I forgot to mention... that dotted line on the south end? Well... the first 5 feet have to solid wall but I had the idea today when I was over at the house to make the rest (where I orginally wanted to take out the 51" pantry) to make that a half wall. There's some dead space on the other side that overlooks the family room but is othewise not usable. I thought I could lay snacks out for people hanging in the family room which is below the kitchen and in the front of the house. Man... I hope it's not stupid... cause today I thought it was brilliant. But if it's ridiculous... please please please just tell me outright and don't hesitate.

Without looking back to remember
where you've come from, the thing
that jumps out first at me is that its
a round-a-bout walk to get something
from the fridge while at the dinner table.
But I'm sure at this point in your layouts
you have thought about that already.
Also, isn't there supposed to be a little
space (cab) between corner and dw so it
doesn't open up into you at the sink?
I truly understand how tough it is to
work within limits... best of luck!

DUH... the DW door thing, I shoulda seen that. OK.. flip the sink and cooktop, adjusting sizes of course, flip the DW and a 24" cab and I guess that addresses that point. I could even do a 36" on the end instead of a 24". I'd probably do the peninsula in something prep worthy like BB or marble. I forgot to mention that I'm giving up the overhang in lieu of the comfy bench. The bench has spaces for baskets. You could take an empty one out and flip it over to use like a snack table if you wanted. My DH is like MacGuyver.... always coming up with alternative solutions... guess I've been hanging around him too long. He hasn't seen any of this yet!

Have you found out if the wall at the pantry is structural or not?

I actually like the sink and induction in the same run. What I am doing in this two option drawing is invading the pantry space to provide enough room for a cabinet to the left side of the induction and the oven stack.

I'm killing the bench for a dumping ground piece - possibly a short drop top or roll top desk with the tv placed above it. I think if you use stuffed, comfortable dining chairs with arms, you'll have enough good places to sit.

In the blue set, I moved the ref wall closer to the induction run and introduced shelves on both the breakfast side and the family room side. They would add some architectural woodwork. The seven foot aisle is now a five foot aisle.

The white set shows an alternate placement of the ref and buffet. The aisle goes back to seven feet and the new pantry gets larger.

{{gwi:2108847}}

Gosh, Elyse (your name is Elyse, isn't it?). I really liked the one you had the other day, w/ the induction, uc oven,and fridge on one side, and the sink, dw and penin on the other, w/ those glass-door cabs on the pantry wall. So much so that I tried to create a similar version of thatt design for my kitchen! (It didn't work w/ my house well, though).

If you really are ok w/ losing the overhang, I'd at least put a half wall behind your cooktop/sink counter. Having that induction cooktop on an open countertop w/ nothing behind it gives me pause--I was reading on the Applicances forum about induction today, and some folks felt it was a little slippery. Without something behind it, it could be dangerous/messy.

It seems to me that 24 inches between the cooktop and sink is not much at all. Granted, it looks like an enormous sink, so you might not have stuff piled up on the left, waiting to be washed. But...where will you stand to do your prep work? I'd want to stand in that 24" prep area between sink/cooktop so I could see out the window and chat w/ whoever's in the window-y area (if that's where people hang out). Not enough room there. I guess the open area next to the fridge has a good stretch of counter space...is that where you'd work?

How big does the table open up to be, and how often do you open it? I'd rather have a wicker loveseat than the bench. What if you put a corner-mounted TV in the upper corner back of the dining table? It could be seen by you at the counter, DH at the table, and whoever's on that bench/loveseat (do they even make those upper corner mounts now that TVs are flat? we have a 25-yr-old console TV so I don't know!).

To me, this one just loses the simple, natural, easy-to-digest feel that the one the other day had. Seems to be overthought. Of course, it's your kitchen and you're going to live in it, not look at it on paper, right? Maybe take a day or two off from looking at it -- just try to relax and forget it a little. I hate to see tension between people over stuff like where the table goes. Maybe a little time w/out you preoccupied about the kitchen would relieve the tension in your house a bit -- good for both of you.

You can worry on my layout instead ;-) -- I'm getting ready to post it soon.

Oh bmore... the problem with the layouts... and I must have neglected to mention this... the walk in pantry (aka, old laundry room) has a door on the south end which is the only entrance to the music room (use to be garage). Both sides of the dining area have 9' wide 67" high windows. Those windows were the driving force behind a zillion layout versions which were created when we were planning on extending the house. Now that we decided to live with the existing footprint, I've had to restart the layout process. I like the notion of the built in shelves. My dining chairs are pictured on another thread and are comfy... but not overstuffed kind of comfy. I'll study the layouts in the morning to see what I can take from them. THANK YOU!! OH.. and 51" of the pantry wall is not structural. The first 5' from the left back onto the garage (music room) and must stay.

Have to say I pretty much completely agree with scootermom about this plan vs the one from the other day. I like Bmore's layout(s), too, and they feel more comfortable to me than the top one...but I think I'd want more than 2 ft between sink and stove.

scootermom... a wicker type love seat would be ideal too. I just quickly grabbed a pic of something for to just give the idea of what I wanted to try. I'd have to search to find the perfect thing. This layout part is not the most fun... but shopping and picking out the "perfect thing" will surely make me do my happy dance. The TV can go in either corner . We have room both ways. You're right... it might be better on the left.

rhome... what if I combined the two? I love the idea of the half wall if it won't look too crazy.

Love you guys for being helpful.

This last one looks better. Will you still have those glass-door uppers on the pantry wall? That would make sense for dish storage. And I like that you still have your overlook into the FR/LR (can't remember which it is).

The fridge and dishes (if that's where you'll keep them, in those uppers by the pantry wall) are a little tucked away, but since it's just two of you, that won't cause problems the way it would for a family w/ a bunch of kids getting drinks, etc. When you entertain, you can set out drinks and ice somewhere, and stack plates on the buffet.

I like the idea of having the desk both as a functional piece and as a place to stow those extra dining chairs.

I'm glad you like the shopping part. I'm afraid I like the "on paper" part best...shopping's not my forte. Good that you have something to look forward to!

I will do glass uppers on the corner. I'd like to store my dishes in the drawers. Pots/pans bakeware too on the cooking side. I figure the coffee pot in the corner with mugs/glasses in the uppers to the side.

Does the sink location really have to stay put? Is it on a slab? It seems to me you could have much more layout options if the kitchen were on the right side (north, east?) without that doorway to consider. Also, I think the flow to the music/garage room and laundry would be better if the kitchen were on the other side.

{{gwi:2108848}}

Remodelfla,

I am coming late into this discussion so don't know if replacing windows would be an option but did you consider shorter windows (may be two out of three) and moving the kitchen into that dining area and the dining table into the current kitchen area?

Something like this:

This way your dining area is close to your sitting area and the kitchen can be very pretty with all these windows there.

Perhaps a crazy idea but I still wanted to share it with you. We are going to have a kitchen without windows but I love, love, love all the kitchens that are posted here that have windows all around without any upper cabinets there and when I saw your plan it just seemed like a great space to do something like that.

Bmore's last plan is so close to the 2 island plan, I'd go back to it instead...Is the reason it went away because of trying not to move the plumbing?

Addressing your last plan and getting out my red pencil. ;-) (Just a jumble of thoughts, really) I'm not a big fan of the half wall, because it's got your fridge tucked back where others can't access it without getting in your way. A quick grab for a soda or beer takes people clear into the kitchen. On the end is was handy to you and to everyone else. The other negatives are letting any smoke, steam, and smells into the whole house, because it'll be harder for the vent to capture everything. And the noise from the hoodvent will travel more, too. I liked the half wall better when the cooktop was over with the sink, so the counter there could become baking counter and serving counter.

I would be uncomfortable having the sink and/or cooktop in a peninsula without an overhang...So that they are right up to the edge of the counter. I'd want some overhang or a little backsplash wall.

I don't understand the cabinet facing the eating space? You'll have to have some sort of spacer between the 36" cab and the "prep island" so you can open the drawers. I'd think another corner cabinet might make more sense..And that prep counter isn't as valuable as it was, since it's not convenient to the fridge, the cooktop, or the oven any more.

I find myself wanting to move the main sink across to where the cooktop is, put dish storage where the fridge is, move the fridge to the buffet spot, and put a prep sink in the prep peninsula...But that's breaking the 'leave the sink where it is' rule. ;-)

mom2lilenj... yes, we're on a slab. I'm trying to accomodate DH's angst and also save a tremendous amount of work and money by using the exisiting plumbing wherever feasible. I had numerous layouts when we were considering the extension to our bedroom bathroom that had the kitchen on the other side. The amount of work involved, since we're going to DIY it where we can sent DH into a tailspin. He'd rather leave everything as is and thinks I can fix the entire house up for $5000.

bmore... I like that last one ALOT. It give the open feel I so desire and reminds me of the opposing islands layout (did I mention that whenever I say opposing islands the tune Dualing Banjos from Deliverance rings through my head) that rhome had come up with. Man... I loved that layout. Rhome... we had to give it up because I realized, after a miscommunication with DH that I cannot remove the first 5' of wall on the SW side.

annab6... that layout is lovely but would not work in our setting. The back of the house has a large window which will turn into a french door. It opens into a screen room which then opens to our large backyard and pool. I'm totally motivated by bringing in as much of the outside as possible. I'm not adverse to changing a window to counter height if it leads to the perfect layout. Again... I'm working with the intent to not have to change the plumbing locations if it can be avoided.

And to address the concerns about losing the overhang or a precarious situation with the sink or cooktop with no overhang. Both cab banks will be up against walls/half walls. I'm assuming that the walls are 4" thick minimum , which will give me additional counter depth. Does that help? Will it make the half wall on the south side overlooking the family more reasonable?

Hey Rhome... that red pencil mark reminded me of school which I go back to on Monday. Can you believe we start school down here so early? Recess in 90 plus degree heat... ya' gotta love it! There's always a bunch of drippy sweaty kids roaming the hallways.

I'd rather the ref be where the desk is shown.

Horizontally, the sink is bang on where the current sink is. Vertically, the island should move a foot towards the table space.

Moving plumbing with a slab may not be as bad as you think. We were able to add a prep sink in our island, which meant running water supply to and a drain from the island through the slab, for $500. I have seen others make similar plumbing changes in slabs -- usually about $500. It might lead to opening up some better possibilities. It made a world of difference for us.

Pondering input from all. Some questions.
How much room do I need for a corner sink? Can I have a 36" sink in a 36" corner cab or does it take up more space.

If we built a half wall on the right side, would I be able to put a sette(sp?) or some kind of small scale seating there?

lascatx... you're right that the sink is holding me up as is the broken wall space on the west. I had the toliet moved all the way in my 2nd bath and it was $800. Could make a huge impact on design choices.

I keep coming back to missing the open feel. That wall, half bothered me some... whole, bothered me alot the more I looked at it.

I let him know tonight that fixing it up is not about materials as much as it is about functioning in my space. Mentioned about how he has his music room, his storage yard, and his 15x26 ft. shed. It's a small home and this is my space if it's going to be my home too. He understood and just restated how much he use to like to sit in the back room. But agreed that we could use the table more. I'd like to know if these changes would enable a sitting space other then the table. Let me know what you think.

OH.. and I'd do uppers on the west wall with a MW/speed oven above the UC oven

OT: There is the coolest heat lightening storm going on right now. I'm sitting outside on the patio and soaking it in. Looks like white fireworks lighting up the sky.

I think for a standard corner sink you need a 42" corner cabinet and I think for a 36" straight sink you need a 48" corner cabinet, unless you recess it.

I think the traffic flow seems better in this version. How about if you put the peninsula on the living room side and rotate the island to make the kitchen area more open to the dining/sitting area?

I kinda rather look out back while cooking/prepping/whatever if I can. Also, I took into account rhome;s point about smoke/smells permeating the living area. Thanks for the info on the sink cab. I think I currently have a 33" double sink and like the size. I definately want a big sink though unsure if a double or single bowl. I'm no where near those fun decisions yet!

Then how about if the cook top goes in the island and the sink goes into the peninsula (with the peninsula on the living room side)?

I only mention this because personally I would rather have the kitchen open to the dining area/back of the house than open to the living room/front of the house. With the kitchen open to the living room it makes it convenient if you are sitting in the living room, but less so if you are sitting down to eat. In my situation with two little ones I'm making multiple trips from the kitchen to the dining room to set and clear the table, so for me giving easy access to the kitchen from the dining room is a high priority. In addition if you spend a lot of time outside, having the kitchen open to the back door will make it easy to grab a snack or to eat a meal outside. I don't think any of your versions are inconvenient, but just wanted to throw out what I saw as a potential nuisance to me.

Question: Is the west kitchen wall 10' or 11' long?

We're at the house now and I just remeasured, it's 10' long. That includes the doorway which we need to keep for access to the laundry/pantry(whatever it turns out to be) and the garage/music room.

Right now, your drawings are showing 11'...

Is the doorway 2' north of the south wall? That's what's in your current layout.

Whoops... my bad. Yes, the door is 2' north of the south wall. That desk area should be 5'. That side need to be moved up a foot. Good eye buehl.

Hey...question for you (as I'm debating this in my own design). Where are you going to have your trash? In a cabinet, or free-standing? Just something to think about....

I was thinking about your desire for a more open feel. It seems with the refrigerator on the east wall that it closes your kitchen in. What if you moved the refrigerator to the west wall? That area is already somewhat closed in b/c of the 1'4" wall on the north/west wall and the 4' wall on the south west.

If you move the cabinets south a bit, you could even have a peninsula w/seating rather than a knee wall (I think that's what those short walls are called...or are they pony walls?)

I also recommend putting in a pocket door to not only decrease the door's presence in the kitchen but to also help keep the open feel and yet have a door to open/close as you wish and to give you more usable space in that corner (no door interference).

Since the desk is important to you, I put it in the 2' space b/w the pantry/laundry door and the south wall. With the pocket door, there is still room for your two DR chairs. The doorway is 36" so even w/someone sitting at the desk there should be room to get by. As an added bonus, this location also shields the LR from any clutter that might accumulate on the desk! What this does mean, however, is that your pantry will have to go in that room to the left.

Also in both pics below:

• 36" Sink

• 36" Induction Cooktop

• 42" Hood

• 30" Under cabinet oven

• If you don't want as wide a passage way b/w the refrigerator & peninsula as I show (54"), you could shorten it by a few inches (6"?) and add those inches to the peninsula length.

• 36" Full depth refrigerator (you could put in a 36" CD refrigerator instead, if you'd rather. You'd gain about 6", I think, to add to the cabinet/peninsula length

• MW in 30" wall cabinet next to cooktop & hood

• Dish/flatware storage: In 24" cabinet in island + 39" cabinet to right of sink

• Glass storage: 18" wall cabinet next to refrigerator? (which I neglected to put in!!!)

BTW...you have a good 7' x 7' space to put a chair/bench & maybe small table & lamp for sitting in that area, regardless of layout!

First layout w/peninsula seating:

If you prefer a slightly bigger kitchen, you could have a couple of seats at the island instead....the advantage here is that people on the island look out toward the backyard!

Second layout w/island seating:

Adel Birch 29-7/8"W x 12-7/8"D x 30-3/8" Wall cabinet for MW: http://www.ikea.com/us/en/catalog/products/S09811830

I'm confused. I thought you were planning to use ikea cabs to save $$? I'm seeing a lot of custom cabinet sizes and shapes here. I also thought you wanted to keep the plumbing in its current location? If so, then why are you swapping sides of the kitchen? I guess I don't understand why you can't just put the table on the other side of the 10X16 room? There seems to be an equal amount of wall space surrounding the big slider, so I don't see why it makes a difference for traffic flow reasons which side of the room you enter from?

I've been following your threads for quite a while now (although mostly lurking), but it seems like you keep going in circles on your layouts. I completely understand that -- I've gone in many circles myself. However, I think if you're really ready to get going on your remodel, you need to do a few things before you can decide on a layout:

(1) Establish a realistic budget. Clearly, $5K for the entire house is not going to work if the kitchen alone is this desperate.

(2) Once you and your DH have established a real budget (including the overrun budget), you need to determine what can be done realistically within that budget. Start with materials -- what do you have to have, what is on your wish list, but is not necessary, etc. Then talk to a few contractors to get a general idea of what you're looking at WRT labor costs. Only then will you know whether you can even afford to change your layout.

I hope you don't take offense, because I honestly wish to help in your endeavor. The reason I am saying that you need to step back and prioritize with your DH so that everyone is on the same page is because you can make all the dreamy plans in your head, but it will be a huge disappointment when it turns out that what you want has no relation to what you can actually afford or accomplish. This is especially true right now with the economy in the dumps and the housing market doing belly flops. I understand where you're coming from -- I too was planning a fairly extensive remodel of our home, but have had to scale back considerably because my hopes were out of reach with the reality of the expense of a remodel. You should play with the ikea planner. It's very user friendly and will give you a very good idea of layout and cost for your materials.

scooter... In a perfect world I'd like my trash in a pullout. I definately need one somewhere in the kitchen hidden. I've been paying attention to how I cook lately. I tend to put a small plastic Publix bag on the counter as I cook for scraps, wrappings, etc. Then I wrap it up and through in my trash which is in a base cab but not pullout or in the trash can in the garage. Since I won't have a garage in this house; it's something I have to think about.

buehl... I'm think I'm headed in the right direction with these layouts. This house is such a funky layout; and the broken walls on the west just don't lend itself to functionality. It's ironic; today, DH started talking about his new huge shed that's going in the storage area where we keep a boat, motor home, and assorted other "stuff". He spoke about how he'll move the fence line for better access and to make the space more functional for him to move. I just smiled... and thought, I'm gonna remind him of this conversation so he can better relate to my needs for a kitchen that functions for me.

I like those layouts alot. I had thought, when I first started posting layouts; and I knew way less then I know now; that the general feedback when I placed the frig over there was that it was out of the loop. I kinda like it over there since I'm not a closed space kinda girl. Especially in a small house like this. I think we're going to get a 30" induction, which should be plenty 90% of the time. That could bring my countertop to 24" on the right which I'd be more comfortable with. I'd do the the island overhang if there's space since I"d like some small sitting something on the other side of the half wall I think we should build. 39" cab? How about a 15" for trash next to the sink and then a 24"?

Thanks so much for your thoughtful input.
Elyse

I just put in the length of the available area for you to parse out as you see fit! I think the trash + cabinet is a great idea...as long as you feel you can afford the space. With a fairly large pantry I don't think it will be a problem, especially since there are only two of you most of the time.

Sara...all the cabinets I put in are available from IKEA...I actually checked b/f suggesting them. The 39" was just a "place holder" for whatever Elyse wanted.

sarschlos...I truly appreciate the intent of your message and by no means take any offense. I have been going in circles because initally, we had planned on a 80K or so renovation. He's very very uncomfortable with me putting that kind of money into this house. He thought I could make it nice with the existing footprint with 5K. I told him it'll take 25-30K. And that's the budget I"m sticking with. Whatever we can't do ahead within that budget; we'll save for together and do as we live here.

IKEA is a plan because it's so cheap, however, I don't want to compromise my design because of it. He's also considering building the cabs himself; which would be ideal and give me complete flexibility. I'm also going to price out purchasing from a company like Meramac Kitchens and Floors which came recommended on this forum at huge savings. SO... I want the layout to come first, and I'll get the cabs that make it work. I can do a backsplash later, retile my bathrooms later, redo a flat roof on our screen patio later... for me, the kitchen and doing what it will take to make it happen comes first. He hasn't even come with me to IKEA yet to see the cabs and how there constructed. We have one structural thing we have to do with removing a bearing wall and dropping in a ibeam. Then I can move forward and physically begin the kitchen design. I tend to be very reactionary in my emotions; and read his lack of enthusiasm or hesitation as negativity. I'd like to have the plans somewhat set so I can have an electrician to rough in what we'll need or at least plan for it.
Thanks for taking the time to care.

If we were to put the frig there I could recess it into the wall and give up some space in the pantry/laundry. That is the upper part of the laundry room and where the water heater is. Next to it, where the frig would recess used to be the washing machine. Since that inset is 15", I could get a larger frig and make it look counter depth. The same concept would also work on the lower east side frig placement since that offset is 28". If we go with IKEA or any standard cabs; I thought it would make sense to pull them out and have deeper counters so it would be flush with the end of the offset.

I KNOW I've driven several of you crazy with my circular thinking but the parameters of what was going to happen kept changing. I feel as some form of this layout will meet my desire for openness and his desire to keep the existing footprint and not moving every other interior wall.

Many many thanks to rhome, bmore, buehl, sarchlos, scootermom, and the many others whose names escapes me right now for all your patience, diligence, and generosity of time and spirit.
Elyse

I sorry to advance "the circle", but is there not a way to tweak the two island version you loved so much? Maybe shorten one of the islands or swap some things?

Remodelfla, Where in FL are you? I just got a quote today from a guy who comes highly recommended by a friend whose kitchen I love, and the quote is lower than my first quote by about $2200. On my piddly remodel budget (under 10K), that's a HUGE savings, especially since he gave me the same cabinets I looked at elsewhere and upgraded my countertops. I'm in FL and thought I'd pass along the name/number if you're anywhere near St. Lucie County. I know he works the entire treasure coast area.

mom2lilenj... I tried every which way to salvage that layout. It was opened on both sides, front, back, about as open as a layout can get. But... I messed up and didn't realize that 5' of south west wall could not be removed. When I tried shifting one of the island over it looked like an obstacle course. Shortening them, left me with not enough room. So, the best alternative for that feel seems like the L with an island; especially since the L part will be an open peninsula. The best use of space seems to happen when I shift one side over to the unbroken wall. Thanks for encouraging me to maintain focus to achieve what I want.

lissa... I live in So. Florida, Broward County. But thanks anyway for thinking of me!