We've kind of gotten off track here --

I don't think there's really any point debating how 'wrong' keepit was or wasn't in dating a 'married' man, how honest the man was in describing the status of his marital relationship, or even how much 'right' the now-ex has to feel betrayed --

The real point is how BioMom *does* feel about the end of her marriage and Keepit's role in that end, and whether Keepit wants to go forward with a relationship that is complicated by that kind of beginning.

Just remember, that in no way shape or form can you change how other people see things. To this day, my DH's ex trys to blame me for the end of her marriage. Simply, because I worked at the same place that DH did before they were divorced. Never mind the fact that I never even spoke to him before they were seperated and we most definately were not involved until after the divorce. Their marriage ending had to do with their own issues and the fact that they cant get along for longer than 2 minutes (which is still a problem today) But, as I have experianced no matter what, she will always blame me... I guess it makes her feel better to have someone other than herself to blame. People see and think what they want ... and they act how they want. You cant change it. You can only control your actions and how you feel. So, you have to decide whether or not that is something you really want to deal with on a regular basis. By far, it is not easy. But, for me , it is enough to know that I know what really happened and my conscience is clear.

Keepit,I hope you werent scared off by some of the responses here.

I did have to take a break and kind of have my own time to think about it without getting sidetracked by judgment, etc. For a moment I lost sight in what I already know and got caught up in some of the opinions. However, I remembered where I am and who I am.

My concern was if I could ever have a healthy enough relationship with this woman so that our common connection (the child) could be happy in every possible environment.

My soon to be DH and I had that conversation a while back. He asked if I thought it was possible that given time things might change. Perhaps and perhaps not. I'm not going to get too bent out of shape about it.

As for what happened between them, I trust him and he has told me what happened. I understand that she may or may not have had a different perspective on that... at this point it doesn't change. I know what happened on my end and I DO have a clear conscience, and I can't get caught up in her feelings.

Like I said, the most important part in all of this is SS. Thank you for the support and advice and the different perspectives ... I believe it is healthy to be able to discuss these things amongst each other in the cleanest way possible.

Thanks again.

Keepitmovin,you certainly have a mature attitude about the whole thing.I admire your sincerity to do what is best for the child.
It is possible things could change in the future...people do change.For all of your sake I hope that happens.Just stay strong.
And keep posting :)

DH asked what I thought about the 3 of us having dinner (BM, him, me) b/c he feels its important the child sees us all together....

considering BMs attitude with me, (I know she would fake it), is this a totally bad idea? He's totally oblivious to how standoffish and cold she can be to me. mainly b/c she's busy trying to laugh it up with him.

What do I do/say

No. Here's why:

"She even made "propositions" to DH saying she needed someone to sleep with and he was the safest person she knew. All the while he's in a relationship with me; a complete disrespect to me. Now she wants the three of them (BM,DH, and son) to spend quality time together."

I'm going to agree with June...

However,if you end up doing it anyways,be sure to tell DH he must:
A)NOT leave you alone with her.

B) He must be ready to defend you if she says anything rude or out of line.(If my husband sat there and let his ex put me down,I would not be too happy with him.Even if you think this wont happen,it's just good to cover all the bases before going in)

It may be too soon to try though...I mean,how long ago did she proposition him? I'd be VERY uncomfortable if it was me in this situation.

From what has been written, I don't think the ex will let DH see how she really feels about Keepit.

The more likely scenario is that she will be "fine" at dinner and the door will then be open for other dinners and get-togethers and boundary issues (lack of) may result.

By boundary issues, consider what your married life will be like if ex feels welcome to stop by when she wants, to call frequently, to ask DH to come over to her house to fix something.

And what can you say? That you don't like it? DH will remind you that you are all friends and that you are the only one with a problem.

She will never like you. And she will always let you know that but she will never let DH see that. I'd suggest limiting contact and keeping a low profile with her.

I think it is possible to be a good SM to his son by showing his son that you care for him and that you are a kind person.

It sounds as if the son is quite young, so this is on your side. He will grow up with you in his life and while his mother can influence him, I think it is also likely that he will come to his own conclusions about you based on how you treat him.

Best wishes!
June

Keepit - I hope you did not interpret my post as one of the 'judgemental' ones. I don't mean to pass any judgement on you, and believe you have been acting honorably throughout. But your situation is still a minefield, and it sounds like Ex likes it that way and is into playing games. Many men can't even see women's games when they are explained with a play-by-play and back-story, much less perceive them as they unfold, and if your guy falls into this category, then you could be in trouble. I agree with June's reading that she would likely be 'outwardly nice' but manipulating behind the scenes. The possibilities are limitless:

- reliving old memories with former DH that cast you clearly as the 'third wheel',

- setting herself up for the lack of boundaries that June mentions,

- gathering evidence to use against you on another day,

- demonstrating to the world how 'gracious' she is by 'trying so hard' to befriend you despite how 'impossible' you make it.

I'm curious why DH tinks it would be good for his son to "see the three of you together" --- That's surely a fantasy that has little basis in fact. It'll will be good if you can all become a united front down the road, but odds are, that scenario is far, far down the road...

Sweeby,

I agree 100%. It is a minefield and many men do not understand female games. This is especially true when the man has a child with his ex and from what he can perceive or see, the ex is friendly with the new wife and really "likes" her.

Keepit may have a hard time articulating to her future DH why she doesn't want to have dinner with the ex, though, since he seems to think this is a good idea. But it is easier to stop this before it starts.

My own DH was full of these "good" ideas when we first married. He was naive and I went along with him, thinking he knew what he was doing. He told me the ex really liked me, yada, yada and that she was my "friend".

What it resulted in was the ex coming over all the time, to the point where I was about to ask her if she wanted to move in, and calling just to chat with him, expecting us to watch her dog when she went out of town, and then trying to get him to come to her house to fix things.

I was not enjoying this, but I drew the line when she was over one night and when DH went to another room, she proceeded to tell me how hard they had to work to get prego - it took many, many times. I didn't ask - why was she telling me this?
There were other things that happened and if I had to do it over again, I would have said no before it started.

this sounds very strange. i always had a very good relationship with my ex-husband. We however never had any interest to have dinners all 4 of us or hanging out at each other houses. there must be some boundaries!

If you agree to this no boundaries arrangement then one of you, either you or his ex, is going to feel like a third wheel. And I suspect it is going to be you because they have more memories together plus they share a child.

This kind of arrangement sets you up for trouble and embarassement. This is not important for a child and in fact it is probably damaging to see his mommy and daddy and the other woman, who daddy lives with now, hanging out all together. It will make a child more confused and lost. Most children would like to see their parents getting back together and this arrangement would make a kid resentful of you. All three of them used to be a family (good or bad). This arrangement will create illusion of a family in a child's mind. So how do you fit in there? They are (or were) a family so why are you there?

And then i think his ex will use this situation to try to either get her ex back or hurt you some way. I am surprised your fiancee or boyfriend considers this kind of arrangement. This is a big big "No No"

I have to agree it is probably not a good idea to have dinner or socialize. There may be situations where an ex wife and new wife/GF can be "friends" but I think it is rare. If they can get along, be cordial, and not have power struggles, it would be great. But, there is such thing as being "too friendly".

I agree with finedreams wholeheartedly. It gives the child false hope that the parents still love each other or will get back together. This is true, even if the parent's are not with anyone else. My husband's ex had a (long distance) boyfriend shortly after they split up. She would invite my husband to go trick or treating or watch fireworks, etc. with her (and her boyfriend when he was around) and to the daughter (who was between 2-5 at the time), she perhaps saw it as them being a family. I think the ex also had that thought and hoped he would come back to her (because as soon as he married me, she dumped the long distance guy) If the child knows one parent would like the other parent back and the other parent get involved with someone else, it sets it up automatically for the child to dislike or hate the new person.

If this woman has already shown that she may have feelings for him, she isn't going to want to be your "friend". She may try to sabotage your relationship so she can get him back or so he won't be with anyone. If she is being cordial with you (even for the sake of the child), I would remain as friendly as I can when you HAVE to see her but not to the point where you are socializing with her.

Ex-wives and ex-husbands and children ARE a family.

Mothers and children are, and always will be, family to each other.
Fathers and children are, and always will be, family to each other.
Ex-wives & ex-husbands were, and no longer are, family to one another.

"Ex-wives & ex-husbands were, and no longer are, family to one another."

Agreed. That is the purpose of divorce.

"Ex-wives & ex-husbands were, and no longer are, family to one another."

Agreed

As long as there are childen, X spouses will have a relationship (OK, decent ones).

That is perhaps the cruelest thing I have read on this forum. If your child asked, "Are we still a family," you would actually say "No?"

So the child doesn't actually HAVE a family anymore????? Just two partial ones??

And when he draws a picture of his family at school, he has to ask for two pieces of paper, because god forbid he put his father and his mother on the same sheet.

Your logic escapes me TOS. You and your ex are no longer family to each other, but you are both family to your children. I guess you could choose to present the information in a negative light that way to a child but I can't see how that would be of any help.

I believe it is this misinterpretation of the reality of divorce that causes most of the grief in blended families. Primarily when an exwife does not understand that she is no longer family to her exhusband.

Doesn't mean you can't have a relationship. I have a relationship with my coworkers, but they are not members of my family.

TOS, do you want your child's picture of you, ex husband and child to include his/her new step parent?

So if your ex called you up and said ... hey the 3 of should do dinner.... you would be running to the mall buying a new dress for the big event?

one big happy family????

There's a differnce between being cordial and friendly.

I will say Hi to the ex but I will not break bread with her.

And I suppose you wrote to the producer of the movie - I think it might have been The Santa Clause - when the child asks his parent if they are still a family and the parent answers "yes."

I have relatives whom I don't particularly like, and relatives whom I have never met - but they are still my family.

And I suppose all those obituaries that say "Fred leaves his former wife Joan" would violate your tender sensibilities.

There are some circumstances where it might not be strange for the child to include a stepparent in a picture of the parent - but not when they are only a stepparent in name only, when they wouldn't recognize each other walking down the street, not when they assaulted the child with a deadly weapon, etc.

"Primarily when an exwife does not understand that she is no longer family to her exhusband."

I disagree. I think problems arise when the husband (of wife's) new spouse is so jealous and possessive that she or he does not understand that the father, mother, and children WILL always be a family.

typo - (of wife's) is supposed to be (or wife's).

Let me try again....the mother and father of the child (children) will always be family to the child (children).

The ex-wife and ex-husband are no longer family to each other.

I am (and was) very specific in my language. I carefully represented the adult-child relationship as Parent-Child.

I represented the adult-adult relationship as spousal, using the terms "Wife-Husband."

I actually think it would be ideal to hand any child one sheet of paper and have that child draw EVERYONE in his or her life to whom that child feels a kinship --- mom, dad, SM and SF, siblings (whether full or half or step) grandparents, aunts, uncles (whether by biology or marriage), family pets, etc. Again, ANYONE to whom that child feels kinship.

I continue to pray for the healing of your heart, TOS.

I wouldn't in any way be bothered if Jane wanted to refer to herself as a former wife. But I am pretty sure my husband would cringe.

I have been married to my husband for fifteen years and am in no way jealous or possessive of either him, his ex or his relationship with the children. In fact I have tried on many occasions to encourage husband to have some kind of relationship with his ex for the sake of the children. He flat out refuses. She really gave him the shaft, and he isn't in a forgiving mood even still.

Wow,

This got tangential.

So we actually got into an argument. I am pretty tired of the petty stuff and would like to stay as positive as possible. My home is my place of peace and I until I can collect myself I don't want her in it. At first he said he would accommodate me, but then started asking my why and if I thought that was "reasonable". He started saying how she hadn't even seen the child's room. I'm sorry, but is that really necessary? He totally DOES NOT see that "secret language", as someone put it, of women. He blames me for "wanting to see the negative instead of the positive". That I'm standing in my own way of progress. I'm in shock. I've been trying extremely hard, and he wants me to 'try in a different way".
I think he's so set on trying to have this cumbaya way of life, when considering the circumstances and as long as she tries blaming me for all her problems, its not going to happen. He won't hear me, funny thing is he thinks he's taking the higher road. Said I should just really go talk to her. I've never talked bad about her to him or anything, clearly she has. Yet, I'm the one holding up progress? She'll totally fake it and he's content with that. I'm pretty pissed .

Has your SO's son asked if his mom can see his room? Is he wanting her to see his place at his dad's house? Or is it coming from SO's XW? I think if my DH's son wanted his mom to see his room, I would probably acquiesce to his request. If it was coming from the adult, I would probably politely & civilly stand my ground to maintain boundaries.

To be truthful, I think if I were in your position, I would be feeling really uncomfortable....not so much about your fiance's XW, but about your fiance. I would be really troubled by his not so subtle pressuring of me to relate with someone in ways I would not be comfortable interacting. That's him, not her. That's about his respect for, empathy for my experience.

I would be concerned that perhaps even with all the factors you mentioned in your original post (he was just a fill-in; her family is well off financially; his isn't; they were only pretending to still care about each other, etc, etc, etc) suggesting your fiance and his XW had been done with one another for a long time prior to you entering the picture --- clearly at one point, he cared enough about her, was sufficiently attracted to her to have sex with her, got along with her "well enough" to marry her --- even if only to honorably make an honest woman of her. Not every man would have...and it may be that your fellow is truly a prince....or he cared for her more than he is letting on to you.....

Bless his heart, he may find himself in a position where he genuinely cares for two people simultaneously and now, he doesn't quite know what to do....he loves you; he doesn't want to lose you....but she is, after all, the mother of his son. "C'mon, Keep It....can't we all just get along?"

If I were you, I would be tempted to put my enagagement on hold. I would be tempted to say something like, "You know what? I love you dear fiance. With all my heart, I do. There is nothing I want more in this world than to share my life with you and be the best wife I can be & be the best SM to your son that I can be. That said, it is also true that it seems to me that you are no where near finished emotionally with your XW. It seems as if you still have some things you need to complete with her before you will truly be free to fully commit emotionally to anyone else. So, I am going to back off here for a while, because it seems you need to figure out if you can and/or want to reconcile with her and provide a nuclear family with her for your son....or if you are indeed finished with her on a romantic, emotional level and want to be with me and fully commit to one another and provide a stable family for your son and any children you and I may have together."

I think if I were in your shoes, as heart-wrenchingly difficult as it would be for me to do, I would back way off and give him plently of room to figure out what he wants....and give myself time to figure out if I want to be part of an emotionally polygamous marriage.

I think what you are facing is profoundly difficult. Good luck with this and keep us posted with how you are doing.

The first time my husband (BF at the time) said his daughter's mom wanted to "inspect" my house because I was babysitting her there (infrequently, when she had a day off from school when her dad was working), I thought it was absurd. But, I said ok because parent's do check out childcare centers so it wasn't a big deal. I have nothing to hide. Once he told her ok, she never came to do it. All the time we were dating, she would tell him that the three of us should get together and have dinner because we all need to work as a team in raising their daughter. I was fine with it. (I didn't particularly like her but we were cordial to each other. She's a "party girl" type and I'm a little more reserved, so I didn't feel comfortable chatting up a storm with her.) She never set up a date or time to get together but kept suggesting it. I gave a few dates and she was alway busy. So, it never happened. [keep in mind that during this time, she was calling him up to three or four times a day while he was at work to discuss their daughter, and occasionally dropping by just to talk or hang out, which he said he couldn't really do anything about and didn't want to get her angry, which would have happened if he told her to stop] It was a little annoying to me that she was spending so much time contacting him and in my opinion, she might still have feelings for him. He didn't think so, they had been broken up for five years and she had a long distance relationship that she had been in for almost five years. He thought she was just being friends and even told me that she thinks of him as her best friend. He was clueless that she might still like him. I figured that her motivation for wanting to get together or "inspect" his daughter's room was that she expected me to say no. Then she could accuse me of not liking her and being the one that was causing problems with her.

As soon as he proposed to me and moved in, she insisted on seeing their daughter's room. We agreed but again, she never came. The exchanges took place at the school so she would have had to make a special trip over to see it, which she didn't. She finally came to see it the first time she had to pick her daughter up during the summer (about six months later) and it wasn't that big of a deal. [I did think it was strange to have her in my house. When my son went back and forth to my house and his dad's house, we never went into each other's homes, let alone expect to see our son's rooms in each other's homes, but I guess it's not too unreasonable.] She finally decided I was an evil witch when I didn't invite her to our wedding. She made it clear that she should be there because her daughter was the flower girl. (and her daughter went from loving me very much, to resenting me a lot just before the wedding and a few months after) Over time, I have just focused on spending time with her and showing her I care for her and she is once again, a warm loving child to me. She still has occasional bouts of being distant to me, but it's usually when she comes back from her mom or if I enforce a rule she doesn't like.

My point here is, that you have to consider the ex's motives. Is she a concerned parent? Is she looking for reasons to complain about things? Is she trying to stay close to her ex in hopes of him coming back?

I realized early on that my husbands ex(GF) probably had not disengaged her feelings toward him after they broke up. She still invited him to do "family" things with their daughter, which I think is nice that they can get along, but it can lead the child(ren) to believe their parent's may still love each other or may get back together, which most children fantasize about anyways) It exacerbates it if one of the parent's still wants the other parent back and the children know this. She still called him about a month ago to tell him she's getting married in December (which isn't true because she hasn't fully divorced her first husband. I can only assume she hopes he will feel jealous because there is no other explanation. It is going to confuse her daughter when she realizes her mom says she is getting married and then it doesn't happen).

I agree with what Wrychoice1 says. I would not want to marry a man that "might" have unresolved feelings for his ex and he knows his ex still has unresolved feelings for him if she's propositioned him like that. If he has resolved his feelings, he needs to tell his ex: "I love and care about you because you are the mother of my child. I will always feel that way because you gave me our child. But, our relationship is over and I have moved on emotionally. I love keepitmovin now. It's important that we both (him and his ex) get along for our child's sake, but we need to have boundaries."

The hardest thing to do is step back and take the risk that he will go back to her and you might end up losing him, but if he goes back, you didn't really have him. They were a family first and if there's a chance of them staying that way, you shouldn't want to stand in the way of that. If it's truly over, he needs to set the boundaries to protect your new relationship.

I understand how it feels when you are so frustrated that you might say, you don't want have anything to do with the ex, but she is always going to have a great amount of influence with her child and if she decides she hates you, eventually the child that loves and adores you may see you as the person that upsets mommy the most and they can turn on you to protect their parent's feelings.

It sounds to me from the things he's saying to you, that he is seeing you as being unreasonable. I don't think the way you feel is unreasonable and that leads me to believe he isn't sure which team he is on. I'm sure he would like it to be peaceful and that is why my husband put up with all the phone calls and dropping by from his ex, but they don't see that as encouraging problems with the new relationship. It would probably be a good idea for him to take a cooperative parenting class, which will discuss disengaging, and creating boundaries.

My kids wanted their dad to see their bedroom, and I didn't think it was any big deal. What did bother me was the time he stood on the front step talking to me while waiting for the kids to get ready, in the middle of a snowstorm, letting out all the heat.

My fiance's response to me not wanting her to come into our home (which she only has to use the restroom), was that "she hasn't even seen his room"... this is not a child's request, otherwise I wouldn't be frowning on it.

As for his feelings. Even if he's completely resolved w/no problems... who knows where she is and he thinks he's doing everything right. I still feel he enables her, she feels entitled.

that's something the two of you should discuss. It helps to start the sentence off with "I feel...." and not using a "you" statement. If you demonstrate how it makes you feel and then suggest acceptable solutions or boundaries, rather than saying it in a way that attacks her or blames him, then he'd probably be more receptive.

You can't stop her from having feelings for him or trying to get him back. My mom would take my dad back in a heartbeat and they've been divorced 25 years. She even inappropriately hugged and kissed him at a family party when he first married my step mom 20 years ago. You have to hold your head high and know that he loves you and ignore her behavior. If he responds, then that's a problem. My mom was told by my dad (and her children) that if she can't behave herself at family gatherings, she won't be included. She's had to be reminded a few times over the years but she's gotten better.

I agree that a child's request to show the room to the ex is acceptable and an ex's request is probably inappropriate on the ex's part but I wouldn't make a big deal. Pick your battles and that's not one worth fighting over. Now, if she came in there on a regular basis, then that's a problem. But one time, just to see, isn't that big a deal. I think it's silly because if they don't like something, they don't really have the control to change it so it could upset them for nothing. If they are competitive, they may feel jealous if it's better than the room they are providing or feel they are a better parent because the room they provide is better. Either way, it doesn't help the child any.

BTW, my husband's ex got rather upset when she came into our house and saw we had taken a family portrait with us and all the kids. We don't rub anything in her face but she wants to come into our home, we can't control how it makes her feel.

I can understand the child, I can even understand the ex. But My thing is, why is he pushing for it? Why now, he's trying to act like he's the high road individual, when its definitely not a clear road.

I haven't said unkind things about her, and yet, I'm persecuted? It doesn't make sense. He says he'll do what he thinks is right... thing is, his way is not always right, and I dont think he sees that.

then it sounds like he's conflicted about how he feels. If he's the one pushing it, then maybe he still feels he needs her approval. If that's the case, IMO, he's not ready to be in a relationship with someone else. Or he could be trying to make it as amicable as possible. but if he is blaming you or finding fault with your feelings, then he's just not ready to move on. You certainly don't want to waste years of your life as his "rebound". I did that with my ex, I spent 7 years with him, raising his kids and in reality, I was his rebound. That can happen when you get together with someone too soon after they end a long or serious relationship. (that's not to say it's ALWAYS a rebound) but it can happen

I would go to the dinner. But here is the thing so what if she wants to act fake. At least she isnt causing a scene and she isnt putting the kid in the middle. Of all of the pains dealing with the ex I have learned (very painfully) to actually like when the ex is being fake. At least then I know she will be on her best behavior and we wont have any drama. I would have a VERY serious talk with DH. The fact that she propositioned him means at no time should he be going off with her alone, she should not be calling him unless it relates to the child and is something that cant be discussed at drop off and pick up and he needs to realize that for your relationship to work .... he needs to put it first above and beyond any sort of relationship with the ex. You are his wife (or soon to be) She should not be putting her hands on him for anything other than a polite handshake... discussions about their past should not take place at the dinner or any other time that doesnt relate directly to the kids.

It would be fantastic to all get along and be friends... but, she is obviously not ready to respect your relationship with him and until that happens there can be no friendship. I would make it clear to DH that these things are no longer acceptable and if he cant handle that then this is not the right situation for you. If this were any other woman other than the mother of his child... no woman on this forum or any other would want her around her DH. Unfortunately, she is and that means lines need to be drawn. And since I have never been one to not say what I think is right.. I would use the dinner as an opportunity to discuss plainly everyone role in each others lives. IE: if you really want to maintain a friendship it is not okay for you to ever mention sex past present or future to my husband or myself for that matter. Be blunt but be polite and always throw out there I just want us all to have the best relationship possible. Be ridiculously sweet so that you cant be turned into the bad guy.. but make sure that you are heard.

I think a lot of it has to do with the fact he wants to have control of the situation, like not feeling he's caught in some sort of manipulation scheme or something.

I don't think I am ready for a dinner. I would be open to she and I sitting down for coffee or something brief. Would that be a good idea?

Hmm, I don't know about coffee being a good.
My BF's ex is nowhere near the level of pesky that yours is (mine is mostly just dismissive, with a dash of rude) but I still wouldn't want to spend time one-on-one with her.
It's important to me that BM and I get along and that we respect each other's roles, but I wouldn't want to go for coffee with her without J__ there!

I'd also be concerned that going for coffee without your fiance would exacerbate that he feels like he's caught in a scheme. I might have missed something in a previous post, but if I were him, I'd be worried that the two "sides" I had been worried about were allied against ME!

The saying is that you keep your friends close and your enemies closer, but I think the better choice in this case would be to keep your friends close and your "enemy" safely behind firmly established boundaries.
I wouldn't worry too much about letting her see the child's room if she wants to (although I think it's a little odd), but I think your guy is off-base by saying you're holding up progress by not wanting to be her buddy. I wouldn't want to go for dinner with someone who had asked my BF for sex either!

I think your best bet is to be nice when you see her, accommodate some of the weird requests that don't really take any skin off your nose so that you're not always saying no, but ask your fiance to limit their interactions to things directly involving their child. I would also suggest a deal that you'll be relaxed and nice, but he should always be 'in your corner' and put your marriage before his relationship with his ex.
I understand why he wants everyone to get along - it makes things easier for him!!! If you and his ex were the best of chums, he'd never have to deal with a disagreement or make a choice or stand his ground. It sounds to me like he's blaming you for that you're not all singing Kumbaya around the campfire, because it's easier than making a choice and taking a stand to defend his boundaries with hi ex.

I had a sit down with the ex early in Dh and mine's relationship. I did it with just the two of us because I didnt want her to feel like she was being ganged up on. We went to some restuarant and only ordered drinks. Not that any of this did any good because she actually acts worse these days than she ever did. But, I can honestly say that I did everything I could to make our relationship better in the best interests of the kids. In the mean time, she has made her own decisions on acting the way she does and now even her kids are seeing it.
My point is that coffee dinner whatever, is not going to be the solution. There is an off chance but I wouldnt hold my breath. But, if you are a team player and show that you are willing to do what needs to be done to make things better than you can move on. If you feel more comfortable with more of a coffee drinks or something like that than suggest it. It is a good compromise... and offers an easy out. However, I will say that food is generally a good distraction for uncomfortable situations... just dont pick an overly busy restuarant that you end up waiting forever for the food. It sounds like he wants to be involved in the dinner or coffee... So I would not push it to be just the two of you. But, before any sort of meeting happens you need to have that conversation with soon to be hubby. You need to know that he is your corner... and actually this may be a good thing for you. You can see how he acts with you when she is around for an extended period of time. He should not be afraid to act the exact way he does normally...if you hold hands he should still be doing that... and so on. And, above and beyond anything else do not let yourself be disrespected by her or him. If she says something inappropriate or acts in some such way politly change the subject and/or say I am sorry but I am uncomfortable with this conversation lets move on to a different topic. which ofcourse is a perfect opener for the I want all of us to be able to get along and have a positive relationship for the sake of kid. But in order to do this this kind of behavior would have to stop. I do not feel those actions or comments are necessary and infact are unacceptable. As were the comments made in the past pertaining to sex. It makes me feel uncomfortable and makes having any sort positive relationship impossible. I think we all want to do what is in the best interests of kid... however, I will not be made to feel this way in order to accomplish it. I only ask for you to show respect to me as a person and to my relationship with soon to be hubby. It's intimidating, but only if you let yourself be intimidated.

The proposition thing happened about 1.5 years ago. He said she was drunk when she called him and apologized later, I dont know if thats his damage control.

She's weird. One day she'll smile and say hi and the next time she'll act like i'm not there. Compared to most of the stories I know I have it pretty tame and I'm grateful, its still irksome though. Especially his responses as of late.

I guess I was hoping that my willingness to have coffee would be like the make it or break it thing. Like, here's your chance to say what you want and you can finally hear the words from my mouth. I think she assumes i talk bad about her, or that I dislike/hate her. I dont know, perhaps I'm being naive about it all.

interesting thoughts about who children consider to be a family. Ask them to draw a family picture....

My daughter always drew pictures of a family up until she was really grown.

Herself in the middle, mommy, daddy (not next to each other but on the both sides of her), both sets of grandparents, uncle (my brother, my ex has no siblings), aunt, cousin (had only one when she was younger), greatgrandma. Then when her dad had another son from the second marriage she drew her brother next to herself.

It never occured to her that we are not a family since we have been divorced for 16 years and she was very young at the time of divorce.

Oh last year in her Sunday school (senior year-so she was not a baby anymore) she had to make a poster about roots and family and she didn't draw this time but once again posted photos of all the same people. To be clear she never had any silly illusions of mommy and daddy getting back together. But I guess in her mind everyone is a family.

And to add to this she never drew her stepmom on a family picture. And her dad was remarried since she was young and our daughter always got along with SM. But she never thought of her as a family I guess.

So we adults might have our thoughts about family but children have their own understanding.

I think that is pretty well what was said. I also believe that family is blood lines. Mother and father are always family to the child, but Mother is no longer family to father. They WERE joined by a marriage which has been dissolved with a divorce.

But you will find instances where an ex wife still thinks she is part of her husbands family, his mother, father, brothers, sisters, aunts, uncles etc. She is not part of that family anymore. There are no blood lines to an ex in that part of the family.

My former MIL has said repeatedly I will also be family to her. Frankly, I am not fighting for this honor, but this is what she says.

Why doesn't that surprise me KKNY, but your husband isn't remarried yet.

My SD always draws both her mom and dad in her family drawings. They are her family. But they are not family to each other. As far as in laws go, my sister's ex husband is still considered family. He's the father of my nephew. But when you divorce, those extended relationships will depend on the relationship enjoyed during the marriage. But when there is a new marriage, the family should consider the feelings of the new/current spouse as primary. I know that isn't always the case, especially if they don't like her or support the marriage.

As far as giving some children false hope that parents will reunite, I think that if parents (especially if they have not remarried and the kids are younger) continue to get together for example, Christmas morning, or Thanksgiving, etc. then the child might believe that the parents are still functioning as a family and they may hope the parents will get back together. The older the child, the more they understand that the parents are not going to reunite. Both of my parents get together now for some holidays and my sister, who is 37, still has commented that "wouldn't it be great if mom and dad got back together" Of course, my mom also would too. But everyone else knows that will never happen. When my step mother was in good health, my mom did not attend gatherings. Understandably, she wasn't very nice to my step mom and my dad had to keep boundaries for his marriage.

Blood ties have nothing to do with it. I was never related by blood to my exH's uncle's wife. My exH is not related by blood to her, either. Yet we both called her aunt.

You don't get to divorce your spouse and then claim that all those people who were her (or his) family for many years are no longer family. If any two people still consider themselves family, they are - and sometimes people are still family even if they don't want to be.

Colleen, I dont know what you meant by this doesnt suprise you, but MIL has said I will always be DIl, no matter what. In long term relationships, these things happen

I mean that you are perfect and everyone loves you.

Truth is you are no longer her daughter in law. I am sure she wants to maintain a positive relationship with you because of her grandchildren, and unfortunately some exes will alienate grandchildren from their grandparents.

I am well aware of what happens in long term relationships.

I dont claim to be perfect, and obviously not everyone loves me. X left me.

Interesting you are so sure of yourself.

My former mother in law still considered me her family until she passed away. She left me a share of her estate, which really annoyed my ex husband terribly. My ex husbands brother and his wife are still close to me , and that has put distance between the two brothers. They still consider me family, particularly since I am raising/have raised their nephews. I was married to my ex for a very long time, and its not sensible to expect people who have been family for years, to suddenly deny that bond merely because a marriage ends.

"Blood ties have nothing to do with it."

My point exactly (see my previous post "Attachments").

I have two male cousins who divorced their first wives. I love my cousins but also cared deeply for the women to whom they were married. I still consider them family. They are welcome in my home. I visit them when I am back there. My relationship to them, my consideration of them as "family" does not alter the fact that they are no longer "family" to their ex-spouses. My one cousin refused to speak to his mother (my aunt) for an extended period of time because, like Kathline's X-MIL, she refused to renounce his XW. Her attitude was "You divorced her. I didn't." Eventually, my cousin got over himself and reconciled with his mom.

In my post on another thread, I wrote that mothers and their children are and always will be family to one another; that fathers and their children will always be family to one another. In writing this, I was simply acknowledging a biological bond; in writing that XWs & XHs are no longer family to each other, I was referring to a "legal" attachment. (For those of you who did not read that earlier thread of mine, I suggested we can become attached/bonded to others on as many as seven different levels: emotional, spiritual, legal, financial, sexual, geographical, and biological/parental. We do not necessarily become attached to others on all 7 dimensions and the intensity of the attachment may be differ, also). I believe it was KKNY who responded to the post with something along the lines of "when ex-spouses share children, there will always be a relationship between them. I agree. And I would hope for the sake of any shared children, the relationship would be cooperative and cordial.

It just strikes me as ironic (and somewhat contradictory) that some would deny the validity of the loving attachments that can and do exist between Stepparents and their stepchildren because of the absence of a biological bond but will vehemently insist that the bonds they have to the biological relatives of their former spouses remain valid and deserving of respect and recognition.

Because, after all, "blood ties have nothing to do with it."

I agree.