Why ask logic of folk that you know will never be logical? I just see them as trolls that shouldn't be fed.

Because it will prove interesting to see what they think.

I dont think its right.

Now, how many of you think its OK to sleep with a man still legally married to someone with whom he has children?

kkny, why is it okay to judge other people? No, I've never slept with any married man. Only with my 2 husbands. But my moral and religious codes don't allow me to judge other people.

in my life experience, married people seek extramarital affairs because they are unhappy with their marriage. the affair is merely the symptom of a troubled marriage. i also see that men feel more comfortable leaving a marriage if they already have another woman lined up.

i would never get involved with a married man. if they cheat on their wife, they will cheat on you.

Back on that old trick pony again huh KKNY? Isn't your "point" getting a little old?

Do you think it's fair to judge people who are doing the best they can for their children?

A homeless person? (They're doing the best they can too...)

Single mothers?

Sorry justnotmartha.... I'm just curious.

What relevance does your question have to JNM's query? It would seem your assumption is that SMs are always "TOW" and somehow responsible for the demise of a marriage. There is even a hint in your response that maybe some people deserve to be assaulted, especially if they are perceived to be "TOW."

I would suspect most second marriages are not to "TOW" or "TOM," for that matter. Unlike you, I cannot throw out statistics that may or may not be valid as I have not thoroughly researched this, but it makes sense to me that most individuals who have extramarital affairs resulting in the end of their marriage do not end up subsequently married to their lover. I would strongly suspect the affair partner ends up as the "transitional relationship," and most folks ultimately move on to find someone else with whom they make a long term commitment. While some SMs may be "TOW," not all SMs fall into this category.

Is it OK to assault someone? No. Is is OK to sleep with someone who is legally married to someone else? The answer to this is also no, whether there are children involved or not. I do not know the legal codes of all 50 states, but I would guess that while "adultery" may be a civil and/or criminal offense in some states, assault most certainly is.

SHe asked ONE question. Yet, it seems impossible to keep on topic.

This isn't about kkny's agenda or anyone else's... its one question:

"is acceptable for one person to hit another"

Come on, we're all better than this.

I think you are asking too much of them. They aren't going to provide an answer that might make the BM look bad or place the SM in a better light than a BM that was wrong. It goes against their agenda of proving that anyone, other than a first wife and BM, is wrong,

Ima,

That this has nothing to do with BM vs. SM... Regardless of the actual situation, she is not asking them to say BMs are bad. This question is about right or wrong. No matter who it is, its not right for someone to hit another person, ESPECIALLY if its their own children.

Its really hard to believe that everyone is grown on this forum.

End of Post.

I understand that, but in admitting that it's wrong to strike someone she would have to step down from her position from the other thread, that BM did something wrong by striking SM during an exchange. Instead, the SM was attacked for being there and nothing was noted on the BM's conduct of striking her, in fact it almost sounded like they think she got what she deserved.

That's all I meant by it.

ima,

I hear you. I'm just trying to figure out why its so hard for them.... well, i'm not trying to figure it out. I'm just sick of arguing with people who aren't worth arguing with... so i guess that's my fault.

"Please tell me when it is acceptable for one person to hit another"

Under the same circumstances that it is acceptable to laugh derisively at someone - and when would that be?

If you laugh at someone who is pointing a gun at you, it is wrong for them to shoot you, but you would still be rude, not to mention dead, and you would deserve a Darwin Award for stupidity.

It is never appropriate to laugh at or humiliate someone. It is irrelevant whether their response is appropriate or legal - I would not feel any sympathy for an adult who was taunting another.

TOS just proves what a whack job she is. TOS, are you shocked that your husband left you? She approves violence over logic. Don't feed this freak troll!

I know, even though BM could not be bothered with her daughter for months we should have consulted her on whether to take the bottle away from a 4 year old. Nevermind that pediatricians recommend it, nevermind that it promotes tooth decay. Nevermind that we had no way to contact her if we had wanted to. Perhaps we could have called the local bars and sleezy motels to see which one she was at, then we could interrupt her social life to see if she wanted to be included on decisions regarding her daughter. I know, maybe we could have put an ad in the paper to contact her, similar to what women have to do to find birth fathers when putting their baby up for adoption!!! How awful of us to make the decision to take a 4 year old off a bottle without her!! And then the nerve of me to get screamed at by a woman who has made it known that her daughter interrupts her social life and deal with it by laughing. Your so right KKNY and TOS, I had no right to laugh at the woman who did not know for 2 MONTHS that her daughter no longer needed a bottle. How dare I laugh at the lady who would rather party than accept her repsonsibility as a mother. How dare I laugh at the woman who willingly left her daughter, does not support her financially, emotionally, or any other way. How dare I do anything, I am just the person who shows my sd what a mother is supposed to do. Not yell, hit, and disappear. How dare I show her unconditional love and support, as well as help support her financially. Damn me for doing those things without consulting with the mother.

PS.. I KNOW THE DECIDING FACTOR ON MY WORTH IS DETERMINED BY IF I WAS THE OTHER WOMAN, WELL REST ASSURED I HAD NOT EVEN MET MY DH UNTIL THEY WERE NOT LONGER TOGETHER AND HE WAS LEFT RAISING THEIR DD ON HIS OWN. She had decided she would rather have a social life than a daughter, but I forgot that is okay because she gave birth right?

As I read old threads I see the same pattern tos and kkny, you both pick on sm's and defend dead beat bm's. For what reason? I am assuming because your ex's are in relationships and you are not happy with your lives and can not stand to see them happy. So, you come on here to vent your anger for them by projecting it on every sm here.

Well, I feel sorry for your unhappiness. I am very happy with my life. I love my family (dh, sd, dd) and would not trade them for anything. I can not imagine being as bitter and angry as you are. I really hope you eventually find peace and happiness in your lives.

TOS does a fine job of humiliating herself.

"I would not feel any sympathy for an adult who was taunting another."

TOS taunts the SM's here all the time and when I first read some of her remarks, I felt sorry for her. I thought, "what a miserable life she must have. How sad." But not anymore, this only proves that she is not deserving of even the least amount of pity. She is emptyhearted.

However, I do feel sympathy for her children. They have to live with her.

I have never taunted or laughed at anyone. Criticizing or arguing with another's statement is a completely different thing from taunting or laughing at someone. I do my best to criticize only what people are doing, rather than resorting to character assassination. I am not the poster who pretended to be someone else, so she could jeer at kkny, myself, and other biological mothers, embarrassing those who were actually serious posters (this was before you were here, imammommy, I think).

And no, I don't think my exH is happy, based on comments my children have made and on what he said to the counselor we saw together.

"How awful of us to make the decision"

Yes, because it is not YOUR decision to make. If the girl's father could not find the mother, after a reasonable effort was made, then he could make the decision, but I believe you said in an earlier post that YOU had convinced him to wean the girl.

BTW, pediatricians and doctors in family practice are not necessarily well-versed in nutritional issues. A doctor once advised me that my daughter who had just turned one should be consuming more cow's milk - that it was better for her than either breast milk or formula! I overheard another doctor telling a new mother that her 9 pound baby was too heavy to be breastfed successfully. There are still doctors out there who at the first little problem that crops up recommend that their patients stop breastfeeding. Doctors are the appropriate resource for medical issues, such as when your child has strep throat, but there is little training in nutrition in medical school. There are some doctors who are very knowledgeable in the area, but you can not assume that that is true of all pediatricians. LLL is a far better resource for information on infant and toddler nutrition.

Although it is true that falling asleep with a bottle of milk or formula is not good for your teeth, a simple solution is to put water in the bottle instead.

It is my decision to help make, along with my dh. I will help make all decisions for my sd. I am a bigger part than her mother, by her mothers choice. If I was a EOW stepmother then things would be different. But, the bm is not even an EOW weekend bm, she is more like a one night every few months bm. Hardly gives her the right to make decisions. Sorry, you can keep up with this ridiculous argument but you are being an idiot. I am not some evil person, I am the person who is playing the bm since she has chosen not to do her part. I am the female who is there for my sd, children need love and support. Girls need a mother and I have had to become that for my sd, since her mom made the decision not to do her part. Is that my fault? Hardly! I am not going to sit back and pretend that I should not have anything to do with sd. I treat her as my own child and along with that comes my right to help make decisions regarding her well being. And sorry you do not agree, but a year old no longer "needs" a bottle and there are no benefits to a 4 year old drinking from a bottle if there is not some medical necessity to do so. My sd drank from a cup quite fine and had no problems making the switch. How would you like her to drink in preschool if she could not drink from cups? Should she have brought a bottle to preschool?

"Yes, because it is not YOUR decision to make. If the girl's father could not find the mother, after a reasonable effort was made, then he could make the decision,"

When he agrees, it's HIS decision. Whether she "convinced" him or "suggested" it and he agreed, then it becomes his decision. He has the right to say no and if she goes against him, then perhaps she's wrong, but then again, the primary caregiver is the one making the decision. Or should foster parents consult the bio's?

You're funny you talk about your ex like he was the best father in the world... how many times was he nominated by the way???

Promoted breast feeding, read stories every night, was an active participant in their "young years", went to all their games, took them to drs. appts., whatever they needed he was right there,would talk to your pre-teen daughters about puberty, never a harsh word for his children, but your children speak harshly to you and to him.. but 9 years ago he up and left you and the kids... and didn't look back. So really a non-issue for you.

You wouldn't keep him from talking on the phone to your children or make him wait on the porch but he doesn't call or come by so really a non-issue for you...

SM has no contact with your children... so again really a non-issue for you..

Out of your 6 children he only contacts one and its on a very limited basis. He is an active participant in their upbringing ???? I am sure he would love having his children do laundry at midnight and swearing/calling him names.

I will say this again as far as drs. appts. ... its not like we are taking them to appointments and giving permission for surgeries with out consulting our spouses. You wouldn't in an "intact" family. If the kids need something other than normal routine stuff of course you would contact the parents and ask/tell them what is going on. Taking them to an appt is not a big deal ... I am not consenting to plastic surgery... I am consenting to have their weight, height, eyes, ears, checked to make sure their bodies are healthy. I wouldn't consent to surgery on my BC with out calling their dad to let him know what is going on ... why wouldn't I call hubby and mom and let them know what is going on to make that decision.

As far as weaning a child at the age of 4... most by that age are only on the bottle for security its a constant in their lives has been since day one most of the time. Unless they were breastfed and if a mom breastfed I doubt she would be dropping her child off with ex and saying oh well the kid can go on a bottle now. That would require a mom to have actually cared about someone besides herself. Does it really matter who convinced who to get a 4 yr old off of a bottle ... something that needed to be done sooner or later with or with out consulting the NCP, children don't go to school on a bottle unless it is medically needed... failure to thrive... they certainly don't go to college with a bottle ...

Did you "consult" your ex when it was time to take your children off the breast? or you just did it? did you have a family meeting over it? Did you consult ex when it was time to decide if your menstruating daughters should use a pad or tampon? Did you wait until he showed up or called to ask him? Did you ask him if it was ok to give your children any form of birth control? the pill, condoms? or you just did it because it needed to be done?

Let me work some math out in my head... ex has been married for 9 years... you have refered to your youngest at a pre-teen...making that child at most 12... so guessing thats the child with the disability.... so when the going got rough ex went to work and hooked up with a woman who has more money...

You were married for over 20 years left 9 years ago ... 29 lets just say you got married at 20 thats 49 but you have said you are older than that ... so you had your last child when you were 50? Guessing we could lecture you on why you shouldn't have children at an older age. Why its wrong to be selfish to want children no matter how old you are ... So that when your children do reach the age of 18 you are already retired. And by the time any grandchildren could/would be born you would be too old (or dead) to participate in their lives.

Before you jump down a non-parents action of taking a bottle away from a 4 yr old. really should look in your own home.

And yes mom was wrong for slapping the SM end of story... is she going to slap the 4 yr old for laughing at her? If mom was the one laughing at SM and SM slapped mom that would be ok because mom humiliated her by laughing at her?

Cuddlepp,

TOSs husband left her after 25 years. My guess is you havent been married that long. When you have, you might see things differently. My husband left me after 25 years also.

Ima,

As to "should foster parents consult the bios". Unless this is a very unusual situation, mom has not given up custody as in a foster situation. Again, maybe we should just retitle this board,

Stepmoms married to CPs.

I see SMs constantly giving advice that SMs should or do have rights, and only in very limited situations do I beleive that is or should be the answer.

"The Stepfamily
This is the spot for those in stepfamilies to offer each other advice on dealing with the problems that may occur--come on, there's bound to be one or two."

Here's the title and description of the board. Perhaps you'd like to change it to:

"This is the spot for those in stepfamilies to get advice from bio parents that have never been a step parent but want to tell you how to do it and why all the problems are YOUR fault."

When you and TOS can offer useful advice, instead of judgmental BS and blaming everything that is wrong on the step parent, then maybe someone will listen. I'm sure there are step parents that resent the first family existing... I'm sure there are step parents that only do things for the child to look good to their spouse, I'm sure there are step parents with ulterior motives, but when you sink to defending the actions of deadbeat parents, as TOS does, then it only makes you look bitter, jealous, and angry. Do you really think anyone is going to take you seriously?

and a mom (or dad) that walks out and doesn't call or have contact for months at a time is a worse parent than one that gives up custody to a foster family. At least the parent that gives up a child, usually does it because they know they can't be a good parent to the child and are thinking of the child's best interest. A person that just walks out without looking back doesn't even care enough to do that, they only care about themselves. and some do so whether the other parent is prepared for it or not. they have no regard for their child's well being.

"Let me work some math out in my head".

Cawfe, I've been reading and not posting recently because of the TOS and KKNY mantra here, but I agree - I can't work out the math, either.

Let's also add to the equation that TOS has said she knew her ex DH for five years before she married him and that he was already a divorced man by the time she married him.

So, it could be she was a teenager dating a divorced or married man, or she was a mature, older woman who had the good sense to date a man for five years and do her research before marrying him. In that case, she must be in medical history books for giving birth after menopause.

Okay - I had a few minutes and I've done the math.
TOS has stated in a post that she was slightly younger than another poster (who was 43) when she had her youngest child. From this, it is safe to say TOS was around 42 when her youngest child was born.

In May of 2007, TOS stated her youngest is not yet a teenager. So, let's assume that child is now 12. That would make TOS around 54 years old right now.

TOS has stated she has been divorced for 9 years. That would make her 45 when she became divorced. She has stated she was married for 25 years before the divorce.

Subtract 25 years from 45 and that would make TOS 20 years old when she married.

But wait! TOS has stated she knew ex DH for five years before they married. Remember, she did her "research"
and chided SM's for "jumping" into marriage without having done theirs. She has also said he was divorced before he married her.

So, if we subtract five years off TOS's estimated age at marriage, she was approximately 15 years old when she met her ex DH. But was he married or divorced when she met him?

June,

Maybe they were both teenagers. I dont recall this being TOSs Xs second marriage.

Not everyone marrys a man who was married before. I didnt.

KKNY:

Posted by theotherside (My Page) on Wed, Nov 28, 07 at 17:35

imamommy,
Actually, my H, who had been very briefly married (no children) when he was very young volunteered to show me his divorce papers. They were available for me to look at, at any time, during the next quarter of a century (not that I felt the need to look at them more than once). I probably would have done a background check had the Internet been available back then. If I were to date anyone now, I would welcome a background check. I have nothing to hide.

Boy, some people have a lot of time on their hands. No, actually I said we were together for 25 years, unless there is a typo somewhere. We were married for over 20 years. I have not been divorced for 9 years - I said he left about 9 years ago. The divorce process takes a long time in my state when you have children. I met my H when I was 20. He is older than I, he had married quite young, and his divorce had been final for a couple of years.

"Did you "consult" your ex when it was time to take your children off the breast? or you just did it?

Of course I consulted him. And he wasn't my exH then.

Did you consult ex when it was time to decide if your menstruating daughters should use a pad or tampon?
That's their decision, not mine or his.

Did you ask him if it was ok to give your children any form of birth control? the pill, condoms? or you just did it because it needed to be done?"
That would be their decision as well. They weren't allowed to date when they were young teens, too young to get to a doctor on their own.

"Promoted breast feeding, read stories every night, was an active participant in their "young years", went to all their games, took them to drs. appts., whatever they needed he was right there,"

Yep, pretty much - except he didn't go to "all" their games, especially since the kids were not really into sports.

I don't care how you raise your own children. Assuming we are not talking about pedophiles or parents who beat their children, parents get to decide how to raise their own children, in consultation with each other. It is no one else's business - not stepparents, teachers, doctors, social workers, in-laws, or the neighbor down the street. Even if a mother or father is not a great parent, they are still almost always the best parent for THEIR child.

I had a professor once (very well known in the field and very very knowledgable and very old), he had this mantra: remember that parents are rasing their children the best they know and the best they can. It might look to you that they do not do as good of a job as you would, but they are the PARENTS who want the best for their children even if you think that their best is not good enough. I always try to remember it. Of course we are not talking about severe cases of pedophilia or serious abuse.

Obviously your not speaking about my sd's situation. Her mother is not raising her, she chose to check out quite a while ago. Although she is given every opportunity to be a part of her dd's life she choses not to be involved over and over again. So, when my dh needs help making a decision regarding my sd he naturally comes to me. Why? Because I am there 24/7. Her "mom" is unreachable most of the time, and senseless when she is reachable! So, in the best interests of my sd decisions are not left to her bm, a woman whose main decisions are what bar to go to or what man to go home with that night. She has no clue what goes on in her daughters life (i.e. did not know for 2 months about her daughter not being on a bottle). If you asked her what grade my sd was in I doubt she could tell you. If you asked her what foods my sd enjoyed she would have no clue. Ask her who dd's best friends are and she would not know. Ask her when the last time her dd had to go to the doctor was and she would be clueless.

SOME MOM! And you think she is best equipped to make decisions regarding "her" child?

This mom is obviously awful, big time. But if the mom checked out, there is still dad in existance. When i said parents, i meant parents not just mom. If dad is not there either, then somebody else adopts, fosters or become a guardian for a child. And then they are the ones to decide. Also when I think that my X is not being the best father he could and it effects DD, (not anybody else) I tell him that. I would not appreciate anyone else to make a mockery of his parenting especially in front of DD.

finedreams,

"Also when I think that my X is not being the best father he could and it effects DD, (not anybody else) I tell him that. I would not appreciate anyone else to make a mockery of his parenting especially in front of DD."

well said

What the professor said is very idealistic, but sadly there are just too many examples that prove his statement is an over-generalization.

While there are many examples of wonderful parents, there are also many examples of parents, both mothers and fathers, who cannot be good parents, for a variety of reasons.

Some are too immature or too self-absorbed to care for a child. Some are addicted to one or more substances and they crash and then chase their next high. Some have personality disorders that prevent them from nurturing a child. And some have a combination of all of the above.

That is why those who fit this description do not have custody of their children.
And thank God for the SM's who have stepped up to the plate to try to do the right thing by their stepchildren. They usually don't get a thank you from anyone, but they do it anyway because it is the right thing to do.

"Of course we are not talking about severe cases of pedophilia or serious abuse."

Is there such a thing as a non-severe case of pedophilia or non-serious abuse?

I don't think anyone believes it's ok, I think they just don't care. A lot of people just live for the moment and never worry about repercussions.

june

I typed in a hurry: I meant "severe cases like pedophilia".

When it comes to "serious abuse".. I think that spanking or yelling is abusive beahvior. But I do not think that if it happens ocassionally, it is serious enough to consider a person unfit parent who needs to be reported to PS. There are serious cases of abuse that go beyond spanking or yelling. Notion of abuse is sometimes subjective. Some of the parenting described in this forum sounds abusive to me, both stepparenting and bioparenting. But i realize that it is not serious enough to make radical conclusions. That's what I meant.