This is how I feel with my SD. Her mom keeps doing things that disappoint and hurt her. She cries all the time over it. I've had her in counseling for months and having her tell mom how she feels is one thing the counselor suggested. However, your SD did that and you can't always predict how someone will react. I feel so bad for your SD. I don't know if my SD has told her mom. The counselor suggested it to SD and we are reluctant to facilitate it out of fear her mom will react like your SD's mom. If she's going to tell her mom, she needs to do it on her own and hasn't told us if she has.

One of the things we've done is buying SD a journal. We got her one with a lock and told her that she can write about her feelings & thoughts. We can't control what her mom does but we can make sure she knows she's loved by us.

My SD is sort of going through the same thing, except her mom is now living w/ BF and he has three kids that live in the same town so she thinks that her mom sees them more and might be doing more for them. We don't know how much he sees his kids, but we do know it's supposed to be EOW as long as he stays clean and sober. There's already jealousy issues as his daughter is a little younger than my SD.

Well my sd calmed down and when her mom called today she did want to talk. So, they talked and while they were on the phone my sd came to me and asked me to make her some tea for her sore throat. When she addressed me she said "mom will you make me some tea". I guess her mom made some comment because my sd was like yes your my mom. Then my sd was like "no, your not on speakerphone-I swear!" A little while later my sd was telling her mom "no, you do not call me every day". I guess her mom kept insisting that she calls her everyday and nobody tells her because my sd came and asked me with her mom on the phone if her mom calls everyday and we forget to tell her. I said nope, when your mom calls we either bring you the phone or give you the message, there has NEVER been a time where your mom called and you did not know about it.
Then my sd was telling her mom how much it hurt her feelings when her mom yelled at her on the phone the other day and her mom must have tried to convince her she was not yelling because after a few times of my sd saying "you did yell" she started saying "well maybe I am just remembering it wrong".

I did not ask what that was all about, but I am pretty sure I already know. Soon after my sd told her mom the other line was ringing and she had to go. She brought me the phone and said "that was just in time...saved by the other line!"

The nerve of that poor excuse for a mother badgering her daughter and lying to her. These calls can not be healthy for my sd. So what if her daughter calls me mom....she threw her responsibilities away a long time ago. She has not come to pick up her daughter since July! So, if her daughter feels close to me and began calling me mom that is her own fault for not paying attention to her daughter. I am the mom in this case. Since my dh and I were dating seriously I have been the one doing all the mom things with my sd while her bm let her down time and time again. She would make plans and then not show up or call and tell my sd excuse after excuse. After a while my sd would make up excuses when her mom did not show up for a scheduled visit. My sd is to the point now where she has been let down enough and knows that her mom is not doing what a mom should and now her mom is trying to confuse her and make her believe things did not happen. And trying to lie and say we are not relaying messages.

Would you let phone calls like these go on? Court papers do not say anything about allowed phone calls. Since she never showed up for the custody hearing years ago the papers do not even grant her regular visitation. She pays no cs, school costs, clothing costs, activity fees, insurance or dr. visit costs, hot lunch costs, nothing! My dh has just always been accommodating and let his ex take their daughter when she wanted, which was not much!
Should he allow these brainwashing calls to go on? It is hurting sd.

If you think its hurting her now, just watch and see how hurt she gets if you try to cut her mother out of her life.

Your husband seems to be fairly mature about this. He is allowing mom to have maximum contact with her child,b ecausehat is what is best for the child.

What makes YOU think you have the right to decide what is best?

Children who are cut off from their parent almost always resent it later on. This isnt your issue. You ought to get a grip on your condemnation of mom, and just stay out of it. The girl needs whatever she can get of her mom, even if it doesnt measure up to what you think is right.

To me, this is just another one sided story, and just another case of a power struggle. Its not your place. Its not your decision. ANd if you really wanted what is best for SD, you wouldnt even DREAM of trying to cut mom out the way you are.

she did not say she has the right to decide what is best ... she as someone who loves a little girl who is repeatedly being hurt by someone who should never hurt her, is asking for advice to try and help make the hurt go away. Shame on you and everyone else on this forum who continually attacks those who simply want to try and help the innocent that are their lives.

"Would you let phone calls like these go on? Court papers do not say anything about allowed phone calls. Since she never showed up for the custody hearing years ago the papers do not even grant her regular visitation. She pays no cs, school costs, clothing costs, activity fees, insurance or dr. visit costs, hot lunch costs, nothing! My dh has just always been accommodating and let his ex take their daughter when she wanted, which was not much!
Should he allow these brainwashing calls to go on? It is hurting sd"

she is contemplating trying to cut mom completely out of the childs life. SHe is suggesting that contact be cut off, because she doesnt like to see the child hurt when mom doesnt live up to expectations.

Her husband, the childs father, is mature enough to realize that mom is the other parent and the child benefits by knowing both parents as often as possible. She is the one who has a problem with it. Her motives may be noble, as she claims she doesnt want to see the child hurt. But her suggested response would cause far far more hurt than the child currently experiences.

I have heard the same self righteous excuse coming from moms , who try to cut dad out of the childs life after a divorce.

Bottom line... the child has two parents, no matter what you may think of the other parent, to try to unilaterally make a decision to take one parent out of the childs life, for any reason other than something criminal, will severely damage the child and lead to future resentment and further problems in that child.

I am not disagreeing that she hurts to watch her stepchild be disappointed. But I didnt hear her ask for advice, I heard her ask what people think about her, the stepmom, trying to cut the mom out.

FOr the record, I think my stepchildrens mother is a nutcase. She is, in my opinion, verbally and emotionally abusive to the kids. She is also on record, and on the state child abuse registry for being physically abusive at least once to one of the kids ( reported by the school to CPS). BUT... she is STILL their mother. Children, especially preteeen and early teen kids, see themselves in their parents. To deprive them of the parent, because you feel they are hurting the child, is very hurting to the child, and will rightfully garner resentment later.

I think its a reprehensible idea. Shame on YOU for thinking there is something okay with it.

As SM's we can not do anything right in a BM's world. Even though most of us are BM's.

The children should just sit in their rooms and have no contact with anyone other than biological relatives.

We will never be good enough for anyone. We are lower than low. We chose to love a man who has children and I know shocking ... but we actually grew to love their children as well... and cannot believe someone anyone would treat their children that way ... but if you stick up for them you are wrong. Only parents know best when it comes to children. Millions of social workers, judges, doctors, teachers anyone who "gets paid" to interact with children, etc... are just fooling themselves they don't have a clue whats in the best interest of the children. Only that child's mother and father know what is best. Everyone else should just ignore any child who is not their own ...let them fend for themselves until their "real" parent is available.

Do you consider a couple phone calls a week maximum contact?

Not trying to cut mom out ... just cut out the guilt trip... children don't know how to pack for such trips.

Do you go on a trip with out the proper equipment? headed to alaska take a bathing suit? heading to hawaii take skis?

Cawfee, you certainly seem to read a lot in my post that isnt there. Its so nice to have someone put words in my mouth. SInce I am a stepmom, and a mom, which category do I fall into?

Sometimes I think people in here ( on both sides of a family) are deliberately obtuse and refuse to see a point merely because it doesnt fit their situation.

Of course a few phone calls a week are not maxium contact. However, if you would READ what she posted, her husband allows mom to see the kids ( and I presume talk to them) whenever she wants to. That is what maximum contact means.

Courts USUALLY decide custody in favor of the parent who wishes to permit maximum contact between both parents and the child. In over forty states, it is one of the factors considered in a custody evaluation.

The OPs husband seems to understand this, to his credit. STepmom does not. I wont cast aspersions on her motives, as I believe they are probably truly out of concern for her SD, but I will comment on her desire to try to cut mom out.

Of course, if they DO try to stop a child that age from talking to mom, they are likely to find themselves in a court battle in which their actions in trying to cut contact wont be appreciated by a judge. And SD will be caught in the middle.

THe one plus I can see in that, is that mom would end up paying child support. I also think its reprehensible when a mom, or dad, doesnt pay support for their children.

Oh, and on a lighter note, I was born and raised in Canada. It was always amusing to us, to see the number of Americans who would visit Canada in August, with skiis strapped to the roof :)

Wow Kathline, aren't you just a bright ray of sunshine.

Granted, we aren't as saintly as you but at least we are somewhat capable of extending a bit of sensitivity and diplomacy at times.

if you think that it is a bad idea that is one thing... which btw I happen to agree with to the extent that it is not harming the child. Obviously, this child wants contact so, I would say that she should maintain contact and that the role of sm and dad should be to be the shoulder and support that she needs in order to handle the type of contact that this mom (and I use the term oh so lightly) delivers her daughter. However, you did not stop at saying that you think that would be a bad idea .. you attacked someone who is obviously in a very tough spot for trying to ask a simple question... I am sorry but you are delusional if you think that the thought wouldnt have crossed anyone else's or doesnt cross dad's mind when the little girl is up nights crying her eyes out because of what "mom" has done that it might not just be better if mom stayed away for good. Ofcourse, this can just be desperation talking but the fact is at some point... you start to think that there might be a better way to be doing this than letting an 11 year old handle the pains and burdens of someone far beyond her years.

And I will repeat this once more, I agree that contact should be maintained with mom... but I also think there are better ways to do it than to allow mom to what appears to be emotionally abusing her daughter.

And, on a side note I too am both a mom and a step mom.

OP wrote.... My dh has just always been accommodating and let his ex take their daughter when she wanted, which was not much!

So it boiled down to a couple phone calls a week.

Because I have had to console a child who just got off the phone with mom ... I have been there and when mom makes "promises" to her child and then breaks them I am the one who has had to pick up the pieces. Yes I only hear one side of the conversation. No clue what mom is asking but I know what my SC's responses are so I can guess the questions.

What kind of person asks a child "don't you love me anymore" someone more concerned with their own feelings not the child's.

Do you get on the phone with your kids and ask them how come they don't love you anymore? No you get on the phone how was your day? did you have fun? great I'll see you ______. have fun love ya.

I thought the child did a decent job of "handling" her mother the next phone call confronting her with the no you don'ts etc. a conversation that didn't need to occur.

Its frustrating when you want to keep them safe ... but you can't keep them safe from their parents inflicting pain... it may not be in the form of a bruise but it still hurts none the less.

I agree with Kathline in that a child needs to have both parent's in his/her life.

I didn't read the question as so cut/dry to say she wants to cut the mom out of the child's life. She wants to stop the badgering phone calls. I know what she means because my SD has gotten calls where BM tries to convince her things didn't happen the way SD remembers them. SD comes away confused that she forgot or it must have happened the other way that mom said. What do you think that does to a child? They love mom and don't want to think of mom as a liar or wrong. So they change their memory for mom. And mom is doing it to alleviate her guilt.

I would definitely limit the calls but not stop them. If mom continues to badger her daughter, it will most likely turn into a situation discussed not too long ago where the daughter didn't want to take mom's calls and mom had them court ordered. The court can't order a child to love their parent that continues to hurt them. The parents that do that are making a huge mistake and nobody should be making excuses for that.

and I am a bio mom and step mom (and step child)

My exH has hurt my kids' feelings on a number of occasions, but I would NEVER try to prevent him from talking to him or seeing them.

I would like to say that I'm proud of HelpWithThis' SD for even ~trying~ to talk to her mom about how she felt!
I get nervous trying to talk to my dad about any issue involving our parent/child relationship and I'm an adult. So I think it's great that an 11 year old tried to talk calmly to her parent about their relationship!

Kudos to her! That shows great maturity and I think it shows the knowledge that she deserves to be treated fairly and with respect. I'd like to look at this as a promising sign that she's not going to a constant worry to you when she's a few years older and dating some boy who might not be treating her as well as he should... And a good sign for when she's a few years older and feeling that she's being treated unfairly because she wants a later curfew (or whatever) that she'll try to talk about it rather than spew invectives at you!
Even though she 'caved' a little and said "maybe I remember it wrong", I think it says a lot about her self-respect and her communication skills!

I don't know what you should do to deal with this situation or if you or your DH can help BM be a more positive presence... But I think you and DH should tell her that you're proud of her for trying to talk to her mom about her feelings and that it was very grown-up of her to express herself calmly.

If a parent is harming their child when they have contact, is it truly in the child's best interest to suffer that harm because it is coming from a biological parent? Should that type of contact be at a maximum?

The alternative, of minimizing or eliminating contact with the biological parent, is almost always much worse.

Ok, so what you're telling us is that allowing BM to continue to rake SD over the coals and emotionally batter her is healthier than telling BM that if she can't refrain from speaking to SD like a dog she'd be back in court about it? I don't see where that's in the child's best interests.

"The mom called the next day and my sd answered the phone and within two minutes my sd was hysterically crying and saying "I just wanted to tell you how I feel.....I am sooo sorry...please stop!" Afterwards my sd told us that her mom was yelling at her and saying "it sounds like you do not love me" and other dumb comments."

Emotional blackmail and emotional battering. Yep, that's healthy.

I fully agree that it's in the child's best interest to have both parents involved, but I do not think that it's ok for one parent or both to emotionally abuse a child. It causes a lot of trauma and anger issues that you'll be dealing with later down the road.

If it were my ex doing that with my son, I'd tell him that if he couldn't refrain from yelling at our child I'd have his @$$ in court so fast it would make his head swim and they would stop it.

It's not easy to watch a kid be hurt. I had to watch my 4 kids be hurt over and over again by my abusive ex. Or else he would take me to court and have them all removed from my custody. Not a good thing because he was a worthless parent and human being. All I could do was pick up the pieces when they came home, and not say negative things about their dad even when he trashed me constantly. They are now in their 20's and 30's, 2 of them have children of their own. None have contact with their dad because of his behavior. My son (22) has not seen him for three years, although he tried calling him once. Why? Because they learned painfully that "dear old dad" is not so dear after all. All the trash he threw at me landed back on him. My grandkids do not like their grandfather. It's all his own fault.

If that were my ex I'd have wished him luck and beat him to the punch by taking him back to court. DH would and has done the same thing with his ex.

As a mother I think that it would be wrong to know that your child (biological or not) is being abused and to not do anything about it. A child is defenseless and relies on you for their care. Not doing anything about it could cause some serious emotional rifts between you.

I don't understand why the stepparents are listening in on phone calls to begin with.

If every time the child's other parent says something to the child that the other parent (or worse, the stepparent) doesn't like, the parent takes them to court, the only beneficiaries will be the lawyers.

The best thing a PARENT can do is to teach their child to stand up for himself, and that includes standing up for him or herself when talking to the other parent. Going back and forth to court or jumping in all the time and putting in your two cents does nothing for the child.

Well, I agree that going back to court should be a last resort. It's expensive and it takes control away from the parents and gives it to a judge. However, sometimes it's impossible to not overhear some of the conversations. My SD takes the phone into her room but is always coming out and asking questions while BM is on the phone. She will also come into the living room sometimes and she obviously isn't worried about privacy.

I don't think that anyone is spying on their children's or step children's phone calls. I, for one, almost always hear my sd's entire conversation with her mom when she calls her because for some unknown reason she feels the need to sit on top of me every time she talks to her. I personally, try to get her to take it to her room which is a useless fight because by the time she listens to me the phone call is usually over.

I completely agree that one of the best things you can do is allow your child to think and act for themselves and to be able to stand up for themselves and what they feel is right. However, it is important not to just throw you child out there to wolves before they are ready. If I were the child's father I would have already had a "conversation" with the mother letting her know that what she is doing is unacceptable and it will not proceed any further.

The email was a good idea to allow her to get what she wanted out... Maybe a journal would help her as well. I know that for me one of the most theraputic things is to just get what I am thinking out of my head and for some reason seeing it on paper makes it easier to deal with. Have her write in her journal whenever something is bothering her and also after any phone calls with mom that are upsetting. Let her know that it is her private space so she can say or write anything she wants and doesnt have to worry about others reading it. This will also give her another tool for the whole brainwashing thing ... if she writes in the book while her memory is fresh when she does argue with her mom and convinces herself that "maybe she was remembering it wrong" she can look at her journal and say No, I am right this is what happened.

My SD 9 keeps/kepts having emotional breakdowns because of "secrets" ... I gave her a journal with a printout of different faces on it... happy sad crying worried laughing... she comes home after school and writes her secrets down in her journal to get it out and no one gets hurt ... because her friends at school told her if you tell secrets something bad happens to your mom... so by putting them in her journal she gets to "tell someone" (herself) the secrets and they no longer haunt her... no on reads the book she keeps it in her room ... but it has been a big help for her..

My 12 SS would want to call mom all times of the day and night to ask her this or that ... he was given a notebook so he could write his questions down so he could ask mom next time he saw/talked to her.

You must have a huge house not to hear your kids on the phone... unless mine(is that being possesive?) are hiding in their rooms I can hear every word.

even when they are in their rooms... sounds carries oddly in my house and they are so loud anyways that I usually can hear them even then... That is when I am not being blown away by their tv or radio being WAY to loud.

I did the journal thing for my son when his elborate "stories" got us a trip to the school because he told his teacher some story about his grandma (or was it his mom) dieing in war and burying her in the backyard... or something like that... I can't really remember. After a long talk about lieing and making up stories he got a journal that we told him... if you want to make up stories that is great but write them down and make a real story out that... The journal was also used because he was getting out of control with his NEED to tell you or ask you whatever was on his mind at that exact moment without regards to what you were doing... So he was told to write it down and then at the end of the day he can ask all of his questions or tell us his tales.

When SD starts screaming at the top of her lungs and slinging profanities at her mother it's impossible to NOT hear her in our house. The neighbors also hear her.

Do you leave the room every time your child enters it or walks through on the telephone? No, didn't think so.

TOS, if your ex was treating your kids in the way hecallsmemoms SD is being treated, how would you react? This is hypothetical - I'm not asking to hear "he would not treat them that way" or anything else. Just imagine the situation, put yourself as the one listening to a child hear that from a parent, imagine how your child would be feeling, and tell me what you would do.

First of all, this is NOT HER CHILD.

Secondly, I would encourage my kids to stand up for themselves. For awhile, some of them were scared to yell back at their father because they were afraid he would refuse to see them at all if they got mad at him. Then, one of them just completely lost it on the phone with him, telling him everything he had done wrong in the last decade and using quite a few choice words. As a result, he seems to have gained more respect for her, and has not berated her since.

I call bullsh!t. When you are woke up in the middle of the night by a child screaming and fighting off something that happened years ago that her mother let happen, then you can tell me whose child this is. When you have to fight the school system to keep her in school, fight her, and your MIL to keep some peace in your home, and fight for your marriage and sanity at the same time, then you can tell me whose child this is. As far as I am concerned when I married her father she became my family and my child. No I didn't birth her, but it takes a hellova lot more than that to be a mother.

As far as SD getting up in someone's face, but she's said herself that she has more respect for her father and I than she does her own mother and would not do that. She calls her mother stupid and various other names and knows that her mom isn't a good parent.

Children should not be taught that getting in someone's face is an appropriate way to express their anger. It simply promotes violence and will eventually lead to your child getting their @$$ kicked or jailed.

TOS, you did not answer the question. How would you react? How would you feel?

I am not discussing WHOSE CHILD THIS IS. Intentionally hurting a child (emotionally or otherwise) is wrong, and I don't care if you gave birth or not. I am asking a hypothetical question. If this was your child, how would you feel? What would you think of that other parent?

As a side note, it's great that your child was able to stand up to her father, and better that your ex saw the error in his ways and stopped the bevavior. Consider yourself and your daughter very lucky, as I can tell you from experience (SD has stood up to mom before when she reached ropes end) that not all parents stop. Some parents just keep right on guilting and belittleing, or find even *better* manipulative ways to make their child feel anything they do that makes mom/dad feel badly is wrong.

I would recommed that you tell the sd that she doesn't have to talk to her mom if she does not want to and then when the bm calls, I would talk to her. Tell her about how you were awakened in the middle of the night by her child's sorrow. Tell her that she needs to be more gentle in talking with her daughter and that she needs to explain her decision to her. The child is obviously not understanding why this happened. Why the mom chose the baby and not her. If you feel out of place talking to her, have your husband do it. The mom needs to be told what is going with her daughter. I would also tell the daughter how none of this is her fault and that she does not need to feel bad for how her mom decided to handle things. Let her know that she is loved and accepted at your house no matter what. I commend you for being there for her and for waking up with her and even giving her the advice you gave. I don't think that you were wrong in your advice either. You did the right thing, and should not blame yourself for how the bm decided to handle things. Good luck.

I think marmie's advice was excellent! I know how it is to deal with a BM like that. My skids live with us full time and their mom is also less than a part time mom.....moved clear across the country to be with her bf. My sd's (I have 2 of them) have had a hard time dealing with their mom and her lack of involvement in their lives. They did visit her for a while this summer though, which proved to be a bad experience overall though. Now they both write in journals to get their feelings out and it has seemed to help. I commend your advice about telling BM her feelings, but I have a feeling the BM in our situation would act as immaturely as the one in your situation did. Just know that your doing the right thing by your sd and some day she will thank you for it!