Smooth top electric cooktops are just electric cooktops unless you are going with induction. They all have teh same drawbacks and function the same, with a few minor differences for adjustable eyes and maybe touch controls. In other words, there's very little functional difference between a $600 Kenmore and a $2000 Viking. So, any inexpensive smooth top will work the same as the Wolf you were thinking about. For a fridge, get a counter depth one ($2500)instead of a built in, and save 4K. GE, LG, and others makes a few, and French doors make more sense than traditional size by sides. Wall ovens, well, those are spendy no matter whose brand they are. A plain GE will still run you 2K, but I wouldn't cheap out with a Frigidaire there, that's for sure. A nice Bosch DW can be had for around $600-$1K and will still wash the dishes exactly the same. Use a plain jane free standing MW on a shelf instead of a built in and save cabinet and appliance money. Y ou didn't include venting in your budget, but plan on around $600-1K for that, depending on your duct run and CFM you choose.

You could also eliminate the wall ovens and cooktop in favor of a range and save even more. A GE Cafe range can be had for around $2500, and that's 2 ovens. Add a second wall oven elsewhere for $800 if you feel you must.

I also dreamed and planned for that professional kitchen, with all the bells and whistles. My new plan is to simplify everything. My son had a stroke and now uses a wheelchair and has some mobility issues even while in the chair. I am home a lot, instead of working, so there went the budget! My new plan:
Induction, for ease of cleaning and safety. Not budget friendly, but not so bad as a 48" Wolf.
Samsung 29cu.ft. fridge. Tons of space. High humidity in refrigerator area because of separated cooling mechanism keeps food fresh longer. (That's the reason you're supposed to want that Sub Zero, not just because it looks SO COOL!) Highly rated. French door works best for my son.
Sharp MW drawer. We're undecided about this, but you should check it out. It's pretty affordable.
If you want custom panel DW, check out Blomberg. Highly rated, long popular in Europe, available in US now.It's a bargain compared to other custom panel options.
No luxury appliance or any other elective purchase is worth angst and worry over your budget. You'll enjoy family time in your new kitchen a lot more if you aren't stressed out. You can always upgrade in the future. Good luck!

We also have a Sears budget, but knew we wanted this to be our 'forever' kitchen, and it will be used a LOT. So we put our money into things that mattered most. All fridges keep things cold, so we have Electrolux all-fridges and all-freezer. Went mid-line Bosch for dishwashers, and were able to get a GREAT deal on Ebay for a Fisher and Paykel wall oven that has all the bells and whistles I need in a good performer. We have an Electrolux hood vent instead of something like Wolf, and created a niche in a cabinet for a counter microwave...a couple hundred dollars instead of several hundred for a built-in. All of that allowed us to splurge on the rangetop, which is our only Wolf.

It's tough to balance everything and decide what are the best choices for you. So I sympathize. Best wishes!

Ebay and craigslist are great sources for high-end appliances at medium-end prices. There's a subzero listed on ebay now from the same seller who sold us ours. Price is $4000.

Here is a link that might be useful: ebay subzero

Look for appliance clearance centers. There's one in my area that has high end appliances removed from kitchen showroom displays for about 60% less.

Shopping around takes time, but you can save a lot of money. Craigslist is a great resource. I have seen several posts here on GW about great finds there.

Judiace-

If you are in the Bay Area we have a 2yr old Wolf 30 Duel Fuel we are going to be posting on craigslist.

I'm really, really happy with my GE Cafe appliances - dual fuel range, fridge and otr microwave. They have a professional look without the professional price, and they work great. We got them at Sears (because we too have a Sears budget) during their "buy 3 appliances, get 20% off sale". We spent about $5,000 for all three. They are comparable to the GE Profile line.

Check out dealer scratch and dents. I just bought a $1300 Asko DW for $550 and it's in perfect condition. It was on sale because its model has been replaced. I have done this before with great success. Just examine carefully before you buy.

Hey there,

It is certainly possible.

Try to decide what features you like in the brands you picked, and look for comparables in less expensive brands.

I agree with live oak wire in response to the electric cooktop...and you can always upgrade later if you want the brand name.

By the way, we went with a JennAire counter depth fridge (which I think works better than the Subzero in my last kitchen), a Kennmore pro 30" dual fuel range (mixed feelings about that one. Certainly better than my old kitchen Viking, but I would go a different route if I could do it over), and a second-hand Asko we picked up on Craigslist for $200 (works great, still looks good).

Nathalie

We went through much the same process and I scoured my appliance budget. Like most, I wanted as much bang for my buck as I could get, researched to the nth degree, and struggled with these choices. We ended up with Electrolux Icon all fridge and all freezer, Kenmore Pro double wall ovens, mid-range Bosch dishwasher, inexpensive Kenmore microwave on a shelf above counter and Dacor 36" cooktop. Everything purchased through Sears. Our contractor passed on their discount to us + we ordered when there were additional discounts offered at Sears. We are very happy with all of them -- we have been in our kitchen for about 3 months and use everything every day. (well, I confess, not both ovens every day) Can't truly speak for the longevity of anything at this point, but....so far, so good and I would purchase any of these again.

We have mostly GE Profile...definitely mid-level. We also have a KA DW, Sharp MW, & VAH hood thrown in the mix. I think they're also mid-level...although maybe not the MW.

In general (and in my experience), I've found that GE makes very good cooking products, not so good laundry products or DW, and OK refrigerators...if you eliminate the ice dispenser, then good refrigerators. So, this is what we have and how I like them and, would I buy them over again...

GE Profile Double Oven with Trivection Technology: This is a great set of ovens! I love the speed cook capability of the upper oven and the convection of the lower. I use both quite a bit (the upper can be used as a convection oven as well and both can be used as a "regular" oven...i.e., no speed cook or convection). The only two things I wish it had that it doesn't are the self-clean oven racks and full extension oven racks. If the GE Monogram version had had them, I might have splurged and got the Monogram (although I don't like the look of it nearly as much as the Profile).

Speaking of GE Monogram, did you know that many of the GE Monograms have equivalent models in the GE Profile line? The main differences are the price and the outside appearance, the functionality and inside components are the same. Occasionally you'll get an extra accessory w/the GE Monogram, but generally not worth the extra cost. Since I much prefer the look of the Profiles over the Monograms that were available at the time, it was a no-brainer for me!

GE Profile Electric Cooktop: We got a mid-level model b/c what I really wanted was induction but it was out of our budget for now...but I want to replace it eventually. It does have one very important/must-have feature that most cooktops from any manufacturer did not have: a bridge element b/w two burners for using a griddle. It also had a nice-to have feature that I'm finding more useful than I thought it would be: a warming element. BTW...this was the only model that had both a bridge element & warming element. In general, I don't think it heats up as well as my old GE Profile Convection range (bought in 1995 & donated when we remodeled). However, I think it does a good enough job. The bridge element works great and, like I said, I find I use the warming element more than I thought I would (especially good for hot chocolate & soup...keeps them very warm but not hot and no boiling away/drying out; I've actually only used the medium & low settings...the high will keep them even warmer, I'm sure). Would I buy it again: Yes but I might have gone with a higher model w/in the GE Profile brand IF I could have found one w/a bridge element. One thing I'm not particularly happy about is the SS frame...it scratches easily and it's not easy to clean around on the cooktop itself. I think I would look for one w/o the frame around it (although, it does catch spills & keeps them from running onto the counter & possibly leaking down under the cooktop & into the drawer below)

GE Profile Warming Drawer: It does what I need it to do. It doesn't have the fancy steamer that some seem to have, but it keeps food warm. If I want the food crispy, I leave it uncovered; if I want it moist, I cover it. Yes, I would buy it again. There is a crisper/humidity control, but I find it works best if I also cover/uncover items along with the control in the WD itself.

GE Profile Refrigerator: We thought long and hard on this one since our old refrigerator was also a GE Profile w/an ice dispenser (top freezer, standard size). We had a lot of problems w/the dispenser and finally stopped using it. But, while I was researching other manufacturers, it seemed they all had their pluses & minuses. So, in the end we went w/the GE Profile again...but without the ice dispenser. We do have a water dispenser. It's a CD FD bottom freezer. It's worked very well and we haven't had any problems with it. Whew! The only complaint I have, and it's minor and applies to all CD refrigerators of comparable size, is that the interior space is rather small compared to our behemoth of our old refrigerator (36"x36" & 35 cu ft). We've adjusted, but I don't think we could have if we hadn't keep our old refrigerator. It's not full, but it's definitely needed. (It's in the basement.)

Sharp MW Drawer: This was our compromise b/w the Dacor built-in I wanted and space constraints. I really wanted the Dacor, but I didn't have any tall or above cabinet room. Installing a standard-type MW undercounter was out of the question for our tall family. So, we ended up w/a Sharp MW drawer. I really like it but I do wish it had the functionality of the Dacor (musical beep, More/Less, doneness selection, recipes, and a few other options). The Sharp is easy to use and does all the standard things well, so no real complaints other than it isn't what I really wanted! If I had to go w/the same setup, I would definitely buy the MW drawer again...but I'd like the newer model that's a little bit bigger and appears to have a couple of new options.

Kitchen Aid Architect Series DW: (equivalent to today's Superba, from what I can tell) This is the one appliance I'm very disappointed with. It only cleans well if it's on "Heavy Duty"...even for light to medium dirty dishes. Silverware still comes out dirty a little too often. This is also the one appliance I didn't pick out...my DH did. He does the dishes, so I let him have a say in the DW. The other thing I don't like about it is that if you have to open it while the cycle is running it splashes water on the surrounding cabinetry. I understand why (b/c the water is being moved around), but you'd think they'd have a "pause" button for me to push b/f opening it. It appears to, but it's only a monitoring pause...it lets you know if you've opened the DW during the cycle (you have to press "resume" to start the cycle back up where it left off). Our old Maytag didn't splash & it automatically started up again after it had been closed again for 30 seconds or so. Would I buy it again? Absolutely not! (I'm actually hoping it dies sooner rather than later so I have an excuse to replace it! I think my DH will let me make the choice next time. I'm thinking Miele, Bosche, or Asko. Although, if it does die, it'll postpone my induction cooktop or front load washer...)

Vent-A-Hood Range Hood: I'm pretty pleased with this. No, it's not "whisper quiet", but it's a fan! Actually it's quite a bit quieter than our old hood even though it has 3 or 4 turns + over 11' of duct run + a conversion from 8" round to 6"x8.5" rectangular duct. If I had it to do over, I would probably get one that had a remote blower and figure out a way to vent it from the roof. It actually looks pretty bad from the backyard...right over our nice bay window!) I might also consider stronger cfms, but my current hood isn't as efficient as it could be if it didn't have all those turns!

OK, this was a lot! But, it does tell you why I picked my appliances & how I feel about them one year later!

HTH!

live_wire_oak

.......A plain GE will still run you 2K, but I wouldn't cheap out with a Frigidaire there, that's for sure.......

Do you see anything wrong with the SS Frigidaire Pro line?

You are lucky to have good taste! Now you
need...Patience, eyes open, Craig's list, E-bay, Yard
sales and a willingness to negotiate can sastify your
Wolfe desire with a simple budget. It might take months
or even years.

There are some GWers who find kitchen stools before
the demo, or appliances to sit in storage. Or a great
sink at overstock or hardware at an outlet or a sale
on their marble.
It can be done. You can do it too!

I can only speak for my Kenmore Elite refrigerator. It retailed for over $2K for the 33" one, but I'm sure you are getting the bigger size. It's the French Door Trio, with water on the outside. I'm so glad I chose that option cause we are drinking more water than before, and it fills water bottles with ease.
The only thing that does bother me is that the left door doesn't close on it's own very good, I realy have to slam it. At the store, they had the larger SS model, and that one had doors that closed so smooth. Mine is the smaller black one, and could be that it was made somewhere else, or so the Sears tech told me when he came out to check it.

The second best thing is that in the black, it's a smooth black metallic, no fingerprint finish on the front. Only the door handle shows them, and that's easy to swipe. The sides are the standard elephant skin, but the front is lovely. Of course I've dented the front of mine already cause it's against the wall where there is chair rail -which is what started the kitchen reno.
It keeps the food very fresh, makes 3 kinds of ice, and makes it super fast, and the bin holds alot. For 3 of us I only have to flip the switch to make ice about once every 2 weeks! I keep it turned off otherwise, so the ice is fresh and there is little noise. It beeps if you have the doors open too long, but you can turn that off. I can't, cause my family is lazy and sometimes doesn't close that left door all the way.
Were it not for that, it would be my perfect fridge.

If you do have to go to Sears, for future reference (I know you probably can't wait that long), but others might find this helpful: They put on, once every 3 to 4 months, a "friends and family" event, where you get 20% off all appliances, and 30% off Kenmore/Kenmore Elite appliances. They don't advertise it, you have to be told by someone who knows. It's usually announced on appliance forums. But, go to your Sears, and ask about it. Tell the sales associate that you would like to be contacted, or do they know when the next one is? Last night a sales person gave me their card and told me to call them at the end of June, as there is likely to be one in July. It's always a one night event, 6-9pm.
Since DH will not let me purchase from Best Buy, and we just can't afford the local, great service appliance store (nothing is EVER on sale, even the Whirlpool stuff), we tend to go to Sears.
For me it all depends on how much doing the vent to the outside thing is going to run me. You all have convinced me that this is just too important to overlook. I didn't get that in my first estimate, so I may have him give me an estimate on that, and it will likely affect my appliance decsions. Meaning, no KA DW and slide in range from the local appliance store at retail price, but Kenmore elite at 30% off!!

Many times you can buy the floor models from Sears when they are making room for the new models. I bought my Whirlpool Gold SS Gas range with warming drawer, all the different burners, etc.. for only $450 from Sears off the floor, regularly priced at $1,200. The bottom black trim was cracked on one side, but I was able to purchase the replacement trim for $20 from the Sears website. Otherwise, it's works great. Always ask if they have floor models for sale.

Just FYI - Sears raises the price from everyday sears to "original" price for the Friends and Family nights - you can often get the same exact price on an ordinary day with the various discounts they offer off the Sears everyday price. If you ask a salesperson they will be upfront about this practice.

Also, while many independent stores don't advertise sales you can often negotiate pretty good discounts - we saved quite a bit on our high end kitchen order and got some freebies thrown in as well. It is always worth asking especially in this economy.

I had the Frigidaire professional double convection ovens for 6 years and my sister has had hers for 8 and we both love (loved) them. They were a great value and perform very well. I did upgrade in my new kitchen and like some of the things in my newer ovens - though they are features that are also available now -unlike 7 years ago - in the mid range models as well.

We have a discount place that has models with minor cosmetic damage sold at a big discount. Look for something like that as well.

MAny of my friends have had nothing but trouble with their Sub Zero's in terms of reliability so you may get a better product going mid-range and there are so many good choices. We got Sub Zero wine refrigerators because of a particular space and I wanted one to have drawers - they flank a wine bar. They are A LOT nosier than our Liebherr main fridge.

Good luck - I wished we had not paid for all our appliances when the economy took such a nosedive mid remodel. I am happy with them but I could have been happy with mid range - except for our Miele built-in Coffee maker and Miele DW - they were worth every penny. Dh is in love with the coffee maker and even my 83 yo mom who is visiting thinks the coffee maker is pretty much the coolest thing ever - even though she accidently presses the wrong button quite frequently - she needs cateract surgery ;-)

I had the same taste/budget conflict!

After doing a LOT of research and doing a lot of driving to showrooms to look at various products (including the GE Cafe line, and the KA and JA lines in that price range, and Bertazzoni and Fisher-Paykel) here's what we ended up with:

Range: NXR DRGB3001- $1899. fabulous 15k burners (same ones used by -I think- Wolf, they're German) but assembled in China, hence the price. Compared side-by-side with Wolf, Viking, etc, the fit and finish is a little less refined, but we are VERY happy with it so far (its in the kitchen but not hooked up yet). We ordered the optional continuous center grate. There's another similar model, even less expensive, with a different door handle. This one looks better with our fridge, though, a little more refined...

Fridge: Jennaire CD FD Eurostyle $1800 (We scoured Craigslist every day for a few months and this was a floor model at a tiny appliance store about an hour and a half away. For the $600 savings it was well worth the drive!)
{{gwi:1891545}}

Dishwasher: Bosch ~$550 after rebates

Range hood: Thermador discontinued model. I bought the hood part at a local appliance store (I asked at all the local appliance stores to keep an eye out for scratch-and-dents, discontinued models, etc of the things I was interested in!)for about $290, and the dual-blower fan on eBay for about $250, so that's a great price for a 600CFM hood (with warming lights, even!) that would have been like $1200 normally.

So, the point is.... if you have the time and energy to put into it, you can definitely find some deals on the stuff you want. I did see floor models and close-outs on Vikings, Subzero, etc on Craigslist while I was looking (but even those were out of my price range!)

HTH

I have a stainless steel Kenmore french door refrigerator 33" standard depth with water inside. It works great! No regrets with this purchase.

I can relate. We are in the same place trying to set a reasonable budget for appliances. All the open houses I have gone to make you think that WOlf/Sub Zero have a total monopoly in my area. I just keep trying to remind myself that if you are a good cook, you can produce an excellent meal on anything, most fridges cool well, and most dishwashers clean well - we have had a lot of summer rental homes with very ordinary appliances and it hasn't been a problem. We have a second fridge in basement which was a cheapo Maytag and is actually fantastic.

I will admit that it's really difficult not to get carried away - those sub zeros and wolf ranges look so great!

I am getting a subzero fridge, however I seriously considered a Lieberr (spelled something like that) For some reason it really intrigued me. I didn't like the Thermador Fridge but would consider the Miele (don't know how price compares to Subzero)Also, the DCS range's were a consideration for a bit. I ruled it out due to a stainless top instead of black. Also, from a serious cooking perspective, I think Capital and/or Blue Star were cheaper and had the look of a Wolf and in some area's better performance ratings.

What's your motivation? The best appliances for serious cooking or looks

I have a Sears 33" FD fridge that retailed for over $2100, and I watched and waited for it to go on sale. (I can be very patient ;^) ) Then when it did, Friends and Family happened that same week, so in the end, I got it for $1500, delivered. I was very happy, and so far, I really like my new fridge. My kitchen may not be done, but I have a kickin' fridge! LOL.

We went with a mix of bosch DW, GE profile induction cooktop, electroulx double wall ovens, and KA fridge. All got many positive reviews (and some not so positive, which seems to be typical for appliances).

Here's a money saving tip, if you choose not to go the ebay or craigslist route--write all your selections down on a piece of paper, fax it to a number of appliance stores, and make it clear that the store with the lowest bid gets your business. We saved about 1500 over the Sears friends and family prices that way.

Also, check out abt appliances. We only bought a micro and toaster from them, but weve been thrilled with their customer service and their prices are reasonable too.

From someone I know who works in Appliances at Sears:
No, you can definitely get a better price on friends and family night. Because you get the day offer and then an extra 10 percent off on some items. If we run specials like groupings (washer/dryer at a low price), it might be better to buy it whenever we have that special. What you won't get friends and family night is the no interest or the delivery rebate offer. Now I'm only speaking of my department, what happens in the clothes and other soft lines that I'm not sure of

Of course they are going to put the price back to original for the sale. It amazes me when people expect the normal say 15% off, then another 20%, and then another 10% of that. That's almost half price, and it isn't going to happen.
Sears F&F gives a total of 28% off Kenmore and K Elite. They take 20% then take another 10% off that new reduced price at the register, so it actually works out to roughly 28%. All other brands are 10% off and then 10% off the reduced price. No special orders.

I'm yet to see a better deal than F&F. If you are getting more than 28% off your Sears applances, I'd love to know the secret!
But, I will say that after looking at the Whirlpool website I noticed that WP's retail price is about $20 lower than what Sears shows the MSRP to be. Now, unless WP hasn't updated their site, that is a rip off to set the original price $20 higher.

All of my kitchen appliances are Kenmore, and honestly, I have NEVER had issues. Just got the Kenmore Elite DW and it's our new star. As a matter of fact, while the kitchen was being renovated, we were able to live at our very wealthy architects house (it's their country home that they very rarely use) and their kitchen was outfitted with top of the line appliances. I have to say mine functioned just as well and in some cases better.

My fridge was about $2000, DW regular price was $1000 - got it for $700 and our range (smoothtop) we bought about 6 years ago for under $1000 and it works beautifully. Just saying...Sears aint' so bad...

We put more bang into the range and less into refrigeration and dw. It depends on how you use your kitchen. I rarely use an oven(the smaller top oven on a Maytag Gemini would probably be fine for 90% of what I do!) so don't need double wall ovens. Most dishwashers will get your dishes clean, the more expensive ones have more options and easier loading. A fridge is a fridge to me but I wanted a side by side due to back problems.

So, we bought a Capital 30" 5 burner range with self clean and rotisserie. I use a lot of smaller pans so this works well for me. A floor model VAH because it looked nice and had the power we needed, and I didn't care if it was loud. A Bosch fridge -- it was that or Jenn-Air, and I picked Bosch because I was getting a Bosch dw, figured they'd "match" better (not that important to me, but there you have it.)

We put more money into the appliances we thought we'd use the most. So in our case we splurged on the Wolf 4 burner/griddle rangetop and Wolf hood. We then saved by getting the LG cab depth fridge. I found the FP double convection ovens on sale through a tip here in the kitchen forum, saved about $1000 on them and had them shipped across the country. We got the Asko dw for the efficiency and quiet.

The biggest savings alone was on the LG and not getting the Wolf full range, but splitting it up with the rangetop and FP ovens.

You should also check dent and scratch sales...even the high end appliance dealers have them, usually once or twice a year. At least here in the Seattle area you have to go early and get in line...but you can find some incredible bargains, and the dents or scratches are in places you normally cannot see.

The problem with Wolf/SZ is that the local distributors control the prices, and you cannot buy across distributor lines. For example, I found the SZ 650 was $1000 cheaper in Chicago than it was in Seattle, but I could not order it from a Chicago dealer unless I was going to rent a truck myself and drive it back on I-90. That would eat up the savings and take 3 days, LOL.

However...you can occasionally find cheaper deals in other cities, and as long as you are willing to ship it yourself, you can take advantage of that savings, even on regionally controlled brand names.

In regards to shopping on ebay and craigslist, I would be concerned about warranties, service, etc.. Can anyone weigh in on that aspect, Thanks,

I researched and found a local appliance store, family owned, that services some brands of appliances. I chose a kitchenaid refrigerator, counter depth, french door, bottom freezer(I loved the one without ice in the door, but my 11yo wanted it so much, so I got that one.) I liked the quality, size, reviews, and more slender handles. For an electric cooktop, I chose the Bosch. I got the one with the knobs in front for a sleeker look. I am not replacing DW as of yet. I had a woman helping me with my selections and she answered many questions and seemed sincere in guiding me to ones that were best for my money kind of thing. It took me a long time to choose!

If you go the Ebay/CL route, ask for the serial number of the appliance before you buy it. My daughter purchased a Wolf oven and used it about 2 months when the electronic board burned out. The repairman discovered the model# and serial # had been removed. He said the store should have destroyed the unit, but didn't. Then an employee probably repaired whatever was wrong with it, and sold it as a floor model. So, they don't have any warranty at all, and any parts that are needed are a lot harder to figure out.

The August issue of Consumers Reports is out and it's the annual kitchen and bath issue. They rate many kitchen appliances. It would be worth looking at. You could even look at it at the library.

I got my KA panel ready DW & my JennAir smooth top, touch controls, at the Sears F&F sale last August. Both had to be special ordered, they priced matched (and beat the price by 10%) then took the F&F discount. I also got the free delivery rebate for both appliances.

I agree with sunnyflies. Check out your local appliance store for a floor model. We were able to save nearly $2000 off a new, never used, still has full warranty Wolf double oven. Exactly the one I had been dreaming about! They were remodeling and decided to take the high end things off the floor because of the economy. Now they send people to the distributer location to check everything Wolf sells.

I have seen this done often, call local dealers to see if they have any specials like this as they are often unadvertised.

Good luck!

We got mostly Bosch appliances. We got ours from E-bay at a significant savings.

Guys. The Sears Kenmore appliances are all made by someone else. If you ask at Sears, they'll tell you by whom. So our Kenmore DW is made by Bosch. Our Kenmore range hood is a Braun. Our Kenmore counterdepth SS fridge (that looks builtin because we had the cabinet sized to the fridge)is a Frigidaire. Do check out reviews and ratings for each appliance. Sears is great for returns. Great for sales. Expensive for repair insurance.

Consumer Reports... Once I believed them but now I do not. We bought their top rated dishwasher. When the pump failed after 3 years, we learned it was connected to the motor and both parts had to be replaced, even though nothing was wrong with the motor. The cost of the repair was about $75.00 cheaper than a new dishwasher.

Just saying, I wonder how many companies pay them for great reviews. I haven't researched this, just had one experience. I've never had problems with anything since I stopped listening to them and began listening to actual consumers.