it would obviously be carefully created to match the layout and not have crazy sharp corners!

With some dimensions - too cramped still?

I didn't take the time to work the bar dimensions correctly, but it would be a 42 inch bar (I would like it high for standing conversations - plus we are tall people with me being 5'11", so I like taller stuff :D), and the bar area would be ample for plates and glass with as much counter below as possible.

Also, I didn't take care to make sure the arc was right, but you get the idea. If done right, I think that arc could provide some architectural interesting-ness to a somewhat uninteresting area.

Thank you guys!

Bump. Anyone? :)