I think your kitchen is going to be nice looking and interesting, with or without the pewter-grilled cabinet. I think you are going in the right general direction for the whole house, but I am biased as a strong classicist. (Or at least someone who tries for authenticity, classic, or not.)

This isn't a subway tile kitchen, btw. I don't exactly know what it *is, but I don't think it's that. This opinion is not based on the kitchen per se but on the house.

I don't have a strong opinion on the prep sink one way or the other. I think they can improve function but not everyone wants one. And, I know some people say, after they've had one they don't know how they lived without it. However, since you will be living without it, you still won't know anyway :-)

My kitchen layout is very similar to yours. I am going to agree with the other posters that you will need the counterspace next to the range more than the appliance garage. I also encourage you to rehink your island without a sink. I think if you do not add a sink you will regret it. I have both a farmhouse sink where you have one placed and a full size undermount stainless sink directly across from my range in the island. You are spending a tremendous amount on your kitchen and the time to do this is now and not when you realize you should have done it.
Can't wait to see the finished project!

I vote to keep the cabinets going all the way down to the counter. They're at the corner and that is not an unusual set up for a 90 degree corner. If it was just a straight run with no corners, I would feel differently and likely want it more symmetrical.

Everytime I flipped through a magazine & saw that style of setup that you have in the drawings I would wish that I had a corner in my kitchen where I could do that. But alas, my range wall is a straight run flanked by a doorway on either end. I would stay with the original design.

Hope this helps!

What if I made it look like this instead?

{{!gwi}}

Source: traditionalhome.com via Susan on Pinterest

Okay...that's really pretty! Can you put that type of cabinet at the end of the sink run?

It might look
Strange at the end of the sink run though, right?

Ooooh! I really like that too! You have such good taste, threeapples! I still vote to keep the cabinets that go all the way down to the counter in whichever configuration of cabinets/drawers you think will work best for you. I'm seeing kitchen linen storage in those drawers in the pic above--towels, dishcloths, placemats, etc.

As far as a prep sink in the island. We went back and forth over this for a long time. My Mom & Dad have a large island with a similar range-island-sink set up as you, but their range is a little closer to the sink than yours. They have a double bowl undermount sink with dishes in 1 side & prep in the other. It works, but it could be better and less crowded when multiple cooks are in the space. On the other hand, they have a huge amount of prep space with a large island (5'x9') countertop that is uninterrupted. Our kitchen is set up similarly to yours as well when it comes to fridge-range-island-cleanup sink configuration. In the end, we opted to add a sink to our island directly across from the rangetop. We went with a full size single bowl sink (30") instead of a small prep sink. Functionality-wise, I'm so glad we did it. It makes prep so much easier to have the water source across from the range for rinsing produce and filling pots. All the dirty dishes are out of the way in the cleanup sink. Aesthetically, I didn't think I would like it at all, but now that it's in and we've lived with it for 9 months, I don't mind the look at all. It probably helps that the backs of the barstools at the island help conceal the faucet somewhat so you really don't notice it. Additionally, the range hood & chandeliers pull your eye upward and away from the island faucet/sink when you're looking at the area head-on. I'm having trouble with accessing photobucket right now, so I can't post a pic of my island-range area directly in this thread to give you a visual. However, I have included a link below to another thread on the brand of cabinets we used that has plenty of pics.

I would not sweat the distance of the fridge to the sink even if you don't opt for a sink in the island. Our fridge is 20' from the clean-up sink and it's really not that big a deal--I know this because DS1 is in charge of the dishes and he is horrible about forgetting to empty the DW next to our cleanup sink-so we're always making the trek from the DW/sink area to the fridge. I would, however, recommend a water dispenser in the fridge (either in the door or on the inside) as it does make it easier if you're after a glass of water.

Hope this helps!

Here is a link that might be useful: Mydreamhome's Kitchen Pics

Why would this look strange at the end of the sink run, in particular? It looks like it would be for dishes which would make sense in that location.

I am going to throw a bit of a wrench in the works here, that would not really involve changing the layout or essential kitchen but the "Zeitgiest" or "Je ne sais quoi" of this kitchen. (German and French in an English-based house, ignore that part)

The range run, in particular is getting rather elaborate, and I think you may be starting to run the risk of turning this into a High Georgian Formal Room with appliances put in it.

I am linking you to a site that approaches this slightly differently (and you may need to look at some English interior design books too)...

What I am suggesting is that instead of a room of High Georgian cabinetry, that you stick appliances into what if it becomes a High Georgian Room, that you stick an entire Kitchen in. There is a slight but substantial difference.

Refer to Spitalfields 3, 4, and FIVE in particular

Here is a link that might be useful: Plain English Spitalfields

Palimpset, I've browsed that site before. Gorgeous spaces, I agree. I'm not sure how we'd incorporate image 5 into my space. Also, those kitchens seem to be more in keeping with the true Georgian house where kitchens were not showcase rooms and visible off living rooms, etc. ours will be connected to the formal family room.
You're saying to do this column cabinet on the far sink wall?
I have a lot to think about before our supposed final cabinetry meeting tomorrow! Yikes!!!

What I am thinking and this goes against my usual thought in a conventional ceilinged house, is what if the cabinets did not go all the way to the ceiling, and the ceiling and its cornice were continual around the room?

Then what about instead of having an elaborate overmantle type hood you made the range appear to be inserted into an actual chimney breast (Spitalfields 3) where the Ceiling and Cornice actually bumped out as if there were a physical house chimney above it.

I think part of the issue that I am seeing here is that you are trying to put some "unfitted" elements in what is a very conventional American fitted layout, and you aren't happy with the way it is working. (Or the designer isn't, or you both aren't)

I think you need to unfit it a bit, and then you may be able to do a hutch piece like you are trying for with a bit more verisimilitude.

The Room Detail could be bumped up a notch--formalizing the Room, not the Cabinetry, and the cabinetry detail could be stripped down a notch --thus creating an unfitted kitchen in a previously "formal room" of the house.(Spitalfields 5 is definitely in a parlor space)

Since you are building an essentially historic house, this is a way to provide some kind of narrative to the kitchen's presence in the house rather than having 21st century de novo in a supposedly historic house.

I think you're crowding all your clowns into the range wall and like the idea of the pewter mesh cabinets on the sink wall. The 4 stacked cabs near the sink look top-heavy to me with only one small drawer under them. And what is that to the left, two dishwashers? I'd do drawers on that run of base cabinets to make it look like a hutch with the pewter mesh uppers.

I may be weird (I only quickly looked through all of your responses). I keep my bread and toaster in a drawer together. We don't toast all that often or eat that much sliced bread. It's easier for me. I like it without the cabinet to the counter like palmpiset said. Looks beautiful so far!
Kim

Palimpset, seriously, you're killing me! I LOVE your idea. But, I fear it's too late since today is supposed to be our last kitchen cabinet meeting. I need to talk to my husband and designer. Lots to think about if we have to go back to the drawing board.....

As a paradigm shift, it's big, but implementation could be relatively simple:

Basically you would not have the upper bank of cabinets, and anything that Needed to go to the ceiling, like the range hood complex, would be "structural", --in your case boxed out like a chimney, and the ceiling would get whatever cornice went around the entire room as a whole, and maybe whatever entire treatment the ceilings got, it would get.

Everything else could stay the same, really, except maybe a slightly simpler doorstyle

The only big cabinetry change would be a much less elaborate hood.

Designer pointed me to the Georgian kitchen at jeremydavies.co.uk
Any thoughts on that?
Decided against the ceiling to counter cabinet. Should I eliminate the extra uppers on range wall and just do the two that flank the hood?

Jeremy Davies, also nice.

Notice that it is a bit "stripped" compared to what the American Georgian revival would be, and the Davies example again has a rather elaborate shell or envelope and the cabinets, while substantial are understated.

Also notice no backsplash or 4" backsplash in counter material.

Palimpset, how crazy is it that I'm
Checking this thread while we are in the meeting with the cabinet guy?!
What do you mean the Davies has an elaborate shell?
I'm going to change back to a dentil molding for the kitchen. Should I eliminate the extra two uppers on the range wall?

The Georgian Room is kinda fancy with cornice and a medallion around the fixture...the "room" of the kitchen is fancier Georgian and the cabietns a bit less so.

I think it would work either way with the uppers, and if you need the storage near the range I would keep them...there is not really a wrong answer for this one.

I am checking this thread between checking patients :-) today is a clinic teaching day and they are finishing their degrees so there is not so much intervention at this point :-)

Palimpset, think about the way the uppers to the right of the range help provide an even amount of visual space to either side of the sink wall window. If I eliminated the extra uppers on the range wall the space surrounding the window would be uneven. If I took away the lower component of the extra range wall uppers it would potentially look odd that they are wider than the uppers flanking the range. We can't move the range on the wall because it is centered with the island and the ceiling fixtures. Ughh. It may look awful to have the additional uppers wider than their immediate neighbor, right?

I like that the uppers to the corner do place the window in a relatively equal relationship from left to right.

I think what you are saying is that the pewter grille, and/or the cabinet to the counter makes up for the relative asymmetry of that run of cabinets.

I agree. You could differentiate it with the pewter grille you could differentiate it with glass doors, or with and open shelf unit (harder to clean, imo).

Is that why you want it?

Not sure I want it for those reasons or because I have no other ideas! The designer advises against it. Not sure what to do in its place considering the amount of room left there. I'm so tired of freaking out about this kitchen.
What do Indo behind the range if no backsplash?

Why does the designer advise against it?

What is the designer's suggestion for the space, and for the effect it has on the window?

There is a backsplash behind the range in those kitchens, usually (although in a couple it looks like glossy paint), but not the extensive, full backsplashes of the US.

palimpsest, not sure why the designer advises against the ceiling to counter cabinet. she just said there are other ways to add interest into the kitchen. she suggested regular uppers there, but i'm not sure whether she noticed the space discrepancy. i pointed that out to her via email this evening and hope to hear from her soon. perhaps those last two uppers should be a different depth so they don't look like a measuring mistake?

i'm not sure how a backsplash just behind the range would look. the edges might look odd. i'm beginning to like the look of just the 4" thing for the perimeter on the sink wall. guess i have more brainstorming to do.

think i should not do the raised panel beaded inset cabinets? perhaps a beaded inset with no raised panel doors or drawers?

Ok, designer suggests shrinking the range hood cabs slightly and replacing the ceiling-to-counter cabinets with three uppers that match the ones that flank the range hood. She also thinks we should move the corbels from the hood out so they center above the spice pull outs in the lower cabs and reconfigure the cabinetry in the lowers to make it more symmetrical. This will mean moving pot and pan storage to the island.

Any thoughts?

I don't know that I like the rank of 4 doors designer is suggesting over to the right of the range. The difference in size of the ones that are "extra", or not a part of the symmetrical arrangement are set apart that way. I like that the ones that are not a part of the centered arrangement are different.

I don't think the depth needs to be changed to have an exact reveal on both sides of the window. Similar is okay, because it's an unbalanced elevation anyway. If it were symmetrical and it were off, that would be different.

I think centering the corbels over the spice pulls is okay.

I would not make the lowers more symmetrical if it decreases function. People rarely "read" the lowers the same way they do the uppers because so many things that go into the lowers are different sizes by necessity. (Range usually 30-36; DW 24; sink base 33-36"; trash 15-18)

I don't want to become your designer's nemesis :)

Nah, your help is wonderful.
What if we just add one upper the same size as the flanking ones and use the remainder of the space for a ceiling to counter unit?
At this rate I should invest in software to try all this out, lol.

I kinda think one vs two + counterheight would be more unbalanced than one vs one + counterheight.

What is your concern, that the counterheight is relatively wide?

What about counterheight but with an open compartment at the bottom instead of doors, more like an actual hutch?

My concern is just that it is trendy, won't look good, will get in the way, or just doesn't make sense.
I'm super frustrated and should just make a decision, but this seems like a big deal and I don't want to screw up.
I'll try to search online for hutch-like cabinets instead.

If it goes down to the counter but just has sides but no doors on the bottom segment it will look like a hutch and shouldnt be trendy per se.

As for backsplash you would probably get away with stainless behind the hood and minimal-nothing elsewhere: that's what your English inspirations seem to have.

What is your latest thought?

I think what you end up with on the back splash will be related to you counters (of course)--if you use soapstone you could just have the soapstone behind the range as a splash as well, stainless (or whatever color metal the range is); and actually, I think pretty much do without elsewhere.

I am intrigued by the backsplashes, (or really lack of) I see on Plain English or Jeremy Davies that look like a band of glossy paint that matches the wallcolor.

This reminds me of the paint scheme in parts of Mount Pleasant, where the room had a band of brown paint around the entire perimeter of the room (crossing base, plinths, doors, everything at the same height all around). This was to disguise splatters from the floor scrubbing and the sweeping out of the rooms with sand.

palimpsest, i decided on the honed montclair danby marble for all the counters in the kitchen. it's rather darkly veined (at least polished it appears that way) and it really spoke to me.

honestly, i'm really struggling here. the back splash (or lack thereof) is least of my concerns. i will say, however, that i brought up the no back splash to the designer and she thought that was a terrible idea and that, "in a house like this it will look cheap or builder's grade".

what really bugs me is that corner issue on the range wall. i simply cannot decide what is best and have such conflicting advice. i've gone as far as to think about having the framer come in and frame false corner that sticks out from counter to ceiling to pretend there is a pipe or something behind it so that at least i have the space filled. uggh.

i'm obviously very open to ideas (and value yours and those of other gw'ers) so if you have thoughts please do send them my way.

Did your designer look at Plain English and Jeremy Davies, really? I think she has her blinders on on that one. I am not saying you have to go without, but I think a statement like that on her part means she can't paradigm-shift very well.

In "a house like this" based upon an 18th century American interpretation of an English model...that might be exactly what is called for. The Founding Fathers didn't have subway tile.

You still haven't really been able to convey what her reason is for being so against a cabinet, or a cabinet of that type over there. She is against it, but isn't really giving you an alternative that is making you happy.

I hope that she is not one of those designers that is going to get you to try and glitz things up because that is what is "expected" of a house of XXXX square feet with a largish budget...

I am really thinking I should step away from the debate podium on this one, because you are working with a designer and I am probably only confusing your decision process at this point.

But ask her to bring her reference materials on Georgian/Federal houses-interiors-patterns so you can see what she is basing Her decision making process on. I know You've been looking at the right stuff.

I'll try again to get a definitive answer on the cabinet.
I will try to relay the aesthetic again more firmly.
Palimpsest, what's your best advice on the cabinet (or open shelves, or plate racks, or whatever else is possible)?
I'm starting to question the whole design in general, even thinking about having the wood hood include a shelf for display. Thoughts?
Thanks!!!!

Okay...since you asked, this is what I would do.

I'd keep the range wall exactly 'as is' and use the appliance garages and that lovely cabinet with diamond pattern, that you posted above. Then, I'd do the same thing, with at least the end two cabinets, next to the main sink. Probably make it look like the picture, with those little drawers...very cool!

The fridge has a cabinet panel, but the microwave does not. This seems a little odd (too informal?) to me, so I'd either put a door that slides in (hides) above the microwave...or move it to the island, across from the range.

And, I would definitely have a prep sink on the island, but I'd find one that looks amazing and really works with your decor. Either similar to your main sink or completely different...like antique pewter or bronze. Make it a focal point and show that you wanted the prep sink to get noticed.

Are you still using the same marble for the island and perimeter countertops? If not, what about marble on perimeter and black on the island? That would look good, too. Still like white or marble subway tiles for the backsplash...probably marble first!

Hope that helps :)

I think it you made it like a hutch with glass doors, perhaps more conventional divided-lite doors, and no enclosure on the bottom section, it would give you the differentiation from the symmetrical area around the range, and the balance around the window that you want, without being too fancy. Maybe the designer is concerned about competing focal points with the range hood.

The thing that I don't like about the range hood myself is the keystone. A keystone is a structural masonry element, and sometimes it is used on the top of a wooden stilted arched window as a millwork detail (mimicking the exterior probably) but as an applique on a somewhat elliptical wooden paneled arch it rings false to me.

I also think the horizontal doors above the fridge are a bit of an aberration in the overall design.

There, I stepped out of the debate for all of ten minutes :-P

Lavender, we've made all those changes minus the prep sink. Thanks for your wonderful help!
Palimpsest, the hood design was something I
Copied from an online image. I'm starting to agree its too much. Any
Simpler suggestions?

I really like this hood design, posted by Quiltgirl.
{{!gwi}}From Fairy tale cottage

I am partial to something like this: (of course)

Of course the return on the sides would have to be different since there are cabinets adjacent. But a simple mantle shelf that returns onto a plain box that is "chimney" could be nice.

Both are very nice.
Palimpsest, would the box be wood or drywall?
Right now we have a flat drywall wall. To drywall over the vent-a-hood might not be easy, right?
Wish I could find something similar with cabinets adjacent. And I also wish I had the guts to replicate that kitchen. The color scheme seen from the formal family room goes t make sense, not does the lack of cabinet storage.

Threeapples- I don't think you should be second guessing your choices. You're happy with them and they look great. The only thing that I might change is that keystone (as Pal said) and just have the same hood, without it. Instead of panels on each side, just have one that follows the shape of the hood. Does that make sense?

As it is, the keystone emphasizes that you have two ranges, rather than one big one. That's fine, but why not treat it as one large cooking area and not use the keystone. Just an idea :)

Oh my goodness, now I'm leaning toward no uppers on the range wall and doing something like this....
Check out this photo from Snapbucket: http://pbckt.com/pz.u9GHLq

Here is a link that might be useful: Range wall

How about if you did a cross between the Plain English and the above.

Just a range hood that is part hood part chimney breast (which is what those look like to me).

Then a 24" wide to the counter hutch piece that sits only on the counter run that the sink is on, facing it.

The Plain English has an offset cabinet like this. It gives you the balance around the window and it gives you the No Uppers look around the range.

So the counter cab would be on the range wall in the corner or on the sink wall? Sorry, running on no sleep here!

I'm
Wondering whether I'd be able to achieve this charm with new construction, however. We will have drywall, not plaster. Also, we have two lights planned for above the island and one planned for above the kitchen table, with sconces planned to be mounted on the casement window casing. Will those all detract from the simplicity or can I make them work?

It would be on the range wall. It would be about the width of the far right hand door of the grilled cabinet in your original drawing.

I think you can make the lighting work.

You will get essentially the same look from drywall as plaster. Plaster is really a rarity in most parts of the country. I have areas abutting each other that are drywall against plaster and its not obvious.

So what would I do for a back splash if I did this chimney hood and shelf, no uppers, but counter cab in the corner?

Should I eliminate crown molding from the room?

Should I take fluted columns and an overhang away from the island?

I would do moulding around the whole room as if it were cornice (like the room existed before the kitchen)

-I would wrap the upper part of the range hood as if it were chimney breast.

-I would run cornice across the entire front of the fridge run as if the fridge and those cabinets were set back into an alcove. (These cabinets would be the same height as now with a soffit essentially, but only one the height of the cornice itself.

-For the counter height cabinet and the sink uppers you have a couple of options:
*make them shorter and run the soffit all the way around the wall over them and only have a simple moulding at the top of the cabinet

*have the cornice die into the sides of the cabinets which still go to the ceiling and top them with a simpler moulding that then dies into the cornice.

The over hang could be practical so I would keep it. Are there fluted elements anywhere else? If there are and you want to keep them it's fine, if not you may want to go with a simpler leg. Either would be correct.

I think you could run a Danby splash the entire height of the counter to cabinet (or hood) space from left to right.
It has a natural spot to die into the corner cabinet then.

Over the sink I don't think you need anything except something narrow perhaps to engage the height of the window sill. I would run it all the way across. Again it has a natural stopping point at the corner cabinet. If the sill is true counter height you may not need anything on that run.

Next to the fridge I would probably just do a wood panel that matched the cabinet doors.

Your designer must have a Palimpsest voodoo doll by now :/

Haha. My designer has no idea who you are! In fact, I've not had a chance to relay today's design crisis with her yet!!
I'm not sure I follow you with the cornice by the fridge. Can't I have my uppers use the same molding as the ceiling? Is it a mistake to take them fill height?
I'm thinking running the danby on the whole range wall can't happen because there isnt enough of it. Might stainless steel beneath the "chimney" look ok?

Stainless under chimney okay.

Yes the cabinets can be the same moulding as the ceiling, but I had thought when you said you went back to dentil moulding you were treating it like "cornice" and I was adding cabinets to an "intact" room, --either way works.

I was thinking take the dentil moulding straight across in front of the fridge instead of following in and out at the depth of the cabinets, because that part is built essentially into a recess, I was just heightening that idea.

Haha. My designer has no idea who you are! In fact, I've not had a chance to relay today's design crisis with her yet!!
I'm not sure I follow you with the cornice by the fridge. Can't I have my uppers use the same molding as the ceiling? Is it a mistake to take them fill height?
I'm thinking running the danby on the whole range wall can't happen because there isnt enough of it. Might stainless steel beneath the "chimney" look ok?