Are you sure that the first guy was giving you a "bid" not an "estimate"? Because that certainly sounds like an estimate, not the basis of a contract.

I think it is to be expected that the subs would see the house, work with the drawings, and produce their own bids which the GC would add to with the things that he does including his profit. It does take a lot of time. I don't know why his bid is "rough" however unless it is just a matter of refining it -- removing things you don't want, adding things he might have missed.

Apparently the time-consuming aspect of preparing these careful bids is one reason why contractors sometimes are not willing to do competitive bids at all.

YOu're right--they were estimates. But the second was so close to what I thought a bid would be and the first so different. I can see why GCs don't want to bother. But the problem is I do need more than one decent bid and so I will have to say no to someone who has done all this work...oh well.

Don't want to hijack your thread but have a question (or two) for you or whoever else can respond. We are in the process of waiting for 3 different GCs to come back with bids on our renovation project. (We had previously contacted 2 other GCs who just never bothered to respond.) It has been approximately 4-5 weeks since DH met with #1, 3-4 weeks since DH met with #2 & #3. #1 said it would take him about 3 weeks to get back with us and DH didn't ask #2 or #3 about how long it would take. In your dealings, how long did it take for the two GCs to get back with you regarding a bid? I would have thought we would have heard something by now, even if it was along the lines that they were not or were still interested in putting a bid in but would need additional time. Any experiences anyone would like to share?

Well, it doesn't sound like it's going to be that much work for the one person to go from an estimate to a bid because it's so detailed.

You don't actually need to get more than one bid. I know it sounds crazy but that's what my architect said and I thought she was crazy but we did it that way anyway. The reason: if you know the person's work, you like working with the person, the person works well with the architect, etc.

farmhousebound- I felt the same way - I thought we would hear back from the GC asap - at least that is how I feel I do work. So it was at least 3 weeks until we heard from him - I contacted him a couple of times in between with some questions and to remind him that we are still around :-)

I am impatient, and I am having lots of trouble with this process in that respect, waiting around for the KD to tell me what my new configuration costs, etc! But we are FINALLY close to ordering everything and in the end I know it is worth it to wait. But there were days when I was about to start over from scratch with new people. Maybe it is a good sign that they are really busy. And not that they are lazy...

To top it off, I was stood up by the TV repair guy tonight - he got tied up in other jobs...

Holly - Our bids took about 10 days to 2 1/2 weeks to get to us and I got SIX bids to the level of detail of your second guy. There's just no way to tell whether bids are truly apples-to-apples (i.e, are you responsible for appliances, do you have an allowance, is there a set amount and then an upcharge for everything over, OR does the quote include installation of cabs or not, do you have an allowance for plumbing, etc, etc etc). I would be VERY wary of anything based on square footage, estimate or not. As you know, in areas like the ones we live in (the W-towns and N-towns, Holly you know what I mean ;-) ), even a small job can cost well into the 6-figures and yet large jobs where it's just adding a box/new space onto a house can be done very reasonably - the devil is always in the details and you can't seriously evaluate one number compared to another without knowing specs (hollow-core doors? 6-panel doors? brass handles? 6" cans or 4" cans? Line or Live voltage lighting? What short-term work will be done to establish a temp kitchen - move electrical? computer lines? etc) - in other words, get a minimum of 3 full bids and make sure the details are all laid out for you!

Mnhockeymom, that's exactly why I thought the first estimate was so useless. I am trying hard to make reasonable decisions and reuse things where we can..I guess I thought I wasn't getting enough credit for that, lol!

It is totally depressing to me that this is a six-figure job and we are adding on about 50 square feet. Seriously.

About the contractors getting back, the expensive one (who we will probably use...fern4, I am glad to hear your input on this, maybe I won't get more bids) took a few weeks to put together the rough bid. But we were in touch, he was in touch with the architect, and it was over Christmas, plus the architect and I were still making changes (like now :)) and so I didn't feel abandoned.

The other guy took 3-4 weeks and finally sent me the estimate (read: math) after I called him a couple of times.

I talked with another guy about a different job, doing our basement. He sent over his electrical sub also. Nice guys but I never heard from either of them. I think I sent signals I didn't really want to do the work (this was when I was in sticker shock from the kitchen estimates).

I know all about small additions with kitchens that equal big bucks! Although mine is a little larger than 50 square feet, but not by much. It is depressing. I feel like we followed our architect's lead and got led down a rosy path but also got some very good professional judgment (as well as nice work) so it's confusing.

If the estimate is based on the architect's drawings and specifications then it should be apples to apples in comparing the bids. If you haven't completed decisions on things like appliances and fixtures you can get all the bids without those (which you can get costs for easily anyway) just to make sure they are pricing the same thing.

In our case the architect said that the different firms they recommended were all going to come in around the same cost and the same quality and since we really liked one over the others that's who we went with to get a bid and move forward (we're supposed to start in June).

The problems for us really started with the one *estimate* we got (different GC) which was terribly LOW compared to reality. This was what we based our initial decisions on. This started us on the path to having plans drawn up that completely and overwhelming exceeded our budget.

Now we're in what I hope are our last throes of making changes to get ready to rumble.

By the way, the guy who did the low-balled estimate later would not bid the job unless either he was the only bid we were getting (of course we could still have rejected him and moved on) OR we paid him $3,500 to prepare the bid. It would have been interesting to have had him bid on the job since I think his estimate was 50% off (a poor basis for us to have made decisions)! Later we found out that the architect expected that GC's bid would be off by 20%.

What drives me crazy is when I say, we have to downscale because of $$,so let's do X instead, but then our architect (who is a dear friend--don't get me wrong) says, but you won't like X, are you sure you don't want Y? And then later I will say, I really want A, not B, this is a priority, and the arch. says, but A is expensive, and I thought you wanted to downscale...aargh!

when I first got this bee in my bonnet about a renovation, I said, it's a tweak. And DH said, this is at least 150K what you're talking about. I said he was crazy...he has been very good about not rubbing it in :)

Fern4, where are you? where mnhockeymom and I are, they think everyone is made of money. Recession my foot.

Well, in my experience architects can tend to design projects that cost much more than intended because they usually design to an ideal (which can look awesome but cost a LOT - I am speaking from experience here and am NOT trying to bash architects - just a personal observation). After a lot of fits and start what I did to get estimates was to draw up a budget for all of the stuff I'd be ordering myself (cabinets, counters, appliances etc) and solicit a bid just for the construction elements. I used the kitchen design we decided on when talking to contractors. When I did get the bid we went with the guy spelled out EACH and EVERY item and how much it would cost - others gave me a bottom line number and no details. The good thing about getting it spelled out piece by piece is that it allows you to hone in on areas where you can adjust the price more easily. One other thing (and don't take offense, please) - if an architect is telling you not to get multiple estimates for the work you want done, they are doing you a disservice. In what other area of your life would you spend this amount of $$ and not comparison shop. The truth is, construction costs can vary by tens of thousands so it would be behoove you to shop around. One other tip - if you are living in an expensive/high rent district go outside of your immediate location to get bids if you can - there is certainly a markup in high end markets. You'd be surprised at how many capable and cost friendly contractors will travel for a good job.

The architect we are working with recommended 3 weeks for a GC bid. Any less and there is not enough time to come up with good numbers and any longer and they put off working on the bid too long to do an accurate bid.

Hollylh, Pacific NW where we too are made of money. Apparently.

Afr66, I absolutely do not take offense. What will really make you laugh: our contract with the architect is a percentage of the actual construction cost.

What can I say, it's a LONG story.

At this point I just feel bad about soliciting more bids when I am pretty sure I won't use those GCs. I haven't signed anything or paid anything to the guy I think we will use, but I feel I have sent a lot of signals that he's the one. I guess I will get one more and if they're really different then I will reassess.

Afr66, I think you're right about getting someone from further away to possibly lower costs. The basement guy was like that...might try to resurrect him.

It's good to discuss this with such sensible people.

Have to chime in here...

I recently did a DR/Kit Reno in the Northern NJ but can't really use that experience since my DB did all of the construction except for the new electric. I know I got a good price so that is unhelpful to all of you but:

We are a construction cost estimating firm and even though the majority of our work is in the commercial line we do have one client who does bid on a fair amount of residential high end work. These projects are always designed by an architect and they put the project out to be bid by a select group of contractors that they have worked with in the past. The contractor then submits a bid in a given amount of time, usually a 3 week date and then the low bids are assessed for thoroghness and the job awarded based on the numbers and the knowledge the contractor has included all of the work on the plans.

Is this not something your architect can do? Many of these residential projects are in the price range you listed with some even lower.

If you have plans with details written on them specifying the work to be done than any competent contractor should be able to give you a price on the job.

I'm not sure of your location and maybe that is some of the issue but idk, things aren't the best here economically and i know we are still bidding on residential stuff.

Maybe the contractors that gave you an estimate(instead of a bid proposal) do not normally do projects of this size? Maybe you need to find a firm that does projects more in line with yours, dollar wise.

HTH