Replacing the slider is not such a bad idea in order to give you more counter and storage. We had gone on a Kitchen Tour this past Spring. We were in some kitchens with so much counter space, and big islands, but then we realized that they didn't have a table in the kitchen. I think it's fine if it works for you, but you really do need to think about resale many years from now. I think young families with little kids and babies prefer tables, rather than counter height eating. Even if you were able to keep an eating area for a small table, it might be better than totally eliminating it.

Congrats on the new house, how exciting!

Here is the link:

From what you describe, in general, it sounds like it could work, but it would be best if we could see your idea on the plan.

My concern is that the seating for the eating counter and the traffic pattern to the deck will be overlapping.

Here is a link that might be useful: House Plan.

That dining room has a wonderful prize corner location. Since you don't feel a need for kitchen dining, how about maximizing its appeal and function for all day use? Put windows on two walls so the sun floods in, and create a handsomely framed window/passthrough to the kitchen, the kind that can be closed off (but tall/no cabinets over) for chatting and serving.

Then you could also have a couple of stools at the peninsula, nicely away from the door to the garden, for people who want to visit while you're working. I like the idea of a single French door, a 36"er that two people can brush through at once, instead of sliders. The area in front of sliders usually seems to turn out awkward to use and decorate.

This older person wants a table and chairs. Foo on counter height and tall stools.

What is wrong with architects?!!

I highly recommend you move that DW to the other side of the sink.! Not only will it not work there w/o filler (which isn't shown!), but it also interferes w/prepping & cooking!

The range has virtually no work or emergency landing space b/w it and the refrigerator. Which also means...

The refrigerator has no landing space either.

Additionally, in a kitchen with so little cabinet space, making a corner a dead space like that is not a good idea....that only works if your kitchen has plenty of cabinet space.

Regarding a peninsula w/six stools...if the seats are all on one side, that means a peninsula 12' long...which would not fit in your kitchen. It would also mean everyone would be lined up like ducks in a row.

If you have a corner as well, perhaps you could go w/four on one side + 2 on the end. That would give you an 8' long x 5'3" wide peninsula. The only way that would work is if you have nothing on the "bottom" wall...you need 4' - 5' of aisle space if there's going to be seating + traffic (w/no work space/cabinets...if workspace/cabinets, need 4'6" - 6'6" aisle)). You may also have to move the deck door out of the kitchen altogether (maybe just around the corner in the FR).

To know for sure, it would have to be worked out on paper with actual measurements (which, btw, that plan doesn't seem to have...e.g., the DW is off...unless it's an 18" DW...)

How would you feel about 2 or 3 seats in the kitchen and eating all your meals in the DR? Then, an island arrangement might work...again, it would have to be worked out on paper to be sure it would work...

Initially, I'd recommend moving the Ref to the bottom kitchen wall, putting in a 36" pantry cabinet, and b/w them put in a 30" or so counter space w/a MW above. The upper cabinet would have to be a little deeper to accommodate a MW, but I think that would work.

I would then put in a 36" super susan in the corner b/e thw range & sink walls, flank the range by 24" cabinets, and put in a 36" hood over the range.

For the sink wall, move the DW to the other side of the sink and put in at least a 12" cabinet b/w the sink & super susan to increase work space b/w the sink & range.

I don't have time right now to try to work out the peninsula or island layouts, but maybe someone else will...I'll see if I have tie later tonight if no one else does it.

Good luck!

How exciting to be building a new house! If I were to eliminate something it would be the formal living room not the eat-in area. I'd move the DR into the LR, and put in big glass French doors. I'd extend the kitchen into the DR, add an island, and keep the eat-in area.

I echo what's been stated above - eliminating all table and chair eating isn't a good idea. If the table area is in a corner, a banquette provides table eating and takes up less room. Your table doesn't have to be built in, just the seating, or seating just on one or two sides and supplement with chairs as needed . Just another idea to consider.

Could you do a wall and countertop layout something like this one posted by megpie77 as her inspiration picture on Wednesday?

If you opened your kitchen to the dining room, you may not need a kitchen table for eat-in space. You could add penisula countertop space for kitchen use and casual kitchen eating. As it is, it looks like you are pretty limited on counter space.

The layout that you posted is very similar to the kitchen I'm living in while working on mine and I am constantly running out of countertop space. The kitchen I'm using now looks big, but it functions like a very small kitchen. Until I moved in and started cooking, I had no idea it would feel so cramped. I think you'd get good use out of any countertop space added to your kitchen.

The inspiration pic posted has a couple of issues...in particular, the location of the cooktop and DW...neither are positioned well. I bit my tongue before, but I feel I need to speak out now since this pic is being used again.

The DW appears to be right next to the corner...which means it cannot be open while someone is working at the sink...whether prepping or cleaning up. It's especially an issue for cleaning up.

The second issue is the cooktop. There is not enough counter b/w the seats and the back of the cooktop...if anyone sits there while something's on one or more of the burners, they're going to be subjected to splattering grease, steam from boiling pots, smoke, mega-odors, etc. Additionally, there really should be more space b/w the cooktop and the side edge as well. If you absolutely must have a cooktop in a peninsula or island, then plan for at least 24" around it...both sides & behind...regardless of the presence (or lack) of seating. (Also think about trying to read the paper or do work or homework in that area...even w/o flames it can be dangerous. And then there's the "reaching across" issue...when a child shows you a piece of his/her artwork or someone wants to share an article w/you...It's OK if nothing is cooking & the cooktop is cold, but if there's anything cooking or the cooktop is still hot, it becomes a problem.)

Then there's the lack of range/vent hood...making it even worse for people sitting at the peninsula.

Lastly, the presence of the cooktop (or sink) in the peninsula robs you of the nice expanse of workspace that peninsulas & islands offer.

Things to remember about seating:

• Each seat needs 24" (or 2' ) of linear space (e.g., a 6' run can seat 3 people)

• For counter-height seating (36" high):

  • With no cooktop or sink, there should be a 15" overhang/clear leg space

  • With a sink, there should be at least an 18" overhang (to minimize splashing)

  • With a cooktop, there should be at least a 24" overhang (for safety reasons)

• For bar-height seating (42" high):

  • With no cooktop or sink, there should be a 12" overhang/clear leg space

  • With a sink, there should be at least an 18" overhang (to minimize splashing)

  • With a cooktop, there should be at least a 24" overhang (for safety reasons)

• For table-height seating (30" high):

  • With no cooktop or sink, there should be an 18" overhang/clear leg space

  • With a sink, there should be at least an 18" overhang (to minimize splashing)

  • With a cooktop, there should be at least a 24" overhang (for safety reasons)

BTW...raised counters (bar-height like behind sink in pic) don't hide much... The only people they hide dirty dishes, etc. from are those whose eyes are below the level of the counter. If even a short adult is standing or walking by (or anyone sitting at the counter), they will see the dirty dishes just fine. A deep sink works better to hide dishes. Bar-height seating is difficult for young children and older people to get in/out of. ...

Some ideas:

Here's an idea w/a Baking Center....

We are going to have only one dining area in our house-it is open to our kitchen but a large space that will have a 8' farmhouse table. I think it's wasted space to have island seating, eat-in kitchen as well as formal dining room.

i like the 3rd one buehl - but not that fat of a peninsula (I'd never be able to reach part of it) and I'd put a partial wall on the DR side and open it up to the DR. the Dr seems really closed off to me.

We are building and do not have an eat in kitchen. Instead we opted for a huge island that seats 6. We have a dining room so I'm not worried about not having a kitchen table. I think the island will be plenty for our family.

I have to strongly agree with buehl about the placement of appliances and landing spaces. We lived with that kitchen for about 2 years. It was soo awful.

Our current kitchen is similar, thought not as bad, and we still plan to change it to pretty much what buehl's first layout looks like.

That said, I couldn't live without my separate dining room (though I wouldn't mind eliminating the wall between kitchen and dining) and don't see the need for 2 living rooms ;) But it's all about what works for our individual families, right?

I like the ideas that beuhl posted. I would also open up the dining room to the kitchen with at least a pass through, if not a half wall opening (no upper cabinets).

We are building new construction, as well. We have a kitchen with an island that will seat 4 and a nearby dining area that is to be formal or informal. It will seat 10-12. No formal dining room, but no true eat-in kitchen either.

buehl-I know you dislike my inspiration kitchen but it actually works quite well and I don't know what else I could have done with the door placements into the kitchen and wanting to incorporate an office. I would be curious to know what you would have done...you have such great ideas. (Are you a designer?) There is a pop-up vent in the inspiration pic, and yes guests would not want to sit there while cooking but mabey great for older kids or adults to eat a bowl of cereal or something. We moved our dishwasher over about 2-3ft (basically switched it with drawers). Although I wish it was where the picture shows it. It wouldn't be as cramped as one would think because at the sink the dishwasher is not DIRECTLY behind you. It's hard to explain. I love having my sink where it is because I can see our TV mounted on the wall in our living room. And I have tons of prepspace in front of the window! Perhaps it is not technically the best layout but our kitchen is much better than what it was and I think there are aspects of the inspiration kitchen that someone may want to concider and it helps to get a visual whether it be layout, a wall taken down, door style/color, fixtures, backsplash etc.

Lisa, obviously I am not too good with layouts, as not too many seem to be thrilled by mine, but I must say I wish I had an eat-in kichen. My kitchen was just a little too small to fit everything I wanted in to in it. It is such a pain to clean up the dining room table after every meal. I am not sure why it's more of a pain because what's the difference if the table is in the kitchen or the dining room? Out of buehls 3 layouts I really like the first one. But that's just my opinion. Congratulations on your new home, it looks beautiful and I am sure your kitchen will be too! Keep us posted. Here are some unfinished pics of mine just FYI

We did have an eat-in kitchen adjacent to a separate DR. We NEVER used the eat-in kitchen. During remodel we are adding an island with seating for four and keeping our table/chairs in the DR.

Megpie, I'm sorry...I was just concerned that others might think it was an "ideal" layout. However, I do note that in your kitchen you've corrected the DW issue!

In the inspiration pic, it looks like there's just a little 6" or 9" cabinet b/w the corner & the DW. In your case, you have what looks to be like 24" b/w the DW & corner...plenty of space to stand. It also appears you have space b/w the DW & the cooktop to stand. No, it's not ideal, but sometimes you have to make compromises...and it looks like you improved on your inspiration pic to make it more functional....good job!

As to multiple eating spaces...we went from an eat-in kitchen + formal DR to a peninsula w/2 seats + what I call an informal DR...a little more formal than the kitchen table in our old kitchen, but less formal than the DR in our old DR. We also gained a tremendous amount of countertop & cabinet space by eliminating the table that we had outgrown.

I have to agree that unless your kitchen is huge, 3 eating spaces is excessive. But, sometimes that third space may be a multi-purpose space...a place for a snack or a place to put your laptop or do homework...then that third space can be useful (and justified!)

Don't know if you are very formal.
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Everyone has different needs and preferences. We eliminated our eat-in area even though it was where we ate all our meals in favor of enlarging our dining room and opening it to the kitchen. However, if we had a larger house, I would love to have island seating, plus a breakfast nook or eat-in area, plus a separate dining room with French doors that can be closed in order to create a more formal yet cozy dining environment. I prefer sit-down dinners around a table so that you can see each other. Our island seating is useful for doing homework, reading recipes, etc. but I would never want it to be the main dining area.

On the other hand, a formal living room when there's already a family room and a study, would be a complete waste of space in my home, but I'm sure there are people who use them ... although I don't know anyone who does.

WOW! I wasn't expecting so many responses! Opening up the kitchen to the dining room is something that I hadn't considered but is a fantastic idea! I can;t see the pictures at work for some reason, I think my company blocks links, so I'll take a peek when I get home. Can't wait.

We are meeting with the kitchen designer sometime this week to start the process. What we did was give the builder this general layout so he could make plans for us (all of the space in a house of comparable size that he had plans for was upstairs). Now we'll see how the appliance situation will work out. I am getting a gas cooktop, range hood, double oven and its funny that you mention countertop space because I already told him I need a ton and the cabinetry on the opposite wall of the L is actually going to be a double pantry, so we may need to find a new home for the fridge too! I am trying to keep it on an inside wall so that we don't have to get counter depth. My uncle who is a builder has a trick for making it look like it is by eliminating the 2x4s behind it in the wall? Not sure how he does it but the buildr of our home seemed to know what he was talkign about and I would rather use the $600 elsewhere! I will post plans as soon as I get them and ask for comment! Lots to think about...

I just wanted to chime in agreement with Margarita. I too prefer a table and chairs to the bar stool/counter scenario. I feel like bar chairs are usually just something to lean on that discourage really digging in and getting confortable for long coffee sessions.