I understand the two dishwashers and sinks (not terribly observant but I remember some of the laws of kashrut) but I am wondering if this seems like the best layout given how you use your kitchen (it may well be). I tend to think of pushing sinks out to the edges as something more common in compact kitchens. It does give you a decent prep zone on both the meat and dairy sides and easy access to clean-up I suppose. On the other had one side is very far from the fridge. I know there is savoury dairy but are you sure it wouldb't be better to do the dairy near the ovens?

Anna;

I am sure that you are going to get many opinions here. The chimney is what it is. Many people wonder what to do with these corners -- lazy susans, magic corners . . . you're lucky -- you can build the adjoining cabs up to it!

The problem with building pantries out ot 30" is that stuff gets lost in cabinets that are that deep! Instead, how about recessing the frig into the wall behind it, making it appear counter depth, and keeping the pantries at 24". If you are interested in doing this, as many of us have, we can link you to pictures.

I'm jealous! Two DW! Where are you planning on doing prep? Other than your island, it doesn't look like you have much counter space. If I am estimating correctly, it looks like you only have about 3' of counter on either side of your range. Do you plan on using your island for prep work?

What does the dotted rectangle on your island indicate? What are your plans for the area on the other side of the door from the oven?

And I know I'm asking alot of questions, but how wide is the corridor between you DW/Range wall and your island? It looks like you are planning for alot of action on that side of the kitchen -- you need to make sure that there is enough room so that traffic doesn't get backed up. Hopefully Rhome or Buehl or one of the other experts with pitch in with some suggestions!

caryscott: I don't really see where else we could put the fridge; the outside wall is all French doors and windows so it can't go there. And the plumbing is already on the range wall. Most of the vegetable prep will be done on the island with only actual milk/meat products being prepped to either side of the range. I'd rather have both areas near the range.

rjr: Don't be jealous; in a kosher kitchen you need two dishwashers, one for dairy and one for meat! The second dishwasher is the ONE item DH cares about for the remodel. :-)

The actual pantry shelves wouldn't be 30" deep; I'd put some racks on the backs of the doors for lightweight items and we were planning to have pullouts for the heavier things. I wish I could recess the fridge but the most I could recess it would be 3" and then we'd have to build a header over the cut studs (fridge will be situated against a load-bearing wall).

Most prep will be done on the island, and I'll have almost 3' of prep space to either side of the range plus 7'6" on the island. It should be okay. The dotted rectangle is for a pot rack over the island. On the other side of the wall ovens there will be a glass-sided cabinet sitting on the counter to hold glassware and serving pieces.

The aisle between the island the range wall will be 3'6" deep. I plan to keep traffic out with very sharp chef's knives. :-)

When I mentioned before having an armoire type of pantry with counter space, I was thinking of something like this:

I had this situation and one of the base cabinets had a small blind that extended back to the chimney. It was shallow enough to be accessible and deep enough to be useful. In your case it would be the oven run of cabinets.

The upper most sink is going to be difficult for a right hander. I wonder if you would gain by angling the counter slightly and using a D shaped sink to get your elbow away from the wall. I don't like random angles but it might function better in this kitchen.

A blind is a possibility. I'm less worried about that run than the pantry wall. I just can't decide what to do with it.

Florantha mentioned the sink issue a few days ago when I posted my layout in another thread. I decided to reduce the pullouts on either side of the range from 12" to 9" and put the extra space on the outside of the sinks. I will do some experimenting to see if that will be enough room; I hate to reduce the sink size from a 21" interior to less.

Is this a concealed chimney flue or one that has old fashioned brick that will be exposed? Is the refrig a double-door model?

Have you looked at bifold doors? Lived with them?

If you had a floor to ceiling pantry of roll-out units, consider making the space in front of flue an available countertop to receive items going into and out of pantry, perhaps in conjunction with a couple tuck-in tray + cookie sheet storage if there's an oddball vertical spot.

If you consolidate the pantry, I'd suggest upper cabs and lowers with a countertop between. This space can be useful in the fullness of time, esp if you have growing children. Add a pull-out board there and you've got a baking station, a beverage center, a party bar, a flower arranging station, a place to display your family silver and polish it right there. Pull-out of wood is a wonderful place to receive and launch hot items from oven.

If you're using custom cab people, you can get continuous space on the shelves within a 2-door or 3-door upper cab front, but the shelves may have to be fixed. Upper shelves are better for dishes than major pantry, altho lowest upper shelves are good for small stuff--relishes soups etc.--and taller people can use upper shelves for cereals, etc. Narrow roll-out upper units allow you to go up the wall and access canned goods and such as far up as you can reach.

OT
Anna, interesting that you've added plunk space on the outsides of the sinks. I think that's wise. Gives you elbow room, literally.

I haven't lived with bifold doors in often-used spaces. I'm not crazy about the idea but it seems like a somewhat feasible solution for the space.

Your idea for counterspace sounds like the pic I posted above, which I'd love to do. But I think I'd need the bifold doors to access the space; otherwise the doors are too big to swing out into the space there, especially if they'll be left open to work there. If I can't make it work, I may do a step-in pantry like natal's (think that's the name?). I will have to decide soon though as they're framing this week.

And yes, thank you so much for that tip on plunk space. It was a great catch on the layout and I really appreciate it!

I'd worry more about being up against the wall than the size of the sinks. You can go smaller, esp since you have 2 sinks. Our sink is 18"w x 16"d and works fine. I am not sure if your tweaking has already solved this, but the diagram looks uncomfortable sink-wise.

If you go deeper on either side of the chimney, that will constrain the other side. I'd keep it as is and put shelves on the chimney for storage/display. I am not sure if it is exposed brick or not, but it would work no matter whioh surface it is. With the chimney smaller than expected, you will have more counter to work on next to the oven.
You may want to consider making the pantry by the doorway narrower and the one on the other side wider. It would keep the majority of your stuff in one pantry and leave the other side for more precise items, such as the dishes (or a can or spice pullout). If you put the dishes there, it makes them easy to load and unload from the nearby dw. If you have 2 equal sides, you may spend a lot of time trying to remember which side things are on (more so for the non cooks in the family and guests).

Diana, it's a kosher kitchen, which means different dishes/utensils must go into designated sinks; I can't use them interchangeably. And on the religious holidays, when we have lots of guests and dirty dishes, I can't run the dishwasher...so it's super-important to me to have sinks with good capacity (but not too deep because then my back begins to ache).

The chimney is exposed brick, which I had thought about keeping, but now that it's exposed, it's not as neatly mortared as the part in the basement. Sad, because I do like exposed brick and a little touch of it would have been nice.

We have no non-cooks in the family. :-) We do have XY types who can't be bothered to remember where things go and put them wherever is convenient instead. I was planning to keep dishware in the one nearest the door but am now considering changing all the nonfridge space to one long pantry. Most of the dishware will be in a plate rack and on shelves near the DW anyway, and I like the idea of having more space for food storage. I feel very insecure without a well-stocked pantry.

I know this isn't much of a helpful statement, but as a kosher cook, I'm not crazy about the layout. I need to think about this a bit.

Are you willing to move plumbing or anything?

I would shift the cooktop over to leave a larger prep space on one side and put the second sink and dishwasher in the island. This way you keep your landing zone near the cooktop, but you have the island for meat and counter for dairy (or vice versa). But I don't use much pareve, and you might.

Saw, I initially rejected this layout because I didn't think it would work. I had to really go over it in my head a lot before I viewed it as workable, but once I did, I was okay with it. I agree with you that second sink and DW in the island would be better but DH really likes it this way and doesn't want to change it. He objects to turning around to an island sink with pots of boiling water when someone is unexpectedly standing in your way (which happens a lot in our family). I didn't think it was as big a problem as he thinks it is, but he feels very strongly about it.

Also forgot to mention that the counter space in the upper right will also be a meat prep area. It will mainly be the place to set the electric blech on Shabbos but will be conveniently right next to the deck door, so when we grill it will be a handy space to slice and serve grilled meats.

I really appreciate your thoughts as a kosher cook. Hope judithsara weighs in as well.

Anna: I like the idea of the pantry cabs moved together, and putting them behind doors, with a base cab/ counter and open shelves on top. Bifold doors can be a PITA, though. Would it work to put those doors that slide in to the sides...like the kind they put on TV cabinets in hotel rooms? You lose a bit of space on each side, but think they'd work well for the top of the pantry and be far sturdier for the long run than bifolds.

I think they'd work great except that no one but me would ever close them. I think I'm going to have to learn to live with that. :-(

Thanks melissastar! It's a great idea.

Anna, have you considered having the bricks repointed?

I like melissastar's idea way better than bifold doors, which are nothing but a pain.

That corner by the chimney is apt to be nice and warm. I have no idea what your climate is, but I'd kill for something like that to proof bread or grow plants in the winter when the windowsills are too cold. Can you make use of that feature somehow? Shelves for plants? A built-in box to warm plates in the winter? Something else?

Does a kosher kitchen require separate pantries for meat and dairy, too? Or is packaged food separated enough by the packaging itself?

Is there a special set of dishes used only at Passover? I ask because the storage of those might be satisfactory in the awkward to reach places in the cabs surrounding the chimney flue. If you were only going to pull them out once a year, it wouldn't be too onerous and you would use the oher more-available space to make day to day life better.

I was wondering how it would be if you changed the strict symmetry of the range and sink wall by putting the right-hand DW on the right of the sink. This would allow the space over the DW to double as elbow room for the sink. Then you could either divide the remaining space between the range and sinks evenly, or choose to have one of the spaces a little smaller. Is prep for meat or dairy less space-consuming? I agree you don't need to have matching sized sinks - is either meat or dairy associated with bigger pots? Which sink would you use to you wash produce and hands or drain pasta, etc? I'm not sure where this is done in a kosher kitchen. I would suggest that that sink be the larger one and the other one by smaller. Also you could choose a smaller DW (there are 18" ones available).

Although you said your husband was against it, it really does make more sense to have an assymetrical sink arrangement with one sink on the island and the other on the range/sink wall. That will allow more flexible space utilization. Are his objections aesthetic (i.e. preferring strict symmetry, or not wanting washing-up done on eating surfaces or additional cost) or are there religious reasons?

Maybe have the dairy/general purpose/veggie sink/DW on the island and the meat sink on the right near the doors where your outdoor grill is. Or vice versa.

Where does prep of something that is neither meat nor dairy (vegetable salad, for instance) happen? Is your isalnd primarily a prep and plating area or is it mostly an eating surface?

Please excuse me if I have suggested something that's clueless w/r/t kosher laws.

L

plllog: No, not really. I have so many expenses with this that doing the exposed brick is definitely expendable.

warmfridge: I'm not sure how warm it is there, but that's an interesting idea. At the moment I'm considering having the GC put in a recessed area to store our oversized coffee mugs since that will be the main coffee prep area (unless DH wins the battle to have the coffeepot on the range wall).

Liriodendron: You're asking a lot of good questions! I could possibly put the Passover dishes there but really there's soooo much that gets dragged down and used for that week that most of us just sort of live in a camping atmosphere. Most of the regular storage cupboards just get taped up and not used since it would be too much work to pack everything away.

I might consider switching the sink and DW positions if I could put a cutting board over the sink but I really dislike the idea of having to do that. We do probably an equal amount of dairy and meat meals, and though I could wash greens for a salad at either sink theoretically, I try to think of all components of any meal as meat or dairy because it helps me avoid making stupid mistakes that I then have to call the rabbi to fix (if it's fixable). I don't want to reduce the size of either sink (or DW) since we don't do primarily one or the other.

DH's objection to putting the sink in the island is purely based on safety w/r/t hot pots.

At this point I'm pretty happy with most of the layout except for minor tweaking. What to do with the pantry area is my major dilemma.

Anna,

I think I get the safety of hot pots and the island counter (if you moved one sink to there)... if for some reason a hot pot needs to move from stove, and if appropriate counter was not immediately at hand then said hot pot has to travel across the aisle to the island to its correct (meat/dairy) landing spot.

I don't know if this would be aceptable, but could you consider a pull-out counter/landing space by the stove so you could avoid carrying the pot? Of course you would still have a "main" designated counter space for each type of food, but for one type (not the one that had the lion's share of counter space beside stove) you would still have a convenient and close by, but otherwise retractible counter tucked under the main one. Don't know whether that would pass muster, though.

I'm really trying to find a way to get your right-hand sink out of its corner. I had one like that once and loathed it!

L

Ideas. The new space around the chimney could be accessible-ized by making it into an appliance garage (facing the oven ; rolltop front). An irregular space. The coffeepot there.

"... better to put the fridge next to the entry door and build a longer run of cabinets ..."
I agree.

"... make them 30" deep to match the depth of the fridge and allow easier ... "
Could work as suggested, if you put the appliance garage suggested above. No space lost from the counter up. Loss of space below the counter.

this is from reading your first post; i didn't read the other posts.

One thing I was never sure about is if you are allowed to load a dw on the holidays. I know you can't run it, but can you use it for stashing dishes and dirty pots? If you don't push buttons, is that ok?
We learned how wonderful large Rubbermaids can be during this reno. We'd stash a few days of dishes in one and then I'd pre-wash & scrub them in the shower before finishing them in our bathroom's pedestal sink. It may work for you on the occasions you have lots of people and can't wash right away (the stashing into a Rubbermaid part). What is good is you have a perfectly good reason for not having your dishes all washed and put away.

I have no solution if your sinks need to be this size and need to be on the same run. I just would feel uncomfortable up against a wall or window. I wish I could see a better way to put them...

Liriodendron: I will think it over. Most of the time we throw everything in the DW so it's only problematic on the holidays. I will try to do some sort of mockup tonight with the laundry sink where we're washing dishes to get a better idea of what it will be like.

David: Thanks; that might make a very good home for the KA mixer.

Diana: DWs which have electronics that come on when opened are a problem. If you can disable that they're usually okay but really strict people will check with Star-K or another authority before purchasing. F&P used to be certified but now I see it's not the Star-K list anymore. :-( The Rubbermaid tubs in the shower is a brilliant idea!

WRT the corner pantry area, I am now waffling between two solutions:

1. Build a pantry unit with 24" base cabs and 12" cabinets above that appear to sit on the counter. When opened, there would be space at the bottom for appliances and coffeepot but space for dry goods and glasses above. The fridge will stick out like a sore thumb next to it but I can live with it till it breaks and then replace it with a counter-depth model. There was a picture in a saved thread of wonbyherwits' pantry:
http://starpoohonline.com/pantries.pdf
If I did this I think I can get maximum lenth of the run because it can wrap around the corner to the wall oven run.

2. Build a step-in pantry similar to natal's in this thread:
http://ths.gardenweb.com/forums/load/kitchbath/msg0802070524922.html
I could build it 30" deep but would have to make it shorter to allow the wall oven run to be the maximum length because otherwise it will be too short to be useful. And I will have a backup pantry at the base of the stairs for less-used items.

Other less feasible idea would be to run the step-in pantry as far as it can go, leave the DR door in its original place (near the chimney on the bottom right wall, where the wall oven run is going) and have an 11' run to work in wall ovens, baking space and servery. Turned it over and over in my head but couldn't really come up with a configuation I liked.

I'm really torn between a cabinetry pantry that would give me counter space and a perfect coffee spot, but look a little silly next to the 30" deep fridge and a step-in pantry which would give me more food storage (and save money on cabinetry!) but feel a little tight. I think I'm leaning toward the former--what do y'all think? It would look less silly at 24" as a freestanding piece which could work since I'm going for an English look anyway. Something like this, only with the counter raised to 32" or 36":

{{!gwi}}

Oh, and one more thing? LOSING MY MIND.

Ok...not a hijack, but I've just gotta ask: Dianalo...when you prewashed and scrubbed the dishes in the shower, were you TAKING a shower? I have this very funny vision in my head of a time management consultant....

I don't know how helpful these pics will be, but here they are. They're at least an improvement over the old kitchen!

Here's the layout for reference:

http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll193/chana61/chimneycorner.jpg
View of bottom right corner with the chimney and space where fridge and pantry will go:
{{!gwi}}

Better view of the chimney:
{{!gwi}}

Wall where ovens and china cabinet will go (the door gets moved over):
{{!gwi}}

Window wall:

Range wall:
{{!gwi}}

That brick's not a liability, it's a feature!

fwiw, Julia Child had some kind of bin/cab in lowers that she stashed dirty stuff into so that it was removed visually from the rest of the kitchen. I read about her kitchen years ago in New Yorker mag.

I want to use a similar layout on the wall with the two sinks and stovetop can you show some pictures of the completed job? Are you happy with the layout on that wall?