littlesmokie,

I know your tired of the entire remodel at this point but don't settle for anything less than what you hired them to do. I just had hardwood installed in my living room and the experience was less than optimal. I was quoted one day and it ended up taking 5 days. But in the end it's exactly what I wanted. If they messed it up make them fix it. You deserve a quality professional job. Even if you get a discount, someday soon you'll probably find yourself paying someone to correct the mistake and it will probably cost more than the discount. HTH Good luck

I am sorry you are going through this - and I empathize with you having gone through a similar flooring problem - multiple times. They lay new oak flooring over thinset that was cured but not dry so all the wood cupped and had to be ripped out. Same refinisher put a semigloss in the front part of the main floor but a satin on the back half of the house. He also sealed in tiny white paint chips from our front porch as he did not remove his outer footwear when applying the polyurethane.

What did we do? Well, we are the ones that pulled up the ruined floor and he brought over new flooring and said he would install it for free but we had to buy the wood. That didn't happen - we bought the wood once already and his mistake caused the problem. We fired him.

In comes refinisher number 2. They installed the new floor and matched the stain pretty good. They buffed out the semigloss finish and applied a satin - but from a different company and it didn't match the satin that was already down. They tried two times before I agreed to let them use this sheen on the entire main floor. The work is ok but not stellar. I can find pieces of hair sealed in the floor, they didn't get any of the paint chips out..

With all the furniture back in the rooms it is not so noticeable but it does still kinda bug me because it's not to the standard I wanted. I am too much of a perfectionist and would never have been ok with the work these guys were satisfied with.

I can't speak for you and depending on how bad their work is, I would insist they redo the job - it is at their expense as well. Another option would be to take the discount and use it to have another refinisher come in and fix the problem. If you are thinking of this route then get an estimate for the work so you can ask for this amount of discount ... or, with hold an equal amount in final payment.

Floors were a huge headache for us and put us way behind schedule ( because the thinset had to dry) but don't give in just yet if you are not satisfied with the work.

From your description it really doesn't seem like something you should or could live with so I vote with suzie2003. Just so you know, I have taken discounts instead of replacement or repair on things with our kitchen but I don't think this would be the place I would do that.

If you haven't joined the discussion on decison fatigue you might want to take a look.

Do the floors right, you won't regret it.
I know you are tired, worn out and ready to move in,
but your floors will look awesome when done correctly.
Thinking of you and wishing these floor dudes knew
how to use the Bonakemi traffic. That stuff rocks.
Keeping my fingers crossed that this all works
out great for you.
~boxerpups

I'd only take the discount if it covered someone else fixing it properly (re-sanded and re-applied). I would not trust him to fix something he already showed he can't handle.

I can also offer my sympathy. It is too common to get shoddy work these days.....

I'm in agreement with getting it fixed now. I hope you can get this settled. I think if you emotionally step back for a bit, use some prayer, etc, you'll find your direction in handling this situation. We have to be calm to truly access our creative problem solving selves.

I agree don't let it go and do have the same contractor fix it -- not likely a different one will be available. But I would type out each and every problem describing specifically how I wanted it resolved. Then I would calculate and itemize how much money their screw up cost ME in terms of time, gas, materials, delay in moving, etc., and I would present them with that figure rather than a percentage of the total project cost. If later the project were completed to my satisfaction, I might not even deduct that amount, but there is NO WAY final payment should ever be paid if you aren't satisfied w/ the results.

Smokie, I'm sorry you are having to go through this mess. Please take a deep breath, muster your strength, and don't settle just to be done.

I was in similar shoes this week. We've been in the actual work (excluding planning) of our reno for 10 months, and it's been very difficult for us. Our drywall sub didn't texture the ceiling correctly in half of the main area of the house. I'm so tired and weary, and I've been dealing with the very recent death of my beloved kitty. Since I've been going through the motions of life without much thought to details since then, I almost let the ceiling problem go just so we could get closer to done. I didn't want yet another construction headache. Instead, I pulled myself together a bit and spoke to the drywallers. I'm very glad I didn't just let it go. I know I would have always regretted not fixing it every time I saw the ceiling.

You can do this! Don't let the floor go as is. I'm not sure if I would trust the same guys to try to fix it if they've been idiots up to this point. You'll never regret going through the hassle of getting it fixed. There's a great chance that you'll regret NOT getting it fixed.

I agree with Breezy- muster up that strength and fight for what you want.

I've always been taught you have to build a strong foundation.....Those floors are the foundation that you build the rest of your dream on. Don't settle for less.
If you paid for it to look great, then it should.

As I am about to refinish floors while living in the house, I can tell you, do it now- it's not fun when you are there!

breezy- so sorry to hear about your cat :(

Thank you all so much for the support, I can't tell you how wonderful it is to be able to share (yet another) problem and have you all read between the lines to the bottom line of just how exhausting this whole thing is. I am exhausted.

It's interesting that not a single person said just live with it/they're only floors.

Is it really that important? Or is the principle of the thing? Who am I hurting--them or myself--to make them redo it? I want to move on with my life.

Without going into detail, I've suffered several pretty devastating events over the last 16 months during our remodel. Some of them have incapacitated me emotionally and I have not been able to attend to things as I normally would have. Ironically, I have been posting responses to folks here about their kitchen remodels all along-it's been my sanity-saving escape to help someone find a faucet or countertop or tile or whatever.

A blessing to these various losses is that they've given me a lot of perspective during a time when I tended to have none (a whole house reno!)

Earlier on, I did have the contractor redo things to my perfectionistic standards and now by the end I am pretty much: "who cares??" It's not a job loss, a cancer diagnosis, an overdose, a death --who really cares in the big picture? In this case-it's just floors. Some people don't even have a floor to sleep on.

The part I care about is these guys thinking that they can do sh#$ty work and that I'll just hand over the money and say "thanks!" That is the part that makes me want to fight this--the principle of the thing--not so much the sh#$ty final product. What is wrong with me?

I did read through that decision fatigue article now and I'm more convinced than ever that these guys absolutely count on this measurable phenomenon of wearing us down until we're only concerned about preserving our sanity/mental health and just accept whatever crap work they've done.

It reminds me of this crazy-making conversation I had with my contractor a couple months ago where I called him on the fact that they had built--several--of our kitchen cabinets incorrectly:

littlesmokie: "Contractor, these don't match the drawings/dimensions I signed off on."

contractor: (blank stare) "oh, those got changed, remember?"

littlesmokie: "No, they weren't changed, they always needed to be xyz to fit our stuff. I measured everything."

ContractoR: "well those dimensions were crossed out on my copy that we built from."

littlesmokie: "What are you talking about? I never crossed anything off and I didn't sign off on anything different, they were to be built to the specs I signed off on."

contractor: "well, I don't know what to tell you, I had them crossed out."

littlesmokie: (bursting into tears and whimpering) "I'm entitled to have the cabinets I signed off on built!"

ugh

I actually just discovered this week that another cabinet bank was built incorrectly (I hadn't measured that one, so didn't catch it with the others.) What is the point of having drawings--that I agonized over, of course--if they're just going to build whatever? And now we're all done--do I make them rip that out and redo it? Or do I live with it? Who is that hurting, them or me?

You know, I am a strong capable person in my regular life, but this remodel--and, I suppose life itself--has really knocked me down lately.

I don't really want to invest anymore energy in this remodel than I already have. What is that saying, I can be right or I can be happy...? I'm not sure yet what I'm going to do, but the clock is ticking and I have to make a decision. Perhaps tomorrow after I've had a glucose filled breakfast (read the decision fatigue article, everyone!)

My heart goes out to you, littlesmokie. Based on the few non-reno issues you hinted at going through, I can tell you've been put through the life wringer during an already stress-filled time of renovation. I'm so sorry for that.

You are correct that this is just a floor. But it is also YOUR floor being paid for with YOUR money. Therefore, for you today, at this moment, it is NOT just a floor. The floor is important. You will see these mistakes everyday. And I don't think you're hurting anyone to make them redo it. Someday when you've healed a bit inside from the recent events you'll probably regret not having the floors fixed.

I don't think the saying about being right or being happy applies to this case at all. That's for someone dealing in an inter-personal relationship where keeping one's mouth shut for the greater relationship outcome can be wise. These floor guys aren't in an inter-personal relationship with you. They are your employees that you are paying to do the job they signed up for as being capable of doing. You are their boss. Don't let them get away with not doing their job but still getting paid as if they had.

You can do this!!!

And your contractor? I recommend sending Marcolo's dogs after him. ;)

I feel like the poster child for bad floor finishing. In essence, the first contractor tried 3 times. They screwed up the original sanding, claimed it was the fault of the flooring, tried 3 different finishing attempts using different products leaving serious crap in the finish every time. We got a little change back and tried it ourselves.

We did a screening - we're actually great at that! I love floor buffers. We were able to remove half of the crappy contractors sanding marks. Our limited skills improved a lot because we got to try it 3 times. It has come in handy upstairs as those floors are waxed.

Laid down Bona amberseal - it is a very easy product to work with so if they blew that, I wouldn't have any confidence in them. We found Traffic to be very hard to apply evenly. We didn't get any crap in the finish, but we couldn't make it even. After watching someone who knew what they were doing, we probably could now.

We some fear and trepidation, we hired the number one recommended Angies list contractor and let them do the kitchen, fix the rest of the first floor where a very pretty floor had been botched by the PO. We went away for a long weekend while they worked.

The main floors turned out amazing and the kitchen became good. We did have call-backs, but every time the contractor was great - pleasant, didn't argue, just came out and fixed it. After we agreed that the floor was good, they sent a nice letter and sent some cash because they felt bad about the callbacks.

(((Oh, gosh, I am sorry to hear of your stressors amid your remodel.)))

But your elaboration of the matter got me thinking about how prevalent incompetency, laziness, and lack of pride in one's work has become in our society today. I see it everywhere...from deli counter workers who can't add or subtract in their head to landscapers who plant shrubs where they don't belong to doctors who are burnt out from robotically filling out health insurance forms, to lawyers and realtors and bankers who unnecessarily complicate the hell out of everything.

>>>>> I agree, it's the principle of the matter.

I think it's heinous too, that we're not tapping into the young talent of potential future craftsman. Somehow learning a trade plays second-fiddle to a liberal-arts degree and a desk job. In my day every young man was encouraged to learn and possess some sort of hands-on skill, regardless of his family's socio-economic status. And EVERY self-respecting boy carried a pocket-knife so he could at least pretend he was a man.

If the boy was exceptionally physically-oriented we said he was "all boy" or "full of piss and vinegar" and gave him a hammer or a shovel or whatever to put that energy to work and he was patted on the back for how well he could hammer, how well he could shovel.

But Nope...today we label these type hyperactive, get him and IEP and dose 'em up with Adderall instead.

Cripes..No wonder we're outsourcing jobs to India, no wonder China all but owns us!

But forgive me...I have really digressed...

You are right...it is the principle of the matter. But given all you've said...I think you should consider accepting the floors "AS IS" if that will eliminate stress in your life.

JUST DON'T MAKE THAT FINAL PAYMENT or AT LEAST HOLD BACK A PORTION OF THAT PAYMENT with a letter of explanation as to why. (Take photos, too.) And forget spending money on your lawyer -- just type it up and have it notarized if it makes you feel better.

I mean, what's the contractor gonna do? Sue you? Ha! It'll cost him way more to take you to court than it will to just eat his errors -- you can be sure of that!

breezy-thanks for everything you said. Have I said lately how much I love this forum?

I forgot to mention-the floor guys were a subcontractor hired by our GC (they would not have been my choice-ironically, upfront I told my husband the one sub I had a bad feeling about was the floor guy!) and they have NOT been paid. They have offered a pittance---not enough to hire someone else to redo them--- for us to just live with it, which infuriated me. (I haven't yet responded to this offer, I'm too busy seething.)

I've really taken all of your comments to heart the last few days and I don't think I am going to settle/let them get away with this. The floors--like oldhousegal said--are one of the foundational aspects of the house.

I have been pondering a compromise...make them redo the white oak flooring which looks the worst and live with the fir (the fir will by nature get beat up/bruised soon enough, probably blurring those spots!)

BUT

bmorepanic---your comment that the amberseal is DIY user-friendly gives me extreme pause about letting these professionals have another shot at our floor. The mistakes they made with it were pure carelessness--small splotches and puddles of it. There is no way--unless their sight was failing--that they could not have seen that their application sucked. The sanding job also could have been better.

As others of you have said, frankly, I don't trust them to redo it, but I also do not expect that they will agree to not get paid for their finishing so I can hire someone else to fix them. This could get ugly.

Here's a funny one for you. I actually joined Angie's List to find a "highly recommended" flooring contractor (as was suggested above--thank you) and this guy had great ratings overall. (Why me, Lord, why ? LOL) Interestingly, his negative ratings were from customers who weren't happy with the job but had already paid---he refused to take their calls and/or come back to address any problems. Those are the comments you need to pay attention to people, because you may not be one of the ones where everything goes off without a hitch. (And this is why you never pay until the work is done to your satisfaction!)

But your elaboration of the matter got me thinking about how prevalent incompetency, laziness, and lack of pride in one's work has become in our society today. I see it everywhere...from deli counter workers who can't add or subtract ... to doctors who are burnt out from robotically filling out health insurance forms

Can I tell you a freaky story whose moral is, "trust your gut"? Ok, without going into too much personal detail, a couple of years ago I accompanied my husband to a doctor's appointment. The doctor was recommended by my own awesome doctor and was highly regarded in the area. It went like so:

- Doctor meets with us and examines my husband
- Doctor says, X is fine
- We go away; I have a persistent feeling that I just wasn't satisfied with that doctor. The phrase in my head was, "He was on autopilot." In other words, he wasn't truly paying attention to the individual patient in front of him.
- I therefore persuade my husband to go to a different doctor (who I had found online and who just gave me a really good feeling) and have the exact same examination done over again.
- My husband gives in to my pleading and has the exact same examination re-done by this other doctor.
- Other doctor says, "I'm not sure if X is fine or not. Go have this test done."
- Test comes back: very early cancer!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
- Because it was caught so early, my husband is cured without even having to do chemo or anything.
- When we join Angie's List later I log on to leave a glowing review of this other doctor, and I find that someone else has also left a review that says, "This doctor found a cancer that another doctor had missed." OMG!!!! What a doctor!!!

Obviously the other part of this story is that I wrote a devastating letter to Autopilot Doctor #1 telling him what happened and telling him to BE CAREFUL and never let that happen again, and I left a horrible review of him on Angie's List and told my doctor about him (she was horrified and stopped recommending him).

Anyway. Like I was saying: Trust your gut. There are very competent people in the world and also very incompetent people, and your gut can help you tell them apart.

That's wonderful news, ideagirl2. Puts everything in perspective.

Still wouldn't let those guys off the hook for shoddy work though because the next person might get even worse work from them.

The reason that folks don't DIY a job and hire a professional is that they don't have the time or the skill to complete a certain job. If you got amateur results from a professional, then it's time for him to learn that perhaps he isn't suited to being a professional. It's not having perfectionistic standards to want a floor that looks better than you yourself could have done if you'd drunk a couple of beers and screwed up your courage to work with power tools.

And yes, it's exhausting to have to have conflict in your life when you have so many other issues going on. But, here's a real eye-opener. It is also immensely empowering to gird up your loins and head into battle! It makes you feel great that you stuck to your guns and insisted that a pro do a pro's job. In all of the trials and hassles posted here on the Kitchen Forum, I don't think there has ever been posted a regret that someone had something redone correctly. On the other hand, there have been plenty of posts from people that still see flaws in something and wish they had insisted it be corrected.

If you are just too spent to deal with everything, get someone who has fresh eyes and a loud voice to come in and have the conversation with your contractor. You have to have a friend or family member that is, well, pushy and opinionated! LOL! Every family has one. It's irritating when it's directed at you, but it can sure be useful when it's used in your behalf. Heck, there probably is a Forum member close to you that would be really excited to be able to kick butt on your behalf! You've got a great resource at your disposal here, so if you need help to get through this, all you have to do is ask.

I've been wanting to see the Portland Rose Garden for some time, so if you can't find someone local, I'd be happy to drive the 2200 miles, yell at a contractor or two, fill my wagon with some choice plants from Rogue Valley, and drive home. I drove further to see the Soundgarden reunion tour, so what the heck! :)

Paraphrasing a little, something a very sweet-faced little old nun told me when I was a little child, "Every time you nail a railroad spike up a contractor's ***, Baby Jesus smiles.

OK. Maybe paraphrasing a lot. But still.

A floor is not a little thing. It is a very big surface, and you look at it 100% of the time, except when you are sleeping or passed out on it.

Don't accept bull. But also, don't forget your contract is with your GC, and so is your beef.

I haven't reno'd yet so maybe this is naive/stupid, but why is it up to you to deal with these idiots? As Marcolo said, your contract is with your GC and that makes this problem his problem. It's up to him to get this resolved to your satisfaction. And if you don't think these yahoos can do that, tell your GC. Once you enumerate all the problems, I would think that he would agree with you and find someone competent to fix your floor.

I'm so sorry you're having to deal with this when you obviously have other personal issues weighing on your mind. But please, please don't let them take advantage of your fatigue to put undeserved cash in their pockets. You have my positive thoughts and prayers that you will find the inner strength to deal with this.

another vote for fix it now. i moved into my house before refinishing my floors and it was a huge mistake. i will never do that again. if you even remotely think you will want to have it fixed, do it now while you are not living there.

I did not mean to let this thread drop. I want to say again, thank you all so much for your support.

Greendesigns, that is probably the nicest offer of help from a perfect stranger I've ever received. And if you ever do roadtrip near Portland, hit Heirloom Roses in St Paul Oregon. :)

Update---I did insist they refinish the floors. The GC told me the flooring guy agreed to "take care of the floors" which when pushed I discovered they were going to "repair" (which they'd already claimed to have done) rather than "refinish." I expressed concern over this to GC.

They did the repairs last week. The spots are still there. :(

Many/most of the spots are greatly lessoned/gone, but the worst spots (the ones in front of the front door and an area in the dining room) are still visible. It was because of those two areas that I insisted upon getting the floors redone.

Obviously, I'm not happy and the GC knows this. (I'm sure the floor guy is not happy either because he's now invested another day on this job.) GC told me Thursday that he needed to talk to the floor guy and see what our next step is and I've not heard back yet. I'm sure his next step will be to tell me to shove it.

You all understand--this is so exhausting--this has already delayed us moving in for several weeks, we missed our deadline of being in the house before school started because we made the floors a priority. And they're still not fixed!

I gave floor guy 2 opportunities to fix it... what would you all do at this point? I am now done-stick a fork in me. I will live with those ridiculous spots--that never should have been there, had he done a careful job in the first place--but I refuse to pay this guy as if he did a good job. He did not do a good job and has shown he is not able to fix it.

Does this seem reasonable...I am thinking that I should pay floor guy for materials and installation, but not the line item for finishing? That gives me the option to get them refinished properly later (I know it's a hassle) but then I am not seething that I've paid for/accepted an unacceptable job. What do you think?

i think you need to be credited for everything, should not have to pay a dime and your floors need to be re-done before you move in. trust me, do not wait to do until later. i moved into a house that way - NEVER again. you think it is a hassle now? think about once you are in the house and want to do them - where to move all your belongings, pets, what to do about the poly odor? bite the bullet, do it now, you will be so glad you did.

That's a great option you can take since they put a separate line item for finishing. Make sure you don't pay the GC's markup on the finishing either since it's his sub and his responsibility to get the floors done right. If you really don't have confidence that the finishing will be right then go this route.

Flwrs n co - Unfortunately many GC's don't have the same ideas we do about the quality of their subs work. They focus on getting the overall job completed and not so much on quality because they want to get paid. It's a huge problem that you are paying a GC and still have to make sure you get what you want.

steff 1 is right and that has been my biggest learning experience in remodeling. I thought you hired a GC to represent you/ensure quality/manage subcontractors. But a GC is not truly "on your side." You still have to supervise your GC because they are more concerned with keeping things moving along (getting paid) than catching/correcting mistakes.

On our first walk through 18 months ago, the GC revealed things that had not been built to the drawings and asked whether it would be ok. In every instance, I said no, and made them redo it. Do you think he ever pointed out any other mistakes in the course of the remodel?

I have had to follow along after every phase of work, asking questions, measuring/checking, which is impossible and absurd because I don't always know what I'm looking for/ensuring. I have caught many, many mistakes. Either my GC didn't catch them or he didn't reveal them and tried to get them past me. I'm not sure which is worse.

Any other thoughts on the floors...?

Another thought ....Get an estimate on the refinishing from another shop. You can even do this on the phone, describe the floor and the work and ask for a rough per square foot estimate then mark it up 15% to cover contingencies.

Let your GC know what the estimate is and negotiate even more money off than the line item on the contract because it will cost you more to get them redone in the future.

Quick though as I have to run. Please don't pay for the floor and accept that lack of quality. I'm glad you stood up and had them "fix" (LOL) it again. Insist that it is still not acceptable and have someone else make it right. I agree with Babushka, that you don't want to try to refinish the floors later. The hassle will delay you.

About GCs...yes, you still have to supervise them. Yes, you still have to check everything that's been done. Check every measurement, etc. I'm the GC on our whole house reno for several reasons. One of which is I felt, in the beginning when we had a GC, that I was already doing so much work to manage the project. You pay them so much to be in charge, that you expect them to be in charge!

Take one last deep breath, and go forward one more time. You're so close to being done!