I'd wait. It doesn't sound like you love it!

No Squirrel. I do love it. It's the best we've found--actually the only one--and I've been looking for ages. Literally months and months.

The tone of my letter to the store owner is so he doesn't know how much. So what do you think?

I was going by your saying you were 'dubious.' Maybe I need to pull the dictionary out!

I'm the wrong one to ask about your letter :) The only thing that really stuck a bit with me was the part saying 'which would include the work that needs to be done.' I think I'd just make the offer, as, 'we'd like to offer you a total of ________' since the agreement is already to repair and clean the rug. It just doesn't sit well in my mind. I think I'd also eliminate the words 'based on their comments.' You might want to pad it out a bit more so the offer paragraph isn't quite so abrupt then, though.

If he's interested, he'll probably ask for more than your offer, so I guess you need to work that in to the top price you'd be willing to offer.

Try to imagine yourself shipping it back or deciding against it and see how you feel.

HTH!

Another thing. I know someone who sells fine rugs and they allow people to 'try' them in their homes. Of course, if there's any damage while there they own it. But, I'm thinking he shouldn't be rushing you into a decision. It's probably pretty typical to take them on trial or loan in order to make a decision.

It's always best to negotiate with someone in person so you can see their face and watch the reaction. I would also be very gentle and first ask him if he can "do any better" on the price because of the additional cost for restoration etc. Then see the response. You can always go back and tell him what you are most comfortable with.

It always strikes me that people who are competitive on something will put it down and say it's too expensive while having nothing to lose and only something to gain.

You and your DH need to live with the rug -- not the local rug person. I couldn't care what that person thinks.

Then ask yourself whether this is THE rug. Everyone is different but I feel that if you put it down and if it looks like it's always been there it's right.

I looked for a very long time, nearly a year, and in the end I brought 2 rugs into the house and put each one of them down as well. There was no question. It just went click.

Do you hear the click?

And, ultimately, if he does not lower the price what do you want to do?

Good luck! I thought of you the other day when I was making a video of an old kirman with a similar colored background over at Sothebys carpet sale.

I see what you mean Squirrel. You don't need a dictionary. What I wrote was ambiguous.

To clarify, I meant that I was dubious about whether DH loves the rug. I do love it, and I've heard the click, which is why I'm hesitant to risk losing it. Am I willing to pay too much for it? Hard to say but probably. (Please don't call me wasteful.)

It does look right in our house--or as right as a rug could look in a room full of boxes.

I do feel like I'm being rushed. The rug arrived late Wednesday. I showed it to one rug guy and the designer yesterday. The rug store sent me an email this morning asking me for an update on my decision.

I appreciate your comments and will mull it over. In the meantime, I may email him briefly without making a commitment either way. And now I'm bringing it to another store to see what that expert thinks.

I'd appreciate any other ideas. Thanks!

btw, rococogurl, I can't negotiate with the rug guy because he's in Los Angeles. So in that case, which is better: by phone or by email?

I'm such a wimp when it comes to my personal negotiations.

Probably by phone, imo. At least you can get a better impression. Emails and such can be ambiguous too.

Not much more than a day? Very rushed. I'd ask for some time with it and see what he says.

Well, I'd consider the rug's enjoyment value rather than it's monetary value (something most of us wouldn't really know anyway :) But I think you can probably look at it and tell whether it's good quality or not. Espec after all your rug hunting!

Maybe just acknowledge his email, that the rug arrived safely, and ask that you have some time to live with it?

Just came back from another rug store and am more confused now. This person said they don't sell too many of that kind of rug; they're more into Tibetan contemporaries. They said that they thought the rug was in good shape and it was a fair price. Of course, they also said it was of the period marked--and even the seller concedes it's not that old.

I think I'll be less agressive with the seller. I don't want to lose it and it appears that I'm not getting ripped off. And it's certainly not a bargain but I don't care about that. I'll focus, as SH says, on the enjoyment value.

Thanks for your help! And wish me luck!

I think you may gain more leeway by saying first that you like it - people like to hear that I think. (you don't have to say how much you love it though ;-) But, that you got a couple 'expert' opinions that the price was too high, and would he be willing to accept X for it. I would call him on the phone and tell him that he can think about it and get back to you.

Good luck! Sounds like you've found your rug! Yay!!

Maybe he's pricing a bit higher than some because he's had it a while and incurred some expense shipping it to a few homes, storage, etc.

Your neighbors come over to look at the rug. They say, "Omigod, we've been looking for years, and that's the perfect rug for us!" They know that you're ambivalent, and they offer you $6000 cash for it, right here right now.

How do you feel? How does your husband feel?

If you use the original draft I'd drop the following:
***The designer saw it yesterday and thought it was fine, and thought she would probably be able to make it work** and ***I like the rug but both rug people thought the price was high--and, unfortunately, my husband agrees***

The rug is $1000 too high because it's in L.A.! I have Turkish rugs I purchased when we lived there and had them appraised 5 years later. We paid too much!!
If you're a good negotiator then calling them may work, but from my experience these 'guys' can be tough to deal with. Been there!

Make the offer and wait. Since it's been purchased and returned a few times then he may be ready to sell it. NEVER admit how much you love it or he won't budge on the price.

Honestly, these guys deal so much he can probably read you 500 miles away -- with n'ere a phone call or an email, lol. I'd just be upfront about the appraisals and try to get it a bit lower. True, in LA, he's probably paying through the nose for a little piece of real estate there. And, it's somewhat of an original, right?

Thanks everyone. Yes, I know you should start with a positive before you say anything negative, so I'll keep that in mind. But I won't be gushy.

It is definitely an original and would be hard to find another like it, or one that would work as well. (But it's kind of like eBay auctions: you panic and worry but, even if you lose an item, you'll eventually find something like it.) I'm trying to imagine what it would be like to lose the rug but am sort of numb at this point. I started looking for rugs even before we closed on this house a year ago so it has been very mind-numbing if not mind-altering. (And DH? I really don't think he cares up to a certain point. He wants me to make a decision and move on.)

I will call him the seller this morning and feel out the situation. Thanks again for all your help.

btw, a Sotheby's rug sale? Where? When? Can you post photos!?!?!? I think a part of me will always love looking at rugs. That's not so bad, is it?

lol ... good luck!

When we first saw the rug and questioned the price, he said there was no room for movement. (It might be on consignment, but I doubt it because he also mentioned that he's had it for a few years and that it's gone to homes and come back before.)

Hi Meg,

If you knew the above prior to accepting taking it in on trial, then I honestly feel you are being disingenous at this point trying to negotiate a lower price by using the reasons you state in your opening.

It is unfair for anyone to "assume" they know the reason the dealer has the carpet set at a certain price. The fact remains that you knew the price going in.

I will tell you, personally speaking, if I had a rug out on trial, and the person knew the set price then came back with "Mr. Rug Dealer X thinks it's too high" or any other such comments, I would very politely say if you are not interested, then please ship back my rug.

You must understand that other people's opinions do not have weight to someone that has the object for sale. In fact, it will sour me instantly to working with you.

The point is Meg, you have the rug, you like it. Be honest and upfront. Is the dealer including a pad? If not you could ask if he might include it in the price. That's pretty standard. I will often throw that in if I can't move on the price tag.

Here is the viewpoint we're waiting for! :)

So, hmmm. I thought negotiations were just an ongoing thing throughout the course of a sale. He isn't obligated to come down if it's not worth it to him. I think Meg went in knowing the price, but also has every right to assess it's retail value and question the person she's dealing with. Most people don't know from Adam who or what they're dealing with, with these things. And, unfortunately, many a salesman knows this. She also may know her local people better and trust their judgment. I don't feel it's really fair to expect people to go into things blindly. They're spending quite a bit on the rug.

I guess I know what you're saying but of course sales people hold on to their prices, preferring to thru to the very end. It's a foreign land to most people, I think, and they need to do-and-learn along the way. I sure wouldn't want to pay all that money based solely on the word of the store owner or salesperson. In today's world, that's simply foolish, imo.

I don't think 'Meg' has been going into this is a deceptive way at all. Simply feeling her way along and not wanting to get ripped off or taken advantage of by someone she doesn't know.

I'm saying all this as part of the learning experience, not to be combative :) This is how I feel as a layman and a customer.

I learned early in my negotiating life that you never blame someone else in a negotiation (other people think it's too high priced). If you want a deal, be frank, honest, and make an offer. Don't use other people as an excuse, as it just opens up other areas for him to argue. Don't belittle the product either. You just set him off at that point and it won't help at all.

I'd be brief, and do it on the phone, with a follow up email summerazation if he agrees. I'd say, "I like the rug, but I only feel comfortable paying XXX for it". If he says no, let it go if that's actually how you feel. If he says ok, then you're lucky, since you already tried to knock down the price and it wasn't working.

I always know I can win a negotiation that is started as yours is because it's obvious (from your tone) that you aren't making the decision anyway. If I want to sell you something I have to sell it to your husband, since you take no part in the decision making (that might not be the truth but it's the vibe you put out when you try to negotiate like that). If yu want to negotiate, be firm, and take ownership of YOUR Role in the negotiations, and you'll have a much better chance at winning the game :)

Squirrel, you missed my point entirely.

When we first saw the rug and questioned the price, he said there was no room for movement.

My entire response was based on that one statement.

IF you are told the price is "firm" which is dealer speak for don't ask me to come down, then you go in with your eyes wide open.

This has nothing to do with whom she trusts.

Wanting a lower price that what was stated as firm is just as disingenous as if the dealer called her up and said, he wanted to raise the price because he found out it should be higher.

Sorry, but a price quoted is just that. If it wasn't quoted as firm, that's another story. But best to get the facts straight before you agree to terms.

Thanks for your insight tryintogrow,

I guess when I saw it originally at the store and I asked about the price, I thought that the rug was in such bad shape that I wasn't interested. Then I had him tell me what was wrong, and send photos, and I should have discussed the price then, but thought I'd wait to see if it looked good in our house before bothering to negotiate--but I can see your point. The seller also knew that I was having rug people up here look at the rug, so I don't think he's going to be surprised by my comments.

Also, after the only conversation about the price, the seller also conceded that the rug was not 100 years old, but closer to 50 years old.

Asking him to throw in the rug pad is a good idea, as is asking him to hand-wrap the edges rather than merely fixing the torn areas.

Again, thanks for your opinions. It's always helpful to hear the "other side."

Guess I'm a slow typer--and a bad negotiater.

Yes, he did say there was no room for movement but it was kind of a throw-away conversation. We had it almost in passing and as an after-thought.

I appreciate all your viewpoints. You're right igoo, I shouldn't be blaming my husband or making it seem like it's his decision. I just hate attributing these things to me. Or to my mind, if I can point to other, more knowledgeable people, then my wanting to negotiate has a valid basis.

All very good points. I'll have to mull it over some more.

I think it will not ultimately depend on anything you do or say, Meg. I think it will depend on the seller. IOW: how badly does he want/need to sell the rug? What else must he do to it? Will you have it repaired or does it go back to him and must he deal with that?

If he's had it for a long time -- regardless of whether it's been out on approval or not -- then his cost may be lower or he needs to get his $$ out of it. You have no way of knowing. T2G makes a good point about the pad, which would be nice, but I don't even think that's the point.

I don't know if this will help you but a dealer I spoke with this week, who has 30 years of experience says she won't ever guarantee age, except in certain circumstances where there is documentation or when you can absolutely see the age due to the size of the knots.

Some of the value on this stuff is scarcity, some is size, some is auction prices set for whatever type of rug it is (you haven't said), some is age, some style/origin, color, condition etc. Just this week I saw rugs go for huge prices at an auction even if the condition wasn't so hot.

Then there is the issue of old rugs and specialists. I didn't want a new rug and set about finding a dealer who was well known, highly respected and who was a specialist in old rugs. I studied up on my own -- it was hardly a blind item. I know, in retrospect, I didn't overpay because I've watched the auction prices for rugs from the same area, similar size, age and condition. Ultimately, that's the best way to judge. This stuff is expensive whether it's new or old and you want to be sure you're paying a fair price.

I would try to decide how much you want it and what you will do if he refuses to lower the price. Will you send it back? Will you be sorry? Or will you go for it?

I still don't feel there's any harm in calling to ask if he could do better on it. But I don't see why he should -- you have it on your floor.

And lastly, if your local people whom you seem to trust are so good, I must ask why they couldn't get you a rug of this quality for the $1000 less than the price of this one?

I'm not trying to disparage anyone but dealers work in market segments. Anyone who isn't working in that segment can say they like something or not, or comment on condition but it's unlikely any other opinion will be very informed.

I have a completely seperate dealer, actually a few, I'd go to for Tibetan rugs. If I took a Tibetan to my dealer for an opinion I know he would tell me what he said when I asked him about the value of a Chinese rug I eventually sold: I don't deal in that and don't know.

If this is proving so difficult for you, would your DH speak to the guy?

Actually, as far as negotiation is concerned, having your DH as the unseen other partner is very powerful. It is called 'appeal to a higher authority.' You see it used every time you buy a car in a dealership when the salesman scurries back to confer with his manager. You never get to see the manager directly and the salesman implies he is advocating for you.

You can use this by using your Dh as the higer authority. He is not comfortable with the price, quality, age, or whatever. You, of course, are the reasonable one, just trying to get a wonderful rug for your home. :0)

By the way, a well trained salesperson can counter your appeal to a higher authority with ease. (I know how to work with it. wink, wink.)

Decide how much you want to spend and go for it. I hope you end up with the rug of your dreams.

Here is a link that might be useful: Creative Soul

Tryin, I really didn't miss your point at all. Maybe rug dealing is different, but to me and a lot of others, the perception is that salesmen do negotiate prices on things like that and, of course, they are trying to get their ultimate price. One might even think that the asking price is usually higher than what they want because it's part of the business that they have to negotiate to actually sell the rug for what they want. I would expect to hear what he said but, depending, might not hear it as final.

I think their conversation is something we really don't know anything about. As Meg just noted, it was just a passing and casual statement and not really discussed at all. I would probably take that as sales stuff too. He didn't actually say he's selling it for someone else and they will not budge.

I think how much one is really willing to pay would be more apparent to them once they saw it in their house and that portion of its value to them is able to be fully appreciated and assessed. Although, going in, certainly you'd have to be thinking about his stated price as what you might have to pay if you find you must have it. It sounds like maybe its price was considered a bit high from Meg's end.

Maybe once you get to the trial period, all the details of the contract and its price and terms are supposed to be finalized? I'd think that would be made very clear, though.

Personally, I'm not much of a negotiator but if I found the rug to be appraised for less by other rug dealers, or my own opinion was that it was priced a bit high, I'd want to know why. Be it a third party seller or his losses, etc. Of course, they can just make something up :) I probably wouldn't pay a lot more, even if I loved it, if I thought I was just being taken advantage of.

Its true value is what people are willing to pay for it. Something that would always seem part of the discussion over the course of a private sale, esp as a piece of art.

I guess what's important is the reason for placing a counter offer.

While I understand what you are saying SH, if a dealer in any field has a price tag on an object and it says FIRM, I respect the fact that they have written those four letters for the sole benefit of me, the shopper to indicate no negotiating.

My comments above were based solely on the information Meg provided in her OP. "There is no room for movement." The fact that she now says it was in passing doesn't change things.

There is a huge difference between a rug dealer in a brick and mortar store, and one that is selling at the flea market. Why would anyone assume that prices are negotiable for the dealer working from a storefront? That almost borders on insulting. Same is true for thinking that you try something out in your home then assess what you are *willing* to pay for it. Do you feel it should work that way for furniture, paintings, and other home goods? Do you get wear a new coat for several days then announce to the merchant what *you* are willing to pay for it?

The nice thing about dealers who allow you to try a rug in your home, is that if you don't care for it in your surroundings, you can return it. No cost.

Meg, if there is one thing I can't stress enough, it's to be upfront and honest. There's a difference as you know between a discussion and a confrontation. Armed with other appraisals in meaningless to a dealer IMO. I don't care what any other dealer says about one of my rugs. I own it, he doesn't, and if you want it, well, that's MY price IYKWIM.

So you call him up, say he mentioned in "passing" as you state that there was no room for movement, and you now regret not asking what exactly was included in the price, a full repair, a mend job, pad. "I'm embarrassed to say I neglected to cover those things prior to accepting it on trial, so can we clear up what exactly you meant and what is included in the cost?"

Easy as pie ;-) No confrontation, gives you some wiggle room since you honestly seem unsure of the meaning of his comment and there was some confusion (on his part?) about the age.

Just remember the *I* - puts the blame on you, which will make the person you are negotiating with all the more receptive.

Just meant *willing* to pay for it as her own personal value it has to her, price-wise. I pass a lot of things by because I'm just not willing to pay that much -- not worth it to me personally or I think it's over-valued in someone else's view.

I agree, I take a price tag to mean it's price. I've also been surprised to hear how some things are negotiated when I had no idea that was done. So, often the listed price is actually a padded price so they'll get what they really do want for something. Too bad so many games are played. I've seen and also heard about them first-hand in the 'board' rooms, so I know it's done :)

I guess I was under the impression from this thread and others that people are negotiating rug prices, just like with fabrics and furniture in the design business. Remember the recent rug thread -- the salesperson came down $1K without even blinking an eye. I hear pricing being negotiated all the time, I guess. Know nothing of the rug business itself and I see nothing insulting about someone asking if the price is firm or whether the seller is interested in selling the rug for a price the buyer would be willing to pay. The seller just says -- no can do and that final. Often when you walk away from something, a salesman will offer a better price, too. Who knows where this guy is with the rug.

I think most jobs are 'insulting'! if you look at it that way. All in a days work :)

I never use the 'my husband won't' or 'my husband doesn't like' lines as an excuse or negotiating ploy, in very large part due to this:

"Actually, as far as negotiation is concerned, having your DH as the unseen other partner is very powerful. It is called 'appeal to a higher authority.' You see it used every time you buy a car in a dealership when the salesman scurries back to confer with his manager. You never get to see the manager directly and the salesman implies he is advocating for you.

You can use this by using your Dh as the higer authority."

YUCK!!!!! My husband is not my 'higher authority'. I find it condescending and demeaning to both of us to even think that way, much less use it in negotiating anything.

Sorry if I sound harsh but I really have a hot button about equal partners presenting any kind of boss/little woman image to anybody. Even if it saves some money, personally I'd prefer to be regarded as an intelligent adult who can make up her own mind including consulting with her partner as an equal, not as going to a higher authority. I don't scurry back to confer with my manager/husband. We sit down and discuss what we are going to do and decide *together*.

And aside from that I also think it is fundamentally disrespectful to your partner to turn him (or her) into a bad guy/meanie/ignoramus while you are the nice/polite/knowledgeable side of the team. Bleah.

Stepping off the soapbox now,
Ann

So, Ann, do you really think a car salesman is going back to 'confer' with his manager for real? Every time you offer a price or a counter?

Not a chance. It is a ploy. You, the buyer or seller, are denied the opportunity to negotiate with a perceived partner. YOu must go through the go-between. It is a form of good cop/bad cop.

I'm a firm believer in equality. I'm a partner, not the little woman. I've been a business woman, in my own business, by the way, for over twenty years. This particular sales/negotiation tactic is very powerful. It exists. And she can use it without having her husband too terribly involved in any of the decisions, i.e. she is still making the decisions.

At the very least, all of you will recognize this the next time it is used on YOU. (I've seen it used at the bookstore, a photography studio, Home Depot, a jewelry store, and a furniture store.) Anytime the salesperson disappears to confer with the manager, the potential exists for you to be negotiating with an unseen and unresponsive person. When it happens, you need to insist on negoiating with the unseen one, or get the salesperson guarantee he or she can make decisions.

I'm sincerely sorry you were offended.

Frankly, I'm also amused because telling a salesperson I need to talk to my husband or that dh has concerns does NOT make me less powerful. My husband finds it both annoying and amusing that when he goes to Home Depot and asks the loading guys not to scratch up the inside of the van, they ignore him. When he says lets not scratch up my wife's van, they are sooooo careful. Does it demean him to make a request with my name? No. It gets the service he wants.

Can we argue that our society in general needs lessons in respect and equality? Yes, of course. I can spend all of my time railing against injustice or I can teach a few and enjoy the rest of my life with the car, rug, and appliances of my choice.

Here is a link that might be useful: Creative Soul

I've now drafted three responses but they keep getting deleted. Grrr.

I, too, am sorry if I offended anyone, especially you Tryintogrow. It has been my experience though that rug sellers are willing to negotiate their prices, and that some even price their rugs fully expecting to reduce the price later.

My conversation with this rug seller took place when I wasn't interested in the rug because of its condition. Perhaps I should have brought up the price again when he confirmed that the rug "wasn't falling apart," but I truly thought the negotiation was a continuing process. I never even thought about the fact that it might end once they sent the rug out to see how it looked in my house--and apparently neither did the seller. (More on that in a sec.)

This seller knew I was going to have others examine the rug. How could he not think that part of their opinion would concern the price of the rug?

In any event, I talked with the seller today and he was happy to talk about price. He thought that I should talk about price, so he was not offended in the least. He can either offer me a 20% designer discount (in which case I have to have the work done myself) or we can meet in the middle somewhere, which is probably the best option. He is also including the rug. (Good call!)

As for using my DH as a negotation scapegoat, my previous draft stated things pretty close to what happyintexas just wrote. DH and I are partners; he is not my higher authority and I am not his little woman. Sometimes we both play good cop/bad cop when it's to our advantage. I don't think it hurts the feminist cause nor does it emasculate DH.

Thanks again everyone for your interesting opinions.

You doin' good, Meg! and I like your style :) It's really difficult for laymen to figure things out and navigate this crazy world :) Meeting half way sounds like a good idea, imo, too. And, just in thinking about things, I don't see referring to other people as a scapegoat, myself, unless you're putting it on them when it's not so. There are often others involved in the decision-making process and I don't think there's anything wrong with being upfront about that when it comes up. Of course, I'd probably flunk great negotiating, too, lol. But, keeping things as above-board as possible is what feels right to me. I'd just walk if someone was playing games with me.

Very good and educational thread!

Good luck with the repairs and such, and enjoy!!

Meg

I assure you I wasn't offended in any way whatsoever :-)

As I stated to SH, my response about what you *should* do was based on you one line: "there is no room for movement" that's all. My ensuing remarks were also based on that quote because if someone is told that, then takes an item on trial, they should be fully prepared to pay that amount, not think they hold the cards and can now start dickering with a firm price.

To clarify my earler point, negotiations often are part of purchasing a rug. If someone asks me to come down in price, I usually do so without hesitation (within reason of course!) it's good business. I'm happy the rug is sold, the customer is happy because they feel they've received a bargain=future business for me because they leave a happy camper.

Rococogurl used a line earlier up in this post that is the norm in any negotiation "can you do any better" it's a polite and respectful (IMO) way of asking if the price is negotiable.

With regard to him knowing you were going to show the rug to other dealers, I can only speak for myself, but it still has no influence whatsoever on me. We on the other side do a lot of appeasing and I too would say sure, show it around. But, I can tell you the dealers I know, KNOW their rugs and what another dealer says about it is strictly their opinion and holds no weight with what they are charging. How much confidence would someone have in me if I bowed to another dealer's estimation?

The bottom line is you spoke with him and came away happy. I had a hunch that would happen, which is why I encouraged you to be honest.

Purchasing rugs is difficult because many people aren't familiar with them or know what to look for. Bad dealers have given the industry a bad rep, but some of us are nice and don't bite ;-)

Good going Meg!