3 things I see right off:

I would make adjustments so that the pantry fronts are even and maybe combine them into one...and have them a little deeper in the process. You'll want to be able to stand in one spot and access both, at least I would, and I also think it'll be nicer looking as a bonus.

I would move the extra fridge to the kitchen end of the mud room.

I would rearrange the fridge/oven wall in the kitchen so you can get to the fridge from sink and stove without having your island be a barrier. The best spot is in the middle of that run, but I can understand your wanting the counter in the middle, so maybe swap oven/micro and fridge?

Would you want the trash closer to the DW? maybe you can swap the trash and drawers in the island. Another option if possible might be to swap the sink and DW, and have trash next to the sink instead of in the island.

I see a couple of other things than Rhome points out (I agree about the pantry space and swapping the wall oven and refrigerator):

1. Your trash is far away from both your cooktop and your sink. That would drive me nuts, as it means a walk to the trash for both cleanup and prep/cooking. I like to have my trash on one side of the sink for scraping plates and cutting boards, and the DW on the other side (which is closest to dish storage and the DR) for dropping my prep bowls and plates right into the DW when I'm done scraping and rinsing.

2. Less than 10' for your dining room width is mighty narrow. We have 11 1/2' width, and even that feels pretty squishy when we get everyone around our 42'' wide table.

They are right about the trash. Ours is in our island across from dw and sink, so I was thinking yours was similar, but not noticing that it is too far from the sink. Swapping it witht he 30" drawers in the island would probably do it.

I guess the issue is in the eye of the beholder, because we have a 42" table in an 11 1/2 ft wide dining room and I think we have TONS of room around the table. Another foot would be nice if you could get it, but I don't see a place to take it out of the kitchen. You won't have room for a buffet cabinet or anything, and I think you wouldn't want to be any tighter, but it's doable.

BTW, this is much neater (not so much going on) and more comfortable (more breathing and moving room) than your last plan.

also, you might want to go for 18" trash pullout, unless you plan on having another trash can elsewhere. I have 3 kids too and our trash/recycle fills up pretty quickly :-)

Have you/would you consider closing up the entrance to the office where you have it now and making the opening off the DR? You could do a nice French Door there or a pocket door. Seems like that is a long aisle to get back there and also wasted aisle space that might be put to better use. How wide is that space?

I agree with all the comments above, but will add that if you make the pantry in the kitchen wider or deeper, I would use rollouts. Another option would be to put in an additional tall cabinet in between the cabinet next to the cooktop and the pantry. You could use a tall with a rollout tower for additional pantry storage or a utility cabinet that can be a broom closet. Doesn't look like you have that planned in the mudroom, and you should have one somewhere (at least in my book).

In figuring how to arrange that fridge wall, I would consider the use and traffic flows. Which eating area will you be using most? If breakfast and snacks will move to the south, I would probably move the fridge to the center and not worry about the symmetry so much as balance and function. Consider glass doors on the uppers of that breakfast/snack area and create a visual balance with glass doors on either side of the fridge. If you will eat mostly in the dining room, I would consider moving the frige to that end of the wall.

How will the message center and the tall adult drop zone differ in function? Do you need both or are you duplicating clutter zones? For me, a message center behind a table is awkward -- not where I want to run to answer the phone, etc. With your drop zone, tall cabinets, pantries and the mudroom, I would feel like your message center functions could be worked into other spaces and that be left out. That's something you need to look at with your uses and space needs in mind.

I didn't even notice the message center. I agree with Lascatx on that one, and would like to see it combined with the unit for adult drop zone.

We disagree about rollouts. I would rather have 16" deep cabinets with stationery (but maybe adjustable) shelves...Shallow enough to see into and better for bigger items than 12" pantries would offer.

Excellent suggestion to add a broom closet (could also slide in a step stool, which I find very helpful to have handy)...I was just thinking of having a little more counter there to the left of the cooktop, but I think the tall util cab is better.

Yikes! Good call on the fridge, everybody. Funny how I moved all these puzzle pieces around, and then in tweaking to adjust minor details, I muffed up something big. Glad you guys are awake!

I'm thinking about the trash. I had thought about having it next to the DW, on the end. I want it to be easily accessible to the public (i.e. kids, visitors) and would like it near my prep zone (island). But that would be fine next to the DW, I think.

The DR and breakfast area are the same size in the layout as they are now. The phone is there now, along w/ a mismatched bookshelf and potato/onion bin. I like the phone on that wall because it's easy to reach if you're coming from another part of the house; don't want to have to cross the kitchen for that. And since I won't have to scoot around my current peninsula, to me it seems like a win already.

Broom/utility closet -- will add one, great catch!

Office -- don't want to have a door from DR. Would like to have one unbroken wall in the DR for art. Actually, the DR will be one foot longer than it is now. It will seem bigger, though, since the doorway to the kitchen is moved closer to the slider...won't have to navigate around as many chairs to get in and out. Maybe I'll find a way to give 1' back to the DR to make it 10.5'.

The mudroom is 6' wide. How much too wide is that? For mudroom purposes, 5' would probably work (2' for cubbies, 3' for aisle). Should I trim that down, or widen the kitchen by a foot?

Will make an updated drawing later -- kids are clamoring to go to the pool. :-)

Ok, I moved a few things around...moved fridge down, put a broom closet next to it so we can open it (need that for FD, right?). I moved the WO and MW over near the cooktop.
That corner on the fridge wall would be a busy place for a WO, I think, and I'd rather have the MW closer to the stove (I know many of you like the MW nearer the fridge, but I prefer it near prep/cooking -- I actually kept a chart taped near the MW for a week and logged where I'd come from every time I used it -- always prep center, sink or stove, except for popcorn).

My thought about the mudroom area is that we'd probably have recycling in there (possibly in a nook in the cabinetry, possibly not) and a hamper (a must w/ kids; our laundry is in a far corner of the house) plus a small trash can. A wide aisle leaves room for a future bench or other stuff. Fridge is for extras of milk, veggies, etc. plus, beer/soda, which we don't drink often. It's ok a little out of the way. More important to have the kid drop zone close to the door.

Re: pantry -- the second pantry cabinet will be for extra stuff. Everyday stuff will be great on the fridge wall; stuff I use one or more times a day (flour, sugar, oil, peanut butter, croutons, vinegar, bread) will be in an island drawer, or over near the stove. Breakfast area will take care of cereal, bagels, snack stuff -- great to have a separate place for that stuff! I haven't decided how to configure that yet; will work on it.

Trash -- I think we'll have it outside a cabinet, as we do now. That gives me room for a 24" drawer stack (need it for flatware!) next to the DW, plus more storage on the island.

Cabinets will be Ikea; haven't put this exact layout into their tool yet, but I pretty much know their cab sizes by now, so I think everything here is doable. Corner between sink and cooktop...I'm debating Lazy Susan vs. a nice wide 30" drawer on the cooktop side (which would create a dead corner).

Oh, and I turned the kitchen table back around and resized it to show how we have it most of the time (w/o the leaf -- we only add the leaf, turn, and pull out from the wall if having company).

{{!gwi}}

scootermom... WOW... I can't believe how much your layout reminds me of my latest. I, like you, use my MW while using my cooktop. I'll defrost meats, reheat sauces, many other chores. Very rarely used for snacks but my kids are grown.

I like your layout, (better... since it's so similar to mine!) but have one thought. If you were to make the opening/door for your bulk storage in the foyer, AND you feel the message center might be a duplication; would you have enough room on that wall (south west left of the table) for a narrow depth buffet table?

Overall, it's good. I like the oven/micro placement. My ovens are on one side of the rangetop and the micro is on the other -- headed towards the table. U se the micro more like you do, adn when I am heating things from the fridge, it is easy to carry a cold dish to the micro nad then the hot dish is near the table.

One potential problem I see here is the pantries. You have to go out of the kitchen and turn to get to them -- which right on the perimeter like that is not a huge deal, but then they are split to opposite sides. If one will have food and the other small aplliances, seasonal dishes and such, then it's not a big deal. That could be a royal PITA if you are thinking both will have food. If that's the case, you'd better plan a way to make the right things be inthe right places and not have to go back and forth too many times.

My biggest question is around the corner near the back door. The aisle in the mudroom area looks like it could be abit narrow, especially for kids with backpacks and coats on. Hmapers raise the question -- where is your laundry? Is that trash and recycling to replace what was in the kitchen? You really need a place for trash in the kitchen.

I am a sucker for taking as few steps as possible in the kitchen -- I like to swivel! So based on my bias, I like your recent iteration. I like how "tight" (and I mean that in a good way) your kitchen is, so that you won't be cooking and training for a marathon at the same time!

I also like the way your fridge and microwave are on the outer edges of your kitchen, so your children can easily access those without getting in the middle of a dinner preparation.

Can you tell us why you want your pantry to have wider rather than deeper shelves? Will you not be doing pull-outs? If not, then I think the orientation you show is the way to to. If you can do roll-out shelves, would you be willing to turn the kitchen pantry to face the island?

Our "pantry" is a few steps away from the bulk of our kitchen, so for that I don't mind taking a few steps.

As lascatx mentions -- are you really clear about what you'll be keeping in your different pantries? We have three pull-out pantries, all right next to each other, and one of the reasons they totally suck is because "oops, I opened the wrong unit, maybe what I want is in this pull-out. Nope! It's not here either."

I'm being a little silly and the truth is, by this point we've become pretty clear about what goes in which unit, but when other people help us in the kitchen it couldn't be more frustrating for them.

Anyway, I just want to follow-up to make sure that really different (and really obviously different) things will be kept in your two pantries.

I am insanely envious of your mudroom! The bench, the cubbies, the recycling station ... that is so wonderful.

just to compare, I have two 84" tall pantry cabinets -- both 24" deep and they flank the fridge. The one to the left is 24" and had rollouts. That's where the dry goods are -- rice, beans, boxes and bags (except the cereal and bread that are in the drawers of the breakfast hutch and flour and sugar that are inmy baking area drawer). On the right is a 12" pullout tower. That has canned goods and bottles (other than the oils and vinegars that are stored right next to the cooktop).

Unlike rmkitchen, I love the pullout, but I only have one, and it's easy for me to know what is in it. If it were me, the pantry on the end of the fridge wall would be a tall pullout tower like mine so that it opens into the kitchen proper.

The way you took inventory of your use of the microwave is essentially the same thing you want to do with all the features and make sure they work to the best advantage most of the time.

I think I just figured somethign out -- is that a trash cab out beside the island on the fridge side? I would really rather not see that. I have a 36" sink base and have trash and recycling under the sink along with my cleaning supplies. You can plan every inch.

lascatx -- I'm so glad you posted what you did about the pull-out pantry and having one of them. After I'd submitted my post I was chatting with my husband about it and he "corrected" me, saying if we had just one it would be fine. Still, we dislike that they're not adjustable (not adjustable enough for our likes) but yes, if there were just one it wouldn't be so bad.

So I was coming back here to post his input and you'd already done it for us. Thank you my fellow white marble kitchen!

The only comment I have about either of your pantry locations is this: do you have a counter somewhere close that you can set things on? The reason I ask is because my pantry is actually located in my laundry room, which makes it two steps outside my kitcehn, but I'm always setting things on top of the washer and dryer. Having the appliances close makes it easy for me to set the bags of canned goods up there to load things into the pantry, or set down big things when I want to refill, for example, my kitchen flour container from the pantry stock.

I agree that you don't want the pantry to be too deep (says she with the 24 inch deep pantry), and adjustable shelves are nice (says she with non-adjustable shelves). But, I would look to see if there is any way to either turn the pantry so the counter top is closer to the front, or put both pantries together with a short cabinet directly across to make putting away groceries easier.

Great food for thought, everyone. Thank you so much for taking the time to think about and comment on my layout. It means a lot to have fresh eyes look, and to hear new ideas!

Here's something I thought about for the fridge wall to solve the pantry problem:

Some replies to individuals:

Remodelfla: Funny, wouldn't have thought that we'd evolve to the same point! We'd thought about closing up that closet and making the front hall coat closet bigger. But I figured this closet (our current pantry) would be good for stuff like paper towels, crock pot, big roasting pans, etc. Perimeter stuff that doesn't need cooking zone real estate. How wide a buffet do you think would be useful? I wouldn't put something more than 15"-18" deep there...but it's something to think about.

lascatx: Good thoughts about pantries. I think the idea pictured above will help for the main pantry. It will be for canned and boxed foods that we eat every day, not counting breakfast stuff, bread, and baking ingreds. So it doesn't have to be huge. The second pantry in the mudroom would be for stuff we don't use often (some food, some not) and Costco extras (don't need all 10 cans of black beans in the kitchen proper). Right now I keep my Costco extras in the basement (down the stairs in the pic and through 2 rooms), so keeping extras in the mudroom will be much closer/easier. Then we'll have more room in the basement for basement stuff (we don't have a garage).

rmkitchen: I really don't want trash under the sink. I wasnt that on the perimeter, so that, like the MW and fridge, kitchen visitors can access it without invading my cooking/cleanup zone. I don't want the kids piling up in there, scraping their plates while I'm trying to clean up. That's why I thought about trash either on the island, or next to the DW. As for recycling, that's a perimeter thing for me, too. Not important enough for prime real estate--I rinse bottles and cans and set them aside until somebody's headed to the recycling area. I guess I can move the sink and DW down towards the corner (foregoing the lazy susan), and put trash on that sink wall.

Another trash can will be in the mudroom for car and backpack trash. As for the width of the mudroom, one person thought it was too wide, one too narrow, so I guess it must be just right! It's 4 feet w/out the hamper, recycling, and trash. Those things would not be built in.

Lissa -- good comments -- does the island look ok for landing space from the pantry? I wouldn't want to use the island as landing for oven or MW, but for pantry/fridge, that's ok.

Breakfast area -- may be the next area I focus more thought on....

Oh no! I'm sorry for that big ugly space in that last post.

Tres stupide!

Chris

You got lascatx and me confused re: trash placement -- I'm with you on keeping it out of your way and in our family, having it under the sink would never, ever work. Well, it would work if we wanted to scream at each other more!

I like your broom closet / pantry solution.

I like the broom closet/pantry solution as well. I just know that I'm lazy ;) so I don't like having to hold a bag in my hand to put things away. I also cringe every time Rachael Ray does her "gather" at the beginning of her show, because I'm constantly waiting on her to drop something! She needs landing space!!!

I liek the broom closet, pantry change too. And it sounds like the use of the two pantries will work out.

We have trash under the sink, but it works for us because we also have a trash pullout on the island and we never have to fight for the spot. That used to be the only place we had, and it was a pain. If that is going to be the only trash space in the kitchen, I don't think it is well placed -- too far from the sink and cooking area. For me though, I don't want a trash can in the aisles at all.

Whoops, I'm sorry, rmkitchen!

Lissa, I have to walk around my peninsula to get to the pantry, which is about 10' from my prep space. And across a major thoroughfare in my house. So when I did a Rachael Ray "gather", it got dangerous! That was when I cleared the bottom shelf of my prep cabinet and moved my daily-used stuff (olive oil, peanut butter, bread, etc.) in there. Can't wait to have drawers!!

Chris

Chris, That's one of the advantages of a galley kitchen, like mine. Everything is within a few feet of where I'm standing at any one time.

I think your kitchen is really getting there! I like this layout and I think I prefer it in it's current location to putting it in the front of the house. Yes, you would have a fun window to use, but then again, it's in the front & you don't want everyone to see your dirty dishes (I think that was actually mentioned on the earlier thread). This layout truly makes your kitchen the "heart" of your home!

Mudroom...sorry, but I think 4' is much too narrow. Our walk-in closet in our MBR is only 4' wide and even w/a hanging rod (2' space) only on the one side it's very tight...I cannot imagine trying to have kids in there trying to hang up backpacks, etc. You need, IMHO, at least 5'...more if you intend to have a hamper, trash, & recycle bins. I strongly advise you to come up with a way to have a 4' space with tall "walls" and "try it out".

Kitchen...you say you want to be able to see out the back windows when you prep...how will you if you have a wall w/cabinets all along that back wall (w/sink)? Or, will you only have a wall for the wall cabinets & have it open b/w the counter & upper cabinets? Is that also where you have your dishes & glasses?

Trash can placement...while I prefer not to have a stand-alone can (dogs!) I can see how you might prefer it there. I wouldn't move the DW to the other side of the sink (would be a barrier to get to cooktop), but what if you put in a 24" recycle center to the left of the DW? Then you wouldn't need those cans in the mudroom and you would have the trash convenient to everyone w/o interfering with the kitchen work.

MW & Oven...good placement for you. While I normally recommend the MW near the refrigerator, for you it appears to work better near the cooktop. It's still on the periphery, also good.

Utility/Pantry...will 12" be enough room for the pantry? Remember you need to include room for the wall + doors and, if the utility closet is a cabinet, then you will also need a back wall (you don't want to mount shelves to the side of a cabinet that way...they're not designed for that.) I suspect you'll need at least 4" for the wall w/doors + 1" or 2" for a back wall...that leaves you with 6" or 7" for shelf space. If you're using a 12" deep pantry cabinet (do they make them?), you'll only need 3/4" for back wall + 3/4" for doors...so 10-1/2" for shelf space. Maybe I'm wrong...but I think you should look into it b/f you finalize the design.

Buehl -- good point about the pantry. I really have no idea whether that will work and need to find out. It simply may not work and I'll have to come up w/ something different. I just figured there was some kind of way to install cabinets like that, since U-shaped kitchens with peninsulas somehow seem to work. I will ask on the Ikeafans website.

Re: the mudroom -- it wasn't clearly marked, but the space without cabinets is 6'. I was thinking 2' for locker/cubby cabinets, and 4' of empty space to the opposite wall. I really think that will be enough. It's 6' more than we've got now! :-) The lockers will be custom. Nothing fancy -- local handyman has built them in several neighboring homes and that sort will be fine.

For recycling -- a small recycling bin is something I could see putting under the sink. Ikea has this tiny pullout recycling bin thingie that doesn't hold a lot, but will hold a day or two's recycling until you have time to make a trip outside. That might be a plan.

Thanks for your help!

Oh stink! Sure enough, there is no 12" wide utility cab from Ikea. So there goes my pantry thought. Oh well. I remember visiting Ikea and seeing their 24" deep pantry cabinet w/ drawers instead of pullouts. It impressed me, and I remember thinking that it was a good option for being 24" deep. Will have to look at that again.

Buehl, you are right...I did want to have a view to the back yard. As long as I have a sight line -- out the doorway to DR and through the slider and big LR window, that's ok. Not optimal, but ok.

In a previous design, which was more like your kitchen, I had put the DR off to the side of the kitchen, where the office is in this new design. That allowed me to have no wall, just a peninsula with great views to the back. Which I really liked....but sigh, there were other probs w/ that layou (DR was isolated).

Anyhow, I'll take a look at those pantry inserts for cans that somebody recommended here recently.

My DH thinks I'm nuts. Anybody else have that going on?

:-) And now it's hard to design a kitchen while watching the Olympics over your shoulder. I'll probably wake up w/ a crick in my neck from that!

Chris

So...did you see the Americans come from behind in the 400? Yeah!!

Chris, you're not the only one whose DH has thought you were crazy...so did mine! But he admits our kitchen is so much better for GW...even if I have spent huge amounts of time here & it cost quite a bit more than we had originally planned. What really converted him though, was when we were having problems w/our kitchen, an anonymous GWer came to our rescue and got the corporate HQ involved...our problems miraculously were solved and we moved forward the next Monday! That alone made my husband swear he would never again complain about the time I've spent here...and he hasn't! He even asks me now & then to post a question here or on another forum about various things (e.g., digital camera on the Electronics Forum).

I still spend quite a bit of my downtime here...or when I desperately need a break! But....my kitchen isn't done yet...still some punch list items, pantry (DH is working on), and paint. BS in a year or two.

[The past 3 or so weeks of work have been major league crisis mode...working 60+ hours per week w/little sleep during the week...I even worked most of my vacation week! GW really helped me when I needed a break! This is much more fun than work sometimes! Hopefully, the next couple of weeks will be calmer!]

Anyway, I'll think about your pantry & utility issue some more.

OH YEA... My DH thinks I"m stressing myself out by being on here too often. He doesn't get that I enjoy it.

I'm in the same boat, ladies! My DH thinks I'm "obsessing" over my kitchen for no reason. In his mind, I should be able to walk into any kitchen cabinet store, pick out what I want in 10 minutes and be done with it. LOL LOL He actually told me that a couple of weeks ago. "What's the big deal? They are boxes that go on the wall and hold your kitchen stuff. Who cares?" I just stared at him in astonishment. He has absolutely NO clue.

This is the same man who doesn't understand how I can spend an hour (or more) looking for the perfect pair of shoes. *Sigh* At least he does do what I ask when it comes to household repairs and such. :)